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[Afro Republican]

Lockhart in of itself is pure confusion!!!! We shouldn't blame each other. If these rumors are true, this will be super stupid of MS. It'll be as dumb as Xbox One (TV, TV, TV), builtin Kinect, and X360 Arcade (with no HDD).

Lockheart being a cheaper streaming/digital only box would actually make sense and wouldn't be confusing at all. The only argument would be that you could debate they could cannibalize each other but only to a certain extent since there's a huge physical and power market, and you need a good internet connection for streaming.

A 1080p device when we already have Three 1080p Xboxs on the market would be confusing, because it makes the jump in technical specs pointless. It will also confuse people on what to buy at the store. It would be worse than the Wii U.

 

[Stuart360]

Plus i dont really see how it could backfire. 'I really want the new Xbox but there are 2 versions, what do i do?....er......i'll just buy PS5 instead'

 

[mckmas8808]

Lockheart being a cheaper streaming/digital only box would actually make sense and wouldn't be confusing at all. The only argument would be that you could debate they could cannibalize each other but only to a certain extent since there's a huge physical and power market, and you need a good internet connection for streaming.

A 1080p device when we already have Three 1080p Xboxs on the market would be confusing, because it makes the jump in technical specs pointless. It will also confuse people on what to buy at the store. It would be worse than the Wii U.

But if Lockhart can't play discs then surely the price isn't going to be too cheap or Walmart, Target, and Best Buy wouldn't bother selling it.

 

[Afro Republican]

1080p tv's are still widespread

The fact you are going to double down on a broken argument is pointless. Almost all 4k devices downscale now, and for Xbox, with the X, they do the down scaling pretty damn good and you get a better picture than if the game was optimized only for 1080p/

So they are just going to drop that to give us a 4TH 1080p Xbox console?

Helooo?????

Did you guys forget the Xbox One S all digital is $250? It would make more sense to charge that for a 4k Streaming all digital box than to charge $250 for a 1080p console.

 

[Afro Republican]

But if Lockhart can't play discs then surely the price isn't going to be too cheap or Walmart, Target, and Best Buy wouldn't bother selling it.

$250 isn't too cheap.

 

[Stuart360]

The fact you are going to double down on a broken argument is pointless. Almost all 4k devices downscale now, and for Xbox, with the X, they do the down scaling pretty damn good and you get a better picture than if the game was optimized only for 1080p/

So they are just going to drop that to give us a 4TH 1080p Xbox console?

Helooo?????

Did you guys forget the Xbox One S all digital is $250? It would make more sense to charge that for a 4k Streaming all digital box than to charge $250 for a 1080p console.

But the 1080p box is supposed to be cheaper as well. A lot of causals and parents etc probably dont even know what downscaling is, they probably dont even know you could use a 4k system on a 1080p tv. All it is is giving consumers 1 extra option. If no one buys it then Microsoft can bin it and stick with the 4k box.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

If MS does release a 4tf Lockhart, can it still outperform X due to better cpu and ram?

So X might have an extra 2tf, but Lockhart can still churn out better games?

Or would X's 2tf likely still going to be better overall?

 

[mckmas8808]

$250 isn't too cheap.

But Lockhart can't be $250 if it will have 12 GBs of RAM, a Zen2 CPU, chopped down Navi GPU and a NVMe HDD.

If MS does release a 4tf Lockhart, can it still outperform X due to better cpu and ram?

So X might have an extra 2tf, but Lockhart can still churn out better games?

Or would X's 2tf likely still going to be better overall?

The fact that you even have to ask this question, shows why MS making Lockhart and Anaconda at the same time is too confusing and dumb for them.

 

[Afro Republican]

But the 1080p box is supposed to be cheaper as well. A lot of causals and parents etc probably dont even know what downscaling is, they probably dont even know you could use a 4k system on a 1080p tv. All it is is giving consumers 1 extra option. If no one buys it then Microsoft can bin it and stick with the 4k box.

None of this make sense, the reason why the Xbox One X had the downscaling to be so good was because people were going to buy it for their 1080p displays (even has the note on the box) hey are going to see a new XBox, they are going to buy it, and they will plug it into their TV's.

