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[highrider]

The most entertaining thing about affirmative action to me, is that it supposes that life should be fair. That’s not how dominance hierarchies work.

 

[BigBooper]

I believe slavery is too long passed to have affected many people nowadays.

How many slaves' descendants would have been born into a life of luxury if they're parents had never been enslaved? How many would have even been better off financially? I'd guess not many.

 

[zeorhymer]

Holy shit, the victimizing of women and blacks is some demented mindset. To think, let alone say, that they are lower than men or whites is mindbogglingly asinine.

 

[Ixiah]

Not to mention it implies that women can´t do anything about that themselfs if they are treated unfair, White Knight to the Rescue!

 

[TriSuit666]

.

^ This is an explanation for people who think like this. I'm going to try to save you from your narrow view..

Not really interested in a word salad answer, but starting your position with ‘you people’ really isn’t a good look.

You need to check your privilege.

 

[LordKasual]

Not really interested in a word salad answer, but starting your position with ‘you people’ really isn’t a good look.

You need to check your privilege.

suit yourself lol.

Admittedly that sentence is a bit more inflammatory than I should have made it though, so i'm actually going to apologize for that sentence.

but if you think such an issue can be explained without "word salad" to someone who genuinely doesn't understand it then that kind of accurately explains away the whole discussion around this sort of thing.

 

[Azurro]

Considering the damage we have done with slavery and discrimination i think we owe it to minorities to reverse societal losses.

I always find this sort of mentality hilarious. For example, a huge part of my DNA came from people that literally cut open the bodies of POWs and cut out their hearts while alive and offered them to their gods. To whom should I apologise?

 

[StormCell]

suit yourself lol.

Admittedly that sentence is a bit more inflammatory than I should have made it though, so i'm actually going to apologize for that sentence.

but if you think such an issue can be explained without "word salad" to someone who genuinely doesn't understand it then that kind of accurately explains away the whole discussion around this sort of thing.

I do appreciate your explanation and the time you took to present it. It's a very complicated topic. I believe I even saw a study that depicted this white advantage that exists whereby it was shown that white people are more willing to help other white people more than any other race demonstrates a willingness to help others of the same race or culture. I don't know if that study still holds water today and it's not worth my time to google. I'm willing to bet it's true based on anecdotal evidence alone, because I've been treated as something close to family by lots of people growing up.

I'm not opposed to affirmative action in the sense that I personally am willing to help others regardless of race, ethnicity, etc.

Me and mine first, though. I will always fight for mine.

 

[TriSuit666]

suit yourself lol.

Admittedly that sentence is a bit more inflammatory than I should have made it though, so i'm actually going to apologize for that sentence.

but if you think such an issue can be explained without "word salad" to someone who genuinely doesn't understand it then that kind of accurately explains away the whole discussion around this sort of thing.

Again, you presume before you’ve opened your mouth.

You condemn your own position with your judgmental attitude.

 

[HE1NZ]

Technically, Hitler's policies were affirmative action for the benefit of pure Germans. And the narrative was similar - Germany failed because Jews were opressing it. In both cases you have the state getting involved in race relations and making preferences.

 

[Schrödinger's cat]

but if you think such an issue can be explained without "word salad"

Everything and anything can be explained without word salad.
You either don't know what word salad is, or you do and require that level of noise-over-signal to purposefully obfuscate the questionable position you've adopted.

 

[Vengrim]

Everything and anything can be explained without word salad.
You either don't know what word salad is, or you do and require that level of noise-over-signal to purposefully obfuscate the questionable position you've adopted.

Now either you don't know what word salad is or you have an extremely simplistic view on life. Word salad is not synonymous with "lots of words".

I don't have a strong opinion on affirmative action either way. I just don't think it actually affects that many people. But mostly because it is just another menial issue obfuscating that the real divide is having money vs not. Always has been, always will. Money don't care what your race is. It oppresses equally.

 

[Just Sayin]

Strongly in favor of affirmative action, though its current manifestation benefits white women more than the black people it was intended to aid.

 

[Just Sayin]

Now either you don't know what word salad is or you have an extremely simplistic view on life. Word salad is not synonymous with "lots of words".

