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Rock, Paper Shotgun will no longer cover PAX...
- Thread starter Cosmonaut X
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He is pretty abhorrent. He has a mental illness, so do I, so what? Does that give me a free pass to say hateful, stupid shit?
Things add up. Mike's proven time and time again that he is incapable of feeling empathy toward others unless forced to and will, instead of rationally discussing something, escalate the shitflinging. He's smart, and kind at times, but his pattern of behavior has convinced me that there will not be any changing and he will continue to make these mistakes into the future. Thus, I describe him as an abhorrent human being. One who is morally bad. And I will not associate with him based on that not lining up with my personal principles.
Your piece seems to be coming from poor comprehension of the article - and judging by your defense of Mike it seems your interest in PA may be slightly more than passing.
They're within their rights not to report on PAX - and they're telling their readers why they won't be from now on. Sorted.
IdreamofHIME
Member
The original Dickwolves cartoon wasn't that offensive imo, but their reaction to the criticism was pretty amateurish and really rubbed me the wrong way.
You got stay classy, don't let yourself get dragged into the gutter for a fight...and the PA guys managed to go even deeper than the gutter.
You got stay classy, don't let yourself get dragged into the gutter for a fight...and the PA guys managed to go even deeper than the gutter.
RedNumberFive
Banned
Seconded.
Chairmanchuck
Member
Thanks for this post. I respect trans-gendered persons and I also know at least one for a longer time, but he is german and he was supported by a lot of people here.
And its true. Im not a transgendered-person so I dont really understand how they feel and since here in Germany at least transgendered people are generally accepted and can live a totally normal life according to my experiences.
So thanks for clarifying.
I never said I did. Thats why i am grateful for aeolists post.
I can, though, still state my opinion.
The comic used to be funny 6 years ago.
The thing that makes this worse is that while I don't understand the appeal of PA (they've never been particularly funny to me) I do understand the appeal of PAX and the idea of why it started. It's unfortunate that one of the people behind it is Mike, it really is.
RPS is two things at once:
1) Genuinely insightful critique of video games that can broaden your appreciation for the medium
2) Annoying, aggressive and humorless up-their-own-asstivists.
Their approach on both ends is devoid of subtlety, but I can at least appreciate something that's unsubtle when it isn't politicized. When they get on their soapbox, I just roll my eyes and ignore their existence for a while.
1) Genuinely insightful critique of video games that can broaden your appreciation for the medium
2) Annoying, aggressive and humorless up-their-own-asstivists.
Their approach on both ends is devoid of subtlety, but I can at least appreciate something that's unsubtle when it isn't politicized. When they get on their soapbox, I just roll my eyes and ignore their existence for a while.
Great post.
If Mike is guilty of anything, it's of being ignorant and outspoken on a subject, not being a discriminatory hatemonger. He's come around on many different subjects through exposure to them, the people affected by them, and rational discussion.
He also responds poorly to what he perceives to be personal attacks online, and is way too defensive and trollish for his position as half the face of Penny Arcade.
He's not a Bad Person. He doesn't rally people in hate against any other groups of people. The entire debate from the Dickwolves to now has been stupid and grossly mishandled on both sides.
I agree that boycotting PAX is not the answer. Education and awareness is the way to go. shidoshi has participated in panels at PAX for at least a couple of years now specifically on one of the subjects Mike is in trouble over right now, without impediment.
bishopcruz
Member
What actions? Outside of the comment about gender and confusion, specifically what has PAX or those who run it done that is threatening? There are heaps of generalizations in this thread about how evil and nasty PAX and the PA guys are and practically no specifics to back it up. They just are, it is known.
And if panels and actively trying to be more inclusive isn't enough, what would be? A public self flaggelation in front of the entire crowd while chanting "mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa?" gaming itself is diverse, that people go to PAX who act differently, and see things differently than you do should be no surprise. Differing viewpoints are not threatening, people actually making threats are, and I have asked for instances of this and have yet to get a response. I mean, are attendees being assholes and getting away with it, are women swarmed upon by unwashed masses? What exactly is threatening about the PA guys and PAX? And is it really so bad that segregation is necessary?
