Support NeoGAF

[Tony HoTT]

What the hell are they gonna release on the GC untill next November? That's going to be so painful to watch.

 

[the androgyne]

wow - two of the best posts i've ever read, in one thread (a nintendo one of all places)
Props to drinky and Arsynic

I remember way back when, struggling to understand how EA could make madden et al 94/95 and have people just lap it up. At the end of the day they're just sports sims - they do one thing, play sports - yet they pack it in with realism, graphics, speech, tournies, create a player/play .. mere refinements and the like.. and people buy it year after year after year. It's up to .. i think (someone can correct) - its 15th version?

Some people even buy multiple games of the same sport per year from different companies! How much sports can you take? (this is another discussion
This is the most extreme example of stagnation in this industry.. but it isn't the only one.

I don't hate Mario Sunshine, Zelda WW or any of the other "disappointments" from Nintendo this gen, but you cannot deny they too are totally stale. For all the hub-bub over Zelda's look, the biggest problem which no-one noticed during the pre-release was that they're just recycling 'the zelda formula' A pre-set 'WAY' of making a zelda game a zelda game. The graphics was their way of making it 'appear' fresh (which backfired a bit). But it's just not enough, they can't just appear fresh, they have to be big, in people's faces fresh. I'm not saying revolution will guarantee this but it will certainly be a step in the right direction.

The highly praised DS games have been quality existing titles - and fresh new ideas - they can co-exist (to each to his own). Each of the big games utilizes one or more of the unique features of DS, and give new and equally satisfying experiences as past games can.

I liken it to a few of MY personal favourite games of the past - F-Zero X/GX and WaveRace 64. These games have faults - they can be improved - they could do with (even) more content, better graphics, better sound. But fuck me if they dont PLAY perfectly fine already. Would i buy a WaveRace 64 with SW2000 graphics? Hell yeah. Would i buy an F-Zero GX with even more characters and courses? Of course! But their time has gone! They've achieved something and it's time to move on, find something new. The best games of gaming-history can be refined to the fucking nth degree if you want. Will an F-Zero GX + 50 more courses + 50 more cars be worth that extra .3 in your IGN review? Or you can find something just as fun in a different way, that you've never experienced before?

 

[Xrenity]

Well we are only at the beginning of the generation. Their will likley be better physics to come in later in the next generation, though they are likely to be limited to a handful of games. The thing is can you sell physics as easily as you can sell shiny graphics.

Physics are already in Half-Life 2, and they're doing a good job.

Problem with destructible buildings is that the level design is of no use.

So what 360/PS3 would sell at is probably making every tiny piece of paper react to eachother. And cars will have to bump into other cars realistically, while the mirrors break off and fall on the ground as if it was in real-life. It's a nice feature -- but you won't even notice it even more after 2/3 days. And it costs an insane amount of time. I wonder if a lot of devs are going to do this.

However, Revolution being just a 'souped up xbox' seems kind of worrying. Wasn't Iwata telling us the graphics would make us say WOW and were comparable to 360 on a sdTV?

I just don't get it. Spending millions of dollars and time to just make a second gamecube, only a little faster? Of course, Xbox graphics are allright, and you won't notice the difference between Halo 2 and PD0 on a sdTV. But a next-gen console needs better graphics. If it was only for third party support.

I guess Matt is wrong, or Nintendo has something up its sleeve. I hope it's the last one.

/edit: oh, and by the way, what would you need 12gb for?

 

[Xellotah]

/edit: oh, and by the way, what would you need 12gb for?

So you can fill it with junk ... and stop the pirates using standard dvds to copy your games.

 

[User Tron]

What if the secret are 3d glasses? Wouldn't all things make more sense?

