Support NeoGAF

[Muffin1611]

I haven't read this thread from the start so i'm not sure if this evidence has been posted. If you can, please show.

I'm also speaking from my own experience like many posters here. And I didn't just see myself go through it, almost every kid in my family and friends had times where they did something and got what was coming.

For example, I stole some kid's lunch money once in school. My dad caught me with it after school. Told me that it was a bad thing I did that, got a serious talk and told should go to jail for it. I knew he wouldn't send me to jail and ended up doing the same thing again. That's when I got a hard slap from him in front of some kids. Didn't dare do that again in my life.

Sometimes some hard justice is okay and deserved. Obviously doesn't apply to every kid of every age but it's not that bad of a thing I don't think.

First page:

No. And spoiled and physical abuse have nothing to do with each other. Here's a good article based on 20 years of research on the subject:

http://www.cmaj.ca/content/184/12/1373.short

 

[SMOK3Y]

So then would or wouldn’t you say the same thing about a pet? Or a maybe avoid the question with more sarcasm.

Pets are on a different level they work by instinct so tbh I'd be more lenient on a dog than a human

 

[Darksol]

There’s something to the methods Japanese parents and teachers employ. I’ve had thousands of students, mostly from the ages of 3-6, and the difference is night and day from children that age in Canada or the US.

Imagine a classroom of 20-30 4 year olds, all sitting in three equal lines quietly and attentively.

Hell, at our school when the children come in, they hang up their coats, take off their hat, get their box of clothes from their little locker, go to their classroom, change into their school outfit, return their box, go to the bathroom, wash their hands, come back to the classroom and sit down. They do this in about 10-15 minutes. When I’m in Canada I frequently see mothers and fathers doing everything for their children as though they’re hapless idiots.

At lunchtime the children serve the food to each other, set up their tables with their lunchmat, chopsticks and bento and then they get their own chair.

The children at our school are never hit, we rarely have to yell or raise our voice, and they’re super happy and enthusiastic.

Instilling a sense of personal responsibility, a little bit of pride, a lot of humility and an eagerness to try anything seems to be a recipe for success.

Then I think of mothers in Canada I’ve seen dressing their 8 year olds, even putting their shoes on for them and taking off their coats. The children can’t even function on their own in any capacity. Then when the parents ask the child to do something and they can’t (because their parents never allowed them the opportunity to learn), they get frustrated and yell or strike them.

I certainly know which method is more effective.

 

[Not]

This is literally what we do.

During the whole Disney Infinity craze, the kids each had a star chart. When they done good things and helped out, they got a star. When the chart was filled up, which was usually at the end of the month, they each got a new character and they could play DI all day that day.

Worked wonders.

Now we give them pocket money and once a month we go up to the toy shop and they can pick whatever they want in the limits of the money they have. Usually a tenner plus any more they've been given by others.

They fucking love it.

That's a cool idea. The microreward system. So there's something tangible and easily attainable so they don't lose interest, but infrequent enough to make losing one really hurt.

 

[OmegaTreeFish]

Positive reinforcement also usually works better than negative one. "I'm very proud of how you behaved at the birthday/funeral/visit downtown today" when they behave well works so much better than "you fucking dipshit, go to your room and think of what you've done" when they behave badly. And instead of 1 month ban from games, make it so that if they behave well for a whole week or a month, they get a toy or a game or you take them to their favorite food place or something. Or every day they behave well, they get a sticker and when they've got 30, they get something good. Not that there should be no negative consequences for their actions, but instead of just punishing, you should encourage & put emphasis on the good behaviour.

Yeah this is really great. Works wonders with my son to. Had a star chart for summer holidays and when he filled it up we took him to digger land. If you focus on rewarding the positive then they look to act positive. If acting well is simply the normal and you gain nothing for being that way then its no surprise the look they opposite way.

 

[Famassu]

I was smacked as a child. There's difference between a snack on the bum or the wrist that being hit or beaten.

Both me and my sister turned out to be good kids and now good adults.

