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[Glasshole]

[For those who don't know, Quo vadis means "Where are you going?"]

I've searched for similar topics, or even a Steam OS Discussion thread, but only found the general threads for Steam. If I've missed something, vulkanize me.

As many others in this forum, I was very interested in SteamOS, but was taken aback by the lack of performance in its current state, which sadly caused a number of OEM manufacturers to freeze their efforts to bring a steam machine to the market. Understandably so: We weren't talking about about 2-3 percent, the drop in performance compared to Windows 10 would in some cases make the difference between "playable" and sub-30fps. For now I'll ignore 60fps-GAF's opinion on this matter.

Now as far as I know, there's nothing new to report on the OpenGL performance front: I've searched the web, but this topic hasn't been picked up again yet, although I have little doubt it will at some point.

There is a reason why I'm making this topic nowish though. No thread was made for this, but I think this is kind of a big deal: SteamOS natively supports Vulkan since February 22nd... So this got me thinking.

First of all, and this is also a question for GAF since I couldn't find a coherent answer on this: Vulkan doesn't change the performance of games that weren't built on it. Is this correct? So for example, Left for Dead 2, which was optimized for OpenGL, won't perform better through Vulkan, even though it's OpenGL's successor.

This is not correct.

To fully leverage the performance advantages of Vulkan (or any other low level API) you have to target it from the ground up.

However, even a direct port can have significant performance advantages. In the initial Vulkan version of The Talos Principle, described by the developer as a quick port, I measured up to a 50% performance advantage over OpenGL in CPU limited scenarios. (On a beta Vulkan driver no less)

Of course, a direct port still requires some time and effort, it's not a 1:1 mapping.

If this were true (it isn't according to Durante, but let's assume it is), here is why it probably isn't a big deal: Even though the game catalogue unoptimized for Vulkan is huge, this problem posts only a timed disadvantage at best. Most of these unoptimized games (let's estimate all games pre-2006, even though this is not entirely true) will run perfectly fine through raw CPU/GPU power, which in most cases even an Intel/Intel HD combo is able to accomplish. So as CPUs and GPUs get stronger in quick cycles even today, the games that are running in a sub-par fashion nowadays will work eventually if you throw enough TFLOPS at them, so to speak. Which would mean that the only question that matters is (and I guess the entire discussion boils down to this)...

...will Vulkan catch on, and if it does, do you believe SteamOS will gain market percentage, or will it eventually die a slow painful death? Is it already dead, since its market share plummeted below 1% on Steam [citation needed]? Are there other reasons why you believe people (users, not OEMs) are staying away from SteamOS?

Did Valve put too much on its plate by initiating a war with two frontiers, consoles on one side and Windows 10 on the other?

Link to the GAF Vulkan Thread
To clarify, this thread is meant to focus on the SteamOS-factor rather than Vulkan itself - that's what the Vulkan thread is for.

 

[sinxtanx]

I don't think SteamOS matters that much right now, but as Vulkan gains ground (and it will do so fast thanks to widespread support from GPU manufacturers and UE4) Linux gaming should get more viable over time.

Overall I don't believe that SteamOS is a particularily high-stakes investment for Valve, they don't even make their own SteamBoxes right?. It'll continue to be a neat alternative. "War" is a harsh term. More like "new lemonade flavor introduced".

 

[Crayon]

Steamos can't be separated from steam for Linux. They are two sides of the same coin.

Thanks to Steam on Linux, the market for proprietary games on Linux has gone from a fantasy to reality in 3 short years.

Mission accomplished. The rest is details.

 

[Durante]

Vulkan doesn't change the performance of games that weren't built on it. Is this correct? So for example, Left for Dead 2, which was optimized for OpenGL, won't perform better through Vulkan, even though it's OpenGL's successor.

This is not correct.

To fully leverage the performance advantages of Vulkan (or any other low level API) you have to target it from the ground up.

However, even a direct port can have significant performance advantages. In the initial Vulkan version of The Talos Principle, described by the developer as a quick port, I measured up to a 50% performance advantage over OpenGL in CPU limited scenarios. (On a beta Vulkan driver no less)

Of course, a direct port still requires some time and effort, it's not a 1:1 mapping.

 

[Glasshole]

This is not correct.

To fully leverage the performance advantages of Vulkan (or any other low level API) you have to target it from the ground up.

However, even a direct port can have significant performance advantages. In the initial Vulkan version of The Talos Principle, described by the developer as a quick port, I measured up to a 50% performance advantage over OpenGL in CPU limited scenarios. (On a beta Vulkan driver no less)

Of course, a direct port still requires some time and effort, it's not a 1:1 mapping.

Given your impressive CV, I'll add this to the OP

 

[Glasshole]

Steamos can't be separated from steam for Linux. They are two sides of the same coin.

