Project Cafe Rumor Cafe [Weinerpoop Post 7513]

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Amir0x

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ReyVGM said:
“Nintendo has decided to launch in 2012 a system to succeed Wii. We will show a playable model of the new system and announce more specifications at E3.” - Nintendo’s Charlie Scibetta, senior director of corporate communications

Asshole. Tell me more, I'm dyin' here.
just relax. It's all the same grind and then we end up having to wait an additional year before good original games start coming to the newly launched platforms anyway.

I am excited to see Nintendo's return to hardcore gaming form, but if it's killin' you and shit maybe you should take a chill pill (I recommend percocet). ;)
 
Feb 19, 2007
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Amir0x said:
It covered that, but if I had a custom firmware, Nintendo would not fix it for me. They're not supposed to anyway, and it's certainly not something I'm going to risk given the problems I've had with Wii. Wii is the only system that keeps breaking down on me this gen.
I expected as much. What I meant was that I was under the assumption that your system's warranty would have expired anyway at some point, I don't really know how long it applies. Personally seeing how I had imported my Wii from Canada I was pretty much on my own from the start when it came to that.
 

Amir0x

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Well guek you were given a chance, but we're not going to let you derail the topic with your petulant whining. If you cannot respond to the points being made without crying about strongly worded statements said with conviction that are of no personal insult to you, then you cannot respond. Sorry guek, but we're trying to have a discussion :)

You may continue the conversation with someone else as long as you stay on topic.

Holy Order Sol said:
I expected as much. What I meant was that I was under the assumption that your system's warranty would have expired anyway at some point, I don't really know how long it applies. Personally seeing how I had imported my Wii from Canada I was pretty much on my own from the start when it came to that.
Not when it is Nintendo's fault for bricking your platform. The second I told them it was their firmware update that started my system not working, they pretty much fell over themselves to fix it free of charge and make sure all my downloadable games carried over. Nintendo is good that way.

I am not sure if I am still under a traditional warranty, though, but that's not what I'm worried about. Nintendo has bricked my system twice with regular firmwares so it seems to be a trend on my system :p
 

From The Dust

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ReyVGM said:
My comment still had nothing to do with your reply :)
yea it did. you posted the quote (and at the time, I didn't see your edit) and I responded by saying it wasn't new; under the assumption that it was posted without knowledge that the said info was mentioned last month (or march, whenever the meeting took place)
 
Jun 11, 2006
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From The Dust said:
yea it did. you posted the quote (and at the time, I didn't see your edit) and I responded by saying it wasn't new; under the assumption that it was posted without knowledge that the said info was mentioned last month (or march, whenever the meeting took place)
Can you take it to PM?
 

guek

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edit: oh hell, i'll just put these questions up blankly then

-How will including HDD support but excluding it from the package compel developers to not put up DLC and indie titles when there's a direct precedent for the exact opposite?

-What hard figures do you have that support installs and large internal storage spaces being a significant feature for the majority of gamers when only 6% of current gen gamers have downloaded DLC and other software to their machines according to NPD as of September, 2010?
 

Sammy Samusu

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ReyVGM said:
I agree, you want power and bells & whistles? Then prepare to pay over 350 bucks for this new console.

I'm actually happy the price (might) be that high, because at least I know Nintendo won't come out with a 1.1 Xbox360 or something.
This is actually pretty funny, because most people asking for a high-end platform will probably bitch about how expensive it is.

If you want a new generation, be ready to pay for it.
 

From The Dust

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guek said:
edit: oh hell, i'll just put these questions up blankly then

-How will including HDD support but excluding it from the package compel developers to not put up DLC and indie titles when there's a direct precedent for the exact opposite?
with the Wii, expansion wasn't exacly like it is now where you can download and run from an SD card. the Cafe will do this from day one like the 3DS

BMF said:
Can you take it to PM?
sure sure.
 

StevieP

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Sammy Samusu said:
This is actually pretty funny, because most people asking for a high-end platform will probably bitch about how expensive it is.

If you want a new generation, be ready to pay for it.
And as long as you're selling consoles at $399 (and handhelds for $250) your platforms will be considered a "bomba" because that's way out of mainstream range. And when your platform is considered a bomba, third parties will sometimes find reasons to treat it as such.
 

