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[DiscoJer]

Laughing Jackal's minis are approaching (or probably approached already) 1m copies worldwide though:



So I think they have like 5-7 titles that were downloaded that are over 100k?

Well, yeah, people will download stuff if they are free. And considering they have 10 minis, that's an average of 100k, with them being free.

This isn't exactly scientific, but look at the numbers of ratings games have.

Age of Zombies has nearly 5000 ratings (which is the most for a Mini). LF's earliest game, Cubixx, has 200 ratings, and their most popular, OMG-Z has 650.

Granted, not everyone who buys a game rates it, not even close, but it can give vague indications on how they did relative to each other.

 

[Ken]

That's too bad and quite sad.

 

[Takao]

So what did exclusivity gave him? As others have mentioned there was no PR or marketing. Seems like Sony didn't give him any money. So what exactly did he gain?

Ease of not having to code for multiple hardware? I don't know, these guys really seem to have failed on the marketing portion of this game's development. A shame too since the videos they did make are quite nice.

 

[ASFM]

Game was terrible.

 

[Corto]

Can't comment on the game quality or if it deserves better sales in the first place, but Sony PSN release schedule is absolutely incomprehensible.

 

[Canis lupus]

The new Store should have a special section for indie games and expand the tabs from 3 to 6, the "Whats new" and other sections are just filled with 3rd party blockbusters and Sony's own games. These smaller games are easily overlooked because of it.

 

[schick85]

I'd buy this game right now in a heartbeat just to help out the dev, but it just doesn't look fun. I'm sorry.

 

[Withnail]

No, you shouldn't. No possible exclusivity sales will off-set initial loss of opportunity by selling on more than one service. Exclusivity deals for indies are modern form of slavery, you do not sign them if you can help it.

So what did exclusivity gave him? As others have mentioned there was no PR or marketing. Seems like Sony didn't give him any money. So what exactly did he gain?

I think the 'exclusivity' is just because he didn't have the manpower to develop multiple versions simultaneously. It's self published and I assume he still owns the IP so there's nothing preventing him releasing it on other platforms.

 

[michaelius]

I find it hard to spend 10-15 euros for those small games when for 15-20 i get a year old full retail titles which then can be resold to recoup 80-90% of initial cost.

 

[Squire]

So self publishing, with no PR or marketing, regardless of the platform doesn't work out? Who knew?

Yeah, this isn't shocking. When the record is Journey at 300k sold, PSN exclusitivity can easily be a death sentence.

 

[Takao]

The new Store should have a special section for indie games and expand the tabs from 3 to 6, the "Whats new" and other sections are just filled with 3rd party blockbusters and Sony's own games. These smaller games are easily overlooked because of it.

I'd say arbitrarily separating them from the rest of the store in a subsection is a bad idea.

Can't comment on the game quality or if it deserves better sales in the first place, but Sony PSN release schedule is absolutely incomprehensible.

It's funny because in the thread where Kassatsu was calling out how these games were being sent to die the overwhelming majority of posters criticized him for having that opinion.

 

[Hanmik]

Don´t know if thas has been posted yet..

http://www.differentcloth.com/my-personal-derrick-debts-run-to-40000-oops/

this is the developers blog about his personal Debt..

some background: Different Tuna is a venture that consists of myself & Ron, specifically founded to make Derrick but one which is set to power over the awesomeness horizon in the future too. we were aided and abetted by contractors Tuna, ten24 & Pitstop along the way but we are a 2 man team. Ron makes everything look sexy, i do the rest. Ron has been beyond great, he’s a genuinely amazing & talented guy & worked for many many months for free.

so long story short: turns out making a console game is a bit tricky, especially one made out of paper, and 11 months was wildly optimistic. in the end it took 24, but we only had sponsorship for 11. Channel 4 and Screen Yorkshire have been insanely supportive throughout the entire development of Derrick, but nevertheless after 11 months I needed to find income to support myself until the game was done. i certainly wasn’t about to give up, nor was i prepared to take a break and come back to the project a few months later. no sir, Derrick was going to get done & i would beg, steal and borrow the money to do so. Which is exactly what i did, apart from the stealing bit. Here’s how:

that was enough to finish it all up! since completing the game I have been on a promo tip as all my twitter followers will doubtless know (sorry everyone!) & doing some freelancing with the lovely folks at Preloaded too, which has helped out a bit.

due to sponsor requirements, revenue shares between those involved, platform costs and so on for each copy of Derrick sold i personally receive just under £1. it’s entirely possible, or indeed by the looks of things at the moment 100% probable, that sales will never amount to enough to pay back even a quarter of my personal debts.

but here’s the thing: i don’t care. i love Derrick. i’m deliriously happy that Ron & i managed to finish the game and make it so beautiful and fun too. i would do it again tomorrow.

just don’t tell my family i said that.