Both are violence and how you turned out does not negate that fact and does not make it ok. Even ignoring the fact that it's abuse, why risk it as a parent? You cannot know if abuse will harm their development/growth or not, but you can know that there's a high chance it has absolutely no effect on future behaviour and there's a risk of it affecting them negatively, so why risk it?

 

[Not]

There's something to the methods Japanese parents and teachers employ. I've had thousands of students, mostly from the ages of 3-6, and the difference is night and day from children that age in Canada or the US.

Imagine a classroom of 20-30 4 year olds, all sitting in three equal lines quietly and attentively.

Hell, at our school when the children come in, they hang up their coats, take off their hat, get their box of clothes from their little locker, go to their classroom, change into their school outfit, return their box, go to the bathroom, wash their hands, come back to the classroom and sit down. They do this in about 10-15 minutes. When I'm in Canada I frequently see mothers and fathers doing everything for their children as though they're hapless idiots.

At lunchtime the children serve the food to each other, set up their tables with their lunchmat, chopsticks and bento and then they get their own chair.

The children at our school are never hit, we rarely have to yell or raise our voice, and they're super happy and enthusiastic.

Instilling a sense of personal responsibility, a little bit of pride, a lot of humility and an eagerness to try anything seems to be a recipe for success.

Then I think of mothers in Canada I've seen dressing their 8 year olds, even putting their shoes on for them and taking off their coats. The children can't even function on their own in any capacity. Then when the parents ask the child to do something and they can't (because their parents never allowed them the opportunity to learn), they get frustrated and yell or strike them.

I certainly know which method is more effective.

What's a good way to instate humility in a child without embarrassing them or harming their self esteem? I was planning on just being realistic. Like, you ain't shit, get used to it. I love you though.

Note: my kids will pass for white

 

[Prax]

I went through it (southeast asian parents, lots of feather duster whippings). I was pretty curious as a kid so was up to a lot of hijinx and would get punished for it. But I never particularly learned anything from it except development some resentment and tried to be clever to escape it lol. Like I wouldn't understand what the punishment had to do with what I did wrong, so it just came off as arbitrary and maybe me cynical about adults knowing what they were doing..

Shaming on the other hand, made more logical sense sometimes, even if there was some hypocritical or "unjust"/illogical reasoning buried in it (e.g. when you use tradition or social image as a justification). Still not the best and it gave me a lot of social anxieties probably, but at least I am a much toned-down jerk than I could have been lol.

Now, I do think for some children, physical "guidance" or redirection might be more effective (like a hand tap or butt smack to get their attention away from whatever dangerous thing they are doing? Nothing painful, just attention-grabbing), but I don't think hitting is at all that effective in the long run compared to teaching a child to correct their mistakes (learning consequences for their messes, for example). This is good for both parent and child as you become a teacher and mentor instead of a punisher.

 

[MarkMclovin]

That's a cool idea. The microreward system. So there's something tangible and easily attainable so they don't lose interest, but infrequent enough to make losing one really hurt.

It does work great.

They don't get stars / money for things they SHOULD do though, i.e homework, tidy their room etc. It's when they do extra stuff they get rewarded like that.

 

[Prax]

What's a good way to instate humility in a child without embarrassing them or harming their self esteem? I was planning on just being realistic. Like, you ain't shit, get used to it. I love you though.

Note: my kids will pass for white

I think it's easier to teach a kid to praise others than it is to teach them "humility". When you teach a kid to see value in others for their efforts, they expand their perspective and likely won't put themselves down either.

 

[Not]

It does work great.

They don't get stars / money for things they SHOULD do though, i.e homework, tidy their room etc. It's when they do extra stuff they get rewarded like that.

Dude, I still never made my fucking bed. My poor mom. I still don't.

I got spanked with a paddle on bare skin. But the most effective ways of getting me to comply were always, always, always, always, ALWAYS tangible rewards. What does that say about me, I guess.

I think it's easier to teach a kid to praise others than it is to teach them "humility". When you teach a kid to see value in others for their efforts, they expand their perspective and likely won't put themselves down either.

Interesting. Could that open a door to feeling inferior via constant comparison to others though? That happened to me.