People became more accepting of homosexuality as more and more LGBT individuals came out, and were open about their lifestyle and interacted with straights who were also just living their lives, it took decades. Changes in the gaming community likewise aren't going to happen overnight, but running away isn't going to do a goddamned thing.
What is this I don't even ... ever heard of sex change operations? In EU it is normal that if you really feel you are a woman deep inside you GET A VAGINA to go with that feeling.
Nobody denies you anything, in most EU countries sex-change operations are covered by national health insurance, for heaven's sake. Go and get it done and don't whine about your hard life when my taxes pay for your mental and physical wellbeing while there are people in other, less-developed and certainly less-accommodating parts of the world, with real problems.
Mike disassociating himself from anything involved in PAX.
Ever hear of money? Most people need it in the US to get surgeries. Are those people to be dismissed for not being rich enough or living in the wrong part of the world? Is it not a real problem?
3) limp post-izzard british TF2 server humour. oh, crumble!
as a news aggregate, they are an essential source. but they are also as predictable as they are monotone, with exception of rab's pieces which stand out like a slice of raw steak in a bowl of sickly potato soup.
oh, and i like when rossignol goes deep in to mechanics, and tim stone for doing his grognard thing.
basically, whenever they deviate from their standard voice.
Boycots are so childish. If I where a regular visitor of RPS, I would like them to cover PAX. I indirectly pay them with my hits to cover the subjects their readers like them to cover. Boycotting because of their own subjective opinion is pretty unprofessional, and unfair to their readers who want to read PAX news on RPS. Who cares what the opinions are of the PAX crew, respect your readers and let them decide what to read and what to ignore. Just cover the show and be objective about it. To often do these "journalist" hold their own petty agendas, and try to decide what their readers should read or what not. Thats why I love gaf, al the BS is filtered out!
You have a severe empathy deficiency.
For what it's worth, not all transpeople identify as either male or female as they don't feel that either fully fits. So that's just one reason why what you said was overly simplistic.
bishopcruz
Member
Well, we're done here.
On my long mental list of 'People who make me terrified to leave the house as my identified gender', two shmucks and their boat of ignorance about Trans issues is closer to the bottom. I have far more concerns about those who are actively malicious against Trans people.
The ignorant can be reasoned with, the malicious can not.
The ignorant can be reasoned with, the malicious can not.
first of all, the eu is not the entire world. in lots of countries gender reassignment surgery is either not an option, prohibitively expensive, and/or not covered by any available insurance.
second, there are transwomen who do not feel the need to have the surgery done. hormone replacement therapy is enough for a lot of them.
third, you are confusing biological sex with gender. you can be a man biologically but have a female gender identity and present yourself as such, and thus should be called a woman.
This is a political problem, not "one guy said women have vaginas" problem. It's time the US actually started to act like the greatest country in the world. Until then, please feel free to go to Canada, which also has national health care coverage like any self-respecting first world country!
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
That would kill PAX. and Penny Arcade, at least as how is today. With that in mind, I'm sure you realize that not everybody will be happy because of that.
Good move by RPS. There is something to be said for going and trying to bring awareness from within, but a boycott can do more to bring attention to the issues, as evidenced by this thread.
The PA guys have done some good in the industry, but if they really care about PAX and Child's Play they'll step aside and allow less ignorant people to run them from now on. I just can't see in the long run how they can continue to write comics that attack and alienate certain groups of gamers and then pretend they are welcome at public events. These things have been at odds with each other for awhile.
The PA guys have done some good in the industry, but if they really care about PAX and Child's Play they'll step aside and allow less ignorant people to run them from now on. I just can't see in the long run how they can continue to write comics that attack and alienate certain groups of gamers and then pretend they are welcome at public events. These things have been at odds with each other for awhile.
LOL, great solution. Try again.
Genuine question, how do they deal with that ? I can understand a transgendered person feeling they are the wrong sex but if someone feels like neither sex what on earth do they do ? That sounds absolutely horrible for the person emotionally and mentally.
I was going to point out that this is a sort of "safe" way to boycott a yearly event. Wait a couple weeks after it's over, make a big show of saying "WE'RE NOT GOING" and then you're basically giving the organizers a year to do anything about it, at which point you then get to go "well they changed their tune thanks to our whatever" and go to the next one, trumpeting victory.
