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[Jason's Ultimatum]

which is why I'm desperately hoping this next game is in a jungle so I can experience something similar to MGS3 but with better graphics and controls.

I actually liked the bloom lighting in the jungles of MGS3 than the lighting in MGS4. =\

 

[proposition]

I'm always speechless when someone hates MGS4. I have come to the conclusion that if you don't like it, you don't deserve it. There is no other logical explanation.

You HAVE to feel sorry for not liking it and hide in a corner. It's like having an allergy towards sex or something. You can't come out and hate on sex and pretend it's just an opinion.

And I have literally no idea how a person could equate MGS4 with sex unless that person had undergone an emergency lobotomy. And also the sex was with a fat, ugly person.

 

[Solo]

What the hell are you going on about?

MGS4 had great gameplay, and looked/sounded great, but had terrible writing, bad VA, crappy cutscenes, 3 awful acts, bad boss battles, a terrible ending, etc.

In a nutshell.

 

[SMZC]

I personally find it unbelievable that a metal gear fan that has been following the series for over a decade would be content with the way things develop/end in MGS4.

Spoiler

Kojima: Hey guys, do you want to know who the evil mastermind of the whole series is? Remember that irrelevant, secondary character from MGS3 that had a British accent and who didn't do much in the story beyond being part of a couple of humorous dialogues? Yup...

How some people can be fine with that is so beyond me.

 

[nelsonroyale]

People said the same stuff after MGS2...I enjoyed the game as well... The series needs a certain amount of suspension of disbelief... I agree that the first game was the most straight forward (although the plot was as hokey as the later games), but it was also, in my opinion, the most bland...

Snake was entirely in character in MGS4, he was never a renegade...by MGS4 he is a 'world-wary' veteran whose getting sick of the entire game...that came across very well... He more James Bond attributes in the first game...by the last he had lost his libido.

I agree that he ending was a bit silly...but it would have been a cliched cop out if he had died as well...I personally think they should have engineered a situation where snake's status at the end is unknown...

I really disliked Akiba though...ugh

?? the lighting in 3 is pretty bad compared to 4 (obviously)...the final act has some of the best lighting this gen

 

[infinityBCRT]

Worst thing is you don't even to get to exploit that awesome gameplay for most of the game. :/

I'd love to see someone time the amount of time the cutscenes took vs. gameplay throughout the 4 games. For some reason I think 4 had the worst ratio of cutscenes to gameplay and it gets worse as the game goes on.

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

relax everyone, metal gear will be good once it's announced as a multiplatform release.

 

[wRATH2x]

I personally find it unbelievable that a metal gear fan that has been following the series for over a decade would be content with the way things develop/end in MGS4.

I love MGS4. But I agree with you. Meryl marrying Johnny, Ocelot pretending, Snake's ending etc. Wasn't exactly what I wanted.

It should have ended with Snake going to Alaska and lives there for his final six months.

 

[infinityBCRT]

I actually liked the bloom lighting in the jungles of MGS3 than the lighting in MGS4. =\

Oh don't get me wrong, I loved everything about MGS3 but the 3d camera only came in subsistence and the controls still were tough to use and are even tougher to go back to after 4 (lack of crouch walking is the biggest issue IMO).

MGS4 was meant to be duller in the first few acts because they were trying to go for a deathly look. They put warm color filters on the screen like a cinematographer would do for a movie.

 

[autobzooty]

Spoiler

Kojima: Hey guys, do you want to know who the evil mastermind of the whole series is? Remember that irrelevant, secondary character from MGS3 that had a British accent and who didn't do much in the story beyond being part of a couple of humorous dialogues? Yup...

How some people can be fine with that is so beyond me.

I didn't think he was the mastermind behind the series at all...

it was

Spoiler

Ocelot

hands down.

 

[Raist]

I disagree.

With Old Snake, Kojima ignored all of the development that the character had in MGS1 and MGS2 by returning Snake to his roots; a clueless soldier who only follows orders and has absolutely no idea of what is going on. The guy doesn't even say anything during the climax of the storyline, and on top of that, the spotlight is stolen from him by a character that was supposed to be dead.

So much for MGS4 being the latest chapter of the life of the legendary Solid Snake.

I'm no hero... I never was. Never will be. I'm just an old killer, hired to do some wet work.

.

 

[Chinner]

Snake was entirely in character in MGS4, he was never a renegade...by MGS4 he is a 'world-wary' veteran whose getting sick of the entire game...that came across very well... He more James Bond attributes in the first game...by the last he had lost his libido.