Size: As the you have to carry rev around it would have to be as light as possible. Could it be that the rev stand is a docking station for charging?
Power: Batteries are heavy, so power consumption must be kept on the low side (for size and duration). The flash ram could act as a cache to keep disk access at a minimum.
Resolution: The lcd screens would probably be 640x480, so no need for hdtv.
Speed: In Virtual Reality it is more important that head motion ist translated without latency and how things look. Thus connecting the classes directly to rev and no wifi or alike. If there's a lag you get headache within 30 min. Hollywood may be optimized to render two screens with slightly different viewpoints (eyes).

It would make sense not to show any screenshots because the can't capture the experience. Specs would really be not of much interest then, would they?

Just a thought.

 

[Any1]

Well the shift to PS2 from PS1 allowed it to be 3D which has different gameplay too. I don't think upping the poly count and texture resolutions on characters and cars and denser traffic is going to make a difference quite as substancial as that. Part of the argument is that gfx has reached sort of a saturation point with diminishing returns. That was certainly not even vaguely the case after the PSX (god was it ugly).

Dude, what are you talking about? The shift to 3D happened when we went from SNES to PS1. But you are correct in saying that GTA3's gameplay wasn't possible until the shift to PS2. And the reason for that is because the PS2 offered more horsepower, which was necessary for this type of game, than the 32 bit gen. Exactly the same way that the PS3 will offer more horsepower than the PS2. And new great and innovative games will come along that are only possible because of all the extra horsepower that this next gen. is going to bring.

And as far as game sales being only down 6% this year over last is more a testament to how well the game industry is doing rather than a symptom of its impending doom. I don't know if yall naysayers realize this or not but last year saw the release of more quality games than probably ever in the history of the games industry. Not only that but last year saw the release of more highly anticipated, blockbuster titles like Halo 2, Half-life 2, GTA: SA etc.. than the game industry has ever seen, (and unlike the crash of the 80's because of the likes of E.T. and Pacman, these games delivered the quality deserving of the hype they recieved). And when you add all that up with the fact that 2005 is the end of this gen., it's astonishing that sales have slipped as little as they did.

Last year was a freak accident as far as so many awesome blockbuster AAA games being released over just one year, that it was basically impossible for sales this year to surpass last years. Sorry, but that many blockbuster games are just not normally released every year if ever.

And please people, quit bringing up that diminishing returns crap. It's just not true and everyone knows it. Just one look at a first gen game like Gears of War proves this. GOW is as big a leap over Xbox games as PS2 games were over PS1 games. The only reason people are trying to push all this diminishing returns crap is to give Nintendo an excuse for the Revolution delivering graphics barely above what the Xbox1 currently offers. Also, if Nintendo truly believed that current graphics is all we need and want, then all they really need to do is just use all the parts from the Gamecube along with the features the Revolution will use to offer its back catalogue and sell that as it's next gen console.

 

[Shaheed79]

Physics are already in Half-Life 2, and they're doing a good job.

Problem with destructible buildings is that the level design is of no use.

Thats not true at all. It just forces developers to think more intelligently about level design when creating those destructible enviroments and how destructible to make them.

See this I believe will be the biggest obstacle for most next-gen developers to overcome. Next-gen games will have a very high level of graphical requirement. Then Developers will spend so much money, manpower and time developing their games up to visual specifications required by the publisher that by the time they get around to asking theirselves what gameplay innovations they can include in their game they are so mentally, physically and financially exhausted that they feel its just not worth the effort. They're probably asking themselves "How much of a difference will it really make in sales anyway?" when they already feel they did their best to copy the highest selling games best gameplay ideas anyway.

Very few publishers will be willing to back games like Psychonauts next gen because of the cost to develop a next-gen Psychonauts just wouldn't be financially feesible while maintaining a certain level of graphical quality.

 

[jett]

Holy crap this thread got huge. So, any suicides yet? Nboyz am cry?

 

[SolidSnakex]

Holy crap this thread got huge. So, any suicides yet? Nboyz am cry?

Nope, just more about how the industry is going to crash.

 

[Gahiggidy]

FYI Matt mentioned that he has some more details that he is saving for a later date.

