Support NeoGAF

[Joni]

That's sad. Gordon is a really nice guy, and I know he had trouble with his previous game, lilt line, also, despite the press it received. Hope they can bring it to other platforms and recoup some of the cost.

You're lying. Lilt line was an iOS game. Obviously it made huge buckets of money. Everybody has been telling me that in this topic.

 

[Ponn]

I think this is a good example of what ive been trying to say about the PSplus effect. This was an interesting title that could have benefited from word of mouth. Everyone who would have given it a shot had PSplus, told themselves i have a backlog already, I will just wait for it to go free. After all, how many games have i bought that went free a short time later.

 

[BlockheadBrown]

Games are not investments.

But yeah, I suppose if this $8 game was at retail you would have made $0.50 back when trading it in for a PS4. Score!

He's talking about the money he spent and wanting to get the most out of it, not a stock portfolio. Jeez. They are investments of time. They are worth something when you pay for them. If you can continue to get enjoyment out of a game you purchased a few years ago, why wouldn't you? If that ability isn't available to you due to a lack of supporting hardware, you'd have to either purchase the hardware again, or in Sony's case (going by the current "support" of PS2 titles on PSN), repurchase the product.

I don't think Sony would be wise to make consumers have to re-purchase PSN titles if they're available on the PS4. Maybe Gaikai is part of the plan. We won't know until later. If some type of backwards compatibility/re-download without re-purchase isn't available, anything one purchases on PSN now has a limited shelf life unless you keep your PS3. If the rumors of backwards compatibility for the next Xbox are true, then this shouldn't be an issue with the next Xbox. It isn't an issue with PC games at this point.

Personally, I love having the ability to play games I've played before. It doesn't mean that I don't want the new stuff. Additionally, I really don't want a bunch of consoles building up on my shelf if I don't have to. Sony initially introduced this with PS1 b/c on the PS2. Continued (for a time) with the PS2 on the PS3. Microsoft followed suit with a number of titles on the 360 (as long as you had a HD). Nintendo offered Gamecube b/c with the Wii and will offer Wii b/c with the Wii U (still wish it'd play Gamecube titles though). The point is, there is a precedent for having backwards compatibility.

::steps off soapbox::

 

[Clear]

The problem as much as anything seems to be lack of reviews/launch coverage by the media.
5 reviews on Metacritic after all this time shows it was simply ignored by most of the enthusiast press.

It was adequately promoted on the EU blog (at least 2 different trailers) and I certainly was aware of its existence enough to buy it the day it popped up.


Its a nice little game, and its a shame its done so poorly. Original IP's like this need promotion by the enthusiast press or they don't stand a chance. Derrick's fate is not out of the ordinary under the circumstances.

 

[Kenshin001]

I definitely agree that the PSN Store, especially the new one, could be organized better, but why should Sony fund the marketing of the game?

Little no-name games seem to get overlooked by gaming media, unfortunately.

It's in Sony's best interests for games and especially exclusive games to have healthy sales on the platform. They are competing with other services. I don't think they should be subsidising any old crap though.

RCR is hardly a little no name game. The lack of reviews for the game just seem odd.

 

[patapuf]

AFAIK (and I admit to not keeping up with the rumours too much) it is confirmed that the PS4 will not have a cell processor. This pretty much rules out backwards compat because emulating a cell on a non-cell would be a bitch, and Sony learnt from the PS3/Emotion Engine fiasco that putting a custom chip in your machines just for backwards compat is a bit of a mistake.

That pretty much leaves any PS3 DD owners with two outcomes - 1) some DD gets ported (probably the most successful) or 2) it just dies.

In the event that it gets ported, I'd imagine people being forced to double-dip if they wanted to play it on their new consoles. If it remains un-ported in the PS3 store then you can either continue purchasing PS3s to play your old DD content, or just write it off. Either way, you're significantly out of pocket.