I'm not even planning on having kids in the next five or six years at least. I'm just really interested in this topic. I'm still connected to what it felt like to be a kid.

 

[Famassu]

Its not that simple when you're a parent

It really is. You wouldn't hit any other person unless they are downright threatening your life or something (I would hope), so why would hitting your children be any more ok? Hint: it's not and it would just reflect poorly on you as a parent if you do.

 

[SMOK3Y]

It really is. You wouldn't hit any other person unless they are downright threatening your life or something (I would hope), so why would hitting your children be any more ok? Hint: it's not and it would just reflect poorly on you as a parent if you do.

This is what boggles my mind a little tap on your childs bum is totally diffent from punching/hitting a stranger lol

 

[OmegaTreeFish]

What's a good way to instate humility in a child without embarrassing them or harming their self esteem? I was planning on just being realistic. Like, you ain't shit, get used to it. I love you though.

Note: my kids will pass for white

Lol I wouldnt say that to my son.

Can you give a situation where you couldnt think of a suitable way to handle?

This is what boggles my mind a little tap on your childs bum is totally diffent from punching/hitting a stranger lol

If its enough to inflict pain then its the same thing. You are teaching that causing physical pain is an apropriate response.

If its a literal tap that doesnt cause pain then what are you even doing it for?

 

[Darksol]

What's a good way to instate humility in a child without embarrassing them or harming their self esteem? I was planning on just being realistic. Like, you ain't shit, get used to it. I love you though.

Note: my kids will pass for white

Honestly, I have no idea how it could be implemented in most western countries — culturally they’re so different and the qualities they value and instill in children are also different. I think it would take a complete overhaul in thinking as to what values we want for our children, what methods we would need to employ, and how consistent we’re willing to be in enforcing those beliefs.

 

[kinggroin]

Hitting your kids is a gamble that your parental relationship is strong and loving enough to form the requisite resilience to the trauma you're exposing them to.

Basically, if you're a super involved parent that's caring and affirming, you're effectively using corporal punishment as a last-straw strategy to exemplify the extent of the trouble that your kid is in. If you're cold and neglectful, and still hit your kid, you're an abuser.

This.


The spanking is as far off to the last resort end of things as possible. And if it happens to come to that, DO NOT LET THEM STEW IN THE MOMENT.

Wait a few seconds, then drop down eye to eye, and explain WHY it happened, and then embrace them.


Anyone saying across the board, "no" is either not a parent or doesn't believe everyone is built differently than everyone else.

 

[SMOK3Y]

Lol I wouldnt say that to my son.

Can you give a situation where you couldnt think of a suitable way to handle?



If its enough to inflict pain then its the same thing. You are teaching that causing physical pain is an apropriate response.

If its a literal tap that doesnt cause pain then what are you even doing it for?

I give up its not the same thing and you know it

 

[oneils]

Even if corporal punishment worked, it is not the only form of discipline that works. That reason, alone, is enough to not do it. There are other options. If a parent has multiple options at their disposal and uses corporal punishment instead, I feel like they have fucked up. Especially in 2017. I can understand it’s use when I was a kid (in the 70s).but we should all know better by now.

 

[televator]

Pets are on a different level they work by instinct so tbh I'd be more lenient on a dog than a human

So if a dog, who as you believe is overwhelming guided by instincts, can be trained to behave without violence; what about a child with a higher capacity for learning and potential comprehension?

 

[peakish]

Here are the main points of frustration I have when it comes to this topic and people getting overly defensive about it.

The scientific consensus should matter.

I see so many people just hand-waving or outright ignoring the fact that the overwhelming consensus of research into this subject says that not only does corporeal punishment carry a bevy of negative psychological effects but that it's also ineffective at achieving the desired disciplinary results.



The global trajectory should matter.

More and more countries are banning corporeal punishment as a form of child discipline. Three years ago it was only 30 and now we're up to 49. Nearly every country in South America has banned it. This isn't just a case of a few liberal countries in the first world west complaining about different cultures being 'backwards'.

We should not treat our pets better than our children.