Happy details?

 

[Gahiggidy]

Nope, just more about how the industry is going to crash.

By the way, what is your reaction to this news SolidSnakex? I'm curious to know what your thoughts are.

 

[radioheadrule83]

A few things that I've been thinking about today.

Xbox 1 was technically capable of outputting in 720p with certain software (legit and otherwise) - Revolution should be too surely, unless theres something to this secret...

Like OG gamer stated, all that really gets revealed in that article is a ballpark figure on the RAM. Developers are waiting to hear about the ATI GPU before they will have an idea about what it will do. The IGN article actually says this

Now consider the 'souped up Xbox' statement. How can they know that before they know what the GPU is capable of? Is is not possible as OG gamer suggested that this presupposition is based purely off the ballpark RAM figure? Or some kind of CPU estimate? Either way, its clear even devs themselves aren't 100% sure what it will output to TVs.

The "d00m3d" discussion has been had so many times, but it is an interesting debate, I might come back to it when I've had something to eat...

 

[Mama Smurf]

This is generally a pretty good thread, I'm enjoying it.

Of course, I wouldn;t be discussing any of this stuff if we'd seen games, I'm not a tech guy, but I do understand Nintendo's reasons for not showing anything yet.

I just thought, this makes me more hopeful for the next Smash Bros. HAL have given them the code of Melee and, along with this news and the development environment being so similar to GC's, they really should just be able to use an enhanced engine. Seems to me there'd be much less they can fuck up than if they started it from scratch. Might even mean they can get it out close to launch, I'm not sure.

 

[Xrenity]

Thats not true at all. It just forces developers to think more intelligently about level design when creating those destructible enviroments and how destructible to make them.

If the buildings aren't fully destructible, the physics might look weird. And what happens to a second floor? It just collapses and you won't have to explore that part of the map.

Well, that is of course when you have some heavy explosives with you Most games wouldn't even take use of it, I guess. So that would leave garbage cans and cars open for destruction. And that's pretty much what we already have.

And thereby, it would require A LOT of work (I guess) to make a garbage can respond as real as possible (with garbage, which shouldn't clip with eachother, in it). Don't even mention cars.

I think you're right, not many developers will get this in a game. They're too busy with lighting effects anyway

This is generally a pretty good thread, I'm enjoying it.

True I always like reading threads like these at GAF.

 

[dkeane]

Sorry if this has been posted, I went to sleep and missed the middle pages of this thread.

http://revolution.ign.com/articles/670/670579p1.html

Found this interesting -

Although Nintendo has downplayed the raw processing power of Revolution, saying that it has designed the console to be small, quiet and affordable, Retro seems confident that it will be able to take the franchise to new visual heights. "The 'engine' [we developed] underwent drastic improvements between Metroid Prime 1 and 2, and will see even more between 2 and 3," the company stated. "Our engineers are a very talented and dedicated bunch, and they're constantly looking for ways to make our games run smoother with more detail."

The game will be enhanced by way of Nintendo's new controller for Revolution. "We plan on taking advantage of a number of new features in the Revolution, including the controller," the developer said.

 

[[Nintex]]

thanksgiving it is...

Before the Rev hits... damn.. how many people dumped there Gamecube and bought a Xbox 360? Having to consoles this gen was affordable :
$100 Gamecube
$200 Xbox

Having to consoles next gen..
$199 Revolution
$400 Xbox360

People only buy one console at launch.

 

[Dinosaur Sr.]

I expect a lot of people eating crow come E3, or whenever Nintendo shows off their games. :lol

And wow to all the people predicting doom for Revolution, did DS not teach you guys anything?

Nintendo's doing fine in the handheld market, they always have. In console-land, though? Looks like their death spiral will continue.

 

[capslock]

A few things that I've been thinking about today.

Xbox 1 was technically capable of outputting in 720p with certain software (legit and otherwise) - Revolution should be too surely, unless theres something to this secret...

