BotoxAgent
Member
This does not bode well for the Division or Witcher.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Phil Harrison responds to eSRAM sze, "Clearly not the case, look at Forza 5"
- Thread starter Elginer
- Start date
Eh...they gave up a LOT to hit 1080p in Forza, I'd say. They utilize an outdated lighting model, very low quality AA, and absolutely no AF.
Again, though, the PS3 GT games have a LOT of rough edges all throughout.
GT5 and 6 have a lot of rough points, no doubt, but that's a bit unfair simply because that car looks as it does as a result of man power limitations rather than hardware. That is simply a PS2 asset included in the game. The premium cars are obviously much more detailed.It's pretty easy to pick out some rough points from racing games for example..
Again, though, the PS3 GT games have a LOT of rough edges all throughout.
phosphor112
Banned
It's pretty easy to pick out some rough points from racing games for example..
It's also easy to pick old pictures from older games, that were done before they were patched.
But let's keep the FM vs GT stuff here:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=687291
I fundamentally disagree that Tomb Raider is a show case for next-gen visuals.
A game that was created with a baseline of 480MB of memory for systems that are 8 and 9 years old getting a facelift does not a next-gen game make.
But others are free to disagree, which is why we have so many people saying PC ports are next-gen which I don't agree with. But to be fair, the TR Definitive Edition is more than just a PC port. It has lots of improved stuff that you normally don't get in a PC port. It's still a based around a 360/PS3 game however.
Sakura
Member
I'm pretty sure the difference between Tomb Raider on the PS4 and XBO is more than just the framerate.
Should? I don't think they can. Hardware has to be finalized and closed.
Nope. Games running better on a newer model of a console would cause a shitstorm, and since the OS is native 1080p the eSRAM wouldn't make a difference outside of games.
Sinfamy
Member
Sadly no matter how many particle effects or polish you add, it will always look worse than running at native resolution.
Try this in any game, take Battlefield 4 for example.
1st test scenario:
Settings on all High @ 1920 x 1080
2nd test scenario:
Settings on all Ultra @ 1280 x 720
Tell me which one looks prettier.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=767579&highlight=
Night Angel
Member
Yeah, this seems like thread whining and/or general whining. If this was a dead horse, MS would stop bringing this idiotic shit up.
Should we stop having opinions on what comes out of the MS camp because it's all bullshit, or should we pick it apart as the bullshit it is like we do for any other company? Get mad at MS for how often they obfuscate/lie to us if you're tired of seeing these threads, don't get mad at us for calling them out.
ReturnOfTheRAT
Member
LittleJohnny
Banned
There's nothing outdated about the lighting model, it not only makes sense performance wise, but will continue to be commonly used this generation. That's not to say that real time global illumination isn't better, but Turn 10s priority was 60fps for a launch game, and not even PS4 was hitting a solid 30 using RTGI. I'd be curious to see how Forza Horizon turns out, it should be a good match compare against Drive Club since both are out of the launch pressure and will be seeking more advanced lighting.
Xenon
Member
You're using a port of a game that was designed around ~8 year old consoles as a basis for the standard of the now current gen gaming.
The point of the persons Twitter question was "Rebellion says that it's difficult to render games at 1080p in a reasonably playable way because of the ESRAM" and he took it as the literal "XBONE can't do 1080p???" which is a dumb question. A raspberry pi could output at 1080p, it doesn't really mean anything. The real question that was being asked was sidestepped, ignored, then he threw up an answer to a bad question.
It's nice when console games target 30fps then come to PC because then you get the benefits of all the visual goodies they pumped in as well as higher framerates. Have your cake and eat it too!
phosphor112
Banned
Nothing outdated about the lighting? It's faked as all to hell.
http://youtu.be/svcd-vDiao0
The rail on the left is about the same height as the car. The shadow from the rail is casting out about 10+ feet out. How the FUCK is it casting on TOP of the car? No other racing franchise uses lighting like this. No one is talking about global illumination. We're talking about dynamic lights. GI is barely done on PC's because of how much power it requires, but dynamic lights is doable. Almost every PS3 exclusive has had it and almost every major multiplat has had it. Why can't Forza manage 1080p graphics at 60fps with dynamic lights?