I don't have a strong opinion on affirmative action either way. I just don't think it actually affects that many people. But mostly because it is just another menial issue obfuscating that the real divide is having money vs not. Always has been, always will. Money don't care what your race is. It oppresses equally.

Bullshit. Ask Chris Cooper, a wealthy and accomplished black man who was almost killed because he dared to ask a woman to leash her dog, if having money shields you from white supremacy.

 

[Vengrim]

Bullshit. Ask Chris Cooper, a wealthy and accomplished black man who was almost killed because he dared to ask a woman to leash her dog, if having money shields you from white supremacy.

I must be living in a different timeline 'cus I don't remember anything of the sort happening. White chick called the cops, cops came and talked to him, she got fired from her job.

I'm not sure why you would think I said that it is some kind of bullet proof vest against injustice. I'm not even sure Chris Cooper is the kind of wealthy I'm talking about. Or why you would think one problem precludes another from happening. And I still contend that rich people are more interested in keeping the poor poor than specifically one race or the other. It's about entrenching their power so they don't lose what they have and to do it, they will get white people to fight black people all while picking both pockets.

 

[Just Sayin]

I must be living in a different timeline 'cus I don't remember anything of the sort happening. White chick called the cops, cops came and talked to him, she got fired from her job.

I'm not sure why you would think I said that it is some kind of bullet proof vest against injustice. I'm not even sure Chris Cooper is the kind of wealthy I'm talking about. Or why you would think one problem precludes another from happening. And I still contend that rich people are more interested in keeping the poor poor than specifically one race or the other. It's about entrenching their power so they don't lose what they have and to do it, they will get white people to fight black people all while picking both pockets.

No matter how accomplished or wealthy a black man or woman have become, they will always be subject to the racism of people like that woman who attempted to have Chris Cooper killed for having the sheer audacity to ask that she abide by the park's rules. So, no, again, you're wrong. The divide between rich and poor is immaterial to a discussion of racism. It has zero bearing and is a deflection.

 

[Schrödinger's cat]

Now either you don't know what word salad is or you have an extremely simplistic view on life. Word salad is not synonymous with "lots of words".

It's a tool to obfuscate whilst giving the impression of superior intellect. Hence my saying 'noise-over-signal'.

I don't have a simple outlook, but I know that purposefully obfuscating something when you hold a questionable position and you have a reputation of strawman fallacies, narcissism and a snooty 'you people' rhetoric is a long, long way from talking with integrity.

My points stand.

 

[Roufianos]

Positive discrimination is patronising, lazy, virtue signalling, giving someone a job they don't deserve.

The question should be how can we ensure that minorities and economically deprived whites are given a good upbringing and access to a good upbringing. That would actually require effort of course.

 

[Blade2.0]

Who is gonna want to hire people they’ve never seen or met, especially at small businesses where a lot rides on each hire? Or are you proposing that people wear bags over their head to interviews to hide their appearance? Or sit behind a one way mirror?

did you think that idea through at all before typing it up and hitting post?

Probably not, but until we do, quit acting like this world is a meritocracy that has no inherent biases against people (whether of color, weight, or sex). There are many factors at play of whether why someone is successful or not and it isn't always down to "hard work and gumption". Affirmative Action was put into place to try and sway people away from these inherent biases and whether it has worked or not is what's up for debate. Not that these biases don't exist and are make believe.

 

[LordKasual]

Again, you presume before you’ve opened your mouth.

You condemn your own position with your judgmental attitude.

"Condemn my own position?" LOL what does that even mean? You think holding your ears hostage is a smart move?? Tells me all I need to know about you.

How's this for an "presumption" -- You never intended to read anything opposite your position to begin with. If you did then at least one of your replies would actually have substance. Though this is less of a presumption and more of an observation at this point.

Please feel free to ignore my "word salads" in the future lol

 

[Schrödinger's cat]

"Condemn my own position?" LOL what does that even mean?

Your excessive verbiage stands for nothing when you hope to dismiss a challenger's point by claiming you can't understand what they're saying.

Ironically, in doing so you condemn your own position. Again.
(Issuer of many words. Unable to understand words.)