 

[Dog Problems]

I had no idea the developer also made lilt line. I really want to check this out now, more than before.

 

[Tokubetsu]

Hate reading this stuff. Whether the game was good or not, it sucks seeing a guy just screw himself like this into debt. I totally understand getting thist stuff out especially if it was your dream etc. but man, there has to be a better way.

 

[Joni]

When the record is Journey at 300k sold, PSN exclusitivity can easily be a death sentence.

Link?

 

[Slavik81]

Hate reading this stuff. Whether the game was good or not, it sucks seeing a guy just screw himself like this into debt. I totally understand getting thist stuff out especially if it was your dream etc. but man, there has to be a better way.

He has the equivalent of about 60k USD worth of debt assuming he earns nothing from the game. But the fact that he finished a product and released it on a curated service is a huge mark in his favour. Assuming he works ok with others, I don't think he'd have too much trouble finding a job and paying that debt down in a few years. Hell, he has a masters degree. Education and a history in industry? The world's at his fingertips, debt or not.

EDIT: That is, if he wanted to go that route. If he wants to stick with his venture, who knows?

 

[Corto]

It's funny because in the thread where Kassatsu was calling out how these games were being sent to die the overwhelming majority of posters criticized him for having that opinion.

It's a bit counterintuitive to a common gamer to wish for less releases. But that's not what Kassatsu was asking for in that thread in the first place. Our money and attention is limited. If the store has scheduled weekly updates there's an expectation from the customer to have interesting content releasing every week, if not, the customer loses interest and stops visiting the store altogether. Spreading the releases will keep the user visiting the store just to keep up with the content. It's not rocket science and I'm sure people that make these decisions at Sony know this, but there must be something in the decision process that doesn't let them achieve this. Whatever that is, Sony should quickly fix it.

 

[amardilo]

I remember this from the GB QL. Too bad it didn't really drive any sales.

I had never heard of the game until I saw the Quick Look and it looked really different and something I might be interested in.

I was hoping would come out on Steam or XBLA so I could get a copy but it seems like it maybe a PSN exclusive.

He has the equivalent of about 60k USD worth of debt assuming he earns nothing from the game. But the fact that he finished a product and released it on a curated service is a huge mark in his favour. Assuming he works ok with others, I don't think he'd have too much trouble finding a job and paying that debt down in a few years.

EDIT: That is, if he wanted to go that route. If he wants to stick with his venture, who knows?

Hope this is the start for them and they can build from this game to make more profitable games over time.

 

[BomberMouse]

That's too bad. But the only part that it's Sony or PSN fault is giving him a bad release window.

- He should've asked for something in exchange for exclusivity
- Seek funds elsewhere, use some savings if nothing else. There's even a kickstarter for a PSN game now
- He should've researched the market he was aiming
- Should've not bet he was going to break even in a 65k investment on a game called Derrick the deathfin on a DD only title of a console who is currently going away. Too much competition in that space to go all in for 65k in DEBT

I feel sorry for the guy, but he did looked for it. HTF he goes 65k in debt betting in such a bland product, it's irresponsible. He should've quitted it when he was 20k in debt.

Will buy in the future if the price is right just to support a developer, but I'd rather just donate through paypal. I've 0 interest in the game.

 

[Zen]

This. The only thing I saw about this game was a single topic here on GAF.

But hey, there is still an easy way to solve this. Go really aggressive on the pricing. It helped sell stuff like Amy.

That's true, and this game had vitally no budget, but the relative cost to him is enormous so it actually did. If he was going very aggressive on pricing he'd need to see a lot f copies to recoup the 60-70k. I really feel sorry for him. It must be devastating to see your project fail, especially when he presumably has a real passion for the brand and platform that he chose to release it on.

I think I'll buy it, all that work to seeing your dreams crushed, he probably doesn't deserve that.

 

[davepoobond]

i think the lesson here is dont go into debt to make your game/movie/whatever, always get someone else to foot the bill

as a self-publishing developer he should have created it for multiple platforms on the outset. or he should have struck some sort of deal with Sony. I'm sure they could have spared 10 thousand dollars to help the guy out and keep the game exclusive, especially if they were going to use it in PS+.

should have done some sort of PR before and after. This article will probably net him a few sales, though (pun intended)

 

[Haunted]

due to sponsor requirements, revenue shares between those involved, platform costs and so on for each copy of Derrick sold i personally receive just under £1

wow

 

[BomberMouse]

i think the lesson here is dont go into debt to make your game/movie/whatever, always get someone else to foot the bill

as a self-publishing developer he should have created it for multiple platforms on the outset. or he should have struck some sort of deal with Sony. I'm sure they could have spared 10 thousand dollars to help the guy out and keep the game exclusive, especially if they were going to use it in PS+.

should have done some sort of PR before and after. This article will probably net him a few sales, though (pun intended)

In this age of kickstarter, there's almost no excuse to take the risk and go into debt if you are an indie.