Like OG gamer stated, all that really gets revealed in that article is a ballpark figure on the RAM. Developers are waiting to hear about the ATI GPU before they will have an idea about what it will do. The IGN article actually says this

Now consider the 'souped up Xbox' statement. How can they know that before they know what the GPU is capable of? Is is not possible as OG gamer suggested that this presupposition is based purely off the ballpark RAM figure? Or some kind of CPU estimate? Either way, its clear even devs themselves aren't 100% sure what it will output to TVs.

The "d00m3d" discussion has been had so many times, but it is an interesting debate, I might come back to it when I've had something to eat...

I think way more has been made of this piece of news that essentially states nothing new (other than some speculation on part of people possessing alpha kits) compared to the previous rumours. It's always best to wait until official specs are released (even though Nintendo themselves claim they'll never do this). A lot of silliness goes on before final hardware, remember the now legendary "GameCube next generation? Try New Generation!" thread by Fran Mirabella of IGN? Or how about the claims that XBox would be doing the Raven demo in realtime? Neither came close to the truth. It's quite possible that these developers are indeed right, but let's just wait to hear it fom the horse's mouth.

 

[yoopoo]

Nintendo's doing fine in the handheld market, they always have. In console-land, though? Looks like their death spiral will continue.

Yep.

Though Nintendo was suppose to die in handheld area too cause the DS wasn't as powerful as the PSP and it wasn't a traditional device.

Well we, I mean you, can only hope.

 

[AndoCalrissian]

thanksgiving it is...

Before the Rev hits... damn.. how many people dumped there Gamecube and bought a Xbox 360? Having to consoles this gen was affordable :
$100 Gamecube
$200 Xbox

Having to consoles next gen..
$199 Revolution
$400 Xbox360

People only buy one console at launch.

Right, but I think what we're going to see is people more reticent to buy three consoles or the two more expensive ones. Of course, that depends on what PS3 launches at. If Revolution is half the cost and offers a new experience, it might see a huge boost as a secondary console.

 

[[Nintex]]

I just dont understand there strategy.
Every generation they are the cheapest and the most innovative.
However since the SNES they are losing market share. Some people say they have changed.. well they haven't changed one bit. Making the same stupid mistakes gen after gen... , Gamecube=N64 the line up is just horrible at the moment. And if they do the same with the revolution , that will be my last Nintendo console.

 

[Dinosaur Sr.]

Yep.

Though Nintendo was suppose to die in handheld area too cause the DS wasn't as powerful as the PSP and it wasn't a traditional device.

Well we, I mean you, can only hope.

People really thought Nintendo was going to die in the handheld arena? I thought that the PSP would outsell the DS (still do, but it's about the power and versatility of the PSP, not because of the DS being non-traditional), but there are just so many games for the GBA and DS that Nintendo will continue to rack up sales.

Problem for them is that they finally have to compete in the handheld market, so the money's not gonna come as cheaply as it used to. So they're tighter with their money. Consequently, after the GameCube's failure, they're not as willing to throw money at its successor to try to win back the console market. So we get the Rev. Meh.

 

[Crazy Harry]

you can't escape the fact videogames are still a visual medium, so im disappointed
[/2 cents]

No, it's not a visual medium. It's an interactive medium.
There are games in existence without any visuals, and yes they are fun to play.
Only because the majority of game professionals (most game designers excluded) are very close minded about visuals in games, the games phenomenon manifests itself as a visual medium. But at the core, it has nothing to do with visuals at all.

 

[marc^o^]

Nintendo's doing fine in the handheld market, they always have. In console-land, though? Looks like their death spiral will continue.

1) Nintendo gamers will buy the Revolution.

2) Casual gamers will love these funny games they saw on TV with the revmote, which seem cool and easy to play. Oh and it's cheap too. They'll buy Revolution.