Hope that helps.

 

[LordKasual]

I do appreciate your explanation and the time you took to present it. It's a very complicated topic. I believe I even saw a study that depicted this white advantage that exists whereby it was shown that white people are more willing to help other white people more than any other race demonstrates a willingness to help others of the same race or culture. I don't know if that study still holds water today and it's not worth my time to google. I'm willing to bet it's true based on anecdotal evidence alone, because I've been treated as something close to family by lots of people growing up.

I'm not opposed to affirmative action in the sense that I personally am willing to help others regardless of race, ethnicity, etc.

Me and mine first, though. I will always fight for mine.

The part about "more than any other race demonstrates a willingness to help others" is absolutely true. I personally feel like this mild sense of xenophobia affects white people more than other races just by the nature of social positions.

This is kind of reflected in the fact that there are offensive stereotypes / slurs for pretty much every minority race in America but few (if any) true ones for white americans, at least ones that weren't created by white americans themselves.

So I think it's less that white people are reluctant to help other outside their race, and more based on the fact that it's kind of embedded in American cultural DNA to be very weary of things that are different, resist change, and preserve the "normal".

In a general sense, White people moving into a neighborhood from the perspective of minorities is usually perceived as the community coming up (or being gentrified lol), and them moving out is seen as the opposite. Whereas Minorities moving into a neighborhood from the perspective of white people is usually a sign that property values are falling and it's probably time to leave. There's even a name for this.

This is actually kind of a good, indirect example of why Affirmative Action even exists. There's nothing inherently advantageous about being xenophobic, but the cultural tenancy to CONSCIOUSLY veer away from what's different and preserve what's familiar leaks into every other aspect of society. Such a community would obviously feel a tenancy to prefer "their own" if the chance arises.


It's not unique to white people by any means, but it's true nonetheless, and when white people are the ones who hold most of the keys and wealth, then it creates an issue because the effects of this behavior become naturally become disproportionate.

 

[Schrödinger's cat]

When you write another word salad essay and you are using race as your qualifier for your argument, you are going to fall down a hole of your own making.

When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

 

[StormCell]

The part about "more than any other race demonstrates a willingness to help others" is absolutely true. I personally feel like this mild sense of xenophobia affects white people more than other races just by the nature of social positions.

This is kind of reflected in the fact that there are offensive stereotypes / slurs for pretty much every minority race in America but few (if any) true ones for white americans, at least ones that weren't created by white americans themselves.

I've not done a lot of traveling abroad, but what I have done has been to central and south america. You may be speaking strictly of slurs and stereotypes within the US, but I've found that other nations are as racist or even more racist than current day USA. It never offended me that all the children in these countries would see me and their faces would beam with hope -- why should that offend? But the thought about it in retrospect is that everyone there saw me for what I am. A gringo. Gringo this. Gringo that. "I have the best deal for you, gringo. C'mere." I never strayed far from my hosts, because it's not safe for me to do otherwise.

It's not as dangerous but no less advised to stray far into Hawaii. Haoles not welcome. Go back to where you came from.

What you stated is certainly not in limited supply outside of the US.

So I think it's less that white people are reluctant to help other outside their race, and more based on the fact that it's kind of embedded in American cultural DNA to be very weary of things that are different, resist change, and preserve the "normal".

In a general sense, White people moving into a neighborhood from the perspective of minorities is usually perceived as the community coming up (or being gentrified lol), and them moving out is seen as the opposite. Whereas Minorities moving into a neighborhood from the perspective of white people is usually a sign that property values are falling and it's probably time to leave. There's even a name for this.

I think it's embedded in all cultural DNA to be weary of change, to resist it, and to want to preserve the current system. Cultures have been wiped from the earth through war, genocide, and many other ways including cultural takeovers. Assimilation.

Anecdotally, I can provide you with examples of Puerto Ricans moving into South Florida, and they love when white people move away. Land and homes are cheap. Their families can move in close by. They have no problem letting other white people know they can move out too. And they definitely don't like it when white people move into their neighborhoods. Probably because land values must be rising, as you claimed.

