freethought
Member
TGO said:
Close enough.
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Possible Kojima Productions Reveal in Three Days?
- Thread starter FrankT
- Start date
Close enough.
sentry65 said:
I used to say that MGS4 had the best gameplay of the series, but the more I think about it, the more I think the very camouflage mechanic has ruined the series' gameplay, in a way.
The gameplay in MGS2 was tight. You have to advance carefully, looking around corners and finding in the environment places to hide in; and the levels are designed with that in mind.
Now, move forward to MGS3 and the introduction of the camouflage system. While it is true that, from a visual standpoint, the level design of MGS3 looks much nicer than MGS2's, in the end, it has no impact whatsoever in the gameplay. The gameplay revolves around the idea of laying down and changing your camo so that it matches the texture of the ground. The level design almost never comes into play, effectively turning the gameplay into what could be summarized as follows: "Lie down, change camo, shoot guards with the tranquilizer gun while they are completely unable to see you".
MGS4 added a few tweaks, making the camouflage game mechanic much smoother and intuitive, but the concept is still the same, and the level design still doesn't come into play very much. I just wish the next MGS ditches the whole camouflage thing altogether and goes back to the days of sneaking in closed, smaller areas where you're forced to evade the enemy's sight instead of simply making him believe that you're part of the tree that is next to him.
infinityBCRT
Member
MGS3 had larger areas (than 2) with guards who had better vision and longer patrol routes. Also there were no higher grass, swamp/creek or cave areas in MGS2, all which played pretty differently.SMZC said:
The camouflage didn't bother me. I didn't spend much time with it. There's a standard camo that you can use which keeps you at 50-60% most of the time and you only needed to change when you were in a tough spot with lots of enemies and/or low health.
SMZC said:
you know, you're right.
The camo system is neat, and I think it made sense to have out in the jungle where you can't hide behind walls etc, but I did have a hard time buying into it when you're inside a building and a guard would walk within 15 feet of you and not see you because you have a 85% camo ratio. You could just start running down a long hallway and it didn't matter if a guard was there, he apparently couldn't see you running towards him.
It was nice to automate the camo in MGS4 instead of always going into a bunch of menus and it was neat to play a game with it, but it is too much of a crutch.
Honestly inside buildings, I think your camo should just not have any effect at all.
SMZC said:
You know, I kind of agree. Especially if it's an infiltration mission like in MGS1 and 2. Giving Snake/whoever an outfit that actually fits with the scenery in the first place, to make him less obvious, but still able to be seen. Also, hiding in the shadows wondering if he'll ever see you instead of just hugging the wall, putting on the right camo and look at the camo percentage, is much more exciting.
To be honest, I rarely used the camo in MGS3. I just chose one that looked decent, and somewhat fit in with the background. In MGS4, you almost had no choice, since everytime you leaned against something or lay down, your camo changes automatically.
Not only the camo, but I want sparsity to be part of the gameplay again. In MGS1, you even started off without a gun, only your cigarettes. It was YOUR job to collect your equipment. I like getting into a situation where I realize I don't have the correct equipment, and have to search the area or different areas for it, so that I can progress through the game. Like the sniper rifle and the RPG in MGS1. Things like this made it feel a lot more intense and claustrophobic, and it gave the setting more character and made it more believable, for some reason.
I've been thinking about it, and I reckon MGS4 could of worked if the story itself was more aggressive. To explain, every MGS story has been based on a reaction to something happening (Terrorists pretty much seize a place forcing the good guys to react) which basically put the characters/players on the underfoot with them unable to dictate their own terms. It would of been interesting if it was the good guys making a plan, gathering intel'n'shit and making a eventual offense (I'm guessing Philanthropy had more members than just Snake and Otacon). Would of been different and interesting, perhaps.SMZC said:
DangerStepp
Member
My hype has hit its peak..
The worst that could happen right now is to find out it's another installment of P.O. on PSP.
The worst that could happen right now is to find out it's another installment of P.O. on PSP.
