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[swerve]

There can be no marriage between hardcore and casual unless both parties are catered to.

Whether that's true or not, it was undeniably Nintendo's stated goal.

The PS2 is the perfect example of a jack-of-all trades console. I hold this is the ideal that nintendo is trying to achieve.

And if that's true, then they are following on with the same Wii concept, surely?

In 2005 they didn't know how 360 or PS3 would turn out. There was no reason for them not to believe they would become the PS2 of this gen, but with an even bigger base because they knew how to get the families involved.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

This thread is really going strong, it's almost hard to keep up with the discussions.

Anyway, I think Nintendo wants both pies, the casual and hardcore, so Cafe is going to reflect that.

 

[DragonKnight]

Whether that's true or not, it was undeniably Nintendo's stated goal.



And if that's true, then they are following on with the same Wii concept, surely?

In 2005 they didn't know how 360 or PS3 would turn out. There was no reason for them not to believe they would become the PS2 of this gen, but with an even bigger base because they knew how to get the families involved.

You can't expect me to believe that nintendo thought that the hardcore would flock to a console that would not be home to a bunch of games that their favorite developers would not support.

Edit: I would go so far then to say that the Wii "concept" was a failure from the getgo if nintendo really had both audiences in mind. I mean Satoru did say that we would say "wow" when looking at the systems graphical capabilities.

 

[swerve]

1) Journalists who have been proven in the past
2) Journalists as of late have been extremely accurate. I can formulate a list if you want
3) To write off 50 million PS3 and 50 million 360 owners would be even more foolish
4) I think you are letting the Wii's success cause you to misjudge nintendo. The hardcore got them through the first 21 years, the casuals got them through the last five. Which of the two groups do you think is more fleeting or unproven?


Edit: I am only arguing against you because I hope you are dead wrong.

1 and 2) I'm not denying the accuracy of the journalist's information. I am stating that the way they have presented that info - likely sourced from French and US developers, is unlikely to be focused on the areas Nintendo will be focused. It is courting disaster to get excited based upon 2nd and 3rd hand interpretations and translations.

3) Very few games have sold as much as any of the three I listed. I expect Cafe to be able to run big 3rd party games for the next 3-4 years at least. I haven't said anything to the contrary. I've just said that the focus is not likely to be on technical superiority or belonging to the next generation.

4) I genuinely don't believe 'the casuals' got them through the last five. I believe a huge number of existing and new Nintendo Fans did. Their definition as hardcore or not is entirely subjective and pointless. All that changed in the last five years is that we got top-tier 2D platform games again alongside their best-in-class 3D platformers making Wii about as 'hardcore' as they ever got, but because the adverts didn't have nerdy kids in a big purple cube shooting Imperial Star Destroyers somehow the GameCube was more hardcore.

 

[Sianos]

You can't expect me to believe that nintendo thought that the hardcore would flock to a console that would not be home to a bunch of games that their favorite developers would not support.

They thought that weaker tech meant cheaper game development, which in turn meant more games being developed for the system.

What they didn't account for was that multiplatform games were the next big thing. Although developing for the HD Twins costs more, you have (on paper) double the people buying your game.

Nintendo isn't stupid; they made a business decision which although worked in most ways could still use some tweaking to make better. They'll take their observations from this gen, and use it to make their next console sell better.

 

[From The Dust]

You can't expect me to believe that nintendo thought that the hardcore would flock to a console that would not be home to a bunch of games that their favorite developers would not support.

Edit: I would go so far then to say that the Wii "concept" was a failure from the getgo if nintendo really had both audiences in mind. I mean Satoru did say that we would say "wow" when looking at the systems graphical capabilities.

I said wow when I saw Galaxy

 

[DragonKnight]

This thread is really going strong, it's almost hard to keep up with the discussions.

Anyway, I think Nintendo wants both pies, the casual and hardcore, so Cafe is going to reflect that.

Nintendo please model the PS2

-Power that will allow your system to remain relevant to all developers for an entire generation (this means we want RE6 not some spin-off shit)
-Software that tends to every genre and age
- Controls that developers besides the manufacturers are able to understand and innovate
-online that rivals or even takes the XBL concept further.

SUCCESS

 

[SolarPowered]

I kind of hope that the Kinect takes off as much as possible for this year. Nintendo has this stupid way of dealing with online communities that can only be corrected by following the example of someone else. If Kinect is successful software wise and the sales continue to rise it should show the big wigs at Nintendo that a comprehensive and "hardcore" friendly online service is compatible with a more casual audience(or maybe even beneficial).