It wouldn't make any sense to have a $399 Xbox One S, a $250 Xbox One S all Digital, and then charge $250-$300 for another 1080p device for lockheart.

You get a $250 4K streaming all digital console for lockheart, simular to the new S model, you pay another $200 for the much more powerful, high-end, disc based console. Only those with great connections and low cap will even get the lockheart unless they only want digital gamepass games, and even those won't look at good.

The Streaming box will likely be shipped in lower quantities than the more powerful one.

 

[bitbydeath]

If MS does release a 4tf Lockhart, can it still outperform X due to better cpu and ram?

So X might have an extra 2tf, but Lockhart can still churn out better games?

Or would X's 2tf likely still going to be better overall?

I can see them evening out which is why I’m thinking Lockhart is a replacement to bring the cost down.

 

[Stuart360]

None of this make sense, the reason why the Xbox One X had the downscaling to be so good was because people were going to buy it for their 1080p displays (even has the note on the box) hey are going to see a new XBox, they are going to buy it, and they will plug it into their TV's.

It wouldn't make any sense to have a $399 Xbox One S, a $250 Xbox One S all Digital, and then charge $250-$300 for another 1080p device for lockheart.

You get a $250 4K streaming all digital console for lockheart, simular to the new S model, you pay another $200 for the much more powerful, high-end, disc based console. Only those with great connections and low cap will even get the lockheart unless they only want digital gamepass games, and even those won't look at good.

The Streaming box will likely be shipped in lower quantities than the more powerful one.

Well all the rumours could be bullshit as far as we know. Doing a cheaper 1080p version of its 'big brother' makes way more sense to me than having a streaming box, when streaming can just be ana pp that works on any Xbox.

 

[Afro Republican]

But Lockhart can't be $250 if it will have 12 GBs of RAM, a Zen2 CPU, chopped down Navi GPU and a NVMe HDD.

It's not going to have 12 GBs of ram. It will have enough specs for good visual effects on top of the 4K stream, and the ability to play digital games in great quality from the XBox store (that's where the Zen comes in) but it's just going to be a cheap digital only device.

Of course, if there's backlash to all Digital Xbox may just abandon lockheart altogether. A bunch of the "game service" train jumpers are launching in a couple months, including Stadia, which will introduce their game lineup in june.

 

[Afro Republican]

Well all the rumours could be bullshit as far as we know. Doing a cheaper 1080p version of its 'big brother' makes way more sense to me than having a streaming box, when streaming can just be ana pp that works on any Xbox.

It only seems that way because when you hear "streaming device" you think its streaming only when it can still play games off the store offline after buying and installing, that's why the Zen and navi would be in the machine in the first place. It still has to be slightly capable to play those store games offline. Streaming will still be a big part of it, but it's not the ONLY thing it can do.

 

[DeepEnigma]

It only seems that way because when you hear "streaming device" you think its streaming only when it can still play games off the store offline after buying and installing, that's why the Zen and navi would be in the machine in the first place. It still has to be slightly capable to play those store games offline. Streaming will still be a big part of it, but it's not the ONLY thing it can do.

Sounds like you’re just describing a disc-less console, that can only play select games locally.

 

[Afro Republican]

Sounds like you’re just describing a disc-less console, that can only play select games locally.

Um, pretty much every game released is on the Xbox store, so I'm not sure what you mean by "select games"

It will be a disc-less console that will be an entry level streaming and digital device.

Or if all those companies fail in their streaming endeavors Microsoft will scrap it, and focus on one machine.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Um, pretty much every game released is on the Xbox store, so I'm not sure what you mean by "select games"

It will be a disc-less console that will be an entry level streaming and digital device.

Or if all those companies fail in their streaming endeavors Microsoft will scrap it, and focus on one machine.

How is 4TF going to play almost every game released LOCALLY? That will be made for the big brother?

Unless you’re saying the same thing that Stuart360 is saying, lol. Without a disc drive tho.

My head hurts.

 

[Afro Republican]

How is 4TF

It's not going to be 4tf. Freaking Stadia is running off a browser and is 10. If anything it will be 6-9.

It will be able to play all the games on the store the scarlet anaconda can, just not as well. For those other times, you get 4k Streaming.

If you want more power, to keep your games, and to experience more features? You buy a scarlet.