Yea...being able to just BUY any gun was pretty lame and using the enemy's weapons was pretty lame. Hunting for things wasnt much fun either because everything was pretty much right there.StarEye said:
With MGS 2 and MGS1 even, they had that metroid feel. Where you had to backtrack, with a new item you've just retrieved, to access new areas. That was one of the great things about having 1 area/environment. You'd pass all of these LVL 2/LVL 3 doors that you couldnt access. Then you would get the LVL 2/3 cards and have to remember where you saw that LVL 2/3 door and then go open the door to find a bunch of ammo and new guns/items. It was VERY rewarding.
It wasnt like that at all in MGS4.
mr_nothin said:
Don't touch my Octocamo. >:/
Expand gameplay around it perhaps, but removing it? No way.
The ability to blend with the environment added a much needed flexibility to stealth tactics. And it also made the whole infiltration process faster. Less "wait and see". Previously all you had to do was learn enemy patterns and jump between hiding spots accordingly. And this gets repetitive and boring after a while. New guarded room = new "stealth" puzzle to solve. I got enough of that.
I think it should be more like the "nightvision/thermal goggles" items and have a battery that runs out and has to be recharged. But the recharge takes a longer period of time and it has to be at least 50% charged before you can use it again. I think that would mix it up.TTP said:
Also, maybe you have to collect different "materials" for the octocam to be able to hide against certain types of walls or whatever. You cant just automatically camoflauge with any type of material. (that may get confusing though).
But being able to use it all the time and anywhere? Eh, not really into it anymore.
Chinner said:You know what I miss from MGS1? How at the beginning your life bar was small and then every time you defeated a boss it would increase. It made me feel like I was making progression.
I forgot about all of that.
I think they've just been trying to "westernize" MGS.
freethought
Member
I may be alone but I think the camouflage system is much better than the old vision cones. They basically had the same effect anyway, only the camo system allowed some creativity when placing the safe spots on a map (like the tree SMZC offered as an example). Having it menu-driven in MGS3 was a disaster though, terrible choice. I do think the Otocamo worked well in MGS4.
The main problem I found with MGS4 was the game was just a bit too easy. It plays well on Hard and I think Extreme is tweaked almost perfectly in regards to everything but the boss battles. You really have to work to make them difficult. The actual gameplay though, I thought was balanced well. European Extreme wouldn't have gone amiss, add that in and I'd be happy
The main problem I found with MGS4 was the game was just a bit too easy. It plays well on Hard and I think Extreme is tweaked almost perfectly in regards to everything but the boss battles. You really have to work to make them difficult. The actual gameplay though, I thought was balanced well. European Extreme wouldn't have gone amiss, add that in and I'd be happy
ShadowKingpin
Member
shagg_187 said:
I still think the S is really a 5 and the rest stands for: Metal Gear Solid 5 @ E3 (No idea what the lowercase "e" stands for) Press Release
Sorry if that seemed a little lame. :-S I tried...
EmCeeGramr
Member
ur never gonna get that again, health regen will be in every game from now onChinner said:You know what I miss from MGS1? How at the beginning your life bar was small and then every time you defeated a boss it would increase. It made me feel like I was making progression.
Chinner said:You know what I miss from MGS1? How at the beginning your life bar was small and then every time you defeated a boss it would increase. It made me feel like I was making progression.
That too. It's one of those things that are so typical old gameplay elements and features that I love. I don't care about realism, I want these things in my games. Games trying to deny they're games are one of my main gripes with games these days.
mr_nothin said:
What's the problem with that? Guards do still spot you if you are close enough and moving. If anything, it was almost a necessity in the contest of the bigger environments, the new camera system and the increased enemy detection skills.
Edit: added some text in my previous post
freethought said:
you're so right
IMO the game is completely unbalanced as far as the boss difficulty vs normal gameplay.
If I play MGS3 or 4 on a harder setting, I still breeze through the main game, but the bosses are tough as hell to the point something's just not right.
I want the main game to really ramp up the difficulty, not just mainly the boss fights
LALILULELO
Neo Member
I agree that the camo in 4 made some parts "too easy" that the level design itself wasnt as tight as in 1,2 or even 3. I think the camo can still be there, the level design etc just need to dictate better where its usefull and where it isnt.
