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[buenoblue]

After reading all these email threads about Microsoft not one mentions " hey, maybe we should make our games great and have a steady flow of amazing titles. Because that is the most important thing"

Its become obvious that this doesn't even occur to Microsoft. Instead it's who can we buy and what shortcuts can we take to destroy Sony.

Just put all your resources into making good fucking games you morons.

 

[Blood Borne]

Same old excuses.

It's been clear as day what Xbox has planned here.

The clear and present danger GamePass poses to traditional gaming can't be overstated.

They want to turn GamePass into Netflix, raise the price, lower the cost of content, be platform agnostic.

The problem is Sony and Nintendo are in their way, particularly Sony. They know they've lost the "console war" and they bet big on xCloud and GamePass instead. It's the reason why they raised prices on GamePass on Xbox but not PC. Ultimately, they want more adoption on PC and Mobile. Xbox is a means to an end for Microsoft.

Sony knows the same thing, but their strategy is still firmly rooted in traditional gaming (for now), but their big GaaS push is because of games like Fortnite, GTA Online, and Red Dead Online.

Mobile is eating their lunch and console is a small crumb of the overall cookie. The free ride for GamePass on console is slowly coming to an end and Xbox fans will slowly but surely realize that. Right now they're trying to boil the frog, which is what you have to do with subscription services. Look at Netflix they've raised prices about as much as they can, so what did they do, they went after password sharers with the belief that it would increase subscribers and at least in the short term they were right.

Nice analysis

 

[balls of snow]

This cant be true, can it? Its ridiculously sentenced. "Close all the XBOX stuff"? I find it hard to believe this was written by the management team.

They only cared as long as they get the money flowing, engagement matrixes baby. What, did you think what that a.i named Sarah bond said during their showcase was true. They would close shop on xbox in a heartbeat if the opportunity was there to one up apple in the mobile arena.

 

[Aguero9320]

People are really getting crazy around these emails. These were discussions on things that could happen or not. Don't you have discussions like these in real life ? At work ? There is always a lot of ways to do things, but you only ever decide to go with one.

Some of these takes on here are just opportunistic, verging on trolling (being kind), the others must be from people who’ve never had any decision making authority in a real business.

It’s incumbent on leadership to approach a problem/issue/opportunity from all angles, and leadership teams are supposed to debate and discuss all possibilities amongst themselves, even crazy ones if they’re smart, then pick the best one in their opinion. If someone says ‘we should shut Xbox down’ in 2019, then in 2023 they haven’t shut Xbox down it’s safe to assume that wasn’t decided to be the way. How is that hard?

Equally, these people are human and suffer from daily frustrations/boredom/hubris/overexcitement etc and shocker say things that aren’t their die on this hill opinions in the moment. It’s why email discovery in a court case is almost never an actual ‘smoking gun’. I’ve been through it several times, and the first time they pulled up an email where I said something I probably shouldn’t have I was mortified, but it was never even used in the actual findings, even by a very hostile set of opposition lawyers, because they already know it’s not worth the paper it’s written on in legal terms - actions, not words are what they need to make their case. It’s why no one cares if Matt Booty one day overstates his own import and says he’s going to spend someone in to oblivion, or the Sony guy says he’s going to kill Microsoft (was that a threat of violence? Did they need protection? Surely if it’s stated it must be literally the truth?)

I have learned though to make my emails an exercise in banality for any poor lawyer tasked with ever searching through them in the future, and I’m sure the Microsoft guys are going to do the same after this.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

My takeaway from Phil's latest interviews and all these emails is that as the leader of Xbox he's just unfocused.

Their Xbox hardware business is cratering (in large part because of poor leadership on their software front) and instead of being focused on getting Xbox hardware sales and first-party software development back on track, he's looking at everything else under the sun outside of their core console gaming business: e.g. GamePass, cloud, mobile, buying up publishers to starve the competition of content, wanting gamers to sell their PS5s, Amazon and Google, Sony's 30% platform royalty, Playstation Project Q, next-gen consoles in 2028....

He's a lead weight on the Xbox leadership. He needs to go. Matt Booty too.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Nice analysis

One thing I'll add to it is take a look at Warner Bros. They wanted to push HBO Max so they were doing day and date releasing on HBO Max during the pandemic. Not only did this piss off directors, but it was massively eating into their profits.

It wasn't just the pandemic easing that changed their mind, but they were financially forced to do it.