From The Dust

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StevieP said:
And as long as you're selling consoles at $399 (and handhelds for $250) your platforms will be considered a "bomba" because that's way out of mainstream range. And when your platform is considered a bomba, third parties will sometimes find reasons to treat it as such.
didn't happen with the 360
 

guek

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From The Dust said:
with the Wii, expansion wasn't exacly like it is now where you can download and run from an SD card. the Cafe will do this from day one like the 3DS
I was more talking about the 360 and how it launched with multiple SKUs with one lacking a harddrive.

The wii's storage situation was indeed a clusterfuck of epic proportions. We can expect that at the very least, the cafe should have what the wii has now, like you're saying.
 

[Nintex]

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StevieP said:
And as long as you're selling consoles at $399 (and handhelds for $250) your platforms will be considered a "bomba" because that's way out of mainstream range. And when your platform is considered a bomba, third parties will sometimes find reasons to treat it as such.
Microsoft made a killing on Kinect bundles at you guessed it $399. That was the holiday season though so we'll have to see how many people are willing to wait and hold on to their cash untill April 2012 or whenever the new Nintendo systems hits.
 

Amir0x

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guek said:
edit: oh hell, i'll just put these questions up blankly then

1. How will including HDD support but excluding it from the package compel developers to not put up DLC and indie titles when there's a direct precedent for the exact opposite?

2. What hard figures do you have that support installs and large internal storage spaces being a significant feature for the majority of gamers when only 6% of current gen gamers have downloaded DLC and other software to their machines according to NPD as of September, 2010?
Thank you. I am trying to get people to understand that I am not attacking you, just your points. I have nothing against you or anyone else. If I don't respect you I would not waste time responding to you :)

1. I've never argued that it'd compel devs not to put up DLC and indie titles. The only thing I've argued directly was that it'd make them far less likely to include the OPTION - only an option, since gamers shouldn't be forced to do anything - of having install to HDD. It took years for 360 to be able to add a more general across the board feature on the direct result of not having a HDD in every system to start with. Installing to HDD does things like improve loading and reduce texture pop-in, so I and many others consider it hugely important.

If the only SKU available to developers is an 8gig flash memory Stream, it's highly unlikely they're going to bother having install to the drive as an option. One game would likely blow up the space limit, and no matter how popular SD cards get the read/write speeds are not fast enough to compare to HDD so the benefits would be pointless and in the case of SDXC it's so much more expensive for less space that it'd doesn't make sense why one would advocate it over the alternative.

2. I never said it was a significant feature for a majority of gamers. I said it is an important feature for MANY gamers - which is true. There is no poll taken that suggest the # of users that utilize install to HDD or what their use is of downloadable games. Your poll is of DLC, which has been a subject of much consternation even among hardcore gamers because of the way it allows developers to nickle and dime us. What we're discussing is purely the ability to install to HDD and the downloadable games and their important to gamers at large.

We know that there are many downloadable games that have made a lot of money, and waaaaaay back in 2007 Microsoft released statistics saying 70% of users have downloaded some content of some kind. In 2011, it's without a doubt far more prevalent then it was even then and there are even more downloadable game platforms. And we know that, for example, one of the most recent gaming phenomenons have been Angry Birds, a purely downloadable game released across a litany of platforms. Downloadable titles is here to stay and it is massively important for many consumers. Given the statistics I WOULD hazard to say "most", but that is not really relevant to the discussion considering whether it was 'many' or 'most' the critical point is that any company should design a console in a way that is the objective best and not designed for the lowest common denominator.

Similarly, as a business, it only makes sense to design a console in a way that appeals to the people who spend the most money. Those would be the vast majority of gamers who reject 8GB of flash memory with paltry SD card file shuttling because of the massive inconvenience it causes in this process. I am arguing there's no reason to go down that road when we have the best, most convenient and fastest and cheapest alternative right here ready to go. And their competitors are utilizing it too, so it makes sense to at least ensure your system is on par and not inferior.
 