3) Non gamers who bought Nintendogs or Brain Training games will likely make the jump on Revolution when Nintendo releases such franchises on it. Nintendo is the only actor adressing this huge market.

4) Many PS3 and x360 owners will pick the cheap Revolution as a second console. It will be so different from what they get on their favorite system that it'll be worth it.

You lack vision if you don't see that coming. With Revolution, Nintendo just got out of this death spiral you mentioned.

 

[D3VI0US]

Most games can benefit from better hardware, Nintendo questions the worth of graphics and horsepower, I question the worth of the Revmote.

 

[Gaia Theory]

I just dont understand there strategy.
Every generation they are the cheapest and the most innovative.
However since the SNES they are losing market share. Some people say they have changed.. well they haven't changed one bit. Making the same stupid mistakes gen after gen... , Gamecube=N64 the line up is just horrible at the moment. And if they do the same with the revolution , that will be my last Nintendo console.

This is the key.

The Revolution absolutely cannot depend on Nintendo's key franchises (Game Giants, as Nintendo likes to call them) the way that Nintendo relied on them for Gamecube.

Looking back at old Nintendo Power magazines, there have actually been instances when the game lineup between the N64s past versus the Gamecube lineup of the present has almost matched each other identically.

The holiday season that saw Paper Mario 2 for Gamecube and others, looked a lot similar in terms of game lineup to the holiday season that saw Paper Mario for N64.

Nintendo MUST leverage their game history to help usher in a new era of popular IPs. They have been promising new IP for some time... so let's hope they finally capitalize on that promise.

 

[vitaflo]

Once again, I think next gen will turn out to be alot about physics which will add a big jump over current games once developers really start digging into it. Just look at the Motorstorm demo for example.

The only problem is that better physics only sells games to uber dorks. The general public could honestly care less. The public can distinguish better visuals, but like hell any of them will even notice the physics improvement. It's not a selling point.

 

[Skullkid]

:/

I hope that all these rumors and "insider info" have set the bar so low that we will be pleasantly surprised when we finally get to see the final specs.

 

[monkeyrun]

Most games can benefit from better hardware, Nintendo questions the worth of graphics and horsepower, I question the worth of the Revmote.

frankly after so many generations, with so many advancements in technology, the best game every created is a SNES game called SMB3, go figure.

 

[methodman]

Most games can benefit from better hardware, Nintendo questions the worth of graphics and horsepower, I question the worth of the Revmote.

You can question the worth of the Revmote however you'd like, but until you try it, it's Fucking Pointless. How much will this remote be able to change FPS's compared to an Dual-Stick setup? How much will it change Platformers? How much will it change Adventure games, Action Games, RPGs, Strategy games blah blah blah

We Don't Know, so you can't "Question" the worth of the product until you see how it is actually used.

 

[RonaldoSan]

So spending a couple of hundred millions in 2005 will give you system that is slightly more capable than a five year old system. And this five year old system consists of a 733MHZ CPU, a Geforce 3 GPU and 64MB of RAM.

Interesting.

 

[MadOdorMachine]

What if the secret are 3d glasses? Wouldn't all things make more sense?

I can't believe no one will talk about 3D. It seems as obvious to me as the controller using gyroscopes. It was accepted as fact, we just didn't know how Nintendo would implement it or what the controller would look like. I feel the same way about 3D. How can it not support 3D? In fact, I think Revolution will fail if it doesn't have true 3D. The controller alone is not enough to get people to buy it. We want to see graphics. What better way to differentiate themselves and draw in customers than to do this? Think about the nontraditional games Nintendo has been making lately like Nintendogs and the Brain Training games. Their goal is to draw in a different crowd; people who don't play traditional games. Now think about the video we've seen of Revolution. Think about all the actions the player is making in nontraditional games. Wouldn't most of those work better if it was in 3D? I think the drumming, cooking and surgery ones would in particular.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Ok...I promised myself but...