What's the point of sales though, he receives under 1 pound per sale, that bullshit. If you feel bad for the guy, should donate directly to him.

 

[Twinduct]

Feel bad for him, although I imagine there is equal amount of fault on both parties. One shouldn't have shoved it in with a random drop and the other should have build up more hype. The reviews seems semi harsh (considering the modern day standard).

 

[Pranay]

Yeah, this isn't shocking. When the record is Journey at 300k sold, PSN exclusitivity can easily be a death sentence.

lol what ?

 

[jim-jam bongs]

consoles are killing gaming.

 

[Pranay]

Anyways i feel really sorry him none the less, will buy the game

consoles are killing gaming.

Was wondering why you dont show up these days with your anti console posts

Well, yeah, people will download stuff if they are free. And considering they have 10 minis, that's an average of 100k, with them being free.

This isn't exactly scientific, but look at the numbers of ratings games have.

Age of Zombies has nearly 5000 ratings (which is the most for a Mini). LF's earliest game, Cubixx, has 200 ratings, and their most popular, OMG-Z has 650.

Granted, not everyone who buys a game rates it, not even close, but it can give vague indications on how they did relative to each other.

The games were free once for a week or so , they dont genreally be always free

Those are mini games hidden in the depths of the store.

They earned enough revenue from that they created more and more games

 

[ezekielpacman]

I saw it quite prominently when it was released. They even had custom avatars. Then I watched the trailer and was put off by the game.

 

[pa22word]

, pardon the pun but it was fed to the sharks.

Jesus. Reading through that thread made my head hurt. Are people really so dense they don't understand situations just like this occur when too many products release simultaneously, thus hurting them all?

 

[NemesisPrime]

You shouldn't release your indie game as a PSN or WiiWare exclusive if you want to make money at this point.

QFT.

Steam/iOS/XBLA

 

[Joni]

QFT.

Steam/iOS/XBLA

Sure worked out good for all those flopped Steam/iOS/XBLA games. How much did Joe Danger 2 sell again? The problem with Derrick wasn't PSN.

 

[Torraz]

I find it hard to spend 10-15 euros for those small games when for 15-20 i get a year old full retail titles which then can be resold to recoup 80-90% of initial cost.

Honestly, I have to agree with this. That's why I mostly buy indie/small games during 75% (or more) off during steam sales, with the exception of particularly interesting games like Tokyo Jungle etc.

 

[Pranay]

kassatsu was asking on twitter whether Sony needs to start a indie humble bundle. I guess it will be really helpful for game like these along with other mini games and small psn games which dont get such spot light

Honestly, I have to agree with this. That's why I mostly buy indie/small games during 75% (or more) off during steam sales, with the exception of particularly interesting games like Tokyo Jungle etc.

Well this game it was 7$ i think lol

 

[Takao]

Derrick would've sold less on iOS than PSN. The game sold poorly in a week where there was less than 10 new games competing for money on PSN. Comparatively, on iOS the game would be facing thousands of new releases, and as I've said earlier these guys didn't do the best of job in getting people to know the game exists with tools provided by Sony like the PlayStation Blog. Imagine the game on a platform where the holder is completely off hands.

 

[Rootbeer]

The developer will learn from his mistakes and move on, but it's still saddening to hear. To think that this game was someone's dream, their heart and soul was poured into it. and to sell so few copies and still be tens of thousands in debt. Not very reaffirming.

Pay attention to the indie games that succeed and notice what they are doing right. I would never, ever release exclusively on PSN or WiiWare or even eShop. You have to go where the money is and the players dumping money into those services aren't likely to give indie games the same chance that other platforms are. PC... Mac... ios... android... this is where you need to focus your attention, at least until you get established.

I wonder how Retro City Rampage pulled off such a massive multi-platform release? If only all developers could accomplish that.

 

[Torraz]

kassatsu was asking on twitter whether Sony needs to start a indie humble bundle. I guess it will be really helpful for game like these along with other mini games and small psn games which dont get such spot light





Well this game it was 7$ i think lol

Oh, yeah, in addition I did not even know the game existed before today, so I guess that a lack of marketing was also a significant factor.

 

[Noshino]

QFT.

Steam/iOS/XBLA

You might want to look that up, as far as I remember the numbers for iOS and XBLA aren't as pretty as most make them out to be. (don't know much about Steam, nor does it interest me)

Check this for iOS

http://www.streamingcolour.com/blog/2011/09/28/results-ios-game-revenue-survey/
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/173068/congratulations_your_first_indie_.php

 

[Takao]

I wonder how Retro City Rampage pulled off such a massive multi-platform release? If only all developers could accomplish that.

