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RPG battle system idiosyncrasies that you wish all RPG devs would copy

There are so many videogame RPGs over the past 40 years that nothing is "standard" anymore, but I do wish certain things were included (where applicable):

- Exploit weaknesses / press your luck for extra turns. The Shin Megami Tensei (and Persona) games knock down opponents and/or give players an extra turn if they attack the weak element of the target. Bravely Default lets you borrow turns from the future with the penalty that your opponents get several turns in a row. Basically any mechanic that rewards players with extra turns / quicker battles is neat.

- Real-time button presses to extend a combo or guarantee a critical. The chain of Super Mario RPGs all use a mechanic that rewards well-timed button presses with an extra hit or a critical. Not every RPG needs the same kind of minigame Special moves like in the M&L games, but even a simple reward for timing is much appreciated.

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What else should be standard but isn't?
 
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synchronicity

Gold Member
- Exploit weaknesses / press your luck for extra turns. The Shin Megami Tensei (and Persona) games knock down opponents and/or give players an extra turn if they attack the weak element of the target. Bravely Default lets you borrow turns from the future with the penalty that your opponents get several turns in a row. Basically any mechanic that rewards players with extra turns / quicker battles is neat.

To add to that, one thing I love that SMT does very well is that battle success is less leveling-dependent, and more strategy-dependent. It's empowering, and I wish more RPGs did that well.

Also, all RPGs should make escaping battles quick and painless. Sometimes you just want/need to explore/move, and you don't want to be bothered/sidetracked with any intrusions to that aim. Granted it's become less of an issue with time, but it's still not always as painless and easily avoidable as it ought to be imo.
 
phantasy star 4 Macros & combination attacks
Macros would be amazing. And yeah, combo attacks are cool too. Gimme a reason to use a certain mix of party members!

To add to that, one thing I love that SMT does very well is that battle success is less leveling-dependent, and more strategy-dependent. It's empowering, and I wish more RPGs did that well.

Also, all RPGs should make escaping battles quick and painless. Sometimes you just want/need to explore/move, and you don't want to be bothered/sidetracked with any intrusions to that aim. Granted it's become less of an issue with time, but it's still not always as painless and easily avoidable as it ought to be imo.
I understand the devs don't want you to flee from difficult battles, but it's your own time you're wasting anyway.
 

Nymphae

Banned
Timed button presses for more damage like FF8 and Chrono Cross. Why not, just adds a bit more twitch gameplay to combat systems, I loved that shit so much I tended to just do that in any RPG whether or not it affected my damage output.
 

Fbh

Member
Combined attacks like in Chrono Trigger:
It's cool on a conceptual and visual level, and adds an additional layer of strategy to your party setup. Playing it back then I really thought it would be something that we'd see in tons of JRPG's moving forward


f20.gif



Over 20 years later and it's still not much of a thing
 

Thabass

Member
One of my favorite elements of Final Fantasy X was the ability to Switch characters on the fly and setup different situations. FFX also did an amazing job with how enemies were developed. If you've never played it before: Pretty much every character can defeat one type of enemy better than their partners could.

An example this is Auron.

Auron had the sole ability in the early part of the game to have a piercing weapon. Square designed certain enemies with more armor that needed a weapon stat of "Piercing" to deal optimal damage.

Of course the further you get into the game, any character can have this ability and even match Auron's power. But it was stuff like this that made fighting enemies fun. Each enemy had a puzzle like quality to them and even though they're easy to figure out and even easier to defeat, it was still fun figuring out who you could use and couldn't use on certain enemies.
 

Ballthyrm

Member
I really liked the timeline system of John wick Hex.
Measuring action in time allow people to either take quick actions or long ones.
Visualize what enemies are going to do.
It could even scale up to combos and allow to synchronize with other Friendly NPCs.

john_wick_hex_11.jpg
 

autoduelist

Member
-i liked the multiple guard/shield types of Mass Effect which forced you to vary attacks to do actual damage

-i will be forever sad Natural Doctrine flopped because i want to see it evolve further

-srpgs and trpgs where height, terrain, flanking, and barriers matter

-conceptually, i like ffxiii where the ai can handle obvious decisions and you play the meta game. Needs evolution tho.