They'd be better off looking at what has worked in the West on the 360 and PS3 in the hopes that they can finally hit software success(because they've surely hit some hardware milestones with the Wii and DS) using online communities. They've been way too Japan centric and it will bite them in the ass...

 

[swerve]

You can't expect me to believe that nintendo thought that the hardcore would flock to a console that would not be home to a bunch of games that their favorite developers would not support.

I believe Nintendo had faith that gamers (not 'hardcore' or whatever) would want to play good games, and that Wii still had plenty of scope for attracting good games. I believe they were proved very wrong about this not in principle but sadly for them in practise, due to the many issues with Wii often discussed on GAF.

EDIT: What NSQuote said.

I mean Satoru did say that we would say "wow" when looking at the systems graphical capabilities.

So you can believe that was what they thought!

I have to sleep now. We all basically agree! Let's excite!

They'd be better off looking at what has worked in the West on the 360 and PS3 in the hopes that they can finally hit software success

HERE'S WHERE WE EXCITE....

I feel that it will become necessary to reinforce the development resources in the foreign countries. Therefore, I hope we will be able to show you something like that at E3.

 

[DragonKnight]

1 and 2) I'm not denying the accuracy of the journalist's information. I am stating that the way they have presented that info - likely sourced from French and US developers, is unlikely to be focused on the areas Nintendo will be focused. It is courting disaster to get excited based upon 2nd and 3rd hand interpretations and translations.

3) Very few games have sold as much as any of the three I listed. I expect Cafe to be able to run big 3rd party games for the next 3-4 years at least. I haven't said anything to the contrary. I've just said that the focus is not likely to be on technical superiority or belonging to the next generation.

4) I genuinely don't believe 'the casuals' got them through the last five. I believe a huge number of existing and new Nintendo Fans did. Their definition as hardcore or not is entirely subjective and pointless. All that changed in the last five years is that we got top-tier 2D platform games again alongside their best-in-class 3D platformers making Wii about as 'hardcore' as they ever got, but because the adverts didn't have nerdy kids in a big purple cube shooting Imperial Star Destroyers somehow the GameCube was more hardcore.

I guess you have been misunderstand me. I am not saying that nintendo needs to shout power from the mountain tops either. They never have and never will. That said, the things needs to be able to remain relevant for the next five years.

And mario games always sell well. The more people that own your consoles the more games that your franchise will sell. Case in point with the Wii

There is no way that the 25 million gamecube owners can account for the majority of nintendo's success as of late. The new owners were your mom, dad, sister, etc--people who were intrigued by waggle and not by games.

 

[kinggroin]

the problem Nintendo failed to grabe the hardcore is because it couldn't run the games the hardcore cared about. in other words, make a console that can run all third party games, instant hardcore machine. even if they didn't buy it, as long as the games are avalible. that's what matters.

at least that's what it seems like to me

That makes absolutely no sense.


Really, its very simple. If Nintendo cant give current 360/PS3 owners a reason to migrate to the cafe (it would have to be related to online play and a killer app to take advantage) then expect hardware performance between the GC and the Wii.

 

[DragonKnight]

I believe Nintendo had faith that gamers (not 'hardcore' or whatever) would want to play good games, and that Wii still had plenty of scope for attracting good games. I believe they were proved very wrong about this not in principle but sadly for them in practise, due to the many issues with Wii often discussed on GAF.

EDIT: What NSQuote said.



So you can believe that was what they thought!

I have to sleep now. We all basically agree! Let's excite!



HERE'S WHERE WE EXCITE....

Only nintendo would be jaded enough to believe that Red Steel would be visually impressive in 2005. And you can't tell me that nintendo did not hear rumblings of at least where Sony was trying to ballpark the PS3

 

[swerve]

I guess you have been misunderstand me. I am not saying that nintendo needs to shout power from the mountain tops either. They never have and never will. That said, the things needs to be able to remain relevant for the next five years.

I was responding to one of your quotes, for sure, but in general I was just trying to move towards discussion of what Nintendo might do outside of tech specs to stay competitive. Because I don't believe they will stay competitive for many years on tech specs, and I want to stop the hype train from derailing.