 

[SonGoku]

What if Lockart is meant to play enhanced xbone games at 1080p and stream Snek games at 4k? Effectively replacing the xboneS

It will be able to play all the games on the store the scarlet anaconda can, just not as well.

at 1080p?
wait isn't that what Stuart has been saying?

 

[somerset]

The new 'digital service' 1080P consoles are designed from the ground up to be subsidised by future software subscriptions and purchases.

They are not 'bleeding edge'- don't have the excessive cost issue of new-gen bleeding edge consoles, and don't therefore need high prices. Indeed the major build cost of the new 1080P consoles is likely to be their memory resources, RAM and SSD.

And everyone here seems to forget the impact of *competition*. Sony wants to win. MS wants to win. And with these 'low' spec machines, winning is done via cost and *not* features. So think cheap- as cheap as possible, and then some. Again they make their money downstream.

And for those that do *not* understand tech licensing, you pay for the intended *use* of the tech, not the tech itself. So AMD can accept much lower amounts per chip in these 1080P machines. The Zen2 within, for instance, is not robbing Zen2 sales elsewhere- ots not like the chip can be torn out and resold.

And AMD *does not* make the chips- MS and Sony pays TSMC to make the chips, under AMD's guidance. AMD makes a fee per chip, and gets R+D expenses back for initial chip design. Because 1080P is *unremarkable*, the going fee per chip is low.

It is a whole other story with the full-fat next-gen consoles. AMD's tech in them is wholly remarkable and bleeding edge, and its use requires a much larger fee per chip.

PS Sony and MS would also like you to buy *both* the 4K and 1080P consoles- which won't happen if the 1080P 'extra' box for the 'kiddies' or second room has anything but a modest cost.

 

[CrustyBritches]

They should use the same GPU design with CUs cut in half, that way hw optimizations will work for both consoles
How would a 2x memory gap work for mantaining parity in games designed to take advantage of PS5/SNEK memory setup? There will have to be some serious downgrades and cutbacks

I don't think we'll be able to make that call until we see the full specs. It's harder to predict system memory usage in a console compared to VRAM. X1X has 9GB total for games which probably splits 6GB VRAM and 3GB system, and that runs FM7 and FH4 just fine, but if you use 8GB system RAM on PC it will hitch and stutter terribly.

If MS does release a 4tf Lockhart, can it still outperform X due to better cpu and ram?

So X might have an extra 2tf, but Lockhart can still churn out better games?

Or would X's 2tf likely still going to be better overall?

At 1080p the Lockhart would smoke the X due to the Ryzen CPU.

 

[SonGoku]

I don't think we'll be able to make that call until we see the full specs. It's harder to predict system memory usage in a console compared to VRAM. X1X has 9GB total for games which probably splits 6GB VRAM and 3GB system, and that runs FM7 and FH4 just fine, but if you use 8GB system RAM on PC it will hitch and stutter terribly.

But we are making a console to console comparison here: snek and lockart, half the ram is too big a gap to overcome by just dropping resolution without other downgrades.
Console games are optimized to make the most out of the available resources, this applies to snek as well not just lockart.

 

[Pagusas]

I hope for a $400 mainstream console and a $600 high end console. $600 for a cutting edge machine would be a great price.

 

[CrustyBritches]

half the ram is too big a gap to overcome by just dropping resolution without other downgrades.

1. We don't know if it will be half the RAM. Original rumor had 12GB vs 16GB. The brings us back to the manufacturing cost and price points, but that's a different issue.

2. Where are you getting your numbers for "too big a gap to overcome"? You mentioned console vs console numbers?

 

[SonGoku]

1. We don't know if it will be half the RAM. Original rumor had 12GB vs 16GB. The brings us back to the manufacturing cost and price points, but that's a different issue.

2. Where are you getting your numbers for "too big a gap to overcome"? You mentioned console vs console numbers?

1. That's why i said IF
2. I though we were talking about the rumor, you even mentioned 12GB vs 24GB in your post i replied

 

[Dabaus]

It can't. It'll save $100 or so if they also decide to take out the disc drive also or if they decide to take a loss on the Lockhart.



I'd say those two skus did confuse the market. I was there at the time. The HDDless X360 was worthless and people noticed very quickly how worthless it was. The same with the PS3 Poor (20 GB version).