Microsoft will stop doing day and date on GamePass eventually, and they might even stop releasing on PC day and date depending on their console strategy going forward.

Their worst nightmare is someone playing Starfield for 10 dollars on PC and then buggering off after a month rather than Sony's model of them buying it for 70 dollars. That isn't sustainable. That's a MASSIVE loss. You haven't brought them into your ecosystem at all so there is no future reward of royalties or loyalty to GamePass.

I'd love to see the numbers but I bet the turnover for GP on PC is double that of Xbox.

 

[balls of snow]

BobbyK is doing this at Activision....? What

Cod mobile. Email was 2019, so lines up with when cod mobile first launched.

 

[mansoor1980]

WTF Phil is insane confirmed

 

[Loxus]

Phil Spencer maybe working towards the contents of that email as we speak.

 

[VAVA Mk2]

I don’t understand that they don’t understand that most Apple iPhone owners are owning iPhone to be far away from them. MS is hated in the mobile space where they lost on both mobile and tablet. I don’t get that don’t get it.

Sony had some success in the mobile industry: the Xperia Z phone and tabs were great. Now they are doing there own thing and are killing it with their camera on both their phone and iPhone. MS has nothing like that.

LOL no they didn't. Sony has not changed much about their mobile devices in years. They overcharge and do not really market them well. They make awesome camera sensors that other OEMs use, but their own phones have not been a real hit. Sony makes its money mostly from PlayStation and selling camera sensors to other phone OEMs.

 

[nightmare-slain]

People ignoring context and seeing what they want to see so it fits their closed mind narrative.

There is no way Xbox would shut down to start up a mobile game company lol.

 

[rickybooby87]

I've already said that the Xbox console hardware division is in its last days, and Xbox, as we know it, is already changing. My prediction/theory is on record here.

Agreed, anytime someone utters the word "3P Publisher" people lose their minds, even a blind person can see Xbox is looking for the door on their hardware division.

 

[nightmare-slain]

I've already said that the Xbox console hardware division is in its last days, and Xbox, as we know it, is already changing. My prediction/theory is on record here.

It would suck if Microsoft left. Sony would be left to do what they want. $600 consoles, $80-90 games, you name it.

Hopefully if Microsoft do leave then Apple come in to replace them. Nintendo kinda do their own thing so you can't really compare them to MS/Sony. Sony as the only real option in the console market would fucking suck and I would never buy another console again.

For people who think I'm joking, look at the pc GPU market. AMD can't compete with them and Nvidia can basically do whatever the fuck they want. $1400 gpus? high end cards with only 8GB ram? competition is good.

You can even look at PC cpus <2017. Intel were in charge because AMD couldn't compete. If AMD hadn't released Ryzen we'd probably still all be using 4 core intel cpus on 14nm.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Agreed, anytime someone utters the word "3P Publisher" people lose their minds, even a blind person can see Xbox is looking for the door on their hardware division.

Yep, unless they are able to turn the ship dramatically, the writing has been on the wall. Moreover, their leadership's mindset and vision also aligns with a reality that isn't about consoles. It has been so for years now.

 

[Pelta88]

We are in the endgame now.

I kinda hope Microsoft gets Activision. This is some truly sad shit. Mismanagement of epic proportions. Incompetence at every level.

They refuse to be a leader in gaming. They refuse to go build something great.

 

[Ronin_7]

Microsoft wants to leverage ABK into Mobile. They will join the fight against Google and Apple in terms of getting sales on Android and iPhone without going through their appstore.

Eventually, they'll lose these cases because they're complete monopolies. That will open the door for Microsoft if they own gaming enough to get revenue from mobile, PC, and console and eventually have streaming come online.

Bruh Microsoft has zero chance of competing against Apple or Google, those lads are in a whole different level.

That Microsoft Store will fail harder than Windows Phone ever did.

 

[Heisenberg007]

It would suck if Microsoft left. Sony would be left to do what they want. $600 consoles, $80-90 games, you name it.

Hopefully if Microsoft do leave then Apple come in to replace them. Nintendo kinda do their own thing so you can't really compare them to MS/Sony. Sony as the only real option in the console market would fucking suck and I would never buy another console again.

If Xbox can right its ship, it can be a fine competitor. If Xbox bails out, I'd appreciate Apple joining the party. They can create good content, and their hardware -- while expensive -- are top-notch.