 

[swerve]

Only nintendo would be jaded enough to believe that Red Steel would be visually impressive in 2005. And you can't tell me that nintendo did not hear rumblings of at least where Sony was trying to ballpark the PS3

Nintendo had seen Mario Galaxy at that point. That would have given me confidence in my system, and rightly so. The fact that nobody else bothered, and moved elsewhere, was not a simple fact nor was it an obvious outcome - in fact for the first 18 months of Wii's life there was still a great deal of expectation on GAF that the 3rd parties were all about to fall in line on Wii.

 

[DragonKnight]

I was responding to one of your quotes, for sure, but in general I was just trying to move towards discussion of what Nintendo might do outside of tech specs to stay competitive. Because I don't believe they will stay competitive for many years on tech specs, and I want to stop the hype train from derailing.

Beyond their tech specs (which they won't reveal) I believe that this console's true worth will be in this new social/online functionality. Hopefully it will be something that we didn't know we needed and not something that nobody wants

 

[DragonKnight]

Nintendo had seen Mario Galaxy at that point. That would have given me confidence in my system, and rightly so. The fact that nobody else bothered, and moved elsewhere, was not a simple fact nor was it an obvious outcome - in fact for the first 18 months of Wii's life there was still a great deal of expectation on GAF that the 3rd parties were all about to fall in line on Wii.

Are we talking about main games or spinoffs?

 

[AceBandage]

Beyond their tech specs (which they won't reveal) I believe that this console's true worth will be in this new social/online functionality. Hopefully it will be something that we didn't know we needed and not something that nobody wants

Drop in/Drop out for all multiplayer games, including retro games, would be pretty awesome.

 

[Sianos]

The console's worth will be determined by its games.

The quality and quantity of said games is what online, stronger tech, and new gimmicks are trying to improve.

 

[GDGF]

Is it possible for Nintendo to give the system some kind of "*tunneling" ability so that any game could be online multiplayer as long as it has at least a two player mode?


(*similar to how people used to force online in Halo 1 pre LIVE, but via dedicated hardware)

 

[JohnTinker]

I think the ability to spectate like in StarCraft 2 would be nice

 

[ShockingAlberto]

You know what I'd like?

For Iwata to make good on the feature he bragged about for the Wii at E3 2005 and have a console sleep mode.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

Getting a big piece of that hardcore market isn't gonna be easy for one simple reason: As wrong as this is, Nintendo's perception among the majority of that crowd is that it's for kids. Frat guys aren't gonna jump ship from the 360 & PS3 to a new Nintendo console. Not sure why this is being ignored. The Wii is way too fresh in their minds. Just not gonna happen, imo.

I think the ability to spectate like in StarCraft 2 would be nice

That would be awesome, or like in OnLive.

 

[AceBandage]

You know what I'd like?

For Iwata to make good on the feature he bragged about for the Wii at E3 2005 and have a console sleep mode.

Kind of like 3DS's always on mode?
It's possible, if you can run some features through the controller without having the system at full power.

Getting a big of that hardcore market isn't gonna be easy for one simple reason: As wrong as this is, Nintendo's perception among the majority of that crowd is that it's for kids Frat guys aren't gonna jump ship from the 360 & PS3 to a new Nintendo console. Not sure why this is being ignored. The Wii is way too fresh in their minds. Just not gonna happen, imo.


That would be awesome, or like in OnLive.

In a sense, yes. However, it's not to hard to turn people. A steady stream of games that "frat guys" like would make them take notice pretty quick.

 

[Sianos]

I think the ability to spectate like in StarCraft 2 would be nice

Yeah, being able to spectate tournament level matches would be pretty cool.

Wasn't there a spectator mode for Brawl?

 

[DragonKnight]

Getting a big piece of that hardcore market isn't gonna be easy for one simple reason: As wrong as this is, Nintendo's perception among the majority of that crowd is that it's for kids. Frat guys aren't gonna jump ship from the 360 & PS3 to a new Nintendo console. Not sure why this is being ignored. The Wii is way too fresh in their minds. Just not gonna happen, imo.


That would be awesome, or like in OnLive.

I agree that it's going to be an uphill battle but if you told me that in 2005 a console will be released that got my grandma gaming I would have called that an uphill battle as well.

 

[AceBandage]

Yeah, being able to spectate tournament level matches would be pretty cool.

Wasn't there a spectator mode for Brawl?

It was just a recording, though. Not actually live gameplay.

 

[Sianos]

It was just a recording, though. Not actually live gameplay.

At least they had the right idea.