Sony did make a point about ps5 having a disc drive so I wonder if they’ve caught wind that MS intends not having one, at least for lockheart? What it seems to me is that Sony is baiting Microsoft into thinking they too are going big and expensive again but I think are goin to wait last minute and go with 399 again, even if there is a loss. There’s only so much you can do with Navi if you’re buying from the same manufacturer so maybe Sony feels like 13 tflops (what we’re hearing) is good enough who cares what ms is doing at the top end? If Sony has a 13 tflop ps5 against a 7-8 tflop lockheart with no disc drive and 299-399 I feel like from a hardware stand point that leaves Microsoft in a bad position. Of course software will be the end all be all in this race!

 

[CrustyBritches]

1. That's why i said IF
2. I though we were talking about the rumor, you even mentioned 12GB vs 24GB in your post i replied

We can all agree we're theorizing based on rumors. That's why I said we'll have to wait for actual numbers and implementation because it's harder to use a PC to get an idea of system memory usage compared to VRAM, when comparing to consoles.

You said we're talking console vs console so I wondered if you have the numbers for that?

Remember, too, that MS is designing their 1st-party around 2 tiers and a bunch of PC configs. It won't be like Sony 1st-party that optimizes for PS5 alone. MS will have best practices for devs that assures it works if they go this route.

P.S.- I don't want to come off like a dick, or know-it-all, ever. I see it like we're working together to solve the riddle.

 

[SonGoku]

You said we're talking console vs console so I wondered if you have the numbers for that?

Because i thought we were discussing the 12gb lockart 24gb snek rumor

Remember, too, that MS is designing their 1st-party around 2 tiers and a bunch of PC configs. It won't be like Sony 1st-party that optimizes for PS5 alone. MS will have best practices for devs that assures it works if they go this route.

3rd party will optimize for ps5/snek and downport to lockart. That's what makes the most sense for third parties.
MS can prioritize lockart with their exclusives but that will hold snek back compared to a gamed designed from the ground up to take advantage of its hw.

 

[CrustyBritches]

Because i thought we were discussing the 12gb lockart 24gb snek rumor

Ok. Let's discuss 12GB vs 24GB. You mentioned console vs console, so do you have numbers you're drawing these conclusions from?

I've done the compute/VRAM comparison for 12TF/8GB at 4K vs 4TF/4GB at 1080p, now I'm working on 16GB VRAM vs 4GB VRAM. I can't say how the RAM reserved for system memory will work because PC has much more overhead than console. Which is why I brought up FM7 and FH4 PC system memory usage compared to X1S or X1X.

3rd party will optimize for ps5/snek and downport to lockart.

So if they are optimizing for Anaconda, then it will be fine.

 

[SonGoku]

Ok. Let's discuss 12GB vs 24GB. You mentioned console vs console, so do you have numbers you're drawing these conclusions from?

I said console vs consoles because its a direct comparison with no overhead muddling the waters and what's more important devs target console hw specifically to make the most out of it vs PC which tends to use the excess vram as a cache/buffer of sorts

What im saying is this: If a game is designed from the ground up to take advantage of the full fat 24gb pool of memory present on ps5/snek with none of it going to waste then Lockart will require downgrades to run the game. See what im trying to say here? not sure if im wording things right

So if they are optimizing for Anaconda, then it will be fine.

Yeah that's why im not worried, they can take full advantage of ps5/snek and just downport (make sacrifices when needed) on lockart.

 

[CrustyBritches]

What im saying is this: If a game is designed from the ground up to take advantage of the full fat 24gb pool of memory present on ps5/snek with none of it going to waste then Lockart will require downgrades to run the game. See what im trying to say here? not sure if im wording things right

I get what you're saying, but you said it's too big of a gap to overcome. I want to know if you have numbers for that assertion. Maybe it's not? If they have 16GB, it's not a question.