This is actually kind of a good, indirect example of why Affirmative Action even exists. There's nothing inherently advantageous about being xenophobic, but the cultural tenancy to CONSCIOUSLY veer away from what's different and preserve what's familiar leaks into every other aspect of society. Such a community would obviously feel a tenancy to prefer "their own" if the chance arises.

It's not unique to white people by any means, but it's true nonetheless, and when white people are the ones who hold most of the keys and wealth, then it creates an issue because the effects of this behavior become naturally become disproportionate.

It might be a good reason for affirmative action, but I believe xenophobia is possibly universal. It existed thousands of years before the US. Entire video game series have been based on the xenophobic nature of human cultures. Cultures clashing. Warring. Who shall stand the test of time? -Civilization China built the biggest wall on earth to keep the foreigners out. The biggest middle finger to Mongolian dreamers, and it still stands today but nobody calls it racist.

I kid a little with that last thought.

What's important is recognizing your own racial biases and your own predisposition to racism. True affirmative action starts with all of us consciously deciding to try to be more balanced even if it means giving a little more to one side than the other.

 

[B-universe]

To be completely honest, it took a bit of living and understanding of politics and history to actually understand why Affirmative Action is not only a positive, but a needed concept, moreso in America than most other first-world countries. I'm going to explain this in a general way so that it makes sense.



^ This is an explanation for people who think like this. I'm going to try to save you from your narrow view.


In America, "success" or "Wealth" has always been touted as this kind of thing that you work hard for, and achieve based on attrition and integrity of character. This is true in a minority of cases, but in reality, this is farthest from the truth -- the vast majority of wealth in this country is inhereted. "Wealth" is generally something you're born into, but this doesn't only count for rich people, it counts for everybody. When you're born into a family or community, you directly AND indirectly inherit whatever level of wealth, knowledge/wisdom, assets, social connections, ect. of the people in that family/community. This in turn affects your development, and thus your own competence to get ahead and generate your own wealth. This is true today just as it's been true since the dawn of humanity.

The idea that you're ultimately in control of your own path in life is technically true, but is ultimately just a very comfortable illusion we all agree to tell ourselves.

If your tribe lived in fertile lands, you ate better, got stronger, likely fought better, were more successful than those who didn't. If members of your tribe knew how/where to hunt/grow crops, then your children would too.

If you were born a farmer in the middle ages, you were expected to BE a farmer. Your access to knowledge and skills were limited.

If you were born a noble, this was quite the opposite. You had much more fluidity to mold your future, and more access to money (and thus leverage) to influence those around you.

If you were born a prince/princess.....you get it. The difference today is that there aren't any laws that FORCE you to stay in the caste you were born to, you're free to leave as long as you have the means to do so.

And that last part is where Affirmative Action and "White Privilage" comes into play. Everyone generally seems to think "White Privilege" refers to the ability to roam America without being discriminated against, but this is only surface-level true and honestly is just an emergent thing. The true "White Privilege" is the fact that your lineage has more inherent wealth than those of other races. Your access to wealth, knowledge/wisdom, assets, connections, and general range of options is inherently wider, **even when it seems as though you have absolutely nothing by comparison.**


Generally speaking....blacks in America are the descendants of slaves....but not just any kind of slavery. This was polished, deliberate, very well executed slavery, designed to completely eradicate the links to their past so that their futures could be more efficiently manipulated.

These people were separated from their extended AND immediate family, lost their language and denied the common one, religion was taken and replaced. Even if we just decide to assume that these slaves were already poor when sold to slavery, these are still aspects of their extended history, lineage, and IDENTITY that they have completely lost access to. This is somewhat different from, say, the enslavement of Jews, who were still very much jewish, just without freedom.

This would be bad on its own, but the very culture of America was designed to devalue African Americans to the point that they literally weren't even considered human beings, and this is closer to modern day than you might think (my own father was born three years after schools were desegregated and even by the time he was going to middle school (over 10 years later), he's still able to recall children AND parents protesting his basic right to an education on his way to school.)