I can't remember the last time I heard someone on GAF defend hitting dogs or cats as a form of training/discipline. Everybody knows the right way to train a dog but when it comes to your children suddenly physical violence is back on the table.

Anecdotes don't trump science.

'It snowed this winter therefore global warming isn't true' is the same thing as 'I got hit and I turned out ok'. That's putting aside the fact that self-evaluation is probably the worst way to get an objective result, or that the relevant question is whether you would have turned out even better if you hadn't been hit.

Accept that your parents can do wrong and so can you.

People seem psychologically unwilling to accept the fact that their parents (or themselves) may have done something wrong. That doesn't mean you can't love them or that they didn't love you. It doesn't mean they or you are evil people who need to be locked up. But it does mean admitting that it would have been better for the children involved for different choices to have been made.

Your parents didn't have the advantage of a scientific consensus telling them it was both ineffective and harmful. They didn't have the benefit of living in a world where you could look up and research alternative techniques and forms of discipline from the comfort of your home. They didn't live in a world where they could be aware that the global trend was moving towards the banning of corporeal punishment.

But you do. You have all those tools at your disposal and you have the power to make a different and better choice for yourself and your children.

Great post. In addition, I think the onus should not be on researchers to prove that physical punishment has a negative effect on children.

It should be on advocates to scientifically assert that it has a positive effect over the alternatives.

 

[Prax]

Dude, I still never made my fucking bed. My poor mom. I still don't.

I got spanked with a paddle on bare skin. But the most effective ways of getting me to comply were always, always, always, always, ALWAYS tangible rewards. What does that say about me, I guess.



Interesting. Could that open a door to feeling inferior via constant comparison to others though? That happened to me.

I'm not even planning on having kids in the next five or six years at least. I'm just really interested in this topic. I'm still connected to what it felt like to be a kid.

Haha, my mom did all the chores. I was perhaps too clever as a kid. I learned fast that she'd do chores over waiting for me to get off my butt to do it so I let her do it and grumble about it. I decided somewhat early on that my personal job as a kid was "to get good grades" and had my parents paying me whenever I earned top marks.

As for the possibly learning to compare themselves and feeling bad. Well, you have to praise your own kid for their efforts too! lol Hopefully they internalize that and know when they are deserving of praise or not for their own efforts.

I know I got compared to others as a put down. "How come you're not good and quiet and HER. no child is like you!" "How come you can't be smart like HIM!" etc. That's not the way to do it.
Maybe something like "your friend is very smart. he must work very hard doing homework. You work very hard at ___ (i don't know.. running and jumping around lol) so you're really fast. If you work harder with homework, maybe you can have high marks too!" Then it's kind of a let kid decide their direction. I think parents should help kids learn their strengths and cope with their weaknesses, and not just hammer them into some model ideal.

I also believe there's research that praising kids for working hard and not just their "natural talent" or "smarts" encourages a spirit of perseverance in them.
I became pretty lazy because I was just treated as smart lol. Not that I didn't work hard, but I definitely do not work hard nor with as much grit as some of my friends and it probably shows via my career trajectory.

Anyway, back to the punishment and teaching thing, here's a cute anecdote from my friend who worked with at risk kids (hopefully you can read the emoticons lol):

i tried not to punish kids for stuff that wasn't out of malice or defiance
like if kid yelled out of simple agitation i just :0 "i can't hear yelling? can you whisper so i can hear??" then dramatically cup my ear
or like
kids are always gonna break stuff or make messes
and i was always like whatever lol
but then make them clean it up as soon as they calm down
i remember one volunteer thought i was so mean
because a cute 3 year old baby in our class dropped a bowl of spaghetti on the floor
and just q-q/ "i dwop paghetti...!!"
me: ._. "ok. thats fine. now clean it up."
baby: qoq ????? (tears in eyes)
me: i'll hold the bowl for you. here.
baby: ;-; ...... T-T/ .......then sadly starts trying clean up
and i am thinking "YEAH RIGHT! YOU THINK BECAUSE YOU ARE A CUTE BABY I WILL CLEAN IT FOR YOU! GUESS AGAIN SUCKER"
so he's picking up "paghetti" very mournfully with clumsy baby fingers
and a college girl volunteer just looked at me with concern and disbelief that I would force this little kid to do this
then after he was done i told him he did a very good job and thanked him for cleaning up!
then he was really sweetly happy and proud >w<
so make them clean it up
even if they do it badly hahhaha

 

[OmegaTreeFish]

I give up its not the same thing and you know it

Its the same principle and if you want to fob this off by just telling me I know your right when I infact completely disagree than please continue to kid yourself.