Thanks to Steam on Linux, the market for proprietary games on Linux has gone from a fantasy to reality in 3 short years.

Mission accomplished. The rest is details.

Fair point, but as long as Linux users make less than 1% of the market with a negative trend, I'm not sure developers will keep porting their games to Linux. Also, I think Valve itself is dedicating quite some resources into their SteamOS/Steam Controller/Steam Machine ecosystem, so the success of it is kind of important?

 

[BocoDragon]

I still think that SteamOS exists mainly to support the idea of Steam machines - putting the Steam ecosystem into the living room. They certainly can't ship with Windows as that costs money, so they have this solution which... works. But if you take a Steam machine and install Windows on it yourself for greater compatibility, all the better since you're still going to be a Steam customer.

It might have been seen as a potential exit strategy from Windows if MS really did start to lock down gaming to the App Store (circa Windows 8 fears), but it doesn't really seem like that's happening?

 

[Iced_Eagle]

Fair point, but as long as Linux users make less than 1% of the market with a negative trend, I'm not sure developers will keep porting their games to Linux. Also, I think Valve itself is dedicating quite some resources into their SteamOS/Steam Controller/Steam Machine ecosystem, so the success of it is kind of important?

I was reading that Big Picture does not display the HW survey and thus anyone who primarily is in BP won't be counted since they'll never be offered. Considering SteamOS is designed to be used in Big Picture it is very likely missing Linux users being counted in that list, so I don't think it's accurate to say it's following a negative trend (plus, one month negative != trend).

 

[Glasshole]

I still think that SteamOS exists mainly to support the idea of Steam machines - putting the Steam ecosystem into the living room. They certainly can't ship with Windows as that costs money, so they have this solution which... works. But if you take a Steam machine and install Windows on it yourself for greater compatibility, all the better since you're still going to be a Steam customer.

It might have been seen as a potential exit strategy from Windows if MS really did start to lock down gaming to the App Store (circa Windows 8 fears), but it doesn't really seem like that's happening?

Well, we have this thread here to restart the fire...

I think the exit strategy might now be more important than at Windows 8 times, seeing as Windows 8 had nowhere near the acceptance rate as Windows 10. So if anything ever was a threat, it's 10 - especially with its Windows As A Service model.

I was reading that Big Picture does not display the HW survey and thus anyone who primarily is in BP won't be counted since they'll never be offered. Considering SteamOS is designed to be used in Big Picture it is very likely missing Linux users being counted in that list, so I don't think it's accurate to say it's following a negative trend (plus, one month negative != trend).

Very interesting, can you post a source for that by any chance? The BP not being counted I mean.

I should have clarified: By trend, I meant that Steam's Linux quote has been going down steadily since Valve's TF2 Linux port, not just the last few months.

 

[Nzyme32]

I still think that SteamOS exists mainly to support the idea of Steam machines - putting the Steam ecosystem into the living room. They certainly can't ship with Windows as that costs money, so they have this solution which... works. But if you take a Steam machine and install Windows on it yourself for greater compatibility, all the better since you're still going to be a Steam customer.

It might have been seen as a potential exit strategy from Windows if MS really did start to lock down gaming to the App Store (circa Windows 8 fears), but it doesn't really seem like that's happening?

One of the big reasons for SteamOS / Linux outside of the Machines, is a contingency against Microsoft moving Windows to a closed system. You can hear Gabe talk about it in his Dice 2013 talk - https://youtu.be/PeYxKIDGh8I

 

[LilJoka]

One of the big reasons for SteamOS / Linux outside of the Machines, is a contingency against Microsoft moving Windows to a closed system. You can hear Gabe talk about it in his Dice 2013 talk - https://youtu.be/PeYxKIDGh8I

Pretty much this, the library growth means valve have more leverage.

 

[ricki42]

Fair point, but as long as Linux users make less than 1% of the market with a negative trend, I'm not sure developers will keep porting their games to Linux. Also, I think Valve itself is dedicating quite some resources into their SteamOS/Steam Controller/Steam Machine ecosystem, so the success of it is kind of important?

In addition of what Iced_Eagle said about SteamOS not getting the survey, the Linux percentage staying roughly the same means that Linux is growing at about the same rate as Windows, so the absolute number of Linux users is still going up. Also, whenever developers publish sales figures by platform, Linux usually has more than 1%. Of course, even 2-4% is still low.
Another thing is that we don't have numbers from GOG.com. Some Linux users are staunchly anti-DRM, and I suspect that there are relatively more people on Linux who are GOG (or humblebundle) only than there are on Windows.