Years of development. Brian got fed up with Microsoft though and didn't do the completely multi-platform launch he wanted.

 

[Joni]

You have to go where the money is and the players dumping money into those services aren't likely to give indie games the same chance that other platforms are. PC... Mac... ios... android... this is where you need to focus your attention, at least until you get established.

I really need to start developping iOS games, it is apparantly a gold mine where games can't fail.

 

[Twinduct]

Years of development. Brian got fed up with Microsoft though and didn't do the completely multi-platform launch he wanted.

Not to mention it's not on the EU psn yet.

 

[Krilekk]

If the actual gameplay would look and feel like the stunning intro it would've been a success. I guess those $60.000 went into the production of the intro cause the game itself just feels mediocre at best.

 

[Pie and Beans]

There are literally too many games being made these days. It is impossible to find time to play even a fraction of them. Do devs have no control over release dates? Would have been a good summer game, has very summery themes, should have aimed to get her done for then.

Also this thread is the first I'd heard of it actually being out. Whoops?

 

[Pranay]

There are literally too many games being made these days. It is impossible to find time to play even a fraction of them. Do devs have no control over release dates? Would have been a good summer game, has very summery themes, should have aimed to get her done for then.

Also this thread is the first I'd heard of it actually being out. Whoops?

We were discussing about it here http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=494374

Too many games released on a week

 

[Kafel]

Years of development. Brian got fed up with Microsoft though and didn't do the completely multi-platform launch he wanted.

And by Sony Europe.

 

[Pie and Beans]

We were discussing about it here http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=494374

Too many games released on a week

I dont even think its so much a case of sometimes the number of games, but how much exposure they could be getting in the audiences eyes. Here on NeoGAF we dont bat an eye at reading 10 videogame articles or blogs a day back to back to stay in the know, but the average consumer is just gonna fire up their PS3 clueless, and whatever the PSN Stores got on the first page is going to win out.

Platform holders should really consider what they can add to their set-top boxes entirely controlled by them next go around thats going to facilitate more consumers being more informed and making more purchases. Personally I'd achieve this in a three step plan:

- Make trials mandatory for PSN games. You get that shit on someone's hard-drive and easy Full Game unlock, and you've done as much of the job as you can. But how do people know the trials out...

-> Produce a weekly show about what the fuck is on PSN that week, which requires tighter scheduling and games being locked in (welcome to professionalism and deadlines rather than seat of your pants scribbled homework) but the benefit would be huge. Kassatsu's weekly threads are like the only way to know whats out and where most of the time, take that concept and make it even more interactive. When a clip comes up of a game on the screen, flash a "HIT CIRCLE OR WHATEVER THE FUCK TO DOWNLOAD TRIAL NOW", bam, added to queue and could even be ready to play by the time yer done with the ep. But how do people know about the show and force/tempt them to commit time to watch....

--> You dedicate an entire button on the PS3 to it. Like not even kidding. You call the show 'The Playstation Triangle' or something, and thats the function of the triangle button on the XMB. It brings up this fucking weekly show. I cant even remember what the old stupid had to buy and subscribe show was on PS3, it was tangental at best and not in peoples faces. You eat the costs, it makes your platform a walking talking advertisement for games releases, publishers and devs quite like that A LOT, consumers buy more, baddabing baddaboom.

I often intend to write all this sorta shit up into project proposal documents and send them off to whoever, but I know how slow these dinosaur corporations move, how arrogant they are "no, we're doing fine, 12 games up at a time with no videos or accessable previews from the console is FINE' and I just can never be arsed. Also why do anything like that if youre not getting paid. SO HERES THIS ONE FOR FUCKING FREE.

 

[kassatsu]

kassatsu was right

Release all the games at once!

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Was wondering why you dont show up these days with your anti console posts

sorry. I'll pick up my game once reality stops endorsing my point of view.

 

[mclem]

I'm sure there were some indie games on WiiWare released a couple years ago that also did well.

I assume Fluidity/Hydroventure did reasonably given that there's a sequel on the cards, and Shin'en seem happy enough.

 

[famousmortimer]

I remember like 3 years back someone writing an editorial on gamasutra (I think??) about how releasing a XBLA/PSN/indie-wherever game during the fall/early winter was suicide and if i'm remembering correctly he had charts and shit showing digital sales plummeting during that time period. It makes sense, gamers only have so much money and that's when there are too many retail releases to worry about... let alone digital shit that you know you can skip for now and get on sale in 4 months.


That said I bought it. Game is decent. Doesn't seem like it really strikes the right chords to be a big (indie) hit or anything but at the same time he clearly has talent and I hate to see him end up in so much debt from it.

 

[test_account]

Pity to hear that. I bought it. I like the artstyle and the gameplay is fun as well, in my opinion.