 

[Not]

My family hurt our dog as punishment. The ol' scruff shake.

 

[Widdle Puppy]

It's archaic and savage. You don't inflict physical pain on kids, ever.

 

[SMOK3Y]

So if a dog, who as you believe is overwhelming guided by instincts, can be trained to behave without violence; what about a child with a higher capacity for learning and potential comprehension?

Yes a dog is guided by instinct as are humans. but humans have higher brain function to learn & know the differences between right & wrong. Same as people in this thread should realise there's a difference between a smack & abuse but no..

 

[Not]

i

tried not to punish kids for stuff that wasn't out of malice or defiance
like if kid yelled out of simple agitation i just :0 "i can't hear yelling? can you whisper so i can hear??" then dramatically cup my ear
or like
kids are always gonna break stuff or make messes
and i was always like whatever lol
but then make them clean it up as soon as they calm down
i remember one volunteer thought i was so mean
because a cute 3 year old baby in our class dropped a bowl of spaghetti on the floor
and just q-q/ "i dwop paghetti...!!"
me: ._. "ok. thats fine. now clean it up."
baby: qoq ????? (tears in eyes)
me: i'll hold the bowl for you. here.
baby: ;-; ...... T-T/ .......then sadly starts trying clean up
and i am thinking "YEAH RIGHT! YOU THINK BECAUSE YOU ARE A CUTE BABY I WILL CLEAN IT FOR YOU! GUESS AGAIN SUCKER"
so he's picking up "paghetti" very mournfully with clumsy baby fingers
and a college girl volunteer just looked at me with concern and disbelief that I would force this little kid to do this
then after he was done i told him he did a very good job and thanked him for cleaning up!
then he was really sweetly happy and proud >w<
so make them clean it up
even if they do it badly hahhaha

Awww lmao "I dwop paghetti"

 

[Famassu]

This is what boggles my mind a little tap on your childs bum is totally diffent from punching/hitting a stranger lol

If it's meant to hurt the child so much that it's supposed to discourage him/her from doing bad stuff again, then it's more than "just a little tap" and it's abuse.

If it's wrong and abuse/assault towards other people, then it's abuse/an assault towards your own child.

 

[PizzaFace]

If you hit your kids, you're a terrible parent. Simple as that really.

 

[bwakh]

First page:

Fair enough, but a lot of the studies referenced define a more severe form of physical punishment rather than a couple of slaps and talking to. Emphasis on including the talking part.

I agree that cruel punishment will probably have a negative impact on child development so it boils down to whether you believe slapping is cruel and abusive. I really don't think it's a big deal having dealt with it and watching others deal with it as well.

 

[OmegaTreeFish]

Yes a dog is guided by instinct as are humans. but humans have higher brain function to learn & know the differences between right & wrong. Same as people in this thread should realise there's a difference between a smack & abuse but no..

So you really beleive there is no way in hell you might be wrong in any way?

You arguments to your point so far are

1. I turned out OK
2. A smack isnt the same as abuse and you know it.

Thats it.

Why is it OK to smack a child and cause them pain as punishment when there are alternatives that don't involve inflicting pain?

 

[mrkgoo]

The only appropriate physical action should be a slapped butt / hands and nothing further.

It's all I got as a kid as well as my cousins and we are all fine. Most parents these days are way too soft with their kids imo, it's why they are all spoilt shits and never shut the fuck up when screaming.

I got hit when I was bad as a kid, an d I assumed I turned out fine too - and I do NOT advocate hitting kids as a form of discipline in most instances.