Even with 24GB, if they reserve at the same ratios as Xbox One X, my guess is that it would break down like:

-Lockhart -> 12GB total = 9GB for games + 3GB OS | 9GB for games breaks down to ~4GB VRAM, ~5GB system mem...(because only 1080p)

-Anaconda -> 24GB total = 18GB for games + 6GB OS | 18GB breaks down to ~12GB VRAM, ~6GB system mem

-Anaconda-> 16GB total = 12GB for games + 4GB OS | 12GB breaks down to ~8GB VRAM, ~4GB system mem

 

[Iced Arcade]

How so? It’s not the first time a system has launched with two different sku’s. The 360 launched with the basic model (no hdd) and the premium (20gb) before getting the second wave (with fixed soldering), then the Elite model. Then the S model and then the E model when they announced the xbo. And if I recall the ps3 did more or less the same thing.

The only real way to confuse the market is by creating a new system and making it sound like a peripheral. (Looking at you, Wii U)

The 360 pro and core were the exact same system. Have a core, buy a HDD bam exactly the same as a pro. The others were just redesigns and larger storage (ps3 the same)... last gen didn't have different levels of power/performance.

Agree on the wii u note though.

 

[Silent Viper]

Today's multiplats have to run on a gpu comparable to HD7850 720p 30fps because of xbox1 and ps4. Sure you get higher rez and framerate, draw distance, shadows and some nicer effects etc, but game assets are made for lowest spec. [the amount of polygons that devs can target will be commanded by lowest spec, you'll only get better draw distance from better system]

If there's half perf gpu in one of sku's then devs will have no choice but to target weakest system. Multiplats and xbox exclusives will suffer greatly because of that.

No thats not games are made. They start with high spec PCs then go down.

Lockhart will not create problems coz it will not hold games back with weaker cpu or ram. Only thing it will do is less resolution eye candy

You will get better idea when it's info is released. My friend who is a developer told me games are made for pc then changed for different consoles

 

[Silent Viper]

Lets be fair here. PC games for at least 4-5 years have been held back due to the PS4 and Xbox One. Higher end PCs aren't getting games that they should be getting because almost nobody makes PC exclusive games anymore. Lockhart will hold back Anaconda.



Rumor is Lockhart will only have 12 GBs of RAM since it's a 1080p console, but Anaconda is supposed to be 24 or 32 GBs of RAM.

No Ram will be same. You guys purposely creating negativity towards it based on lack of knowledge

 

[Codes 208]

The 360 pro and core were the exact same system. Have a core, buy a HDD bam exactly the same as a pro. The others were just redesigns and larger storage (ps3 the same)... last gen didn't have different levels of power/performance.

Agree on the wii u note though.

The two models came out when HDD space like that was relatively new. I certainly to explain that to my parents at the time.

 

[SonGoku]

I get what you're saying, but you said it's too big of a gap to overcome. I want to know if you have numbers for that assertion. Maybe it's not? If they have 16GB, it's not a question.

Even with 24GB, if they reserve at the same ratios as Xbox One X, my guess is that it would break down like:

-Lockhart -> 12GB total = 9GB for games + 3GB OS | 9GB for games breaks down to ~4GB VRAM, ~5GB system mem...(because only 1080p)

-Anaconda -> 24GB total = 18GB for games + 6GB OS | 18GB breaks down to ~12GB VRAM, ~6GB system mem

-Anaconda-> 16GB total = 12GB for games + 4GB OS | 12GB breaks down to ~8GB VRAM, ~4GB system mem

Why snek use more memory for OS? I thought they will get 20GB for games and wouldn't less memory for system mean the same game can't run on lockart without downgrades?
Using your OS memory reserved stats It would have to look something like:
-Lockhart -> ~3GB VRAM, ~6GB system mem.
-Anaconda -> ~12GB VRAM, ~6GB system mem
Quite a big gap, if a game takes advantage of the full fat 12gb vram how would it run on lockart with 1/4 the vram without downgrades?

And to answer your question by looking at games vram usage on PC, memory consumption doesn't double (let alone 4x), but let's say it does depending of the game, it would still mean compromises depending of the game. Heck the Pro uses only 512mb more than base ps4, its not ideal i know but goes to show the gap in memory consumption isn't that big between the two resolutions.

No Ram will be same. You guys purposely creating negativity towards it based on lack of knowledge

I sincerely hope that is the case

 

[CrustyBritches]

*snip*

So you're assuming that Lockhart needs the same amount of system RAM as Anaconda? What will happen if it's short 1GB? Anything? You're assuming it will severely degrade performance, I think they'll design it in a way that doesn't impact it all. You've read my opinion on the GPU/VRAM scaling. What more can I say? We'll have to wait and see. I'm assuming it's even real, at this point.