 

[BocoDragon]

One of the big reasons for SteamOS / Linux outside of the Machines, is a contingency against Microsoft moving Windows to a closed system. You can hear Gabe talk about it in his Dice 2013 talk - https://youtu.be/PeYxKIDGh8I

Hmm that does make sense.

 

[Nzyme32]

In addition of what Iced_Eagle said about SteamOS not getting the survey, the Linux percentage staying roughly the same means that Linux is growing at about the same rate as Windows, so the absolute number of Linux users is still going up. Also, whenever developers publish sales figures by platform, Linux usually has more than 1%. Of course, even 2-4% is still low.
Another thing is that we don't have numbers from GOG.com. Some Linux users are staunchly anti-DRM, and I suspect that there are relatively more people on Linux who are GOG (or humblebundle) only than there are on Windows.

This always gets overlooked. I'm surprised Linux distros are keeping up with the growth of Steam, which has been particularly strong these past months

 

[Glasshole]

One of the big reasons for SteamOS / Linux outside of the Machines, is a contingency against Microsoft moving Windows to a closed system. You can hear Gabe talk about it in his Dice 2013 talk - https://youtu.be/PeYxKIDGh8I

I am familiar with that talk, and obviously Valve is doing the best they can to protect their market share. I don't know, however, if SteamOS can be understood as a classic contingency plan ("if X, then Y") rather than a silent threat ("we'll go all out if you make a wrong move").

But again: For all of their efforts to be considered successful, wouldn't Steam Machines and SteamOS be required to have at least a moderate success or a noticable following?

 

[Crayon]

Fair point, but as long as Linux users make less than 1% of the market with a negative trend, I'm not sure developers will keep porting their games to Linux. Also, I think Valve itself is dedicating quite some resources into their SteamOS/Steam Controller/Steam Machine ecosystem, so the success of it is kind of important?

It's been fluctuating around 1% for awhile, but in the meantime steam has been growing.

Whatever it is, it's enough users to support a sort of cottage industry of indies and popular ports. It just has to be a little seaworthy lifeboat for now. There's no particular rush.

Steam Machines get focused on because its tempting to compare them to consoles but in reality a steam machine is a set of alternatives all in a box. Those being: the controller the steamos and the linux games market. Individually, these components are coming along all at their own pace.

 

[ricki42]

Very interesting, can you post a source for that by any chance? The BP not being counted I mean.

From Valve's steam-for-linux github

I don't believe this is intended to work on any platform (Big Picture just doesn't do surveying), but leaving this open in case that's incorrect.

I meant "not intended to work" in the sense that the work hasn't been done to hook it up so this isn't a bug where code isn't working as intended. Having survey information would be valuable and eventually that'll get added.

So they're planning on adding it to BPM, but it's not currently implemented.

 

[Nzyme32]

I am familiar with that talk, and obviously Valve is doing the best they can to protect their market share. I don't know, however, if SteamOS can be understood as a classic contingency plan ("if X, then Y") rather than a silent threat ("we'll go all out if you make a wrong move").

But again: For all of their efforts to be considered successful, wouldn't Steam Machines and SteamOS be required to have at least a moderate success or a noticable following?

I can't be bothered finding the exact part, but it is very specifically about the openness of the PC being the important thing.

"Our company wouldn't exist if it weren't for the openness of the PC. Steam wouldn't exist if not for the openness of the Internet"

“[Linux] is a get-out-of-jail free pass for our industry if we need it”

 

[Gemüsepizza]

The future belongs to Windows 10 and DX12.

convenience/comfort + best performance > rest

The majority of customers and developers do not care about confused and radical, ideological concepts . Devs care about how easy it is to develop good games, they care about the quality of tools, support and documentation. Consumers care about being able to play their games on day one with the best performance possible, and without having to waste time. W10/DX12 is lightyears ahead of the competition and is the new PC gaming standard.

 

[Crayon]

The future belongs to Windows 10 and DX12.

convenience/comfort > rest

The majority of customers and developers do not care about confused and radical, ideological concepts . Devs care about how easy it is to develop good games, they care about the quality of tools, support and documentation. Consumers care about being able to play their games on day one with the best performance possible, and without having to waste time. W10/DX12 is lightyears ahead of the competition and is the new PC gaming standard.

You really know how to spice up a thread!

 

[Nzyme32]

The future belongs to Windows 10 and DX12.

convenience/comfort + best performance > rest

The majority of customers and developers do not care about confused and radical, ideological concepts . Devs care about how easy it is to develop good games, they care about the quality of tools, support and documentation. Consumers care about being able to play their games on day one with the best performance possible, and without having to waste time. W10/DX12 is lightyears ahead of the competition and is the new PC gaming standard.