H.O.L.O.G.R.A.M.S









in all seriousness.....theres something more to the Rev....

 

[[Nintex]]

This is the key.

The Revolution absolutely cannot depend on Nintendo's key franchises (Game Giants, as Nintendo likes to call them) the way that Nintendo relied on them for Gamecube.

Looking back at old Nintendo Power magazines, there have actually been instances when the game lineup between the N64s past versus the Gamecube lineup of the present has almost matched each other identically.

The holiday season that saw Paper Mario 2 for Gamecube and others, looked a lot similar in terms of game lineup to the holiday season that saw Paper Mario for N64.

Nintendo MUST leverage their game history to help usher in a new era of popular IPs. They have been promising new IP for some time... so let's hope they finally capitalize on that promise.

Excactly : Look at the Gamecube latest games, we all know its going to be Kirby...
What was one of Nintendo's last N64 game's... whatdoyaknow.. its Kirby!
Nintendo's Gamecube support is lacking, hell when they dont make games for it why would third party's do .. they just cant get any profit out of it....
So when Nintendo shows Revolution, Dev's wont be excited to develop for the platform knowing that the Nintendo fan crowd only buys Nintendo games , and skip decent and cool third party titles. However the casual gamer who bought Gamecube for lets say Resident evil will be screwed by half assed EA port. Thus not bying anything for the NGC, EA wont dont any better: It just wont sell on Rev or Gamecube. Nintendo needs to break this cycle.
Nintendogs is a step in the right direction , however yet again in the handheld market.

Also they put a lot of time and effort in games that never get out of the door.
N64 DD polygon studios and all that..
Starfox 2 : finished never released
Kirby bowl something = Kirby air ride after 8 or 9 years! Heck they showed it during N64 unveiling...
If Nintendo released every game they create... well i think it will double the Gamecube line-up. For all we know they already have Pikmin 3 but not released for some reason.

 

[AndoCalrissian]

frankly after so many generations, with so many advancements in technology, the best game every created is a SNES game called SMB3, go figure.

Super Mario Bros. 3 came out on the NES.

 

[Bluemercury]

FYI Matt mentioned that he has some more details that he is saving for a later date.

later date???he says today at night...

 

[monkeyrun]

Super Mario Bros. 3 came out on the NES.

shoot .. my fault. I forgot for some reason I never really got the SNES.

 

[mckmas8808]

The only problem is that better physics only sells games to uber dorks. The general public could honestly care less. The public can distinguish better visuals, but like hell any of them will even notice the physics improvement. It's not a selling point.

Motorstorm says HI!!

 

[[Nintex]]

later date???he says today at night...

I dont believe in his bullshit...

 

[mckmas8808]

later date???he says today at night...

Did he really say tonight?

 

[P90]

You all know these questions, but it helps to breifly look at it again to understand why Nintendo is going for the cheap, less powerful system. Takes these questions from the perpective of an avg consumers point of view.

1) Is 5.1 Dolby Digital setup worth $500 or more to your living room? Radios and TV stations are Stereo for the most part.

2) Is the current cost of an HDTV worth $1000 or more to your living room? Especially since there are only a handful of HD boardcasting stations and DVD are still 480p. Majority of the market will not own HD until the end of the next generation life cycle.

3) Is a Xbox360 or PS3 worth $400 - $500, especially if you don't have 5.1 or HDTV to take full advantage of it?

Now, what if you can give these consumers a system that is built for people who don't want to pay extra for all the HD/5.1 setup. I hope you guys start to see that Nintendo is not doomed, but they have a good idea if they can release the system for $149 - $199.

Sure, we want HD, the Best Graphics, the best controller, the best franchise, the best sound, but do we want to pay the highest price for all of them? Only the Hardcore will go for it.

Right. I am an avid game, but I am not going to shell out the cash to be a "HD gamer". I have said this before and I'll say it again, make gaming affordable or I'll find another form of entertainment.