-nemesis system is a very cool innovation that could be further explored in rpgs

-'bases' for rando enemies that, once defeated, ends them spawning in the local and/or world map

-rare, but i love the combo system in Sanctuary RPG. Basically, certain attacks begin multi-choice combos. Ie, you can't do a flame punch if you don't do a 'flame charge' first. Enemies also have combos... and combos can be broken. This, done right, causes a fantastically complex rock paper scissors as you try to pull off your best moves. [This is turn based, mind you]

-cool crafting systems for skill upgrades can work well. Rogue galaxy comes to mind, where in order to upgrade characters super attack you need to find, say, a gidget and a widget, but when you finally find that rare widger you realize you also need one to upgrade your other character's best spell.

-zzgo
 

Fuz

Banned
Combined attacks like in Chrono Trigger:
It's cool on a conceptual and visual level, and adds an additional layer of strategy to your party setup. Playing it back then I really thought it would be something that we'd see in tons of JRPG's moving forward


f20.gif



Over 20 years later and it's still not much of a thing
Came here to post this.
 
-rare, but i love the combo system in Sanctuary RPG. Basically, certain attacks begin multi-choice combos. Ie, you can't do a flame punch if you don't do a 'flame charge' first. Enemies also have combos... and combos can be broken. This, done right, causes a fantastically complex rock paper scissors as you try to pull off your best moves. [This is turn based, mind you]
Monster Hunter Stories (3DS) did this recently: it was most obvious when using a Hunting Horn, but all the weapons had a list of combos that would activate if you did specific move-types in a row (like Technical > Technical > Speed).

Legend of Legaia (PS1) had a really in-depth combo system that matched the martial arts theme.
 

daveonezero

Banned
RPG systems are so intriguing to me. There Is a reason why the genre has infiltrated every other genre. The numbers the progression ect.

To me it is a complex game of balance a developer has to do managing all the systems. Making the player engaged and keeping things fresh and fun.

So far I am loving DQ11S. it is simple but there is enough variety of characters, customization and just beautiful visuals that make it all work really well. I just got the transportation 15 hours in and really enjoying it as it moves between set pieces and story. And the auto combat is great. I have it set to where weak enemies don't give me XP so that negates the grinding too and some of the harder Boses have taken me close to a party wipe.


Nothing to do with combat, but.. speech bubbles that inform me if NPCs have something new to say or additional dialogue are such an awesome QoL feature it should be in anything.
Yes I'm playing DQ11S right now and I love this.

I also like just being able to move in the combat arena. The only thing I don't like is that the battles go into a battle screen. I think its unnecessary and it should be like Chrono Trigger where battles take place in the same scenery. One reason why I'm drawn to I am Setsuna.

- Scaling Enemies
- Unskippable Cutscenes Before Boss Fights
- Shuffling Around Party Members And Their Equipment Constantly

All good stuff and also why FF8 is the best game ever made.

Really? FF8 maybe the next thing I pick up on Switch. I've played some of 7 and 9 and never finished them.
 

Paltheos

Member
Games where your party members fight for you in place of you issuing every command should offer macro options, ala Final Fantasy 12. The Gambit system is amazing and I can't believe I haven't seen it copied.

Tales games offer something like it - You can turn on/off artes and choose from different AI types, but it's not quite the same. It kinda works for what those games are though.

It's less excusable in something like Xenoblade which is similar to FF12 in so many ways. I just feel like I'm playing a worse version of a better game.
 

Paltheos

Member
I really liked the Xenogears combo/death blow combat. I'm still shocked more turn based RPGs didn't use it.

Possibly because there's not much to it. Once you learn a new Deathblow in Xenogears there's 0 reason to use a lower-ranked one. Sure, it looks cool - There's a ton of sprite work in there and the aftereffects are neat too - It's a visual spectacle for sure, but it pretty much serves to keep you from getting bored fighting.

Small tangent, but the only time I don't just use my strongest deathblow/magic every turn in that game is in the Redrum fight. The game incentivizes you to save all your AP and unleash it all at once as he uses an instant-kill attack more frequently once his HP drops below a certain threshold.
 