Didn't even read the thread. Classic dodgy-pizza

 

[Glasshole]

The future belongs to Windows 10 and DX12.

convenience/comfort > rest

The majority of customers and developers do not care about confused and radical, ideological concepts . Devs care about how easy it is to develop good games, they care about the quality of tools, support and documentation. Consumers care about being able to play their games on day one with the best performance possible, and without having to waste time. W10/DX12 is lightyears ahead of the competition and is the new PC gaming standard.

Convenience would dictate that a large chunk of players would stay with Steam.

Microsoft has neglected DirectX several times and only ignited the development of DirectX 12 after they felt the pressure from Vulkan. Devs, I would assume, car about the scalability of the engines that use specific backends? Besides, as both Steam and MS Store want an approx. 30% cut of each product sale, why would they go to the MS Store, when Valve uses every measure to (Steam Friends, Workshop, Community, etc) to shorten communication between customer and developer, build communities and thus bind the user closer to the platform?

Also, please back up your claim about DX12 and Windows 10 being "lightyears ahead of the competition". This all together just seems like a very week post based on a personal stance and little objective facts.

Didn't even read the thread. Classic dodgy-pizza

Is he known for shitposting?

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Didn't even read the thread. Classic dodgy-pizza

What are you talking about?

 

[Crayon]

Is he known for shitposting?

Try to have a coherent exchange with him. I double dog dare you.

 

[Glasshole]

Try to have a coherent exchange with him. I double dog dare you.

Not to derail, I'll try out of basic human decency.

What are you talking about?

Well, you didn't exactly hit the sweet spot of this discussion. Far from it actually. And you just spouted some biased nonsense. Reading some of your posts from the Sweeney-MS-Thread, you're quite defensive about MS anyway.But this thread isn't about MS.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Convenience would dictate that a large chunk of players would stay with Steam.

Yes. Steam on Windows.

Microsoft has neglected DirectX several times and only ignited the development of DirectX 12 after they felt the pressure from Vulkan. Devs, I would assume, car about the scalability of the engines that use specific backends?

While that's sort of true, they fixed it. And devs are happy. What devs also care about is, implementing new ideas on a stable and modern OS/API combination. They don't care about getting old stuff to run on an OS which is a mess.

Also, please back up your claim about DX12 and Windows 10 being "lightyears ahead of the competition". This all together just seems like a very week post based on a personal stance and little objective facts.

What? Windows offers the best ecosystem for games. That is a fact. It is easy to develop for, it is easy to use. And it has the best performance. It is the most popular PC OS with devs/publishers and gamers.

Is he known for shitposting?

No. It is just that Nzyme32 prefers to personally attack people who don't agree with his opinion, instead of arguing. He did something similiar in the thread about Tim Sweeney.

Try to have a coherent exchange with him. I double dog dare you.

Now that is shitposting.

Not to derail, I'll try out of basic human decency.

Well, you didn't exactly hit the sweet spot of this discussion. Far from it actually. And you just spouted some biased nonsense.

Actually, I did hit the topic perfectly. And contrary to you, I am at least able to formuate an argument instead of just claiming that someone is "spouting some biased nonsense". But thanks for the discussion mate.

Reading some of your posts from the Sweeney-MS-Thread, you're quite defensive about MS anyway.But this thread isn't about MS.

I am not generally defensive about Microsoft. Lots of stuff that they are/were wrong about. I am just allergic to bullshit. Oh, and btw. this thread is also about Microsoft and their offerings.. It says Windows 10 right in the title, smh.

 

[Crayon]

So yeah anyway.

Can we reliably extrapolate the absolute number of linux users from the percentage and the total steam users over the last year or would that get lost in the margin of error?

 

[ricki42]

convenience/comfort + best performance > rest

For the bolded: engadget steam machine review

The Alienware Steam Machine is everything that Windows-based PC "game consoles" aren't. It's easy to set up, easy to use, extremely reliable and practically idiot-proof. Let me invoke the Alienware Alpha one more time to illustrate this: When I booted up Dell's original media-center gaming PC for the first time, it presented me with a "grab your mouse and keyboard" Windows 8 setup screen. It was awful. The new machine? It showed me a simple outline of Valve's Steam Controller, asked me to press a single button and then effortlessly led me through signing EULAs, adjusting TV settings, setting up the internet and logging into Steam. It was easy.

The performance largely depends on the developers and the GPU drivers. I wouldn't judge Windows performance based on the port of Batman:AK either. The performance on Linux will improve as developers get more familiar with the system, and start developing with multiplatform in mind from the start rather than porting the finished game.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

I'm sorry, but convenience and comfort is much more than having a nice setup GUI.

Edit: And "performance will improve" is not good enough to be competitive. The problems with Linux performance are also not exclusively the fault of game devs and driver devs. Linux is just a very messy system to develop for, and it doesn't help that the people in charge of the Linux kernel and most distros don't care about gaming. Microsoft does.