This has certainly lead to my decision to not buy any DD software on consoles in the last year, and may play a large part in whether I go DD on any new consoles. Part of what I love about my hobby is my archive of stuff - my Saturn, my Dreamcast, my Snes, my GC etc etc, all with tangible software that I can collect. If software isn't tangible, I don't own it, I just lease it and my interest wanes somewhat.

You won't be able to take your physical PS3 purchases to PS4 either though.

and with how important patches are for some games they aren't as independend from PSN as games on older consoles.

 

[Audioboxer]

How much does this sell for on PSN? (can't check right now) I have a feeling it's outside of the impulse range for something that isn't acclaimed/hyped out the wazzoo. An indie title not meeting that criteria and selling for over £5 exclusively on one console is asking to be sent to it's death.

Even I'm currently unsure if I want to buy Okami HD yet, Capcoms pricing of it is too high, should be £9.99 IMO. People want good value for money when buying digitally.

Someone said earlier in here I believe the guy only makes £1 per sale, that is pretty weak, especially if it's a £7.99/£9.99 title.

£1 at £4.99... meh, guess that's what you'd expect and at that price it should sell decently (if someone tells me it is £4.99, /cry, but I have a feeling it's £7-10).

 

[Massa]

He's talking about the money he spent and wanting to get the most out of it, not a stock portfolio. Jeez. They are investments of time. They are worth something when you pay for them. If you can continue to get enjoyment out of a game you purchased a few years ago, why wouldn't you? If that ability isn't available to you due to a lack of supporting hardware, you'd have to either purchase the hardware again, or in Sony's case (going by the current "support" of PS2 titles on PSN), repurchase the product.

I don't think Sony would be wise to make consumers have to re-purchase PSN titles if they're available on the PS4. Maybe Gaikai is part of the plan. We won't know until later. If some type of backwards compatibility/re-download without re-purchase isn't available, anything one purchases on PSN now has a limited shelf life unless you keep your PS3. If the rumors of backwards compatibility for the next Xbox are true, then this shouldn't be an issue with the next Xbox. It isn't an issue with PC games at this point.

Personally, I love having the ability to play games I've played before. It doesn't mean that I don't want the new stuff. Additionally, I really don't want a bunch of consoles building up on my shelf if I don't have to. Sony initially introduced this with PS1 b/c on the PS2. Continued (for a time) with the PS2 on the PS3. Microsoft followed suit with a number of titles on the 360 (as long as you had a HD). Nintendo offered Gamecube b/c with the Wii and will offer Wii b/c with the Wii U (still wish it'd play Gamecube titles though). The point is, there is a precedent for having backwards compatibility.

::steps off soapbox::

If you want to continue to play your PS3 library you just keep your PS3. It's that simple.

The idea of ignoring an entire platform of games for years because you plan to save less than $100 when you purchase the PS4 really makes no sense to me. Of course, the PS4 could still have PS3 backwards compatibility... and it would cost quite a bit more for it, like the PS3 did.

 

[jbug617]

This game came out when PSN had that week when they released around 4 games (Retro City Rampage I believe came out the same week)

 

[km3k]

I don't know. I barely heard of FTL or Amnesia before release, they were certainly not hyped, and yet they sold a ton. Word of mouth has a much bigger impact than a demo I'd say.

In fact I'd wager the majority of the indie successes on PC have had no demo.

Amnesia does have a demo and has had one for a long time: http://www.amnesiagame.com/#demo

 

[Melchiah]

It's in Sony's best interests for games and especially exclusive games to have healthy sales on the platform. They are competing with other services. I don't think they should be subsidising any old crap though.

RCR is hardly a little no name game. The lack of reviews for the game just seem odd.

I meant DtD.

And while I agree that exclusives could use more marketing, I don't think the sole responsibility lies on Sony's shoulders.

 

[BlockheadBrown]

If you want to continue to play your PS3 library you just keep your PS3. It's that simple.

The idea of ignoring an entire platform of games for years because you plan to save less than $100 when you purchase the PS4 really makes no sense to me. Of course, the PS4 could still have PS3 backwards compatibility... and it would cost quite a bit more for it, like the PS3 did.