ThatGamingDude

I am a virgin
I know it sounds bad I say this because it IS a trope...
But I REALLY like FF9's implementation of stats, skills, and items
That mixed with the FF10/FF12 "Pick your class," mechanic was pretty boss, and would really like to see that flexibility added to the genre as whole
 

autoduelist

Member
Monster Hunter Stories (3DS) did this recently: it was most obvious when using a Hunting Horn, but all the weapons had a list of combos that would activate if you did specific move-types in a row (like Technical > Technical > Speed).

Legend of Legaia (PS1) had a really in-depth combo system that matched the martial arts theme.

I completely ignored MHS because i thought it was another mh action game... is it turn based? If so, i will grab it. I can't remember if ive played or own LoL.. hmm.


Oh, and press turn is amazing, of course, but you list that in op
 
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I completely ignored MHS because i thought it was another mh action game... is it turn based? If so, i will grab it. I can't remember if ive played or own LoL.. hmm.
Yessir, it is purely turn-based. I completed the main story plus a good chunk of the bonus material in 43 hours so it's a nice breezy RPG, too. It is lighthearted compared to the main series:

 

cireza

Member
Exploit weaknesses / press your luck for extra turns
IMHO, this is actually a poor mechanic in the rewards it gives in the SMT games : an additional action. Way too powerful, and ruins the logic of gameplay as you are going to do this 100% of the time, instead of thinking of other solutions.

Best "recent" turn based battle system is Lost Odyssey. Weak casters that you have to protect, casting takes turns, extremely powerful magic, and tanks that are in the front to endure the attacks. Weaknesses on enemies that you have to exploit for damage. Great balance and requires thinking for each and every battle.

Battle systems with variable turns, like FF X or Trails games, with a notion of delay and priority. These are very interesting systems as well. Lost Odyssey kind of has this element of delay because of how long the casters take to launch their spells.

I also like when their are zones of effect, like in Chrono Trigger and Trails games. This opens great possibilities.

As for older games, Phantasy Star IV and Chrono Trigger are the reference for me. Happy to see they were already mentioned.
 
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IMHO, this is actually a poor mechanic in the rewards it gives in the SMT games : an additional action. Way too powerful, and ruins the logic of gameplay as you are going to do this 100% of the time, instead of thinking of other solutions.

Best "recent" turn based battle system is Lost Odyssey. Weak casters that you have to protect, casting takes turns, extremely powerful magic, and tanks that are in the front to endure the attacks. Weaknesses on enemies that you have to exploit for damage. Great balance and requires thinking for each and every battle.

Battle systems with variable turns, like FF X or Trails games, with a notion of delay and priority. These are very interesting systems as well. Lost Odyssey kind of has this element of delay because of how long the casters take to launch their spells.

As for older games, Phantasy Star IV is the reference for me. Happy to see it was already mentioned.
The additional action isn't enough to steamroll powerful enemies, but it serves as a great way to grind through the basic enemies without using up too much of the player's time. The tradeoff is that bosses are ridiculously overpowered in certain ways and require

I think the complaint about not "thinking of other solutions" is a general RPG issue and not unique to SMT. Most games do not encourage players to use 80% of the abilities, especially the status ones like Poison or Silence (half the time, the enemies can't be affected by the status anyway).

Maybe a combo-system like autoduelist autoduelist mentioned would be a good workaround. There's a spell in Bravely Default (I'm playing through it so it's fresh in my mind) called Exterminate which specifically exploits enemies that are poisoned. There's a Psychic move in the Pokemon franchise called Dream Eater that hurts a Sleeping enemy but misses if they are awake. I love stuff like that.

Haven't played Lost Odyssey, actually. I do have a 360 hooked up downstairs so maybe I'll add it to the collection one of these days.
 
- Real-time button presses to extend a combo or guarantee a critical. The chain of Super Mario RPGs all use a mechanic that rewards well-timed button presses with an extra hit or a critical. Not every RPG needs the same kind of minigame Special moves like in the M&L games, but even a simple reward for timing is much appreciated.
I loved Paper Mario and TTYD because of this mechanic. What was great about TTYD was that the QTE's were very diversified so it didn't feel too repetitive. The addition of the parry mechanic with B was very simple, but also effective. It's harder to pull off than the typical "block with A", but if you execute it perfectly, you get no damage.
 

Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
IMHO, this is actually a poor mechanic in the rewards it gives in the SMT games : an additional action. Way too powerful, and ruins the logic of gameplay as you are going to do this 100% of the time, instead of thinking of other solutions.
Not really, it helps to finish off weaker enemies but against more powerful enemy and bosses it’s not easy and also don’t forget enemies can do same thing to you as well.

OT: I want all my party members get same XP points even the ones I’m not using and I want switch party member during battle like you do in TMS#FE.
 
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Pejo

Member
Possibly because there's not much to it. Once you learn a new Deathblow in Xenogears there's 0 reason to use a lower-ranked one. Sure, it looks cool - There's a ton of sprite work in there and the aftereffects are neat too - It's a visual spectacle for sure, but it pretty much serves to keep you from getting bored fighting.

Small tangent, but the only time I don't just use my strongest deathblow/magic every turn in that game is in the Redrum fight. The game incentivizes you to save all your AP and unleash it all at once as he uses an instant-kill attack more frequently once his HP drops below a certain threshold.
Add elements to different DBs. Then they all can remain useful. There's a lot of ways to go with it and improve it, I just meant I love the combo button based type combat with special attacks for certain combos.
 
All the weird stuff from Last Remnant, I love how vague your battles are.You literally can't do what you want so to speak.It all feels like a game based on moment to moment opportunities instead of what's optimum.
The Last Remnant introduced a lot of stuff that I wish other RPGs would replicate. The positioning of your units on the field and not having direct control went along with the larger scale of the combat.
 

cireza

Member
Not really, it helps to finish off weaker enemies but against more powerful enemy and bosses it’s not easy and also don’t forget enemies can do same thing to you as well.
Still pretty poor overall, that's what I get from the few games I played in the series. Far from being as interesting as FFX, Trails of Lost Odyssey.
 

Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
Still pretty poor overall, that's what I get from the few games I played in the series. Far from being as interesting as FFX, Trails of Lost Odyssey.
I personally love it, this why I love press turn system in SMT/Persona. Not liking doesn't really make it "poor".
 

Katsura

Member
No timed button presses in my RPGs please. If it's optional, it's acceptable. I really like the the 'free' movement in games such as Trails of Cold Steel and it also adds the possibility of targeted AoEs for buffs and attacks. I'd like to see a system like that combined with support attacks kinda like in Fire Emblem games
 

autoduelist

Member
The additional action isn't enough to steamroll powerful enemies, but it serves as a great way to grind through the basic enemies without using up too much of the player's time. The tradeoff is that bosses are ridiculously overpowered in certain ways and require

I think the complaint about not "thinking of other solutions" is a general RPG issue and not unique to SMT. Most games do not encourage players to use 80% of the abilities, especially the status ones like Poison or Silence (half the time, the enemies can't be affected by the status anyway).

Maybe a combo-system like autoduelist autoduelist mentioned would be a good workaround. There's a spell in Bravely Default (I'm playing through it so it's fresh in my mind) called Exterminate which specifically exploits enemies that are poisoned. There's a Psychic move in the Pokemon franchise called Dream Eater that hurts a Sleeping enemy but misses if they are awake. I love stuff like that.

Haven't played Lost Odyssey, actually. I do have a 360 hooked up downstairs so maybe I'll add it to the collection one of these days.


Too many games allow grinding to undermine their battle system. That is, rather than explore the battle system, people seem to often attack attack attack heal lowerlings til they are strong enough to aaah the boss. Die? Go grind some more.

This is why the best boss of all time was The Matador. If you had been aaah-ing your way through, good luck grinding your way to victory. Rather, he was a skill/understanding check. If you understood the systems and press turn, you could kill him.

And i think that's the answer, to some degree. Either a different leveling system or better ai that doesn't reward pure grinding [not that zero grinding is a good thing], but rather, skill.

Some newer combat focused card battlers [slay the spire comes to mind] are clearly balanced in this regard. You never really have a chance to grind, as the number of battles and ways to acquire new cards are limited. You can still build an amazing deck, but it requires careful navigation and understanding of the systems over many playthroughs.