 

[RAIDEN1]

Make gaming great again! Instead all it seems to be about these days is how many C.O.Ds can be released and how many remasters can be done for the Last of Us...On a separate note I can't see Apple joining in on the console band-wagon, for more than 30 years they have avoided it and have not regretted it since the Apple Pippin days....somehow thinking Apple will give Sony a fight for their lives is wishful thinking..

 

[jroc74]

People ignoring context and seeing what they want to see so it fits their closed mind narrative.

There is no way Xbox would shut down to start up a mobile game company lol.

I mean.....remember one time Phil had to convince his boss to keep the Xbox division. Enter Game Pass.

Whatever happens in the future is whatever, but its still an idea that he threw out there.

 

[nightmare-slain]

If Xbox can right its ship, it can be a fine competitor. If Xbox bails out, I'd appreciate Apple joining the party. They can create good content, and their hardware -- while expensive -- are top-notch.

I could see Microsoft going all in on services and ditching hardware but I really don't want to that happen because Sony would have complete control over the console market. Even if you're a die hard Sony fan then you shouldn't want that... unless you are happy throwing money to Sony and being treated like shit. I'm not having a go at Sony specifically but you look at any market that doesn't have competition and it's shit.

Apple would be great in the console market but I've not seen any signs they want to enter it. They seem to be taking gaming more seriously but still don't think they'd do an "Apple Silicon" console. If anyone can enter the gaming market and make waves then it'll be Apple. Makes me think that some people should be careful what they wish for.

 

[Badlucktroll]

 

[Kamina]

I don’t get why it should to be one over the other?
Both are profitable so both types of entertainment should exist as long as there is a market. Otherwise the hole put „Sony out of Business“ talk „thought experiment“ would not make any sense, if they really thought of jumping the console gaming ship.

 

[Darsxx82]

Doesn't really read to me like something was seriously being considered. Of course, this was back in 2019. Not exactly the high point of the Xbox brand.

If you go to the other thread: "The purchase of ABK is to eliminate Sony from the console market (even when consoles are not even talked about)

In this thread: "MS wants to kill off XBOX and convert to mobile games business"




What that email shows is frustration over the resources needed to be competitive in the mobile market if you want to grow organically. It only describes the magnitude of the resources they would need for that . Not that there was a suggestion or intention.

At that time, MS was already buying and creating Studios focused on consoles and PCs, it had decided on the plan with XSERIES and was considering purchase more Studios and editors (100+ Studios list), mostly focused on developing for console games. And shortly after he bought Bethesda-Zenimax that only makes games for consoles and PC.

The least logical thing is to think that there could have been a debate in which to end entire XBOX and create a mobile games company.
Rather, it strengthens the idea that the first interest in ABK is based on obtaining that strength in the mobile market that was not organically possible.

 

[xrnzaaas]

Creating a successful and long-lasting mobile game is even trickier than creating a successful gaas title. There's no formula for that and if there was all of the big players would already sink their money into it. Best you can do is obtain studios with mobile IP's on the rise but it's still a gamble if the game will be successful a year later and if they can make an equally successful sequel.

If Microsoft makes that big mobile push it's very likely it's gonna bite them in the ass. And I'm not just saying that because of being butthurt from them potentially abandoning traditional gaming.

 

[Moriarty1889]

As I have said in another post, this whole hearing is unveiling a lot of drama over at MS. I hope this was just a bad idea and a momentary thought that Phil had and not his endgame plan to dissolve the console and go mobile. What a shitshow that would be and one hell of a way to end the Xbox console brand. Thank God for Sony and Playstation and their committment to consoles and games.

 

[Gudji]

Starfield mobile at 60 FPS can't wait.

 

[Heisenberg007]

We are in the endgame now.

I kinda hope Microsoft gets Activision. This is some truly sad shit. Mismanagement of epic proportions. Incompetence at every level.

They refuse to be a leader in gaming. They refuse to go build something great.

After so many lies and blatant attempts to create a monopoly? Nah. I hope this acquisition fails, and this management cries even more. And then Sony starts acquiring. Sony, Tencent, SNK, whatever.

I have been against industry consolidation very vocally. However, Microsoft's internal documents clearly shows that they want to acquire almost everyone out there and have a sole monopoly on content and IPs. The industry will be consolidated anyway. With Sony, at least we will continue getting good games.