SousedLouse
Member
Well, I already decided to stop reading from their site when they jumped on the DmC hair color bandwagon, so I guess I can't put a smile on Walker's face today. But I'm glad he's become comfortable enough with his "all my detractors are sub-human filth" routine to take it to Twitter - it's always good to see a writer widen their appeal.
IncandescentPrecept
Banned
I think it launched a few months ago.
i think it's because the last straw for a lot of people was the mike/jerry/khoo panel that happened at pax prime itself
CambriaRising
Member
It sounds like they will hurt their fans more than the PA guys.
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but they seem like the PewDiePie of gaming sites.
Broad appeal, little substance. And there seems to be a controversy every now and then involving rape jokes.
Like John Walker said, it's not the joke that's the problem so much as it is their response to the criticism.
Chairmanchuck
Member
But how would you differentiate between a transgendered person on the street and just someone who likes to dress like that or talk like a woman?
I am at CSD every year in cologne and you see a lot of men, who would fit the latter description.
I am just curious. For someone like me it would be hard to differntiate between them and would, unknowingly, hurt someone if I call them men.
You can
IMO, Its one thing to just make an offensive joke or an ignorant statement, we've all done that. Its another thing to be told that you are hurting people with that joke or statement and then doubling down on it. Or apologizing and then fucking up again in the exact same way. It either means you aren't taking the issue seriously enough, or you are standing by your initial stance. At that point people who disagree with that stance are probably gonna condemn and distance themselves from that person/organization.
I think PAX would be fine without Mike, but I see your concern.
Felix Lighter
Member
That may not be his intention but that is exactly what he ends up doing in some of these cases and that's why PAX ultimately gets wrapped up in the controversy. He has to be pretty damn oblivious to not see the little movements he inspires with some of his public comments. PA has a lot of fans that are ready to march whenever they feel their leaders are being disrespected. When he decides to highlight a group or individual that he's not happy with publicly, he has to be aware that he may be sicking his die hard fans on them.
So.
Honestly, it doesn't matter if we like or don't like RPS's decision on this one, if PAX doesn't fit in with their moral backbone, then not attending is a no brainer. Sticking up for your morals is an important thing, especially now when the fabric of traditional views relating towards gender issues and civil rights are unraveling in such away that exposes everyone to the intricacies of people's psyche.
Do I think it's a good idea? No. I think the idea of boycotting the second and third largest gaming events of the year that host the 3rd and 4th largest industry presence is incredibly damaging. Opting not to attend the few moments a year where, almost by obligation, everyone in the industry comes together to discuss games, their projects, and what they would like to see in the future is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Whether you like it or not, PAX and all it's incarnations have become important staples in the gaming industry. It's bigger than Mike or Jerry at this point, and in a lot of ways, not covering it is like making the active choice to only cover Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo and forget about everything else in the industry.
But, that being said, I understand why people don't want to support the antics of the site. I've been hearing "I don't understand how people can like that site, it's so deplorable, nothing good comes from it" and I feel like these people missed the boat. I don't read Penny Arcade every day anymore either, it's very much a once in a blue moon thing. But to denounce everything good that's come out of that site because of the actions of one person is foolhardy. How many millions of dollars to charity? How many developers found work because of the networking at PAX or PAXEast? It's a really special thing to have people from other countries be willing to fly across oceans to attend your event, and burning all that away because there's a man that you don't like who says things occasionally that you don't like makes no sense to me. Ignore that man. Ignore that man in the same way you would ignore a bigot shouting curses on the road. Ignore him, live your life, do your job, play until you are fulfilled.
Else...stay at home and scowl.
This situation reminds me of the Dragoncon problem that arose at the top of the year. For those who don't know, Dragoncon is the largest fandom convention on the east coast, and years ago, it was co-founded by a man named Edward Kramer. In 2000, Ed Kramer was arrested for mollesting 3 teenage boys, but due to a lack of evidence and general hersey, he could never be put in jail. He was reduced to what was essentially house arrest, which he constantly broke, and over the course of the past 13 years, was caught soliciting to underage boys from his house.