Maybe we'll see a true spectator mode for Cafe?

 

[DragonKnight]

I third the Spectator mode. I'd even say spectate during single player. "You're going the wrong way dipshit!"

 

[AceBandage]

At least they had the right idea.

Maybe we'll see a true spectator mode for Cafe?

It's certainly possible. The Cafe will be much better suited for it than the Wii was.

I third the Spectator mode. I'd even say spectate during single player. "You're going the wrong way dipshit!"

Oh geeze. A GAFers watching GAFers thread. "Anyone playing Mario Cafe? I want to watch!"

...

"HOLY SHIT! YOU DIED ON THE FIRST GOOMBA! YOU NOOB!"

 

[Anth0ny]

There can be no marriage between hardcore and casual unless both parties are catered to. If hardcore is left and casual is right, then I think most people can agree that nintendo leaned a tad too far right with the wii.

When Wii was released, they went right, where no one had gone before, and hit the jackpot. Now, the right also consists of Kinect, Move and to an extent, iOS games. Nintendo can't possibly go with the same "far right" strategy this gen and expect the same results.

If they don't have the definitive version of games like COD, Fifa, Madden, 2K and all those other insane, year round sellers... not good.

 

[Sianos]

It's certainly possible. The Cafe will be much better suited for it than the Wii was.




Oh geeze. A GAFers watching GAFers thread. "Anyone playing Mario Cafe? I want to watch!"

...

"HOLY SHIT! YOU DIED ON THE FIRST GOOMBA! YOU NOOB!"

Sort like livestreaming, except without the PC and bad camcorder?

 

[DragonKnight]

It's certainly possible. The Cafe will be much better suited for it than the Wii was.




Oh geeze. A GAFers watching GAFers thread. "Anyone playing Mario Cafe? I want to watch!"

...

"HOLY SHIT! YOU DIED ON THE FIRST GOOMBA! YOU NOOB!"

YES!!! Even if they can't hear you, I'd still seriously get enjoyment watching other people successes and failures. That would be amazing to pregame to on the weekends when I get back to college lol.

 

[AceBandage]

Sort like livestreaming, except without the PC and bad camcorder?

Basically.

YES!!! Even if they can't hear you, I'd still seriously get enjoyment watching other people successes and failures. That would be amazing to pregame to on the weekends when I get back to college lol.

It actually would be a great marking tool, though. You actually get to see the fun your friends are having and that makes you go out and buy it. If Nintendo does do something like this, it's really nothing short of genius.

 

[DragonKnight]

Sort like livestreaming, except without the PC and bad camcorder?

Yep, lol.

 

[Sianos]

When Wii was released, they went right, where no one had gone before, and hit the jackpot. Now, the right also consists of Kinect, Move and to an extent, iOS games. Nintendo can't possibly go with the same "far right" strategy this gen and expect the same results.

If they don't have the definitive version of games like COD, Fifa, Madden, 2K and all those other insane, year round sellers... not good.

They don't need the very best version, just a very good multiplatform port.

And no "Wii-Style" spinoff games in the place of the regular multiplatform game (which shouldn't be a problem if Cafe is reasonably powerful)

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Kind of like 3DS's always on mode?
It's possible, if you can run some features through the controller without having the system at full power.

No, I mean, like the PSP Go's impermanent save states

You can always stop whenever, wherever

He made a big deal about this at E3 2005 and not having the time to always get to save point, even during story scenes. Then the actual feature disappeared from the Wii.

 

[DragonKnight]

They don't need the very best version, just a very good multiplatform port.

And no "Wii-Style" spinoff games in the place of the regular multiplatform game (which shouldn't be a problem if Cafe is reasonably powerful)

ala ps2

 

[Sianos]

No, I mean, like the PSP Go's impermanent save states

You can always stop whenever, wherever

He made a big deal about this at E3 2005 and not having the time to always get to save point, even during story scenes. Then the actual feature disappeared from the Wii.

Sort of like how you could just close the DS/3DS and it would suspend the game?

This would be a really nice idea, and something I could see them doing that.

 

[radioheadrule83]

No, I mean, like the PSP Go's impermanent save states

You can always stop whenever, wherever

He made a big deal about this at E3 2005 and not having the time to always get to save point, even during story scenes. Then the actual feature disappeared from the Wii.