As I've mentioned, that is an option. It's just not a favorable one.

 

[kurtrussell]

You won't be able to take your physical PS3 purchases to PS4 either though.

That's accurate, but I'd hope in time that there may be enough hackery and raw power for a PC to emulate to some degree (not 100% chip accurate emulation - I know that is unrealistic in my lifetime, but enough dirty hacks and work done so I can play my games two, five or even ten years down the line).

If you want to continue to play your PS3 library you just keep your PS3. It's that simple.

And then the PS3 dies and if I want to continue accessing DD, I have to buy a new one. It's not the same with physical media. In that scenario, I may decide to pop them on my shelf with my other collections and as time goes on, hope for a route to play them through emulation.

 

[snoopeasystreet]

If you want to continue to play your PS3 library you just keep your PS3. It's that simple.

The idea of ignoring an entire platform of games for years because you plan to save less than $100 when you purchase the PS4 really makes no sense to me.

What happens if Sony decides to shut down PSN for PS3 and you no longer have the ability to download the games you purchased online?

 

[LiquidSolid]

I think this is a good example of what ive been trying to say about the PSplus effect. This was an interesting title that could have benefited from word of mouth. Everyone who would have given it a shot had PSplus, told themselves i have a backlog already, I will just wait for it to go free. After all, how many games have i bought that went free a short time later.

Good example? Where exactly is your proof that this is even remotely true? And how do you explain it when games bomb on other services?

Your "PSplus effect" theory comes across as complete rubbish.

 

[kurtrussell]

Surely when a game is thrown up for free on PSplus, Sony pay the developer a set fee?

 

[Pranay]

Surely when a game is thrown up for free on PSplus, Sony pay the developer a set fee?

Yes.

I again forgot how it worked :\

 

[pharmboy044]

It's in Sony's best interests for games and especially exclusive games to have healthy sales on the platform. They are competing with other services. I don't think they should be subsidising any old crap though.

RCR is hardly a little no name game. The lack of reviews for the game just seem odd.

Look at metacritic and you can see that PSN games hardly get reviewed. Not sure whose fault that is but that's a fact. Also, for every disappointment, there is a success story. Look at Tokyo Jungle. We just can't predict this.

 

[chubigans]

Yes.

I again forgot how it worked :\

They get a certain amount of money per user download.

Also, I love how some people think they can just throw up a game on Steam and make hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I have tried to get on Steam for the last two years. I am really not any closer in doing so. To say it's difficult is the understatement of the century.

 

[Escape Goat]

wel, was the game any good? You can blame release timing or PSN but if the game sucks its all moot right?

 

[Oneself]

Blaming PSN is kinda stupid.
It would have done badly everywhere else even with its charming looks.
There was no PR, no marketing, no DEMO, nothing. Also, it's based on an already not so popular game called Ecco The Dolphin in some ways. How is it supposed to appeal to the mass market? It's nothing ground breaking, it's not "that good" and it's up against the biggest releases of the year...

A different timing would have definitely helped...

 

[Kenshin001]

Look at metacritic and you can see that PSN games hardly get reviewed. Not sure whose fault that is but that's a fact. Also, for every disappointment, there is a success story. Look at Tokyo Jungle. We just can't predict this.

I know, I mentioned that about 2 or 3 pages back.

 

[JasoNsider]

hey failing indies: releasing everything on Steam.

It's actually kind of disheartening to see people think getting on Steam is as easy as popping open the upload form and putting up your build. Haha.

Getting on to steam right now is sometimes a live or die situation and we have very little control over it. If you can imagine, for a moment, that youtube only had videos that went through a very mysterious application and selection process, yet the userbase stayed the exact same. You have a situation where you need to have content on this distributor to gain enough discoverability, yet the only way to get on there is to somehow get the golden ticket in the chocolate bar (basically the steam situation).

We're going through Greenlight right now and working to somehow find that golden ticket.

 

[Ponn]

Good example? Where exactly is your proof that this is even remotely true? And how do you explain it when games bomb on other services?