 

[Thraktor]

This is not correct.

To fully leverage the performance advantages of Vulkan (or any other low level API) you have to target it from the ground up.

However, even a direct port can have significant performance advantages. In the initial Vulkan version of The Talos Principle, described by the developer as a quick port, I measured up to a 50% performance advantage over OpenGL in CPU limited scenarios. (On a beta Vulkan driver no less)

Of course, a direct port still requires some time and effort, it's not a 1:1 mapping.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it be possible to workaround lousy Linux OpenGL drivers by replacing them with a compatibility layer that translates OpenGL calls to Vulkan? Presumably to achieve really good performance in this scenario you'd need to put in the kind of expertise and resources that would usually go into the drivers themselves, but a company like Valve should have the expertise and definitely have the resources.

 

[Mindlog]

I've heard 'This is the year for Linux gaming!' almost as long as 'This is the year we take gaming seriously' from Apple.
We'll see, but I'm not placing any bets.

 

[Glasshole]

Yes. Steam on Windows.

While that's sort of true, they fixed it. And devs are happy. What devs also care about is, implementing new ideas on a stable and modern OS/API combination. They don't care about getting old stuff to run on an OS which is a mess.

What? Windows offers the best ecosystem for games. That is a fact. It is easy to develop for, it is easy to use. And it has the best performance. It is the most popular PC OS with devs/publishers and gamers.

Actually, I did hit the topic perfectly. And contrary to you, I am at least able to formuate an argument instead of just claiming that someone is "spouting some biased nonsense". But thanks for the discussion mate.

I am not generally defensive about Microsoft. Lots of stuff that they are/were wrong about. I am just allergic against bullshit. Oh, and btw. this thread is also about Microsoft and their offerings.. It says Windows right in the title, smh.

Do you read your posts before you hit "Submit Reply"? Jesus. Coherent exchange, challenge denied.

First of all: How is Linux a mess? Since when? Did I miss a memo? The majority of the worlds servers run on linux, it has a steadily growing market share in the desktop market, and most of the cellphones in the world run on it. I've been using Fedora/Ubuntu for years... Have you ever used linux?

"Windows offers the best ecosystem for games". Technically not true - or at least, define "best" to me. The most popular one would be Android if I'm not mistaken - as most games are being played on mobile nowadays.

You did absolutely not hit the topic perfectly, you just claimed some stuff without any source whatsoever, reliable or not, and stated them as facts. For someone who is supposedly allergic to bullshit, I'm surprised you're not asphyxiating. Not in the least bit did you address the main topic of the post - the SteamOS side of the argument.

"Oh, and btw. this thread is also about Microsoft and their offerings.. It says Windows right in the title, smh."

Can you get any more condescending or, to say it in your language, behave like an inadequate Klugscheisser? I wrote the OP - it says Windows there as a context indicator. That makes about as much sense as coming in here and saying that it doesn't matter, PS4 will destroy all competition - it says consoles right in the title! It's emphasized several times in the OP that this topic isn't even about Vulkan directly - it's about the implications and future of SteamOS.

 

[gamz]

I don't know man. I'm not sure if Linux will ever gain enough traction on the desktop side.

The only thing I can see happening is if SteamOS keeps improving and that might make a dent for gaming PC's bundles, but I'm not sure if Valve has the resources to go really hard core on it. Without big time backing from a major corp it's really, really hard to succeed with the big boys.

 

[Glasshole]

I'm sorry, but convenience and comfort is much more than having a nice setup GUI.

Edit: And "performance will improve" is not good enough to be competitive. The problems with Linux performance are also not exclusively the fault of game devs and driver devs. Linux is just a very messy system to develop for, and it doesn't help that the people in charge of the Linux kernel and most distros don't care about gaming. Microsoft does.

Yes, their GFWL efforts have been tremendous. And their plans for the original Xbox One DRM showed how much they cared about gaming, too.

I'm starting to see how you gathered such a reputation.

I'm sorry, but convenience and comfort is much more than having a nice setup GUI.

To quote the review: It's easy to set up, easy to use, extremely reliable and practically idiot-proof.

There isn't much more comfort in the world than that. Reliability and set-up ease has nothing to do with the GUI, either.

 

[gamz]

Do you read your posts before you hit "Submit Reply"? Jesus. Coherent exchange, challenge denied.

First of all: How is Linux a mess? Since when? Did I miss a memo? The majority of the worlds servers run on linux, it has a steadily growing market share in the desktop market, and most of the cellphones in the world run on it. I've been using Fedora/Ubuntu for years... Have you ever used linux?