From The Dust

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guek said:
I was more talking about the 360 and how it launched with multiple SKUs with one lacking a harddrive.
wasn't the one with the harddrive the best selling one out the gate anyway? also, if I remember correctly, they discontinued the no harddrive option sometime afterwars
 

StevieP

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From The Dust said:
didn't happen with the 360
I don't know about you, but I don't recall the 360 being a hot ticket item like the Wii was at its release price.

in the case of SDXC it's so much more expensive for less space
Flash memory gets cheaper with time. The $50 you'd spend on a high-capacity SDXC card next year, for instance, would probably be cheaper than some proprietary hard drive option a company would sell you for $100 or $149.
 

-Silver-

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Honestly, I don't see where Nintendo is going with this 8GB flash. If they are planning to compete on the same level as the PS4 and X3 then they must have realised by now that a lot of the games get DLC, how many can someone download before they run out of space? Yes, you can always buy yourself a SD card but they're not really that large to store a lot of content and not everyone will buy one. It'd be nice if cafe had 16GB internal, SD card slot and it's able to use USB HDDs.
 

Sammy Samusu

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StevieP said:
And as long as you're selling consoles at $399 (and handhelds for $250) your platforms will be considered a "bomba" because that's way out of mainstream range. And when your platform is considered a bomba, third parties will sometimes find reasons to treat it as such.
Boo, Nintendo 3DS needs software, its price is not the problem.
 

Amir0x

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StevieP said:
Flash memory gets cheaper with time. The $50 you'd spend on an SDXC card next year, for instance, would probably be cheaper than some proprietary hard drive option a company would sell you for $100 or $149.
Again why wait for a nebulous 'time' when you have a guaranteed now that is faster, more space and cheaper. We're waiting for what reason, exactly?

Design for what makes sense, not on some iffy future reason that might make sense when your platform is already 4 years old.
 

AceBandage

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StevieP said:
I don't know about you, but I don't recall the 360 being a hot ticket item like the Wii was at its release price.



Flash memory gets cheaper with time. The $50 you'd spend on a high-capacity SDXC card next year, for instance, would probably be cheaper than some proprietary hard drive option a company would sell you for $100 or $149.
Nothing was a hot ticket item like the Wii when it launched.
 

Woffls

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Sammy Samusu said:
This is actually pretty funny, because most people asking for a high-end platform will probably bitch about how expensive it is.

If you want a new generation, be ready to pay for it.
I can already imagine people trying to find a way of not classing Café as a next gen system to justify them not wanting to spend $400 on a console just yet. They will point at 'Samaritan' and say "This is what next gen looks like, and Café can't do that, therefore it's not next gen and I'm entitled to pay $300 for it".

It will be interesting to see how much gaming platforms are valued at in the current market. So much gaming is done on phones now, and people justify purchases in such a way that they're not even paying for gaming hardware because it does so much else.

Of course, those people are happy to expect low standards, it seems.
 
Aug 19, 2006
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From The Dust said:
wasn't the one with the harddrive the best selling one out the gate anyway? also, if I remember correctly, they discontinued the no harddrive option sometime afterwars
I've lost track of all the rebrands to be honest, but I didn't it was the case that they discontinued it. The original option was seen as a bad deal, and probably priced too close to the 20GB model.
The current cheapest option contains a 4GB chip and no hard drive, sounds pretty popular.
 

From The Dust

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StevieP said:
I don't know about you, but I don't recall the 360 being a hot ticket item like the Wii was at its release price.
sold out for a everyday for a while where I lived upon launch. (Wii was better, or worse if you was looking for one)

Graphics Horse said:
I've lost track of all the rebrands to be honest, but I didn't it was the case that they discontinued it.
The current cheapest option contains a 4GB chip and no hard drive.
I meant shortly after launch. I vaguely remember them doing so. but it was 6 years ago, so my memory is fuzzy
 

Woffls

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Door2Dawn said:
WHY ISN'T IT JUNE 7TH YET WHY

I think I might from all of this anticipation! Has any new rumors popped up lately?
Nothing :( We're still mostly talking about that Kotaku article that gave details on storage solutions! I'm going to try and find a chart that shows how much solid state storage has decreased in cost over the past few years. Hopefully that would give us an indication of what Nintendo are likely to include in the system next year.
 

[Nintex]

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Woffls said:
I can already imagine people trying to find a way of not classing Café as a next gen system to justify them not wanting to spend $400 on a console just yet. They will point at 'Samaritan' and say "This is what next gen looks like, and Café can't do that, therefore it's not next gen and I'm entitled to pay $300 for it".