Snake is not in character for MGS4. If he was in character he would of resembled something similar to himself in MGS2. Fuck man, Kojima didn't even bother to tell us why his character was totally destroyed.

Once all the MGS fans complain that they're not playing Snake in this MGS5, I'm sure we'll find out what happened in MGS6: Snake becomes emo : D.

 

[Catalix]

I disagree.

With Old Snake, Kojima ignored all of the development that the character had in MGS1 and MGS2 by returning Snake to his roots; a clueless soldier who only follows orders and has absolutely no idea of what is going on. The guy doesn't even say anything during the climax of the storyline, and on top of that, the spotlight is stolen from him by a character that was supposed to be dead.

So much for MGS4 being the latest chapter of the life of the legendary Solid Snake.

Kojima did the same sort of thing to Big Boss' character in MGS3. BB's bio prior to that game was nothing like the dude we were presented with. He retconned BB into a clueless man-child, killing much of the genuine, grounded pathos that the character had possessed beforehand.

Seems you're not allowed to be a MGS protagonist unless you're a passive blank slate being tugged around wherever the plot twists dictate. God forbid the character you are controlling actually be presented as savvy and showing some initiative (like MGS2 Snake).

Spoiler

Solid Snake needed permission from his daddy to enjoy the peace he fought to facilitate? ugh.

 

[norinrad21]

I haven't read the whole thread yet, what exactly did they reveal?

 

[DieH@rd]

Its kind of funny that the first MGS game to have amazing gameplay totally shit the bed in every other area, graphics/sound design aside.

WTF?! MGS1 was the best looking/sounding game of that time! It blew EVERYTHING AWAY!

 

[autobzooty]

I haven't read the whole thread yet, what exactly did they reveal?

 

[Omikaru]

Seems you're not allowed to be a MGS protagonist unless you're a passive blank slate being tugged around wherever the plot twists dictate. God forbid the character you are controlling actually be presented as savvy and showing some initiative (like MGS2 Snake).

In a pre-MGS3 interview with Kojima in Official PS2 Mag UK, Kojima pretty much said this is the reason why we'd never play Solid Snake again, and was in part an explanation for Raiden, who allowed us to see this new Snake. Once you take control of Snake again, however, he has to regress.

Such a shame.

 

[Muffdraul]

MGS4 had great gameplay, and looked/sounded great, but had [...] bad boss battles

Ex-fucking-scuse me? MGS4 might have had somewhat lame bosses in terms of characters in the narrative... but the actual battles themselves were at least as good as the boss battles in the rest of the series, and better than most. The only obvious exception would be The End.

 

[nelsonroyale]

Snake is not in character for MGS4. If he was in character he would of resembled something similar to himself in MGS2. Fuck man, Kojima didn't even bother to tell us why his character was totally destroyed.

Once all the MGS fans complain that they're not playing Snake in this MGS5, I'm sure we'll find out what happened in MGS6: Snake becomes emo : D.

what are you talking about...you contradict me and provide no proof. Output doesn't exist without process...

 

[dogmaan]

Spoiler

Kojima: Hey guys, do you want to know who the evil mastermind of the whole series is? Remember that irrelevant, secondary character from MGS3 that had a British accent and who didn't do much in the story beyond being part of a couple of humorous dialogues? Yup...

How some people can be fine with that is so beyond me.

whats funny is, the mastermind of the entire MGS series comes from

Spoiler

Exeter, a bloody devonshire mastermind

lol

 

[Solo]

WTF?! MGS1 was the best looking/sounding game of that time! It blew EVERYTHING AWAY!

....

I said nothing about MGS1's production values. I said MGS4 finally has great gameplay (the first MG game to achieve this) and graphics/sound, and sucks in every other way.

 

[autobzooty]

what are you talking about...you contradict me and provide no proof. Output doesn't exist without process...

he did provide proof, he said that Snake should have been more like he was in MGS2.

 

[Solo]

Ex-fucking-scuse me? MGS4 might have had somewhat lame bosses in terms of characters in the narrative... but the actual battles themselves were at least as good as the boss battles in the rest of the series, and better than most. The only obvious exception would be The End.

I can barely remember the MGS4 boss fights a year later, they were so ho-hum.

 

[StarEye]

I liked the boss battles in MGS4, and I liked all of the acts - although Act 4 was mainly because of nostalgia and wanting a remake of MGS1 with the MGS4 engine. The MGS3 boss battles weren't much better.