In MGS 3 there were some locations where the camo was basically useless and the good ol' cardboard box worked better (or avoiding the guards completely)
One location/setting would help getting the MGS feeling back too, you really knew the Shadow moses base, the Big shell or even the MGS3 jungle with its little bases and Groznygrad in a metroid/castlevania sense. You were there a long time passing locations multiple times. And no buying ammo and weapons anymore please!
p.s also bring back the soldier interrogations from 3 and the dog tags!
In MGS 3 there were some locations where the camo was basically useless and the good ol' cardboard box worked better (or avoiding the guards completely)
One location/setting would help getting the MGS feeling back too, you really knew the Shadow moses base, the Big shell or even the MGS3 jungle with its little bases and Groznygrad in a metroid/castlevania sense. You were there a long time passing locations multiple times. And no buying ammo and weapons anymore please!
p.s also bring back the soldier interrogations from 3 and the dog tags!
infinityBCRT
Member
I'm not a big fan of Octocamo but I think the MGS3 camo system gave a nice balance. It gave a believable way for enemies not to see you from a distance (where in MGS1/2 the guards were legally blind) but still made it challenging to navigate the jungle. The level with the chopper would never be possible sans camo.TTP said:
you know, still to this day I can't remember the layout of the Big Shell. I remember most of the places on it, but not the total layout.
I mean really.
Hexes within a giant hex, connected to another hex that also is made up of smaller hexes? All labeled by letters and bridges with letters? AGH! ...The ship had a nice layout though
I remember the layouts for the original MG 1 and 2, MGS1, and MGS3 like the back of my hand though...even snake's revenge. MGS4 I remember pretty well too for the most part, but MGS 2's map/layout was hard to remember IMO
I mean really.
Hexes within a giant hex, connected to another hex that also is made up of smaller hexes? All labeled by letters and bridges with letters? AGH! ...The ship had a nice layout though
I remember the layouts for the original MG 1 and 2, MGS1, and MGS3 like the back of my hand though...even snake's revenge. MGS4 I remember pretty well too for the most part, but MGS 2's map/layout was hard to remember IMO
MGS 2 and 3 are practically polar opposites of each other:
scrawny long haired blond newbie who asks questions all the time vs bad-ass halo jumping, brutal, eye patch wearing killer who gets laid
clean high tech environment and hiding in lockers vs the dirty jungle and crawling through the mud
crying otacon vs a chick who strips for you
taking pictures and uploading them vs planting C3 to blow shit up
eating rations vs eating rotten frogs, bugs, and aligators
getting electrocuted vs getting your arms and legs broken, your eye shot out, shrapnel lodged in your body, leaches, poisoned, etc
doing cartwheels vs CQC beating people to death
Fighting Doc Octapus vs being forced to kill your mentor/friend/mom figure
scrawny long haired blond newbie who asks questions all the time vs bad-ass halo jumping, brutal, eye patch wearing killer who gets laid
clean high tech environment and hiding in lockers vs the dirty jungle and crawling through the mud
crying otacon vs a chick who strips for you
taking pictures and uploading them vs planting C3 to blow shit up
eating rations vs eating rotten frogs, bugs, and aligators
getting electrocuted vs getting your arms and legs broken, your eye shot out, shrapnel lodged in your body, leaches, poisoned, etc
doing cartwheels vs CQC beating people to death
Fighting Doc Octapus vs being forced to kill your mentor/friend/mom figure
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
The ONLY problem I had with MGS3:S was that after experience the awesomeness of the new camera, it only reverted back to top down when you fought the boss at the end. :lol
Oh and the CQC moves were awesome at the end of the fight. I wish the entire game had counters and shit like that.
One more thing.........nothing beats The End fight.
Oh and the CQC moves were awesome at the end of the fight. I wish the entire game had counters and shit like that.
One more thing.........nothing beats The End fight.