Now the problem is that even though Ed Kramer hasn't had anything to do with Dragoncon for 10 years, he still gets royalties from the con since it is for profit. People don't like supporting rapists and started pulling their support left and right. This is a far more deserving example of not wanting to support something that allows people who hurt others, PHYSICALLY HURT OTHERS to support themselves and their habits with relative ease. But what about everyone else on staff? No one wanted him there, and in order to force him out of Dragoncon's workings, it would have taken somewhere on the upwards of a few million to buy out his share and ensure that they he wouldn't make any money from the con ever again.
And this is the thing that I want people to understand because I'm not sure that people understand this is what they're calling for. When you say "I'm boycotting PAX because I don't like Mike Krahulik and what he stands for," You are calling for the people in that company to fire Mike Krahulik. You are asking those people to oust him from the company that he built, because it'll make you feel better. You are asking them to take away his livelihood. I just want to put that out there because saying, "Oh yeah, I would go if he wasn't there" is the exact same statement as "fire Mike Krahulik".
And in the Dragoncon case, that's exactly what they did. Earlier in the year, they bought out Kramer's stocks paid him a boatload of money and sent him on his way. The weight on conflicted shoulders was lifted and everyone could attend without worry that they were supporting bigotry.
So.
I respect RPS, and Wired, and HeyAsh, and the decision of anyone else who decides that they'd rather not attend PAX and it's affiliates because of the words actions of Mike Krahulik. They are sticking to their morals and that is something that should be respected. However, I do not find the antics of someone who is obviously confused about what gender issues really are to be the straw that breaks the back of a company that has done so much good. I don't think off color jokes that some people don't like are how we judge something that has brought some amazing people together. I think PAX should continue, and thrive, because it's impact on this industry, the people working within it, and the people attending for the love of it, is far more important than 1 man who draws a webcomic.
So I'll see you at PAXEast next year. Or maybe I won't. Regardless, badges should be up any day now.
Honestly, it doesn't matter if we like or don't like RPS's decision on this one, if PAX doesn't fit in with their moral backbone, then not attending is a no brainer. Sticking up for your morals is an important thing, especially now when the fabric of traditional views relating towards gender issues and civil rights are unraveling in such away that exposes everyone to the intricacies of people's psyche.
Do I think it's a good idea? No. I think the idea of boycotting the second and third largest gaming events of the year that host the 3rd and 4th largest industry presence is incredibly damaging. Opting not to attend the few moments a year where, almost by obligation, everyone in the industry comes together to discuss games, their projects, and what they would like to see in the future is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Whether you like it or not, PAX and all it's incarnations have become important staples in the gaming industry. It's bigger than Mike or Jerry at this point, and in a lot of ways, not covering it is like making the active choice to only cover Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo and forget about everything else in the industry.
But, that being said, I understand why people don't want to support the antics of the site. I've been hearing "I don't understand how people can like that site, it's so deplorable, nothing good comes from it" and I feel like these people missed the boat. I don't read Penny Arcade every day anymore either, it's very much a once in a blue moon thing. But to denounce everything good that's come out of that site because of the actions of one person is foolhardy. How many millions of dollars to charity? How many developers found work because of the networking at PAX or PAXEast? It's a really special thing to have people from other countries be willing to fly across oceans to attend your event, and burning all that away because there's a man that you don't like who says things occasionally that you don't like makes no sense to me. Ignore that man. Ignore that man in the same way you would ignore a bigot shouting curses on the road. Ignore him, live your life, do your job, play until you are fulfilled.
Else...stay at home and scowl.
This situation reminds me of the Dragoncon problem that arose at the top of the year. For those who don't know, Dragoncon is the largest fandom convention on the east coast, and years ago, it was co-founded by a man named Edward Kramer. In 2000, Ed Kramer was arrested for mollesting 3 teenage boys, but due to a lack of evidence and general hersey, he could never be put in jail. He was reduced to what was essentially house arrest, which he constantly broke, and over the course of the past 13 years, was caught soliciting to underage boys from his house.