"Windows offers the best ecosystem for games". Technically not true - or at least, define "best" to me. The most popular one would be Android if I'm not mistaken - as most games are being played on mobile nowadays.

You did absolutely not hit the topic perfectly, you just claimed some stuff without any source whatsoever, reliable or not, and stated them as facts. For someone who is supposedly allergic to bullshit, I'm surprised you're not asphyxiating. Not in the least bit did you address the main topic of the post - the SteamOS side of the argument.

"Oh, and btw. this thread is also about Microsoft and their offerings.. It says Windows right in the title, smh."

Can you get any more condescending or, to say it in your language, behave like an inadequate Klugscheisser? I wrote the OP - it says Windows there as a context indicator. That makes about as much sense as coming in here and saying that it doesn't matter, PS4 will destroy all competition - it says consoles right in the title! It's emphasized several times in the OP that this topic isn't even about Vulkan directly - it's about the implications and future of SteamOS.

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the sheer amount of eco's and stores on windows. Not just the windows store, but steam and whoever else owns a store.

Edit: I think?

I don't know what Linux is a mess comment mean? In all honesty it's come a long way over the years. Been using Mint for the past 3-4 and use Red Hat at work. It's a solid OS. Would I choose it over Windows or OSX? No.

 

[ricki42]

Can we reliably extrapolate the absolute number of linux users from the percentage and the total steam users over the last year or would that get lost in the margin of error?

I think that would be difficult. Like how do people who dual-boot / use Steam on wine show up in the survey? And we have no numbers at all from GOG.

I'm sorry, but convenience and comfort is much more than having a nice setup GUI.

So if 'easy', 'reliable', 'simple' don't qualify as convenient, what does?

 

[Massa]

Oh well, looks like thread is being derailed by one user.

SteamOS is a long term project. Just a few years ago Linux had no games, because nobody bought games on Linux, because Linux had no games.

Now there are nearly 2000 Linux games on Steam, but more importantly it's a much better gaming OS than it was then. AMD and nVidia have invested significantly more on their Linux drivers, middleware support has also significantly improved, as have developer tools for actually making games on Linux (I can actually use Unity on it now). And then you have Vulkan, which is the biggest threat in a decade+ to DirectX's dominance that has historically locked game developers to Windows.

There's not going to be a huge shift to Linux unless something catastrophic happens, but right now it doesn't cost much for everyone to just kind of support it, and like that things just keep getting better. The fact that Microsoft keeps pissing off developers also doesn't hurt.

 

[Glasshole]

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the sheer amount of eco's and stores on windows. Not just the windows store, but steam and whoever else owns a store.

Edit: I think?

You think, and I assumed. I still pointed it out because his statements are an incoherent generalist mess without sources or specification. Which is why I'm asking if he means the most popular - because that would be Android. Even if English is not your first language, which I'm not shaming (it isn't mine either), it doesn't give anyone a free pass on not formulating what exactly they mean. We can't read his mind.

 

[gamz]

You think, and I assumed. I still pointed it out because his statements are an incoherent generalist mess without sources or specification. Which is why I'm asking if he means the most popular - because that would be Android. Even if English is not your first language, which I'm not shaming (it isn't mine either), it doesn't give anyone a free pass on not formulating what exactly they mean. We can't read his mind.

To be fair he could be talking about desktop? Not mobile.

 

[Crayon]

I think that would be difficult. Like how do people who dual-boot / use Steam on wine show up in the survey? And we have no numbers at all from GOG.

Wine shows up as Windows. A lot. By that I mean it's easy to pop a survey when you install a new instance of steam in a separate prefix.

One interesting thing about vulkan and linux is internet cafes. They can get a performance boost on dota 2 while using a free os. Maybe save money on hardware. That could be significant in Asia. There's even a rumor on Reddit atbthe moment that a league client is in the works for linux and if it's true, id imagine it's a response to this situation.

 

[Glasshole]

Oh well, looks like thread is being derailed by one user.

SteamOS is a long term project. Just a few years ago Linux had no games, because nobody bought games on Linux, because Linux had no games.

Now there are nearly 2000 Linux games on Steam, but more importantly it's a much better gaming OS than it was then. AMD and nVidia have invested significantly more on their Linux drivers, middleware support has also significantly improved, as have developer tools for actually making games on Linux (I can actually use Unity on it now). And then you have Vulkan, which is the biggest threat in a decade+ to DirectX's dominance that has historically locked game developers to Windows.

There's not going to be a huge shift to Linux unless something catastrophic happens, but right now it doesn't cost much for everyone to just kind of support it, and like that things just keep getting better. The fact that Microsoft keeps pissing off developers also doesn't hurt.

Thank you for bringing us back on track.