But I loved the Laughing Octopus, Raging Raven was decent, Screaming Mantis was excellent (although not quite Psycho Mantis). Not much fan of the Crying Wolf though, simply because it took too long and sniper boss battles where both is a sniper is much more fun.

What I didn't like was the overly long cutscenes, globetrotting instead of one big well-designed area like in all the other MGSs, Akiba shitting his pants was cringeworthy, the ending and the length of Act 5 (it was too short, and had little to no sneaking in it).

MGS4 needs a director's cut (with an alternative or simply different ending), and it'd be the first ever director's cut that would actually be shorter than the original.

 

[The End]

They're releasing a version of MGS4 that cuts out the epilogue completely. The game ends with snake gasping for breath on the tower after defeating Ocelot, you hear his breathing slow and as he struggles for breath, the credits roll.

 

[SMZC]

Kojima did the same sort of thing to Big Boss' character in MGS3. BB's bio prior to that game was nothing like the dude we were presented with. He retconned BB into a clueless man-child, killing much of the genuine, grounded pathos that the character had possessed beforehand.

Seems you're not allowed to be a MGS protagonist unless you're a passive blank slate being tugged around wherever the plot twists dictate. God forbid the character you are controlling actually be presented as savvy and showing some initiative (like MGS2 Snake).

Spoiler

Solid Snake needed permission from his daddy to enjoy the peace he fought to facilitate? ugh.

Oh, I fully agree. I wasn't too happy with MGS3's portrayal of Big Boss, but at least I think that the way the ending makes you think about how the character is going to turn out was genius. Big Boss saluting the grave said much more to me than all of Old Snake's journey in MGS4.

As for Raiden, he was your typical rookie that has no idea of... well, anything. But at least he had a personality, he questions things instead of just following orders like a tool, and I think he had some very nice character development.

 

[Muffdraul]

I can barely remember the MGS4 boss fights a year later, they were so ho-hum.

There you go, the flaw is your shitty memory, not the boss battles.

 

[infinityBCRT]

Spoiler

Kojima: Hey guys, do you want to know who the evil mastermind of the whole series is? Remember that irrelevant, secondary character from MGS3 that had a British accent and who didn't do much in the story beyond being part of a couple of humorous dialogues? Yup...

How some people can be fine with that is so beyond me.

Spoiler

I'd lie if I said I thought Zero was the biggest baddy FOR SURE after MGS3, but from the ending sequence one thing that I think a lot of people gloss over is the way Eva tells her story of The Boss' sacrifice and how the ending scenes play out.

- Zero is front and centre when Eva is talking about how the mission was a big set up
- Big Boss is disillusioned with the celebration with the President, hes quite disgusted with his country
- As Big Boss is walking in the graveyard alone, Eva talks about the taint of disgrace that will follow The Boss to her grave, future generations will revile her, she'll go down in history as a war criminal, no one will understand her, everything she did was for her country, she was a true patriot, etc. At the time I thought that was Kojima also trying to tell us that history repeated itself and Big Boss has the taint of disgrace through history but he was also a true patriot and we never really knew the truth about him.

So things did kinda point towards Zero being the bad guy in terms of playing up Big Boss as the big bad guy later on. I think Kojima just didn't make it up when MGS4 came along, but I do think few people picked up on what he was trying to express at the end of MGS3.

 

[Chinner]

There you go, the flaw is your shitty memory, not the boss battles.

The flaw is that you're a rabid fanboy. Solo is right and his opinion is mighty, do not question it unless you have a actual argument to present.

 

[Omikaru]

he did provide proof, he said that Snake should have been more like he was in MGS2.

The problem with that is that MGS2 Snake was wise. He knew all the tricks, he had a good sense of what was going on and, quite frankly, he wasn't a naive idiot.

To take a player through an MGS-type game, complete with twists and turns, the staple requirement of the protagonist is to be a simple minded naive fool who makes a turning point towards or at the end, and is wiser for it.

I'm not defending Kojima's decision to make Snake a dumbass in MGS4, but that's why he did it. The fact that we're playing as Snake in MGS4 is a testament to how ill conceived the game is. In honesty, we should've been seeing the events of MGS4 through the eyes of a new character; watching Snake as an oldie from that perspective would've been more impactful.

That said, I can see why Kojima made Snake playable in MGS4;

Spoiler

Big Boss became his new favourite character after MGS3, and he wanted to develop him some more instead. He's the kind of character who would be developed stronger through Snake's perspective considering their familial ties, even though his whole inclusion into MGS4 is utter wank.

 

[Solo]

There you go, the flaw is your shitty memory, not the boss battles.