 

[DrGAKMAN]

Shogmaster posted his motherboard layout, so I drew up a quick rough sketch of how I think it'll be laid out. Any comments?

Some things to mention...if Nintendo is going with only 128MB of main RAM I think it should all be 1T-SRAM so that it's at least fast. I split them up into 32MB chunks so as to dissipate heat 'cos memory get's hot too.

Ya know...looking at this, I think there may even be room for a laptop-sized battery to slide into the bottom side (next to or in place of the front end connection (which at second glance really wouldn't be needed) under the disc drive). I mean if Nintendo is going for a lower powered "GAMECUBE TURBO" why not make it portable too? This could be the "surpise" and would make sense with odd comments about the display and other comments (from SquareENIX's Wada) about it transending portables & consoles. Nintendo *was* working on a beautiful GCN LCD at one time.

I think making Revolution a psuedo-console/portable would be awesome. Easier LAN gaming, it doubles as a portable DVD player and it would be more powerful than the PSP for those who want an alternative. By using the built-in flash and/or playing games from SD cards that cuts down on drive access making the system more suitable for portable play as well.

 

[D3VI0US]

You can question the worth of the Revmote however you'd like, but until you try it, it's Fucking Pointless. How much will this remote be able to change FPS's compared to an Dual-Stick setup? How much will it change Platformers? How much will it change Adventure games, Action Games, RPGs, Strategy games blah blah blah

We Don't Know, so you can't "Question" the worth of the product until you see how it is actually used.

Games are only as good as the capability of the devs who make them, as far as I'm concerned well designed games coming from Nintendo are a rarity these days. I don't see how the Revmote will change their inability to make a substantial amount of games I care about. Not to mention all of these moves could pay off big or further alienate the 3rd party community, I mean most pubs and devs don't really know who the target market for this thing will be anyways other than the existing GC market which they don't give a shit about anyways. It seems like shifting focus to the controller and making that work is a big challenge and can and often will result in gimmicky crap rather than good solid design which is much more important to everyone but Nintendo these days.

 

[GitarooMan]

Right. I am an avid game, but I am not going to shell out the cash to be a "HD gamer". I have said this before and I'll say it again, make gaming affordable or I'll find another form of entertainment.

Yeah, but that depends on what you mean by affordable. Given the rising average age of gamers, I think in the future the people who have games as a hobby will be willing to spend higher amounts of money to play games. I'm not sure that many people who bought a 360 for 400 dollars thought it wasn't "affordable". I mean, being a 20 or 30 something gamer with a decent job like many gamers are nowadays, 400 dollars for a system that will last 4-6 years is not a huge investment. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Shaheed79]

Most games can benefit from better hardware, Nintendo questions the worth of graphics and horsepower, I question the worth of the Revmote.

Yeah but at some point that worth will become less and less significant generation to generation. Graphically there will always be a better benefit but like I pointed out publishers can't afford to make all their games look like they are cutting edge. Power will have less and less to do with advancing gameplay and I'm struggling to see what 360 games can't be efficiently developed for the Xbox. Hundreds of characters on screen at a decent framerate is the only real benefit I see so far and that might not even be next-gen exclusive.

Of course I will wait until I see games make more efficient use of the 360 hardware before I make a final judgement. If games like Heavenly Sword and Killzone are the real deal with that level of animation, AI, graphics, destructible enviroments and number of enemies on screen at once then I will be the first in line. And if the majority of PS3 developers can utilize that level of power relatively cheap and easily then Nintendo is indeed screwed if Rev is only Xbox 1.4 because that is a huge leap. But as of right now nothing on the 360 has me thinking the Rev will look like the 3D0 in comparison.

 

[P90]

Yeah, but that depends on what you mean by affordable. Given the rising average age of gamers, I think in the future the people who have games as a hobby will be willing to spend higher amounts of money to play games. I'm not sure that many people who bought a 360 for 400 dollars thought it wasn't "affordable". I mean, being a 20 or 30 something gamer with a decent job like many gamers are nowadays, 400 dollars for a system that will last 4-6 years is not a huge investment. Just my 2 cents.