While I agrees that parenting today is quite different than before, it's based on a lot more research and know-how. yes, some parents are soft and don't discipline their kids. Many are spoilt. Sure.

But the way you've reduced it to most parents, and most kids, and that kids scream because of it and if only the parents had disciplined them with a smack or two.

Yeah, as a parent, it's not that simple.

I mean, from the sounds of it, you'd advocate giving a smack to a screaming kid that doesn't even communicate effectively yet, like a toddler or baby. NO, these kids won't even know the connection you're making.

Here's the brunt of it - kids, especially little ones, can scream because when they are little, they have no other form of communication. Work on that communication, and the reaction to their displeasure will cease. Smacking them will not.

One of the key principles to disciplining kids is to install the values of behaviour early, when they're less rebellious. at that point, simple yeses, and nos, and a lot of affirmative reinforcement does wonders. Create that foundation.

Of course, it's also not that simple all the time either. Some kids are simply a lot more work.

 

[Famassu]

Fair enough, but a lot of the studies referenced define a more severe form of physical punishment rather than a couple of slaps and talking to. Emphasis on including the talking part.

I agree that cruel punishment will probably have a negative impact on child development so it boils down to whether you believe slapping is cruel and abusive. I really don't think it's a big deal having dealt with it and watching others deal with it as well.

So you are ok hurting a child.

 

[bwakh]

So you are ok hurting a child.

Yes, a slap. When, I being the parent, think he or she deserves it.

 

[88random]

Ehh, if I ever have a child I'll try to avoid it, but I don't think a few mild slaps on the butt really hurt anyone if normal talk doesn't help.

 

[Widdle Puppy]

Anyone ever see those weird rants on conservative facebook where some dope defends getting beat by a belt and how their dad did it to them all the time and that they are "thankful" for it?

 

[mrkgoo]

So you really beleive there is no way in hell you might be wrong in any way?

You arguments to your point so far are

1. I turned out OK
2. A smack isnt the same as abuse and you know it.

Thats it.

Why is it OK to smack a child and cause them pain as punishment when there are alternatives that don't involve inflicting pain?

I think th point is that there are some "smacks" that actually don't hurt, so it's not the pain that is meant to be the discipline, but rather the action itself is meant to be a gesture of disapproval....maybe?

Like my kid, I can yell at her to clean something or to listen or whatever, and she will give me some attitude. but if it gets serious, and I merely say this is serious, and I'm REALLY disappointed in you, she will shut up and get really upset.

Maybe for some people, Sometimes a "slap on the wrist" as a gesture can show them that what you are talking about is serious and it's not joke time any more. Though I guess you could also argue that that's escalation...

 

[OmegaTreeFish]

I think th point is that there are some "smacks" that actually don't hurt, so it's not the pain that is meant to be the discipline, but rather the action itself is meant to be a gesture of disapproval....maybe?

A smack that does literally nothing is even more pointless. "Dont do this or I will gently touch you on the bum". Man that sounds creepy.

 

[mrkgoo]

Anyone ever see those weird rants on conservative facebook where some dope defends getting beat by a belt and how their dad did it to them all the time and that they are "thankful" for it?

It's the mark of an abusive relationship, whereby the victim cannot acknowledge to themselves that it's abuse and try to protect the abuser.

My parents hit me, I don't blame them for that kind of parenting - it came from a different era. I dunno if it did me good or not, but I did turn out fine (mostly), but I'm certainly not thankful for it.

 

[Mango Positive]

My mom spanked me. For my son though, it's enough to sternly say the word “no“ to send him crying as if I'd hit him.

 

[mrkgoo]

A smack that does literally nothing is even more pointless. "Dont do this or I will gently touch you on the bum". Man that sounds creepy.

A gesture of disapproval. like a literal slap on the wrist. I've never done it to my daughter, so if I ever did, she'd probably instantly know I was being dead serious, and not my usual just yelling. But yeah, like I said, maybe that's the definition of escalation....

 

[SMOK3Y]

So you really beleive there is no way in hell you might be wrong in any way?