 

[kaizenkko]

Imagine what will happen with Xbox if Starfield manage to not be a game that good and Activision deal ends up not closing. lol

 

[Heisenberg007]

Imagine what will happen with Xbox if Starfield manage to not be a game that good and Activision deal ends up not closing. lol

At least one of that is very much happening.

Even if Starfield is fantastic, what's after that? Xbox has been advertising Starfield as the MVP of their Showcases for the last 2+ years now. The rest of the showcase was quite average; it was the Starfield Direct that made everyone super happy. After Starfield, it is back to Avowed, Everwild, Hellblade 2, etc.

They need to up their game; yet their focus remains on acquiring studios and minimizing PlayStation's library of games.

 

[Z O N E]

Genuine question, but how did these emails come to light? Not just this one, but all the emails we are seeing, because how would they know that Phil Spencer sent these sorts of emails or said things in emails without asking for ALL the emails he sent?

Were they leaked or because of the FTC court order they had to be handed over or something?

 

[Interfectum]

Same old excuses.

It's been clear as day what Xbox has planned here.

The clear and present danger GamePass poses to traditional gaming can't be overstated.

They want to turn GamePass into Netflix, raise the price, lower the cost of content, be platform agnostic.

The problem is Sony and Nintendo are in their way, particularly Sony. They know they've lost the "console war" and they bet big on xCloud and GamePass instead. It's the reason why they raised prices on GamePass on Xbox but not PC. Ultimately, they want more adoption on PC and Mobile. Xbox is a means to an end for Microsoft.

Sony knows the same thing, but their strategy is still firmly rooted in traditional gaming (for now), but their big GaaS push is because of games like Fortnite, GTA Online, and Red Dead Online.

Mobile is eating their lunch and console is a small crumb of the overall cookie. The free ride for GamePass on console is slowly coming to an end and Xbox fans will slowly but surely realize that. Right now they're trying to boil the frog, which is what you have to do with subscription services. Look at Netflix they've raised prices about as much as they can, so what did they do, they went after password sharers with the belief that it would increase subscribers and at least in the short term they were right.

Yup. Imagine spending years on a game like Starfield only to give it away on a subscription service. Only tech companies like MS can do that because they don't care about making money off of Starfield or even gaming. It's pennies to them. To people who enjoy gaming it's a devastating precedent. If Game Pass ever started to truly dominate you can expect the budget of huge games like Starfield to plummet. You aren't getting 'free' AAA games on this service forever... this is a loss lead to hook the suckers.

 

[Interfectum]

I mean, it is fucking Microsoft we're talking about. It's not like they have a stellar track record.

But Phil is one of us! He's so nice and he talks to special people like Klob and TimDog.

 

[RoboFu]

 

[kaizenkko]

At least one of that is very much happening.

Even if Starfield is fantastic, what's after that? Xbox has been advertising Starfield as the MVP of their Showcases for the last 2+ years now. The rest of the showcase was quite average; it was the Starfield Direct that made everyone super happy. After Starfield, it is back to Avowed, Everwild, Hellblade 2, etc.

They need to up their game; yet their focus remains on acquiring studios and minimizing PlayStation's library of games.

With Starfield being a great game, the can use the hype to change at least a little bit the public perception about their brand. Activision deal closing up will help that too. But if Starfield is nothing more than a ok game and Act deal fail, what type of move will MS do?

 

[aygomyownroad]

Mobile games used to be great (I remember a Doom game decades ago).
But without emulators it’s now just advert full trash.

Apple Arcade has some gems, but if Xbox moved to mobile then it would make my gaming more streamlined… as I would be PlayStation only

 

[ByWatterson]

They don't believe in any of this.

 

[Heisenberg007]

With Starfield being a great game, the can use the hype to change at least a little bit the public perception about their brand. Activision deal closing up will help that too. But if Starfield is nothing more than a ok game and Act deal fail, what type of move will MS do?

I think their pivot to mobile gaming will become even faster at that point.

 

[MikeM]

I don’t get why Xbox feels like they need to reinvent the wheel.

Nintendo: great IP= profit

Sony: great IP= profit

See the similarities? They need to get back to a console focused strategy. Everything needs to be secondary, not the other way around. Otherwise, Xbox really makes itself irrelevant. I can get all their games on PC which you can’t say for most of Sony’s IP and none of Nintendo’s.

Studios need to be properly managed. Get those OP special edition consoles out for new release IP. Give people reasons to invest in your ecosystem.