I think anyone should start getting the picture now, but even if we assume that the abolishment of slavery was also the abolishment of discrimination (LOL) and that American citizens/police/government never deliberately targeted African American leaders / communities / role models / civil rights leaders (LOLOLOLOL) then this is already a situation in which being born Black is an inherent disadvantage simply based on the fact that you were born black. If you can accept the obvious truth that children are raised not only by parents but by a community, and that children born to good communities have far more connections/options/chances than those born otherwise.....then you have no choice but to accept that African Americans are, almost regardless of where, are born with a severe general disadvantage in society.

Factor in the war on drugs, discrimination in the judicial system and thus disproportionate incarceration rate of black men (and thus prevelance of single-parent households and thus GENERATIONS of children raised with 1/2 the wisdom and wealth of a typical household) and a bunch of other shit i'm not about to get into, and you've got the perfect formula for generational collapse.

TL;DR

Affirmative Action isn't about letting black people into schools because they're trying to reach a quota. It's a subtle acknowledgement of the fact that black people, by design of the country, have a lower chance of success per individual than others.


It's only "discrimination" if you are ignorant to the history of this country and ignore the most basic aspects of every human culture on earth.


And the reason i said this is needed in America moreso than other countries, is because America is in a unique position where they have N E V E R directly taken responsibility for the destruction (deliberate or otherwise) of african american/hispanic communities.

It would rather maintain its traditional opinion that people are responsible for their own paths, and thus, blacks were "given their own freedom" and "decided" to destroy themselves. Which, in modern times, is absolutely true....but only because there was little room for any other future path to logically take place. Every basic form of cultural foundation was removed, and then denied.

Apartheid in Africa had the exact same effect. The damage dealt to the societal structures of South Africa was so fucking extreme that affected tribes started committing genocide even after the fact. And this was in 1994. But the countries involved in South Africa have at least admitted to the atrocities, probably because it was so recent. America has never done such a thing, and likely never will.


This counts for more than just black people ofc, but you can extrapolate.

 

[LordKasual]

That's alot of videos....I'll listen it later when im idling or something.

But with no knowledge of what he's arguing, I'm just going to lead with saying that Black people being against things like Affirmative Action is not at all uncommon.

But honestly just from listening a few minutes, this guy seems to actually be touching here on exactly what i was trying to get at in that whole post.

"That productivity is a matter of culture is shown by how many groups have arrived in various countries far poorer than the existing population and have nevertheless risen above the economic level of those who were there before them."

Generally speaking....blacks in America are the descendants of slaves....but not just any kind of slavery. This was polished, deliberate, very well executed slavery, designed to completely eradicate the links to their past so that their futures could be more efficiently manipulated.

These people were separated from their extended AND immediate family, lost their language and denied the common one, religion was taken and replaced. Even if we just decide to assume that these slaves were already poor when sold to slavery, these are still aspects of their extended history, lineage, and IDENTITY that they have completely lost access to. This is somewhat different from, say, the enslavement of Jews, who were still very much jewish, just without freedom.

This would be bad on its own, but the very culture of America was designed to devalue African Americans to the point that they literally weren't even considered human beings, and this is closer to modern day than you might think

If you can accept the obvious truth that children are raised not only by parents but by a community, and that children born to good communities have far more connections/options/chances than those born otherwise.....then you have no choice but to accept that African Americans are, almost regardless of where, are born with a severe general disadvantage in society.

I don't know if I expressed this enough, but the main thing I was trying to get at regarding Affirmative Action (or slavery reparations in general) is that the problem to acknowledge isn't that America was terrible to slaves in the past, but that their actions resulted in the deliberate destruction of the culture that binded african americans together, which in turn has damaged their ability to recover.

In these examples in that snippit where he talks about immigrants.....these are people who brought their culture with them and used it to succeed.

In the case of African Americans, this not only erased the at the moment they were brought over, but was further denied for hundreds of years, and then viciously attacked even after Slavery was abolished.


In this sense, African Americans are somewhat of an anomaly as far as history and identity goes. The historical culture of African Americans is rooted around the fact that they were slaves, as the engine of American Slavery deliberately removed their past from them upon arrival for the sake of forcing dependence.