I might argue for AC4 over Tomb Raider.
IAmRandom31
Banned
Because that one 1080p x 60fps game looked like it was straight out of 2008. Seeing Forza 5 love is like watching a PC game from around that era, except with way worse jaggies.
I mean Call of Duty visually looks like ass, still runs at 720p on the X1 with aliasing issues. It is not like they are point up the MSAA and adding a whole bunch of cool post processing stuff or enhacing the texture fidelity while at 720p. Nah they are doing it just to keep the frame rate high and still have to make compromises on the IQ. It is insanity for that to occur on a 500$ new piece of console hardware. We are at the beginning of a 5-6 year cycle here, not at the end when the PC ports have to be downgraded because they are just miles ahead of what consoles are capable of like last gen. Nah this is occurring from the jump. There is no magical process here that will make the X1 60% more powerful all of a sudden. The X1 is a low end PC with some embedded RAM. Nothing needing rocket science there.
Development teams Im sure are pushing the hell out of the system but when you have limits, you have limits. Go read any PC tech paper on 1080p GPUs and you will read something similar everywhere.
32 rendering processors. That is what AMD puts into any card that is going to be gaming at 1080p as a standard. Quite easy to determine why that is. The larger the resolution of the image, the more data needs to be pushed into that image. The more processors you have rendering that data, the faster you can finish the frame and get it into the screen. For 1080p AMD decided that 32 is what is needed.
The X1 only has 16 rendering processors. So it is creating the image half as fast as the PS4. You can send the same data for rendering to both the PS4 and X1 over the same pipelines and the PS4 each and every time will have the image into the screen twice as fast. Hence the 1080p vs 720p issue with the same games like Call of Duty. Same visual effects, same data, PS4 1080p / x1 720p.
1080p = 2x the pixels as 720p ( 2.25x really ).
32 ROPs is 2x the rendering capability of 16 ROPS. This one can render at 1080p at 60 and the other 720p at 60. It is that simple.
There is no wizardry that will make up for this.
Speaking strictly as an XB1 player:
Max Curse Of Brotherhood
AC4
Tomb Raider
Have all been amazing graphically and serve as showcases for next-gen visuals IMO. The only other XB1 game I've played so far is Lococycle and that has lol-worthy graphics (amazingly funny game though, I love Twisted Pixel humour).
Though I do admit that the water and rain effects in AC4 alone make me say "Raise a glass, neogaf, to next-gen." And yes I'm well aware that PS4 has better looking versions of Tomb Raider and AC4. I still say wow.
foolishoptimist
Member
Not a racing game player but I think high resolution 2D cutouts look better than... This.
.
I don't have GT6, but I imagine these crowds are animated.
What do the crowds look like in Forza when you have to slow right down for a hairpin?
famousmortimer
Banned
I dig forza 5 but this a shot I took the day I got it. Look at that crowd, the grass behind them and those freaking trees!
SwiftDeath
Member
How's the anti-aliasing on Forza, Phil? Or the lighting solution for that matter.
Seriously the ESram solution has played out exactly as tim lottes predicted it would
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=46918195
This was late 2012 too btw
Seriously the ESram solution has played out exactly as tim lottes predicted it would
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=46918195
Tim Lottes said:
This was late 2012 too btw
Given how rudimentary TitanFall looks graphics wise, the XB1 simply shouldn't struggle with the game at all. If it had decent AA and effects, then I would expect 720p. But it looks like a 360 game in many respects. The XB1 is simply not capable of 1080p unless you sacrifice things.
Both trees and crowd are straight out of Links 2004 for the OG Xbox.
Ol No Bones
Banned
The guy asked him a question about whether the Xbox One could output 1080p and Phil rightly pointed out that it can and gave the example of forza 5. I don't see the problem. This had nothing to do with X1 versus PS4 and no company is going to purposefully indicate that they have inferior hardware. The people asking them to come out and say the ps4 is more powerful are irrational. Why would they say that? We already have games in 1080p on the X1. The devs have to compromise some effects to get 1080p on either system but the Xbox has to compromise more in every way because the PS4 is more powerful all around. Xbox one devs are more likely to keep the resolution at 720p to have parity of effects. All that being said, Phil Harrison did not say anything worth criticism that I can tell. Am I missing something Gaf?