Now the problem is that even though Ed Kramer hasn't had anything to do with Dragoncon for 10 years, he still gets royalties from the con since it is for profit. People don't like supporting rapists and started pulling their support left and right. This is a far more deserving example of not wanting to support something that allows people who hurt others, PHYSICALLY HURT OTHERS to support themselves and their habits with relative ease. But what about everyone else on staff? No one wanted him there, and in order to force him out of Dragoncon's workings, it would have taken somewhere on the upwards of a few million to buy out his share and ensure that they he wouldn't make any money from the con ever again.
And this is the thing that I want people to understand because I'm not sure that people understand this is what they're calling for. When you say "I'm boycotting PAX because I don't like Mike Krahulik and what he stands for," You are calling for the people in that company to fire Mike Krahulik. You are asking those people to oust him from the company that he built, because it'll make you feel better. You are asking them to take away his livelihood. I just want to put that out there because saying, "Oh yeah, I would go if he wasn't there" is the exact same statement as "fire Mike Krahulik".
And in the Dragoncon case, that's exactly what they did. Earlier in the year, they bought out Kramer's stocks paid him a boatload of money and sent him on his way. The weight on conflicted shoulders was lifted and everyone could attend without worry that they were supporting bigotry.
So.
I respect RPS, and Wired, and HeyAsh, and the decision of anyone else who decides that they'd rather not attend PAX and it's affiliates because of the words actions of Mike Krahulik. They are sticking to their morals and that is something that should be respected. However, I do not find the antics of someone who is obviously confused about what gender issues really are to be the straw that breaks the back of a company that has done so much good. I don't think off color jokes that some people don't like are how we judge something that has brought some amazing people together. I think PAX should continue, and thrive, because it's impact on this industry, the people working within it, and the people attending for the love of it, is far more important than 1 man who draws a webcomic.
So I'll see you at PAXEast next year. Or maybe I won't. Regardless, badges should be up any day now.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Welp. That sounds like a corporate and political take over.
the comic itself never caused a huge storm of outrage. it mainly came from one blog post, which spawned the awful strawmanning "apology" comic. that drew a lot more ire, but it still didn't get really bad until mike decided to go full asshole and print up the "team rapist" t-shirts and encourage people to wear them at a convention being billed as a safe space for marginalized groups.
That's a question I'm not qualified to answer but I imagine it's very difficult.
bishopcruz
Member
So what was the deal with this panel?
Yeah, ummm, no. If you're serious about being a woman, you go all the way. If you're not, you're actually not a woman trapped in a man's body. You're a dude playing with nail polish and hairdos. I don't feel I should be forced to tiptoe around my beliefs so you can do that and not feel weird - because, its weird for all.
generally it's cool to gender people as they present themselves. if you're seriously unsure you can just ask what pronouns they prefer, trans people tend to vastly prefer sincere questions to being misgendered.But how would you differentiate between a transgendered person on the street and just someone who likes to dress like that or talk like a woman?
I am at CSD every year in cologne and you see a lot of men, who would fit the latter description.
I am just curious. For someone like me it would be hard to differntiate between them and would, unknowingly, hurt someone if I call them men.
You can
And, not to depress anyone, but let's imagine for a quick second a survey of every single inhabitant of the United States, where Mike lives.
How many of those polled would be sensitive to and understand trans issues? Sadly, I'm gonna go with not the majority. I'm also gonna say that a large group of the people who either don't understand, don't care, or are malicious towards the subject are involved in every US-based organization or corporation that have created many of the things you love and use in your day to day life.
Mike has already taken steps towards understanding, but it takes time. Sorry that not everyone can be the super caring empathy machine some people here claim to be, but when you have had absolutely 0 or near 0 exposure to a subject foreign to your way of thinking you may not always say the right thing on Twitter.
How many of those polled would be sensitive to and understand trans issues? Sadly, I'm gonna go with not the majority. I'm also gonna say that a large group of the people who either don't understand, don't care, or are malicious towards the subject are involved in every US-based organization or corporation that have created many of the things you love and use in your day to day life.
Mike has already taken steps towards understanding, but it takes time. Sorry that not everyone can be the super caring empathy machine some people here claim to be, but when you have had absolutely 0 or near 0 exposure to a subject foreign to your way of thinking you may not always say the right thing on Twitter.
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