Your "PSplus effect" theory comes across as complete rubbish.

You're right, i'm the only person in the entire world with Plus that was interested in Deathfin but held off knowing it would be free down the road.

With smaller indie titles like this it can show up alot more. Definitely other factors going on too like the crowded release, but to act like everyone is buying games normally with no consideration for PSplus at all is ridiculous. It will become more and more apparent as time goes on, especially if they try and carry it over to PS4.

Surely when a game is thrown up for free on PSplus, Sony pay the developer a set fee?

Yes. Not until it goes up there though. That's why i'm not to worried about the developer here. Unless Sony gets a bug up their ass and doesn't put it up on Plus, then he's screwed.

 

[BlockheadBrown]

We're going through Greenlight right now and working to somehow find that golden ticket.

Link?

 

[pharmboy044]

I know, I mentioned that about 2 or 3 pages back.

Ah okay. Sorry I missed that.

 

[BlockheadBrown]

I have tried to get on Steam for the last two years. I am really not any closer in doing so. To say it's difficult is the understatement of the century.

I'm assuming you've tried for Greenlight. Regardless, put up a few links, if you don't mind.

 

[Metalmurphy]

They get a certain amount of money per user download.

Also, I love how some people think they can just throw up a game on Steam and make hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I have tried to get on Steam for the last two years. I am really not any closer in doing so. To say it's difficult is the understatement of the century.

Nope. They get a sum based on an estimate.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=42843075&postcount=97

 

[Jill Sandwich]

Sony need to bring back Yaroze, as a developer community and market.

 

[Shiloa]

You're right, i'm the only person in the entire world with Plus that was interested in Deathfin but held off knowing it would be free down the road.

With smaller indie titles like this it can show up alot more.

Since PS+ has changed, I'm actually expecting this far less. Getting full retail titles is now more common. The number of PSN releases we get is much fewer.

 

[BlockheadBrown]

Regarding getting on Steam: What about Desura?

 

[Noogy]

Also, I love how some people think they can just throw up a game on Steam and make hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I have tried to get on Steam for the last two years. I am really not any closer in doing so. To say it's difficult is the understatement of the century.

Agreed, and I get a little tired of people getting on an indie's case if they end up choosing one DD service over another. Making games is hard, finding a distribution option is hard. The guy released his game on a MAJOR platform and for that I congratulate him. It's a real shame sales haven't been better, though. Visually the game looks beautiful.

 

[chubigans]

Nope. They get a sum based on an estimate.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=42843075&postcount=97

That's not what one of the Insomniac dudes suggested...interesting.

I'm assuming you've tried for Greenlight. Regardless, put up a few links, if you don't mind.

I will gladly self promote my games.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=93011363
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=100875859

 

[Deband]

Link?

Yeah. I'm sure GAF could give you a little push.

 

[BlockheadBrown]

I will gladly self promote my games.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=93011363
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=100875859

These look awesome! Voted and added to favorites! I'll watch the vids for 'em once I get back home. Thanks!

 

[LiquidSolid]

You're right, i'm the only person in the entire world with Plus that was interested in Deathfin but held off knowing it would be free down the road.

With smaller indie titles like this it can show up alot more. Definitely other factors going on too like the crowded release, but to act like everyone is buying games normally with no consideration for PSplus at all is ridiculous. It will become more and more apparent as time goes on, especially if they try and carry it over to PS4.

When you show me a chart of TOTAL game sales declining in relation to PS+ subscriptions, then I might start to believe. Until then, I'll throw your argument into the same scrap heap that contains similarly ridiculous arguments against Steam (that people don't buy games at full price because of the sales and so on).

Meanwhile, I'll stick with the argument I've had for a while:
a) PS+ helps promote games that otherwise may not have done well and offers them a lump sum payment.
b) PS+ promotes the PS Store, resulting in more traffic and, ultimately, more purchases.
c) People will buy more video games regardless of their backlogs because humans are irrational and like collecting stuff they like (see: all the ridiculous Steam libraries, including mine).