EmCeeGramr
Member
sentry65 said:
who asks questions all the time and thinks that mushrooms replenish batteries and gets scared when a woman crawls towards him in her underwear
as opposed to raiden, who gets laid regularly and knocked up a chick with his NOT useless balls
infinityBCRT
Member
sentry65 said:
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Catalix
And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
As long as we're talking future gameplay tweaks, I wish tranq darts were more scarce.
Ever since MGS2 I've been abusing the hell outta those shits.
Ever since MGS2 I've been abusing the hell outta those shits.
Callibretto
Member
SMZC said:
I think MGS4 has the best level design of all mgs games. what I like about it is that it's big, with multiple path to approach the target and give the players tons of option.
in mgs 1/2, the closed environment kinda forced you to go to specific path. the options you have during gameplay is on how to take on your enemies. mgs 3 give some more open environment and now you have more option to make use of your environment as well as how to take on your enemies. mgs 4 is simple the evolution of these changes.
the point is, more open environment give you more options on how to play the game. it also give more replayability since I can try to approach the same level from totally different direction. I always think Kojima game is all about choices he give you as the player.
Basically my personal favorite thing about MGS4. People saying "10% gameplay 90% movie hurrr" don't know what the fuck they're talking about. If you don't like replayability, fine. But I sure want it in a game that's 60 bucks. Finished the game over 10 times and each playthrough was unique.Callibretto said:
GeneralIroh
Member
It would be neat if mgs5's story was told with flashbacks like lost.
Have the game start out with raiden in the present breaking into area 51 to look or sunny. Havinging him caught then you get flashes backs as big boss.
When raiden wakes up he gets clues through flash back missions to where big boss's corpse is hidden.
I think the game would be more tense if the tranq was more scarce. It would force u to choose between getting close to enemy for a silent take down or attacking from far with a loud weapon.
I miss how you can torment your enemies in mgs2 and mgs3. They felt more alive. MGS4's enemies weren't as fun to fight because they all reacted the same where ever you shot them.
I want more missions where you acquire the enemy's uniform to infiltrate. Maybe they should make the game even deeper by adding in some kind of text tree where you first have to eavesdrop on the enemy before you can gain quote options to talk to other enemies while in disguise.
Have the game start out with raiden in the present breaking into area 51 to look or sunny. Havinging him caught then you get flashes backs as big boss.
When raiden wakes up he gets clues through flash back missions to where big boss's corpse is hidden.
I think the game would be more tense if the tranq was more scarce. It would force u to choose between getting close to enemy for a silent take down or attacking from far with a loud weapon.
I miss how you can torment your enemies in mgs2 and mgs3. They felt more alive. MGS4's enemies weren't as fun to fight because they all reacted the same where ever you shot them.
I want more missions where you acquire the enemy's uniform to infiltrate. Maybe they should make the game even deeper by adding in some kind of text tree where you first have to eavesdrop on the enemy before you can gain quote options to talk to other enemies while in disguise.
Charmicarmicat
Banned
Not trying to sound like a troll but you guys who dislike the Octocamo realise it can be essentially turned off right? Just go into the menu and set it to manual, then you have back the need to sneak through the levels again. What i did for the first 2 levels is put on the Militia costumes for the relevant level and then just use them with the rule of not changing. They offer a certain amount of camo for their respective level, but mostly you will be relying on sneaking.
Choke on the Magic
Banned
Charmicarmicat said:
Not sure how anyone would call you a troll for being right.
Catalix
And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
Nah, for a stealth game, tranq weapons have become a hallmark. I just think ammo should be so ridiculously rare and sacred, that it would only be used as a last resort. Like you always have to triple-think before firing off that shot.BigBoss said:
There's zero risk involved with the way tranq weapons are handled in the recent games. I hardly feel compelled to use CQC. I should have to stick my neck out much more often if I decide to takedown a guard.
GeneralIroh
Member
lol wut?Orlics said:
MGS2 has a shitty plot that started the whole mess.
Mgs3 has better gameplay than mgs2.
EmCeeGramr
Member
Orlics said:
....This is actually very accurate. Good job.