 

[SonGoku]

So you're assuming that Lockhart needs the same amount of system RAM as Anaconda? What will happen if it's short 1GB? Anything? You're assuming it will severely degrade performance, I think they'll design it in a way that doesn't impact it all. You've read my opinion on the GPU/VRAM scaling. What more can I say? We'll have to wait and see. I'm assuming it's even real, at this point.

Resolution only affects vram am i wrong? It will need less vram by default because it runs at 1080p and no 4k textures but it should have the same amount cpu ram no. But let's say it has 1gb less system that would imply a compromise somewhere. Why would Snek be less efficient? a console vs console is an apples to apples coparison.

Im just saying double the ram gap will require downgrades

 

[CrustyBritches]

Resolution only affects vram am i wrong? It will need less vram by default because it runs at 1080p and no 4k textures but it should have the same amount cpu ram no. But let's say it has 1gb less system that would imply a compromise somewhere.

Im just saying double the ram gap will require downgrades

Yes, resolution primarily affect VRAM, except in some cases of being VRAM-bound at high resolution. I've already explained why I think that available system RAM will be similar in either a 16GB or 24GB Anaconda config compared to 12GB Lockhart config. I think we differ on how much RAM will be allocated to the OS. We'll have to wait and see if your "serious downgrades and cutbacks" and "too big a gap to overcome" comes true.

I don't expect MS to release a set of systems where the lower tier is faced with too big of a gap to overcome and serious downgrades. Most engines will probably still be built to scale even to PS4, and at worst you might see part of the NVMe used for a paging file and either way it could have negligible impact by design.

 

[SonGoku]

Yes, resolution primarily affect VRAM, except in some cases of being VRAM-bound at high resolution. I've already explained why I think that available system RAM will be similar in either a 16GB or 24GB Anaconda config compared to 12GB Lockhart config. I think we differ on how much RAM will be allocated to the OS. We'll have to wait and see if your "serious downgrades and cutbacks" and "too big a gap to overcome" comes true.

At the very least expect lots of pop in and stutters, maybe even decreased draw distance
Using your own metrics 3XVRAM gap is no small thing even worse considering it already has 1GB less system ram

The key point i would like to make here is games taking full advantage of the full fat pool of ram present on ps5/snek with none of it going to waste as simply a buffer.

I don't expect MS to release a set of systems where the lower tier is faced with too big of a gap to overcome and serious downgrades

I don't either, i think the gap will be less than half unless MS positions Lockart as a very cheap entry level console that can also dub as streaming device.

 

[llien]

Anaconda, how nuanced, chuckle.

3rd parties can develop for ps5/snek and down port to lockart assuming the ram and cpu gap is minimal.

I think backward compatibility with existing 120+ million consoles (PS4+XB) is a given, hence, at least in the first year or two, that will be the baseline configuration for the developers.

More interested in its ram and cpu config than gpu, devs can just downgrade effects to match lower sppeced gpu but cpu and memory differences will be more complex to come by.

When I think about it, lower resolution textures could get away with less RAM, so, not that big of a deal.

 

[SonGoku]

Anaconda, how nuanced, chuckle.


I think backward compatibility with existing 120+ million consoles (PS4+XB) is a given, hence, at least in the first year or two, that will be the baseline configuration for the developers.


When I think about it, lower resolution textures could get away with less RAM, so, not that big of a deal.

I agree about bc but why does bc have to influence how long crossgame lasts? Its not like they are just gonna release PS4 games that get a patched for added fidelity on PS5.
Crossplay will last at most 2 years maybe less depending of how fast new consoles adoption is. Exclusives on Sony side at least will drop PS4 support very soon. I predict the last crossgame exclusives to be tlou2 and death stranding

 

[CrustyBritches]

At the very least expect lots of pop in and stutters, maybe even decreased draw distance
Using your own metrics 3XVRAM gap is no small thing even worse considering it already has 1GB less system ram

I've mentioned circumstances where the Lockhart could be forced down a tier in visual settings, but that should be more like "mild difference" than "serious downgrade". We're looping now with the same argument that if MS is dictating best practices and making the hardware, it shouldn't be an issue. Sony's hyper-optimized 1st-party games aren't here, and MS will be bringing their titles to PC as well. They will make sure the hardware is in the right spot along with development tools. X1X showed they can hit a target and do even better than planned.