I think there were another couple of points I had the last time this debate came up but I believe those are the major ones.

 

[SparkTR]

I will gladly self promote my games.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=93011363
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=100875859

I am stunned The Oil Blue is not yet on Steam.

 

[JasoNsider]

Link?

Sure!

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92922470

edit:

Regarding getting on Steam: What about Desura?

That's precisely what we're doing As most will tell you though, there is an incredibly small fraction of audience that goes there though.

 

[Goldenroad]

Getting into business for yourself is inherently risky. Games are certainly no exception to that rule. I don't think there is much else to be discussed on that topic.

 

[HamPster PamPster]

Nope. They get a sum based on an estimate.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=42843075&postcount=97

That's not what one of the Insomniac dudes suggested...interesting.

Deals are probably worked out on a game to game basis. A game from EA going free on Plus day one surely gets a much sweeter deal than an indie developer going free 9 months after release

 

[BomberMouse]

I think this is a good example of what ive been trying to say about the PSplus effect. This was an interesting title that could have benefited from word of mouth. Everyone who would have given it a shot had PSplus, told themselves i have a backlog already, I will just wait for it to go free. After all, how many games have i bought that went free a short time later.

This, when I was a plus user I never bought a single game I saw associated with plus because I know it'd be free in a few months, even if it wasn't I simply moved on. Somehow the idea of PS+ I think hurts some developers.

 

[Withnail]

Deals are probably worked out on a game to game basis. A game from EA going free on Plus day one surely gets a much sweeter deal than an indie developer going free 9 months after release

Also Insomniac's games are published by Sony so the deal is obviously going to be different for them than for a third party.

 

[Torgo]

My Review

A seriously fun game

 

[BlockheadBrown]

Sure! http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92922470

Thumbed up and added to favorites! Awesome looking game! Would Nintendo be an option?

 

[SapientWolf]

Did it come out when Sony decided to release like 50 games on PSN at the same time? Oh Sony.

 

[BlockheadBrown]

On topic, I was interested in it. The gameplay video didn't do anything to move me towards buying it though. Maybe a demo would have helped. After seeing this though, there really is a temptation to purchase it. I wonder if sympathy has helped recent sales. For their sake, I hope it has.

Love the art style, BTW.

 

[Delusibeta]

And then the PS3 dies and if I want to continue accessing DD, I have to buy a new one. It's not the same with physical media. In that scenario, I may decide to pop them on my shelf with my other collections and as time goes on, hope for a route to play them through emulation.

Of course, let's be frank here: 90% of the people who use emulators use them to play games they've never owned. Pirating a game you have bought legally via digital distribution is OK in my book.

 

[Dog Problems]

You're lying. Lilt line was an iOS game. Obviously it made huge buckets of money. Everybody has been telling me that in this topic.

It was also ported to WiiWare.

 

[Empty]

That's sad. Gordon is a really nice guy, and I know he had trouble with his previous game, lilt line, also, despite the press it received. Hope they can bring it to other platforms and recoup some of the cost.
.

eek no kidding, guy can't seem to catch a commercial break

Gordon Midwood, developer of rhythm game Lilt Line and founder of one-man game company Different Cloth, has revealed disappointing sales figures for both the iOS version and the WiiWare version of his game.

Midwood posted iPhone sales totaling 3,815 since the game's launch in May 2009. The game won the Audio Achievement Award at IGF Mobile 2010.

The WiiWare version, developed by Gaijin Games, has sold just 3,756 copies since its release in December 2010 in the U.S. Midwood noted that "if we don’t get past a threshold around twice that in America, Nintendo will never pay us anything."

http://gamasutra.com/view/news/3349...WiiWare_Sales_Numbers_To_Date.php#.UKKkxYWRHf

 

[Joni]

I hope all those iOS/Steam people in this topic read that. It sold as much on iOS as on the almost dead WiiWare (by that time) and that is comparing worldwide iOS sales to American WiiWare sales.