Hey, decided I'd help you out and do this for you.
From left to right, as follows, we have:
- Battlefield 4 on Ultra downsampled from 4K to 1080p
- Battlefield 4 on Ultra rendering at native 1080p
- Battlefield 4 on Ultra upscaled from 720p to 1080p
- Battlefield 4 on Ultra upscaled from 540p to 1080p
- Battlefield 4 on Ultra upscaled from 270p to 1080p
All of the HUDs are rendering at native 1080p, just like the Xbox One does.
I said _almost_ the same thing. The response was that Phil Harrison should have ignored the tweet. (>0_0)>
Angelus Errare
Banned
The 720p to 1080p looks best because of the blur. Gives it a cinematic feel make it 24fps and you have true gaming immersion. The rest look too angular and clinical.
/s
The issue is he shouldn't have even answered this question. Yes, its capable of 1080p. But the question is getting at the struggles (or inability in some cases) to reach 1080p when other platforms are having no such issues (due to superior hardware).
Gaf takes issue when they try and disguise any hardware disadvantage. IMO, and mentioned by others in this thread, MS just needs to ignore tweets like this and steer the conversation to content and unique features.
LittleJohnny
Banned
I'm speaking more about the old tired jokes. Still, what response are you expecting? Is ESRAM a problem for Xbox One being able to achieve 1080p with next gen visuals? Do you really believe that the answer is YES? Maybe he should've gone with a different game as an example, but last I checked NBA 2k14 looks visually amazing and it's 1080p 60fps, Need for Speed Rivals is also very much next gen and 1080p, and imo Tomb Raider is also next gen worthy. We're talking first gen games here too. If Forza Horizon and Halo 5 still look disappointing, then you can say that ESRAM is too small, but from what I've seen, the Xbone architecture as a whole is balanced, it just happens to be less powerful than the PS4, however DDR3 + ESRAM is adequate for a 12CU unit GPU with only 16 ROPs.
Warm Machine
Member
Because the direct light would have to render the environment into its cascades instead of just the cars which creates a much larger rendering overhead, especially in forward rendering. I don't think this is worth how angry you seem to be getting about it. This shadow trick has been around since what seems like forever when dealing with light maps.
They should be able to get cascaded shadows into that engine at that framerate on that hardware. Many 360 games have them. I really think MS is just incredibly late with all of their tools and drivers and trying to overcome the hardware architecture simultaneously. Turn 10 probably hit some frame drop issue and dialed back to a safe and known approach that have them their framerate back.
We will not see any serious change for at least another 10 months. Software like this just doesn't appear and neither do the improvements. It takes a holistic approach with updated tech and best practices wrapped into a game project developement ready to accept them. My guess is E3 2016 you will see some very impressive Xbox One games.
I dig forza 5 but this a shot I took the day I got it. Look at that crowd, the grass behind them and those freaking trees!
Honestly, the crowd, trees, lighting and some of the shaders, all look better in...certain...older generation, pseudo 1080p/60fps games...
I do however think that launch games are by no means a reliable gauge to judge a consoles performance. So bring on Forza 6.
The first two look too video gamey. I want my war games to look like I have the Afghan sand in my eyes!
drugstore_cowboy
Member
There's a few animated ones in Forza, not many though.
The only time you really get close to them is on Prague, the proper race tracks have the crowds set farther back.
Not that it actually matters but Forza 4 (I don't remember if 3 also) have some time of the day options.
phosphor112
Banned
I dig forza 5 but this a shot I took the day I got it. Look at that crowd, the grass behind them and those freaking trees!
Lol, people hated on the trees in GT. It's sad those trees look better than the crowd.
Okay, ignore tweets, but "steer the conversation to content and unique features"? When should Phil do this? One week from now? Two weeks from now? After an acceptable amount of dust has settled after that tweet was dropped?
Why would I not be surprised if "steering the conversation to content and unique features" would be seen as a scummy PR tactic?
LittleJohnny
Banned
May not have to wait that long, I'm sure Forza Horizon will see a sizeable upgrade, just removing the pressure of making launch should be significant enough.