I believe that if they are shooting for a 1080p Lockhart and 4K Anaconda, they won't do it unless it's done in a way that works.

You seem to believe that they will do it and that it could be done in a way that doesn't work. Why would they bother?

I'll let you have the last word on this discussion. Thanks for your time.

 

[llien]

Crossplay will last at most 2 years maybe less depending of how fast new consoles adoption is. Exclusives on Sony side at least will drop PS4 support very soon. I predict the last crossgame exclusives to be tlou2 and death stranding

If I was into developing games business, I would definitely not have abandoned huge install base of the older gen consoles easily.
One of the reasons to do so, would be higher development costs.
But there, we are used to PC games running on computers with wildly different horsepower, all engines are scalable out of the box.

On the other hand, you need to roll out something visually compelling for game to sell, so simply developing for older gen and just "patching it up" doesn't sound like wise strategy.

 

[SonGoku]

We're looping now with the same argument that if MS is dictating best practices and making the hardware, it shouldn't be an issue.

MS can't force 3rd party devs to optimize for lockart to the detriment of ps5/snek
Devs best practice would be to treat ps5/snek as base hardware (biggest combined userbase and similar hw specs) and downport to lockart.
I agree we are going back and forth, without any info its pointless to debate over these hypothetical that maybe will never come to fruition. I guess i just wanted to express that of all rumored lockart specs, memory is the biggest weakness that would likely influence on potential downgrades.

For the record: I don't believe they will ship lockart with half the ram but we'll see... need more info.

If I was into developing games business, I would definitely not have abandoned huge install base of the older gen consoles easily.
One of the reasons to do so, would be higher development costs.
But there, we are used to PC games running on computers with wildly different horsepower, all engines are scalable out of the box.

On the other hand, you need to roll out something visually compelling for game to sell, so simply developing for older gen and just "patching it up" doesn't sound like wise strategy.

The same argument could be applied to every past gen... Its just how it works, early adopters are the hardcore who buys games
PS3 had 80 million user base when PS4 launched yet PS4 grabbed most of the active user base in the first year.

Cerny made a point to put emphasis of next gen graphics and experiences that can't be replicated on current gen machines, i think that's pretty telling of their plans. I wouldn't be surprised if guerrilla is working on a PS5 launch exclusive along with suckerpunch and maybe ready at dawn.

 

[llien]

The same argument could be applied to every past gen..

This time is very different, because hardware platform is just a faster/fatter version of the same.
Letting game run on a weaker PC is totally different from letting it run on batshitcrazy PS3 hardware, with that single Cell core + vector cores and 8 times weaker GPU..

 

[SonGoku]

This time is very different, because hardware platform is just a faster/fatter version of the same.
Letting game run on a weaker PC is totally different from letting it run on batshitcrazy PS3 hardware, with that single Cell core + vector cores and 8 times weaker GPU..

360 wasn't batshit crazy...
Jaguar is incompatible with Zen 2 in the sense that the gap is too big to overcome
GPU multiplier might not be as big as the last time but it is still a sizeable upgrade that when coupled with new arch efficiencies and features make it a completely different beast
Memory size and bandwidth is also massively bigger.

I believe Cerny that next gen will bring games and experiences unattainable before
PS5/SNEK will have their own development environment different to that of PS4/XBONE it won't be profitable to keep their dev skus around for much longer after most of the active user base switches

Why are we arguing btw? we agree 2 years of crossgen tops.

 

[93xfan]

Putting in a cheaper APU isn't going to lower the price by much in itself. Its going to be a $50 saving at best, so there'll have to be a lot of other nips and tucks in order to make it meaningfully less expensive.

Perhaps using a less expensive form of cooling could also lower the price.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

Why would the X1X cost more than Lockhart?

I believe Sony and MS will discontinue their pro\x products pretty soon after the next gen consoles are out there.

 

[Snake29]

The whole Lockhart console sounds like a joke.

 

[umutt i.]

399$ weak one
499$ big one