You arguments to your point so far are

1. I turned out OK
2. A smack isnt the same as abuse and you know it.

Thats it.

Why is it OK to smack a child and cause them pain as punishment when there are alternatives that don't involve inflicting pain?

Im not saying I'm right or wrong I got smacks as a child I new they'd be coming because of what I'd done I would never say it was abused. One way does not fit all but going in the totally opposite direction doesn't work either. There's a time and a place for everything thats the issue nowdays its all or nothing

 

[bwakh]

Im not saying I'm right or wrong I got smacks as a child I new they'd be coming because of what I'd done I would never say it was abused. One way does not fit all but going in the totally opposite direction doesn't work either. There's a time and a place for everything thats the issue nowdays its all or nothing

Agreed.

 

[OmegaTreeFish]

Im not saying I'm right or wrong I got smacks as a child I new they'd be coming because of what I'd done I would never say it was abused. One way does not fit all but going in the totally opposite direction doesn't work either. There's a time and a place for everything thats the issue nowdays its all or nothing

At the end of the day each parent has to make their own choice in this. While with many issues I agree all or nothing is prob not right, My personal view is inflecting pain is not needed at all.

 

[televator]

Yes a dog is guided by instinct as are humans. but humans have higher brain function to learn & know the differences between right & wrong. Same as people in this thread should realise there's a difference between a smack & abuse but no..

You don’t see how your own admissions make your position worse? Dogs are trainable without physical discipline, but children with a higher predisposition to learn right from wrong aren’t?

 

[flatearthpandas]

Having spent some time working with young kids, I totally get why someone would want to hit one in the heat of the moment. As someone who had the shit kicked out of me by both parents I get the mental framework wherein one might feel like it isn't harmful. Tbh, I think kids will forgive a lot and most will grow up to be decent people even with corporal punishment from otherwise loving parents.

But it isn't necessary. You can control kids with positive reinforcement who don't even speak your language and have no reason to care about you or respect you. I'm not a parent and I dread the thought of being one someday, but I think it's not necessary. Eating dinner with friends whose families talked things out and treated each other like people always made me more sad than any beating because it showed me the kind of homelife I could have had in different circumstances.

 

[thefro]

It's amazing the human capacity to deny logic and science when faced with a fact that goes against their opinion.

If you're lumping in parents who abuse their kids with responsible parents who rarely will use corporal punishment as a last resort you're not going to get a valid scientific study.

 

[mrkgoo]

Having spent some time working with young kids, I totally get why someone would want to hit one in the heat of the moment. As someone who had the shit kicked out of me by both parents I get the mental framework wherein one might feel like it isn't harmful. Tbh, I think kids will forgive a lot and most will grow up to be decent people even with corporal punishment from otherwise loving parents.

But it isn't necessary. You can control kids with positive reinforcement who don't even speak your language and have no reason to care about you or respect you. I'm not a parent and I dread the thought of being one someday, but I think it's not necessary. Eating dinner with friends whose families talked things out and treated each other like people always made me more sad than any beating because it showed me the kind of homelife I could have had in different circumstances.

great points.

 

[SMOK3Y]

You don’t see how your own admissions make your position worse? Dogs are trainable without physical discipline, but children with a higher predisposition to learn right from wrong aren’t?

Yes & no that is why parenting can be hard. teaching a child is not teaching a dog...

 

[televator]

Yes & no that is why parenting can be hard. teaching a child is not teaching a dog...

Right, apparently dogs get the benefit of more patience and consideration of their mental faculties.

 

[tonysidaway]

The point is, humans are really goddamn complicated and this is a really complex issue in general. I think it'll be really interesting to see what happens as corporal punishment goes more and more out of vogue. That said, I can't help but wonder if and when we'll see a backslide on the issue such as when many child psychologists were pushing the idea that parents should all treat their children as always winners, centers of their own universe, an experiment in overwhelming positive reinforcement that also backfired in unexpected ways.

You're painting the world as black and white, even as you say it's complex. Now you imply that the only alternative to hitting children is to coddle them. Do you realise that this is what you're saying?