PS. I don't see what the big issue is with the trees.
Name two.
Alternatively, name one that is directly game-related.
Microsoft needs to stay defensive about their console as a games machine because despite their hilarious marketing to the contrary it really is more or less a games machine that does double-duty as an inferior-to-PS3 streaming media box. Even on this forum, which is among the more generally savvy gaming communities, there are many people who eat the marketing shit up and still believe in secret sauce, unlocking "potential", SDKs fixing things, parity, whatever. Go look at sites like IGN or Youtube and you'll find that a large portion of the gaming community buys into bullshit.
You never, ever, concede anything to a competitor. When the F-150 and Ram had heated steering wheels and box steps GM marketed options like that as being unmanly bullshit for poseurs, not realtruck users. Now GM offers them on their latest generation. Today, Ford has moved to an all-aluminum body on the F-150 which is a tremendous advantage to the consumer and GM is marketing their steel truck boxes as being the greatest, strongest, baddest-ass shit on the market since only steel is good enough for a real truck.
Until next generation when they move to aluminum.
This isn't specific to video games, it's basic marketing, and for all the hilarious fuckups that Microsoft has made (And is making) this isn't one of them.
Cave Johnson
Member
By pointing out Forza 5 as an example of 1080p/60fps, are we going to see future X1 titles to make such a compromise just so they can wave their "We-can-do-it-too" flags?
Night Angel
Member
Okay. Not sure how you drew that conclusion, seeing as the console has trouble hitting 1080p with effects most of us have come to expect from new games. The games we've seen so far on the XB1 have almost universally had to make some sacrifice to reach 1080p (the ones that tried at all in the first place, that is). Maybe the console is "balanced" (whatever the fuck that means), but it is "balanced" to achieve mediocre results if the current state of its multiplats and 1080p exclusives are anything to go by. Seems like the Penello Spin got to you, man.
No, you're not missing anything. Silly as usual.
I came into the thread to see if nibs took this chance to take a shot at Forza. Didn't take long lol.
Yes, the X1 can output 1080p. Will it often have lower native res games? Yes
People better get use to that this gen. To push "graphics" these consoles will drop either res or frames.
Keep putting out a diverse, enjoyable, game library Microsoft. Ignore the troll/bait posts/tweets.
I still laugh at forza trollers..
you dont like the 2d crowd? what a pitty there are 400.000 of these in every track. I think it makes the game unbearable to you, so why the fuck bother trolling it every chance you get?
will it be like last generation, when more or less the same crowd trolled forza 2/360 and what they had in retort was ....gt4/ps2?
the fuck with this shit every generation...
you dont like the 2d crowd? what a pitty there are 400.000 of these in every track. I think it makes the game unbearable to you, so why the fuck bother trolling it every chance you get?
will it be like last generation, when more or less the same crowd trolled forza 2/360 and what they had in retort was ....gt4/ps2?
the fuck with this shit every generation...
I have no doubt that some would say that. Doesn't matter, as soon as possible they should stop randomly talking about hardware/technical performance specs because it gets picked apart every time they mention anything.
There is no need to address tweets like this. If in an actual interview this question came up, sure they would have to say something along these lines, but they should avoid talking resolutions & framerates because the community is keen to hang them by their words right now.
I would like to see them brush off these questions saying that the Xbox One experience is next-gen and will only get better as time goes on. They could just say that the visual qualities of the games speak for themselves. This would then let everyone obsess over the latest DigitalFoundry analysis instead of MS Rep's twitter feeds.
I'm so sick and tired of this shitty 1080p/60 discussions. Ppl just face it that the XB1 is weaker than the PS4 hardware-wise, but honestly who cares? I just want to have the best possible experience on the XB1 and I'm was thrilled with Forza 5, Tomb Raider: DE and Kinect Sports so far in terms of 1080p. Ryse topped them all and is just 900p. So what? As long as the overall artistic style, effects and assets are top-notch I don't care about resolution or fps (as long as they meet a minimum requirement which is 720p/30). When the game is fun and looks overall awesome, the rest is just fiddling around IMHO.
Similar threads
- Locked