If the OS is similar to 3DS, this could come back for Cafe. They appear to have designed the 3DS to be capable of suspending apps / games (pressing home loads full menu, can multitask with Notes / Friends / Notifications / Browser etc) and sleeping is the same as on DS, except things like Streetpass continue to work -- it wouldn't be too difficult I'm sure to apply the same principles to the home console.

 

[Sianos]

ala ps2

Pretty much, just with more first party Nintendo goodness. <3

 

[swerve]

spectator mode makes good sense with the controller screen too. Wife watching American Idol? At least you can watch your friend playing the new Rogue Squadron on your controller screen to see if it's any good.

I love the idea of the controller screen being always on/active even when the system is in standby. SO much you can dip in and out of.

Total BS on the 'retro-fitted jump into AI characters online in your friend's game' though. I know he states 'maybe not Cafe but definitely their future plans' but even so, the amount of work involved in just VC versions was already considerable. Replacing scripted behaviour with real time input is not just difficult, it is fantasy with no obvious financial boost.

 

[Fourth Storm]

Getting a big piece of that hardcore market isn't gonna be easy for one simple reason: As wrong as this is, Nintendo's perception among the majority of that crowd is that it's for kids. Frat guys aren't gonna jump ship from the 360 & PS3 to a new Nintendo console. Not sure why this is being ignored. The Wii is way too fresh in their minds. Just not gonna happen, imo.

I don't think the majority of the market are the braindead fanboys we imagine. As this generation proved with the relative lack of PS3 marketshare compared to PS2, many gamers are not very loyal to any particular brand.

It's not like Microsoft was a particularly "cool" company before the original Xbox, but the particular product they released offered a unique experience and, more importantly, a killer app in Halo.

In the end, it's all up to Nintendo to create an appealing product, gather 3rd party support, and launch an effective marketing campaign, but if they manage to do this, there is no reason that their past products will prevent their expansion into the hardcore market in due time.

 

[Anth0ny]

They don't need the very best version, just a very good multiplatform port.

It would have to be a PS2 version to Sony and Microsoft's Gamecube and Xbox versions. Anything weaker than that would be noticeable, and the sales would show.

 

[Sianos]

It would have to be a PS2 version to Sony and Microsoft's Gamecube and Xbox versions. Anything weaker than that would be noticeable, and the sales would show.

That's exactly what I mean.

Besides, it won't be a huge difference graphically between the three. 1080p HD vs. slightly better 1080p HD isn't too big of a gap, in my opinion.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

I don't know what's what, I'll admit.
But you think Sony and Microsoft are gonna splurge shit tonnes of money next gen on mega powerful hardware, when they can go the Wii route and go a little improved on last gen, and make money from the start? Investors will have seen the GC -> Wii and want the same kinda thing
I think Kinect has shown Microsoft, you don't need power so much as you do a gimmick.
Kinect 2.0 on XBox next and a little more power to get full 1080p and blu-ray playback, and they are set.
As for Sony. I couldn't say. They may commit suicide but Sony aren't exactly flush these days.
there's completely no benefit to Microsoft or Sony for going ballistic.

Sony and MS are not going to be releasing some huge graphics beasts again next gen for a couple of reasons. They (specially Sony) can not afford it. Plus with 2012/2013 launches, they tech is not going to be there for them in an affordable TDP to see the same gap as between the Wii and PS360. The power gap is going to be a lot closer next generation.

 

[AceBandage]

Marketing Marketing Marketing.
That's what they need.
TV ads, word of mouth, billboards.
They just need to get what they want to the people.

 

[BY2K]

Marketing Marketing Marketing.
That's what they need.
TV ads, word of mouth, billboards.
They just need to get what they want to the people.

Worked a lot with the Wii.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Sort like livestreaming, except without the PC and bad camcorder?

I'd striim-monster that shit all day.

 

[AceBandage]

Worked a lot with the Wii.

Word of Mouth was the Wii's biggest seller. People would say "Did you hear about this new system?! You can play it by just moving your hands!"
They need something similar for the Cafe. "Did you hear about that new system?! You can jump into any game with someone and play with them at any time!"

It'll be interesting to see.

I'd striim-monster that shit all day.

Once NMH3 comes out, I'd have it on a constant loop and make parties for people to watch me kick ass. I will spread the good news of No More Heroes to all of GAF and the internet!

 

[Fourth Storm]

Worked a lot with the Wii.

Is this supposed to be sarcasm? Cuz Wii's marketing campaign (Wii would like to play) was ridiculously successful at capturing its target audience.