Even for other cultures/races of people who have been enslaved or had atrocities committed, this is absolutely not the case. The Holocaust is part of Jewish history, but to be jewish is so much more than that. To be a poor Chinese immigrant, your history involves struggle and poverty, but your culture extends far beyond the struggles of your immediate family.

 

[B-universe]

That's alot of videos....I'll listen it later when im idling or something.

But with no knowledge of what he's arguing, I'm just going to lead with saying that Black people being against things like Affirmative Action is not at all uncommon.

But honestly just from listening a few minutes, this guy seems to actually be touching here on exactly what i was trying to get at in that whole post.









I don't know if I expressed this enough, but the main thing I was trying to get at regarding Affirmative Action (or slavery reparations in general) is that the problem to acknowledge isn't that America was terrible to slaves in the past, but that their actions resulted in the deliberate destruction of the culture that binded african americans together, which in turn has damaged their ability to recover.

In these examples in that snippit where he talks about immigrants.....these are people who brought their culture with them and used it to succeed.

In the case of African Americans, this not only erased the at the moment they were brought over, but was further denied for hundreds of years, and then viciously attacked even after Slavery was abolished.


In this sense, African Americans are somewhat of an anomaly as far as history and identity goes. The historical culture of African Americans is rooted around the fact that they were slaves, as the engine of American Slavery deliberately removed their past from them upon arrival for the sake of forcing dependence.

Even for other cultures/races of people who have been enslaved or had atrocities committed, this is absolutely not the case. The Holocaust is part of Jewish history, but to be jewish is so much more than that. To be a poor Chinese immigrant, your history involves struggle and poverty, but your culture extends far beyond the struggles of your immediate family.

I think you really need to go though and digest Sowell's thought first.
He pulverizes all of your points.

I did not link to his videos because he's black, though. I despise identity politics. I linked to them because he's right, eloquent and exposes your points for what they are.

 

[Arkam]

content of character is all that's ever mattered to me

I agree, but if we are talking about a job or school acceptance, I would add competency and ability.

 

[Mitsuda Maniac]

Affirmative action for women? Aren't they already the large majority at US universities?

 

[zeorhymer]

Affirmative action for women? Aren't they already the large majority at US universities?

No no no no! You can't think that way. The patriarchal gate keepers are pushing down on women! *Even tho more women graduate college than men.*

 

[LordKasual]

I think you really need to go though and digest Sowell's thought first.
He pulverizes all of your points.

I did not link to his videos because he's black, though. I despise identity politics. I linked to them because he's right, eloquent and exposes your points for what they are.

I mean i'll look, but if you've digested it yourself, wouldn't it be easier to just summarize your counters?

I'm really curious as to what kind of logic he would use to "pulverize" such a simple point as that, especially when the snippit i linked to corroborated what i was suggesting in the first place.

 

[Mihos]

Through the damage our government/society has done to minorities we have put minorities who are just as capable in a disadvantaged position financially so i believe we should repay for societal losses caused by racism/slavery and discrimination.

My family is mixed race. Are you saying that half my kids should be given starting advantages over their siblings because of the color of their skin? Because we dealt with this when paying for school and it is bullshit. Assuming someone's 'advantages' in life is based on skin tone, then determining that someone else should concede opportunities based solely on skin tone is the pinnacle of racism.... you just want to be the one to choose color pallet.

 

[Reptars Revenge]

Being mixed and coming from a family of doctors I shouldn’t get a spot based on race over a poor white person with way less opportunities. I was above average on acceptance criteria in undergrad and grad so I never felt like affirmative action was a factor but still.

I really like that proposed platform where they can take a look and factor of how well you do in relation to other students at the same school or area. I love that somebody who maybe didn’t have the best scores but really stood out can be given a chance.

 

[spandexmonkey]

Minorities don't need fast lanes to cheat our way to success, we just need removal of artificial barriers based on race, which are long gone at this point. The whites who actually get some of that sweet "white privilege" didn't get it overnight. It may have taken generations. We're seeing that right now amongst minorities. My grandfather immigrated in the 50's, worked his way up to be a foreman of construction. His kids eventually became school administrators, nurses and cops. My generation has built on that and we're even further along than our parents.
We don't need liberals looking down on us and giving us pitty bux to game the system.