It will be interesting to see how much gaming platforms are valued at in the current market. So much gaming is done on phones now, and people justify purchases in such a way that they're not even paying for gaming hardware because it does so much else.

Of course, those people are happy to expect low standards, it seems.
It just depends on what Nintendo delivers. If they put out Pilotwings Resort with upscaled assets and Pikmin 3 which obviously shows that it started development on Wii and was switched just months before release no one will give a shit. If Nintendo melts our faces with a true high speed next-generation 1080p F-Zero game and a real New. Super Mario World HD type of game they'll certainly turn some heads. All they have to do is invest some of that money they're sitting on, show the use of those controller screens(if those rumors are true) and sell a ton of these. They just can't expect to sell an half assed system for $300+ so if the system is $349/$399 as rumored it needs all the bells and whistles they can cram in and we expect from a 'real' next-gen system.
 

Amir0x

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Woffls said:
Nothing :( We're still mostly talking about that Kotaku article that gave details on storage solutions! I'm going to try and find a chart that shows how much solid state storage has decreased in cost over the past few years. Hopefully that would give us an indication of what Nintendo are likely to include in the system next year.
For the record, i think the Kotaku rumours are totally bogus. I actually don't think Nintendo is this stupid at all. Gone is the Nintendo who was stupid enough to go with cartridges in the face of CD-based platforms. This is a company that is starting to understand they need to compete ALONGSIDE doing their own thing.
 
Aug 19, 2006
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Amir0x said:
Again why wait for a nebulous 'time' when you have a guaranteed now that is faster, more space and cheaper. We're waiting for what reason, exactly?

Design for what makes sense, not on some iffy future reason that might make sense when your platform is already 4 years old.
Are you expecting any of the next gen consoles to contain a mandatory, traditional Hard disk drive? I'm not.
 

chaosblade

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Graphics Horse said:
I've lost track of all the rebrands to be honest, but I didn't it was the case that they discontinued it.
The current cheapest option contains a 4GB chip and no hard drive.
Yeah, they never dropped the Arcade model. They eventually added 256MB internal flash memory for NXE to the units, then with the slim 360 they replaced it with the 4GB model.
 
Apr 20, 2005
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Amir0x said:
For the record, i think the Kotaku rumours are totally bogus. I actually don't think Nintendo is this stupid at all. Gone is the Nintendo who was stupid enough to go with cartridges in the face of CD-based platforms. This is a company that is starting to understand they need to compete ALONGSIDE doing their own thing.
Iwata strikes me as a highly intelligent business man and seems to know his shit. Can't wait to see how wii 2 pans out. We're almost there, people!
 

Amir0x

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Graphics Horse said:
Are you expecting any of the next gen consoles to contain a mandatory, traditional Hard disk drive? I'm not.
Wait you're actually expecting PS4 and Xbox 720 to not include a HDD with every system?

Why would they automatically start their next-gen systems worse than their last gen systems? For shits and giggles?

nextgeneration said:
Iwata strikes me as a highly intelligent business man and seems to know his shit. Can't wait to see how wii 2 pans out. We're almost there, people!
It is clear he is highly intelligent, although I'm not always sure he knows his shit. Still, this seems like one of those so-obvious-they-can't-be-that-dumb things. So I tend to think Nintendo is above such mistakes in this day and age. They seem to really be paying attention.
 

StevieP

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Amir0x said:
Wait you're actually expecting PS4 and Xbox 720 to not include a HDD with every system?

Why would they automatically start their next-gen systems worse than their last gen systems? For shits and giggles?
Microsoft did. I may be wrong, but he might be saying there will be HDD expansion bays and/or proprietary drives with flash memory onboard.

sold out for a everyday for a while where I lived upon launch. (Wii was better, or worse if you was looking for one)
My point is that a high priced system will not sell that well out of the gate, unless it's a worldwide phenomenon upon release.
 

Amir0x

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StevieP said:
Microsoft did. I may be wrong, but might be saying there will be HDD expansion bays and/or proprietary drives with flash memory onboard.
Microsoft did what? Two of Microsoft's primary, far more shipped SKUs include HDDs?