 

[Interfectum]

I don’t get why Xbox feels like they need to reinvent the wheel.

Nintendo: great IP= profit

Sony: great IP= profit

See the similarities? They need to get back to a console focused strategy. Everything needs to be secondary, not the other way around. Otherwise, Xbox really makes itself irrelevant.

Studios need to be properly managed. Get those OP special edition consoles out for new release IP. Give people reasons to invest in your ecosystem.

Console gaming is too small of a business for the MS CEO to care about. The only reason the warchest was opened for Phil was because he promised mobile and cloud users.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

It was at the end of Xbox One X, which was awesome, and pre-Xbox Series launch, which they had lots of confidence about with the 12TF and all.

Seems unlikely to me too.

I would assume that he's not referring to shuttering the entire Xbox brand at a point where they will have spent vast sums on designing and preordering hardware.

I suspect that he's more likely to be talking about Xbox on Mobile, that is to say things like Gears Pop! and Mighty Doom which haven't set the world on fire.

 

[yurinka]

To understand better the meaning and context of these sentences I think it's important to read the whole related mail conversation here, in the source document.

Here courtesy of @reksveks :

Interesting. I see in the 'Fallout 76 in PS Now' mail that Phil mentions that when EA or ABK goes to them to negotiate they don't do it title by title separatedly, but do it negotiating using the weight of their whole catalog at the same time saying that if not they would remove Xbox support for all their entire catalog.

Phil suggests to do the same when negotiating to put their games on PS Now.

 

[Sweden85]

Microsoft is disgusting. Their behavior is off-putting, maybe I will not touch Starfield.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Cannot get my head around it. Am I that old...?

People throw retarded amounts of money at their phones.

You remember that stupid game that was advertised all over YouTube? Raids shadow legends? It’s generated over a billion in revenue already.

 

[Jigsaah]

It's called spitballin'

It's not like Phil suggested this. Someone else at Xbox did and he's telling them why it couldn't work unless they shut down the console stuff.

People when you gotta problem you take suggestions from wherever they come from, you brainstorm about it and then you come up with your way forward.

It's obvious today that they didn't choose go this route, but aimed to find a way to do both to try and pivot around Sony's dominance in the console market.

Can somebody explain the significance of this email as it pertains to the hearing? I'm assuming this is what it's all about.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

People when you gotta problem you take suggestions from wherever they come from, you brainstorm about it and then you come up with your way forward.

It's sort of like when there's a news story about Xbox and everyone comes together to work out reasons why it means the end of the brand, right?

 

[Jigsaah]

It's sort of like when there's a news story about Xbox and everyone comes together to work out reasons why it means the end of the brand, right?

I mean it's ridiculous. People are drawing at straws, desperate to see Xbox fail when it would be bad for EVERYONE if it actually happened. IDIOTS.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Agreed Xbox is perfectly fine with destroying the gaming ecosystem, they would gladly piss away gaming squeezing the life at it for an easy buck then throw it away when they it had finally become no longer worth it, thankfully even if they did Nintendo is so stubborn they wouldn't follow suit (at least not until all the old guard died).

They’re poison.

 

[Jigsaah]

Phil Spencer maybe working towards the contents of that email as we speak.

I mean it just basically happens if the deal goes through. To be clear though, this doesn't necessarily mean the console division shuts down. Matter of fact it's highly unlikely, when they have 20+ studios working on CONSOLE games. That's still billions in profit they would lose.

 

[Balducci30]

Am I reading this wrong? Seems like in the context of the email he’s speaking purely hypothetically in response to something - he’s saying they have no mobile strategy and would have to shut down xbox to succeed in that arena

 

[fallingdove]

I mean it's ridiculous. People are drawing at straws, desperate to see Xbox fail when it would be bad for EVERYONE if it actually happened. IDIOTS.

Xbox is already failing.

And I don’t buy this “if there was no Xbox, it would be bad for everyone.” If Xbox succeeded it would be bad for everyone. Xbox is a creatively bankrupt, mismanaged business who wants to use its vast amounts of wealth to manipulate the industry and ruin the the platforms that have found success. That’s crazy.

Anyone with an ounce of logic can see plain as day that allowing a broken business to buy its way to the top would mean utter ruin for the industry. These emails only reinforce that. Sony, Nintendo, and PC were fine before Xbox entered the fray, they would be fine after.