And yet my shitty memory recalls every last nuance of battles such as Grey Fox, Sniper Wolf, The End, The Sorrow, etc.

 

[Oni Jazar]

MGS4 needs a director's cut (with an alternative or simply different ending), and it'd be the first ever director's cut that would actually be shorter than the original.

MGS4 needs an "Editor's Cut" :lol

 

[SMZC]

Spoiler

I'd lie if I said I thought Zero was the biggest baddy FOR SURE after MGS3, but from the ending sequence one thing that I think a lot of people gloss over is the way Eva tells her story of The Boss' sacrifice and how the ending scenes play out.

- Zero is front and centre when Eva is talking about how the mission was a big set up
- Big Boss is disillusioned with the celebration with the President, hes quite disgusted with his country
- As Big Boss is walking in the graveyard alone, Eva talks about the taint of disgrace that will follow The Boss to her grave, future generations will revile her, she'll go down in history as a war criminal, no one will understand her, everything she did was for her country, she was a true patriot, etc. At the time I thought that was Kojima also trying to tell us that history repeated itself and Big Boss has the taint of disgrace through history but he was also a true patriot and we never really knew the truth about him.

So things did kinda point towards Zero being the bad guy in terms of playing up Big Boss as the big bad guy later on. I think Kojima just didn't make it up when MGS4 came along, but I do think few people picked up on what he was trying to express at the end of MGS3.

Spoiler

Well, you can pretty much say "Patriots" instead of Zero, and the point would remain. I mean... Zero the founder of the Patriots? After all the mystery from MGS2 regarding the Wisemen Committee, the Patriots end up being just a bunch of secondary, forgettable characters from MGS3? Really, Kojima? Really?

 

[Omikaru]

Spoiler

So things did kinda point towards Zero being the bad guy in terms of playing up Big Boss as the big bad guy later on. I think Kojima just didn't make it up when MGS4 came along, but I do think few people picked up on what he was trying to express at the end of MGS3.

Spoiler

Big Boss was pissed off at Zero because he was lied to about his objectives. Zero was probably in on that plot too, even if he disagreed with it and was just as angry afterwards (which his resulting actions in trying to create The Boss' dream suggest, in some way, he was).

The whole Zero being one of the founding members of the Patriots was hairballed when they made Portable Ops as a sort of feeder story into MGS4.

They needed a way to tie MGS3 into MGS4, and that was their ticket;

Spoiler

a rag tag gang of characters from MGS3's radio schemed to take over the world.

Marvellous.

 

[Chinner]

The problem with that is that MGS2 Snake was wise. He knew all the tricks, he had a good sense of what was going on and, quite frankly, he wasn't a naive idiot.

To take a player through an MGS-type game, complete with twists and turns, the staple requirement of the protagonist is to be a simple minded naive fool who makes a turning point towards or at the end, and is wiser for it.

I'm not defending Kojima's decision to make Snake a dumbass in MGS4, but that's why he did it. The fact that we're playing as Snake in MGS4 is a testament to how ill conceived the game is. In honesty, we should've been seeing the events of MGS4 through the eyes of a new character; watching Snake as an oldie from that perspective would've been more impactful.

That said, I can see why Kojima made Snake playable in MGS4;

Spoiler

Big Boss became his new favourite character after MGS3, and he wanted to develop him some more instead. He's the kind of character who would be developed stronger through Snake's perspective considering their familial ties, even though his whole inclusion into MGS4 is utter wank.

Kojima's reasoning is somewhat sound, but if he tried a different story structure/was a competent writer this wouldn't be a issue.

 

[DangerStepp]

MGS4 needs an "Editor's Cut" :lol

It would take more than one.

MGS4 wasn't so much a disappointment as it was an epiphany that I wasn't as invested as I was in the previous games. I was just along for the ride.

It felt hollow in ways.

Spoiler

Well, you can pretty much say "Patriots" instead of Zero, and the point would remain. I mean... Zero the founder of the Patriots? After all the mystery from MGS2 regarding the Wisemen Committee, the Patriots end up being just a bunch of secondary, forgettable characters from MGS3? Really, Kojima? Really?

My sentiments exactly! A total mystery thrown to the wayside--it was what made MGS2 so grand.

 

[WrikaWrek]

I personally find it unbelievable that a metal gear fan that has been following the series for over a decade would be content with the way things develop/end in MGS4.

I believe the real fan is the one who has been playing every single Metal Gear Solid, and more than once at that, and knows how hard MGS4 failed in many areas. Only half of that game is worth the praise a MGS deserves.