They should all be removable and replaceable, of course.
 

From The Dust

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nextgeneration said:
Iwata strikes me as a highly intelligent business man and seems to know his shit. Can't wait to see how wii 2 pans out. We're almost there, people!
he needs to consolidate localization departments though
 

Amir0x

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From The Dust said:
he needs to consolidate localization departments though
he needs to be somewhat less frugal in general and expand Nintendo. They need to be able to develop more games at once in a greater diversity of genres like Sony. This way they won't be afraid to introduce new IPs instead of always relying on old ones.
 
Aug 19, 2006
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Amir0x said:
Wait you're actually expecting PS4 and Xbox 720 to not include a HDD with every system?

Why would they automatically start their next-gen systems worse than their last gen systems? For shits and giggles?
Same reason they had a mandatory HDD in each XBOX 1, and killed off the idea the next generation? Same reason the 360 still doesn't include a HDD with every system.
 

Amir0x

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Graphics Horse said:
Same reason they had a mandatory HDD in each XBOX 1, and killed off the idea the next generation? Same reason the 360 still doesn't include a HDD with every system.

Microsoft ships far more versions of 360s with HDDs then 360s without. It's not even close.

They're not going to do anything less than that; multi-SKUs with the HDD version being the dominate one by a factor of 3-to-1.
 

StevieP

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I'm not talking about the immediate launch, I'm talking about sustained sales after an initial launch period. Selling out a new console during a holiday launch should be a given.

If your console is priced high out of the gate, it won't reach as many consumers. That's an (unfortunate) fact.

Jeff Gerstmann
That's where I stopped.
 
Dec 11, 2010
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Amir0x said:
Wait you're actually expecting PS4 and Xbox 720 to not include a HDD with every system?

Why would they automatically start their next-gen systems worse than their last gen systems? For shits and giggles?
XBOX > XBOX 360

lol.
 

Amir0x

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ThoseDeafMutes said:
XBOX > XBOX 360

lol.
In that one regard, yes. But the reality is in practice Microsoft ships such a higher ratio of 360's WITH an HDD that the difference between Xbox and Xbox 360 in that regard is relatively small. It's still an issue, but it's a small one due to the way Microsoft mitigated it.
 

guek

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Amir0x said:
1. I've never argued that it'd compel devs not to put up DLC and indie titles. The only thing I've argued directly was that it'd make them far less likely to include the OPTION - only an option, since gamers shouldn't be forced to do anything - of having install to HDD. It took years for 360 to be able to add a more general across the board feature on the direct result of not having a HDD in every system to start with. Installing to HDD does things like improve loading and reduce texture pop-in, so I and many others consider it hugely important.
See, I'd disagree that it was the lack of a harddrive across all skus that prevented the 360 from gaining DLC momentum early on. The reality is that there just wasn't the required infrastructure to support the marketplace at the time. I think I recall xbox live having a really small friends list cap as well as a few other now-unheard of restrictions back when it first launched. If nintendo has a respectable marketplace up from the beginning, and that is a very big IF, there is zero reason developers wouldn't put their stuff onto it. The most self-sabotaging move nintendo could do is once more enforce file size restrictions and retain the arbitrary and disorganized submission process they presently have in place. Even microsoft had no idea what a juggernaught DLC would turn into, which is why it took so long to get the 360 marketplace to get to where it is today.

As far as installs go, there are benefits for sure but I really believe few will care, especially since we'll have optical drives far superior to the 360/PS3. Nintendo is and always have been obsessed with fast read speeds and reduced loading times. Texture pop-in and whatnot are improved by installs but that's only because it circumvents bottlenecks that may be absent in the cafe.

Amir0x said:
We know that there are many downloadable games that have made a lot of money, and waaaaaay back in 2007 Microsoft released statistics saying 70% of users have downloaded some content of some kind. In 2011, it's without a doubt far more prevalent then it was even then and there are even more downloadable game platforms. And we know that, for example, one of the most recent gaming phenomenons have been Angry Birds, a purely downloadable game released across a litany of platforms. Downloadable titles is here to stay and it is massively important for many consumers. Given the statistics I WOULD hazard to say "most", but that is not really relevant to the discussion considering whether it was 'many' or 'most' the critical point is that any company should design a console in a way that is the objective best and not designed for the lowest common denominator.