Speaking about "it doesn't cost much for everyone to just kind of support it" - I'd argue that it costs too much right now, which is a cost that could be brought down if you write your engine with Vulkan in mind from the beginning, which is important for the long term project. That way, even if Steam on Linux performs badly, game development for Linux can be secured even though there's only a handful of customers of linux - which gives Valve/Sweeney/Devs leverage over Microsoft, and raises the pressure to keep Windows an open platform.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Do you read your posts before you hit "Submit Reply"? Jesus. Coherent exchange, challenge denied.

First of all: How is Linux a mess? Since when? Did I miss a memo?

It surely seems so. Linux is a mess because every distro wants to do their own thing, and has it's own quirks. This makes development for consumer software, which needs to be polished and easy to use, difficult.

The majority of the worlds servers run on linux,

I doubt that. And what is your point even? There are completely different requirements compared to gaming.

it has a steadily growing market share in the desktop market

No. Just no.

and most of the cellphones in the world run on it.

They run Android. This isn't just Linux.

I've been using Fedora/Ubuntu for years... Have you ever used linux?

Well, I am working in a sysadmin environment where we use RHEL and Debian Linux servers, so yes, I have used Linux at times. Lol.

"Windows offers the best ecosystem for games". Technically not true - or at least, define "best" to me. The most popular one would be Android if I'm not mistaken - as most games are being played on mobile nowadays.

Technically I did say "best", not "popular". Which, technically, is not the same.

You did absolutely not hit the topic perfectly, you just claimed some stuff without any source whatsoever, reliable or not, and stated them as facts. For someone who is supposedly allergic to bullshit, I'm surprised you're not asphyxiating. Not in the least bit did you address the main topic of the post - the SteamOS side of the argument.

Most of those points are well known. It's just that some people get angry if you describe to them how the world is, instead how they want the world to be. And I did refer to SteamOS in my post. I don't see it having any relevance in the future.

"Oh, and btw. this thread is also about Microsoft and their offerings.. It says Windows right in the title, smh."

Can you get any more condescending or, to say it in your language, behave like an inadequate Klugscheisser?

Being a bit condescending (which is also subjective imo) is at least better than being outright insulting.

I wrote the OP - it says Windows there as a context indicator. That makes about as much sense as coming in here and saying that it doesn't matter, PS4 will destroy all competition - it says consoles right in the title! It's emphasized several times in the OP that this topic isn't even about Vulkan directly - it's about the implications and future of SteamOS.

You have literally asked what the future of SteamOS vs Windows is. I said that I think Windows is superior, and that SteamOS won't be relevant in the future, including my reasons for this stance.

 

[gamz]

Oh well, looks like thread is being derailed by one user.

SteamOS is a long term project. Just a few years ago Linux had no games, because nobody bought games on Linux, because Linux had no games.

Now there are nearly 2000 Linux games on Steam, but more importantly it's a much better gaming OS than it was then. AMD and nVidia have invested significantly more on their Linux drivers, middleware support has also significantly improved, as have developer tools for actually making games on Linux (I can actually use Unity on it now). And then you have Vulkan, which is the biggest threat in a decade+ to DirectX's dominance that has historically locked game developers to Windows.

There's not going to be a huge shift to Linux unless something catastrophic happens, but right now it doesn't cost much for everyone to just kind of support it, and like that things just keep getting better. The fact that Microsoft keeps pissing off developers also doesn't hurt.

But it's not going to matter if Linux can't gain any traction and it hasn't in how many years now. The reality is you aren't going to compete with major corps. Just look a the dominate OS's now. I mean I just don't see it? Hell, MS itself can't gain any traction in the phone market now. That just shows you how damn hard it is.

 

[Moosichu]

I have Windows (for gaming) and Linux on my laptop. Both have their pros and cons but Linux is getting better, slowly and surely, ar doing games. Both in terms of performance and Games availab.

Outside of gaming, they both have their plusses and minuses, but I am choosing to boot into Linux 90% of the time.

I'm running Ubuntu Gnome and it boots so quickly (about 4x as fast as Windows, without a slow period where stuff hangs for ages while everything 'warms up')

Ease-of-use is massively improving, you can install Gnome extensions to customise your desktop straight from the browser with 1-click and see them immediately take effect, it's like magic.

I still wouldn't trust someone to install it, but once a machine is set-up it's far less confusing for users vs Windows 10.

If SteamOS takes off, it's a win-win for the consumer.

Tldr; don't rule out Linux and SteamOS yet,but Windows does have its merrits.

Just my two cents.

 

[Ceadeus]

Here's what Quo Vadis means for me!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTHFzjoOu84

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Yes, their GFWL efforts have been tremendous. And their plans for the original Xbox One DRM showed how much they cared about gaming, too.

I'm starting to see how you gathered such a reputation.