Other fans aren't fans, they are just "looney fans" that eat up anything.

 

[Foxtastical]

And yet my shitty memory recalls every last nuance of battles such as Grey Fox, Sniper Wolf, The End, The Sorrow, etc.

I like you, and you're right about MGS4.

 

[Omikaru]

Kojima's reasoning is somewhat sound, but if he tried a different story structure/was a competent writer this wouldn't be a issue.

Oh definitely, but there's a shred of reason behind the madness indeed. As much as the initial idea is bollocks, he's thought it through as best as he could. In my view, I would've taken the whole project to the drawing board when I saw the first signs that the story was looking like a turd.

 

[Xun]

Screw the haters, MGS4 is awesome.

I must be one of the only few to have enjoyed all of the MGS games.

 

[Foxtastical]

I believe the real fan is the one who has been playing every single Metal Gear Solid, and more than once at that, and knows how hard MGS4 failed in many areas. Only half of that game is worth the praise a MGS deserves.

Other fans aren't fans, they are just "looney fans" that eat up anything.

The first one isn't a fan, just someone who enjoys entertaining and interesting media.

The second one is a fan just like any other fan of a certain franchise. A fool that'll lap it all up.

 

[SMZC]

Kojima's reasoning is somewhat sound, but if he tried a different story structure/was a competent writer this wouldn't be a issue.

Exactly my thoughts. MGS4's story is too formulaic for its own good.

 

[DangerStepp]

Screw the haters, MGS4 is awesome.

I must be one of the only few to have enjoyed all of the MGS games.

No, you're just one of the few to deny that it's flawed.

It's easily the weakest game in the series. It's good--just not as good as the previous games.

 

[Muffdraul]

do not question it unless you have a actual argument to present.

If he'd provided an argument, I would have provided a counter argument. As it stands, all he did was say that "MGS4 has bad boss battles." Which I disagree with, especially relative to the boss battles in the previous MGS games. I think he's confusing "lousy boss characters" with "bad boss battles". MGS4's boss battles were more complex and involved than any other MGS boss battles. How can that not be a plus?

 

[WrikaWrek]

The first one isn't a fan, just a fan of entertaining and interesting media.

The second one is a fan just like any other fan of a certain franchise. A fool that'll lap it all up.

I see what you're saying. My definition of a fan is misguided. If you aren't psycho crazy about a thing, you aren't a fan of it specifically.

But i think i'm a fan.

I've finished MGs4 4 times, even though i should always stop halfway through.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

Screw the haters, MGS4 is awesome.

I must be one of the only few to have enjoyed all of the MGS games.

For me, it goes MGS3>MGS2>MGS1>MGS4

 

[infinityBCRT]

Spoiler

Well, you can pretty much say "Patriots" instead of Zero, and the point would remain. I mean... Zero the founder of the Patriots? After all the mystery from MGS2 regarding the Wisemen Committee, the Patriots end up being just a bunch of secondary, forgettable characters from MGS3? Really, Kojima? Really?

Spoiler

To be fair, Big Boss, Ocelot and Donald Anderson are pretty big characters throughout the series

 

[ZeoVGM]

Its kind of funny that the first MGS game to have amazing gameplay totally shit the bed in every other area, graphics/sound design aside.

MGS3 had amazing gameplay. Fantastic game on every level.

You two are Mr. and Mrs Negativity, in like, every thread you guys post in.

I'll let you argue over who has the vagina.

 

[Lord Error]

And yet my shitty memory recalls every last nuance of battles such as Grey Fox, Sniper Wolf, The End, The Sorrow, etc.

The battle against Octopus was extremely well concocted and memorable I thought, with her changing shapes and hiding herself creatively. The Wolf battle as well, with all that snow and sniping. I dunno, actual setups and especially gameplay during those fights were better than in first MGS for sure. Raven and Mantis werent' that good on the other hand, but I think Octopus at least ranks amongst the best MGS boss fights - and it helps that they introduce her with a really effective and creepy cutscene at the beginning of that chapter.

I can understand a lot of complaints about MGS4, but when it comes down to it, its still one of the games I had the most fun with in the last few years, and that to me matters more than retconning, story consistency with previous games, and introduction of characters I didn't like (Akiba).

 

[DangerStepp]

For me, it goes MGS3>MGS2>MGS1>MGS4

Let's be friends. You seem sane enough to qualify.

And to the earlier discussion: MGS1's voice work is orders of magnitude better than any other installment in the series.