Similarly, as a business, it only makes sense to design a console in a way that appeals to the people who spend the most money. Those would be the vast majority of gamers who reject 8GB of flash memory with paltry SD card file shuttling because of the massive inconvenience it causes in this process. I am arguing there's no reason to go down that road when we have the best, most convenient and fastest and cheapest alternative right here ready to go. And their competitors are utilizing it too, so it makes sense to at least ensure your system is on par and not inferior.
Oh for sure nintendo is going to have to fully embrace digital distribution if they want to be successful next gen. I don't think anybody is arguing that. It's just that not including a HDD and pricing the cafe lower as a result is most likely in the interest of gamers at large. The story you listed is directly at odds with the NPD report, which is strange. I'm more suspicious of Microsoft's figure though since they're less impartial than NPD. In any case, including HDD support but excluding an HDD from the box feels reasonable to me because it gives consumers a choice rather than forcing them to pay for something they may not use. The logic might be that 8gb is enough for most people to have a taste of what the marketplace can offer, maybe download a handful of demos or one or two map packs and whatnot. At that point, the consumer can make the choice themselves as to whether they want to go out and buy more storage and how much.

Personally, I'd pay for a $400 Cafe that included a 500gb harddrive. I would definitely do it because that's the kind of gamer I am. But excluding a harddrive and pricing it at $350 would almost certainly appeal to a broader range of people solely because the price is lower. It's the smart thing to do because it helps their bottom line while retaining consumer choice. Yes, that eliminates the potential for installs, but I hardly feel that installs are a selling point, especially if nintendo packages in a top notch drive.

No HDD support in any way though will be a pretty awful idea. I agree that SD cards are just going to be too expensive. File sizes are getting exponentially larger to the point where flash for use for anything other than onboard caches would be unreasonable.

I'm going to go nuts though if this whole "8gb storage" is a just an error in reporting and turns out to be 8gb of blinding fast ram. That would be...sweet.
 

Woffls

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Amir0x said:
he needs to be somewhat less frugal in general and expand Nintendo. They need to be able to develop more games at once in a greater diversity of genres like Sony. This way they won't be afraid to introduce new IPs instead of always relying on old ones.
I think they're getting there, but there's nothing keeping them from expanding slowly and organically. I think it was Miyamoto who said they were looking at handing down big projects to younger teams, and that's absolutely crucial at this stage. I expect these 'young' teams have still been around 5 years or so, and that Nintendo have been leading them in the 'right' direction with regards to game design philosophy and practices.

The last thing I'd want Nintendo to do is buy up some studios to expand their reach, and just hand them a Haynes manual for making Nintendo games.

As for relying on old IP's, I have absolutely no problem with that as long as they keep reinventing the experience and making it feel fresh, which they do. It's no use having the same old formula under the guise of a new IP.

Unfortunately, a lot of people now look at Zelda, for example, and if they see a horse and a green tunic then that's rehashing old games to them. It would probably benefit Nintendo a lot if they were to make some new IP's even if it's just based on an idea they had for a Zelda game.
 

shadyspace

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Stream: 8gb onboard for patches and other essential data, everything else streamed from the cloud. SD card option for those who can't partake in glorious future.
 
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Can anyone imagine what EAD main console Zelda team could do with a huge leap beyond GameCube & Wii graphics in an HD Zelda? I mean, Twilight Princess is still a good looking game aside from the bad textures. What they could do with a console that's somewhat above Xbox 360/PS3 graphics just boggles the mind. Twilight Princess was a very well designed game even though its on the easy side. I hope they go back to that style (im not liking how Skyward Sword looks right now...too pastel). Imagine a 50 fold leap above Wii (Xbox 360 is 20x Wii). It just blows my mind guys, what Zelda on Cafe could look like.
 
Jun 11, 2006
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Graphics Horse said:
I've lost track of all the rebrands to be honest, but I didn't it was the case that they discontinued it. The original option was seen as a bad deal, and probably priced too close to the 20GB model.
The current cheapest option contains a 4GB chip and no hard drive, sounds pretty popular.
It was some time in 2007 or 2008 (slightly before NXE) that they started packing in a 256meg memory card.
 
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