You miss my point, it isn't just the console, though $400 for an operative unit is high for anybody that is not a high school or college kid living off their parents. It is the whole shabang: upgrade stereo and speakers, upgrade to $1500 TV, monster cables, price increase on games, the price of controllers, the list goes on. The JesusFactor listed it. I agree with him. You don't think the cost of the other requirements of "HD gaming" is not prohibitive for anybody with other responsibilities like mortgage, car insurance, day care, etc.?

 

[D3VI0US]

Yeah but at some point that worth will become less and less significant generation to generation. Graphically there will always be a better benefit but like I pointed out publishers can't afford to make all their games look like they are cutting edge. Power will have less and less to do with advancing gameplay and I'm struggling to see what 360 games can't be efficiently developed for the Xbox. Hundreds of characters on screen at a decent framerate is the only real benefit I see so far and that might not even be next-gen exclusive.

Of course I will wait until I see games make more efficient use of the 360 hardware before I make a final judgement. If games like Heavenly Sword and Killzone are the real deal with that level of animation, AI, graphics, destructible enviroments and number of enemies on screen at once then I will be the first in line. And if the majority of PS3 developers can utilize that level of power relatively cheap and easily then Nintendo is indeed screwed if Rev is only Xbox 1.4 because that is a huge leap. But as of right now nothing on the 360 has me thinking the Rev will look like the 3D0 in comparison.

I see diminishing returns as far as visuals go, but horsepower translates to a lot more things than graphics, even something as simple as having the horsepower to run a game co-op with a steady framerate, skeletal animation with inverse kinematics, destructible environemnts, learning AI like genetic algorithms, shaders and particle effects, etc have a lot to do with specs. So while the power argument is valid with first gen comparisons on quick and dirty ports an rushed buggy launch titles the hardware will distinguish itself as devs get a handle on it and the potential is much greater. Power is still very much a critical factor in the experiences that can be provided, that is a fact. Granted it doesn't make the games good but it does make good games better, there's no denying the benefits are very practical.

 

[hadareud]

edit: sorry, double post

 

[Dinosaur Sr.]

You miss my point, it isn't just the console, though $400 for an operative unit is high for anybody that is not a high school or college kid living off their parents. It is the whole shabang: upgrade stereo and speakers, upgrade to $1500 TV, monster cables, price increase on games, the price of controllers, the list goes on. The JesusFactor listed it. I agree with him. You don't think the cost of the other requirements of "HD gaming" is not prohibitive for anybody with other responsibilities like mortgage, car insurance, day care, etc.?

Some of you guys act like nobody owns these things. Have you seen how sales of HDTVs are taking off? People aren't buying them so they get the best experience with their gaming console, they're getting them because they're fucking awesome and prices are nice. The fact that some newer consoles can take advantage of them is excellent icing on the cake and good incentive to get those consoles.

If someone isn't planning on getting an HDTV in the next 5 years, they probably either aren't into gaming period, or just stick to handhelds at the most. If anything, they deserve to get stuck with a remote control-based "videogame" system.

 

[hadareud]

750 posts about something that was very clear when they showed the design back at E3, you just can't pack poweful chips like cell/xenon, rsx/xenos into such a small machine.

I mean, do people think that MS and Sony did not pay anything for R & D, and that there is no reason whatsoever that their consoles are big(ger)? For some reason some think Nintendo just found a magic cooling solution for next to no money.

Do I care that it won't be able to keep up with the 360 and the PS3 in power? Not at all. I don't need Unreal 3 engine games or whatever on the Revolution, it will be great for what it is. And it is no PS3 or 360, cool, I'll get those anyway and the Rev will be plenty powerful nontheless.

Revolution ftw