While those efforts where bad, and you tried hard to pick the worst examples and ommitted Microsoft's succesful contributions to PC gaming, they show at least that they tried. That's more you can say about Linux devs.

To quote the review: It's easy to set up, easy to use, extremely reliable and practically idiot-proof.

There isn't much more comfort in the world than that. Reliability and set-up ease has nothing to do with the GUI, either.

Comfort and convenience also means, for example, that you can have a similar experience regardless if you have a AMD or nvidia GPU in your PC. It also means you can choose games from your existing library of games and just play them. Or that you are being able to play a popular new game on day one without having to tinker with stupid crap, or wait for months/years.

So if 'easy', 'reliable', 'simple' don't qualify as convenient, what does?

That's not what I said. I said that this only describes the setup process. This does, for example, not include daily usage compared to Windows gaming.

 

[Moosichu]

I doubt that. And what is your point even? There are completely different requirements compared to gaming.


They run Android. This isn't just Linux.

Point is Linux isn't just some kernel bedroom hackers tinker with, it's a solid tried and tested piece of software. Also yes, Linux powers most of the internet. Google for a start, Amazon, PSN, probably even GAF.

And Android does run on the Linux Kernel, it's as much Linux as a GNU/Linux desktop is.

 

[gamz]

Point is Linux isn't just some hackers tinkering kernel, it's a solid tried and tested piece of software. Also yes, Linux powers most of the internet. Google for a start, Amazon, PSN, probably even GAF.

And Android does run on the Linux Kernel, it's as much Linux as a GNU/Linux desktop is.

True.

 

[Tealmann]

To clarify, this thread is meant to focus on the SteamOS-factor rather than Vulkan itself - that's what the Vulkan thread is for.

You really shouldn't have added "VS Windows 10"
You can see how that might confuse some people

 

[Glasshole]

It surely seems so. Linux is a mess because every distro wants to do their own thing, and has it's own quirks. This makes development for consumer software, which needs to be polished and easy to use, difficult.

Even if this were true, you could focus on Mint, Ubuntu, Debian and Fedora.

I doubt that. And what is your point even? There are completely different requirements compared to gaming.

Check this

No. Just no.

Actually, yes

They run Android. This isn't just Linux.

Android runs on the Linux-Kernel. How much more Linux do you want it to be? I'm questioning your "sysadmin" background.

Well, I am working in a sysadmin environment where we use RHEL and Debian Linux servers, so yes, I have used Linux at times. Lol.

I honestly doubt that

Technically I did say "best", not "popular". Which, technically, is not the same.

You still failed to define "best".

Most of those points are well known. It's just that some people get angry if you describe to them how the world is, instead how they want the world to be. And I did refer to SteamOS in my post. I don't see it having any relevance in the future.

You didn't describe how the world is, you described it how you thought it would be/hoped it would be.

Being a bit condescending (which is also subjective imo) is at least better than being outright insulting.

Klugscheisser isn't an insult, it's an accusation. For any non-german speakers, it means smartass. And would you look at the condescending guy feeling insulted. I have a hard time feeling sympathy for you.

You have literally asked what the future of SteamOS vs Windows is. I said that I think Windows is superior, and that SteamOS won't be relevant in the future, including my reasons for this stance.

Backed by no meaningful or coherent reason whatsoever. Your best shot was "DX12 is lightyears ahead" based on tales from... your ass?

While those efforts where bad, and you tried hard to pick the worst examples and ommitted Microsoft's succesful contributions to PC gaming, they show at least that they tried. That's more you can say about Linux devs.

I tried hard? I can go all day. MS bought Bungie for the sole purpose to put Halo behind a proprietary console paywall. Shall I continue? There's no "hard picking" for this - MS fucked up a gazillion times when it came to PC gaming. Why do you think was there a vacuum for Steam to enter in the first place?

Comfort and convenience also means, for example, that you can have a similar experience regardless if you have a AMD or nvidia GPU in your PC. It also means you can choose games from your existing library of games and just play them. Or that you are being able to play a popular new game on day one without having to tinker with stupid crap, or wait for months/years.

Again, this is based on nothing, especially the latter part.

That's not what I said. I said that this only describes the setup process. This does, for example, not include daily usage compared to Windows gaming.

I wrote my replies in bold directly in the quote for ease.

Now excuse me as I ignore your completely valueless opinion on the matter from here on out. You'll survive this little bit of condescending behaviour, right?

You really shouldn't have added "VS Windows 10"
You can see how that might confuse some people

This applies to people who have not read the OP. Also, literally every other factor comes BEFORE windows 10 in the title. It's the very last thing that's mentioned. The OP is 90% about Vulkan too - so the focus is hardly on Windows 10.