Now, you don't play a longer rpg a hundred times, so it can't quite be that... but a game that keeps pushing you forward might play well [not in a timer sense like those alchemist games, timers are too stressful]. But like you say, monster that require you to poison them and then use a special skill are cool.

Actually, going back to fxiii, i really like how repeatedly killing certain monsters filled in your knowledge of their weaknesses... that can be evolved into something. Each monster having a bell curve, where you struggle to defeat them and learn their obscure weaknesses, but as your characters grow accustomed they eventually just slay them. But that is easy to say and hard to design.

Back to cool ideas in other games:
Im playing dqxi with my son right now.... i really like how when they are both pepped, different characters can have special moves and combo moves. Its Better than being able to abuse super moves.
 

Paltheos

Member
Add elements to different DBs. Then they all can remain useful. There's a lot of ways to go with it and improve it, I just meant I love the combo button based type combat with special attacks for certain combos.

True, you can make more of it. Legend of Legaia showed sparks of something like that too. It's generally in your best interest to just use your strongest attacks over and over, but there's one boss who spams the rot status which disables certain limbs and thus certain combos. It was a neat diversion anyway!
 

killatopak

Member
Some sort of combo system that rewards intelligent/efficient use like say in VP2.

It’s kinda boring just pressing X to attack.
 

mcjmetroid

Member
I'm no expert on the subject but I actually Prefer Octopath traveller's combat to Dragon Quest XI.

The ability to decide whether you want to attack or save it for a more powerful attack later is fantastic.

The break mechanic is great.

and the ability to see what enemy will attack next gave the boss battles a great sense of strategy.
 

Katsura

Member
The additional action isn't enough to steamroll powerful enemies, but it serves as a great way to grind through the basic enemies without using up too much of the player's time. The tradeoff is that bosses are ridiculously overpowered in certain ways and require

I think the complaint about not "thinking of other solutions" is a general RPG issue and not unique to SMT. Most games do not encourage players to use 80% of the abilities, especially the status ones like Poison or Silence (half the time, the enemies can't be affected by the status anyway).

Maybe a combo-system like autoduelist autoduelist mentioned would be a good workaround. There's a spell in Bravely Default (I'm playing through it so it's fresh in my mind) called Exterminate which specifically exploits enemies that are poisoned. There's a Psychic move in the Pokemon franchise called Dream Eater that hurts a Sleeping enemy but misses if they are awake. I love stuff like that.

Haven't played Lost Odyssey, actually. I do have a 360 hooked up downstairs so maybe I'll add it to the collection one of these days.
This really grinds my gears and FF games are particularly guilty of this in my opinion. They add all these spells which only works on standard encounters but using them is usually inefficient. Then all the bosses are immune. Why did they include them then?

That and gimmicky bosses that forces you to play completely contrary to how you've been building your party around your play style the entire time. I hate that as well

Another feature i really like in many remakes is the inclusion of a turbo button. So many turn based RPGs waste a lot of time with battle animations that are pointless. Having the ability to speed them up or even skip them completely makes a big difference to me
 
Still pretty poor overall, that's what I get from the few games I played in the series. Far from being as interesting as FFX, Trails of Lost Odyssey.

FFX weaknesses are like Simon Says - flying use Wakka, fast use Tidus, flan use Lulu, rinse repeat.

And then once you get access to petrifying weapons the whole game outside of bosses goes to hell, and that happens relatively early.

SMT is designed to create a world of fast, dangerous encounters so that you develop a methodical strategic playstyle in how you recruit and fuse demons. If encounters were as dangerous as they in a game without press turn you would just run the second Maragi hit all the fire weaknesses on your team. It creates consequences that require you to test the waters of new areas if you do not want to abuse restarting. It encourages roleplaying like someone trying to survive in a ruined Tokyo or marooned in an alternate dimension formed of humanity's excesses - cover weaknesses, have strong demons who can end the otherside quickly lest someone cast a lucky Mudo on your ass, and learn the terrain of new areas as quick as possible.

On the flip side, I think FFX bosses are fantastic and better than most SMT bosses. Once you realize how powerful buffs and debuffs are in SMT bosses become much easier, and (by design) there are almost always demons available through a couple simple fusions who can counter bosses (Nue comes to mind for Tiamat in Strange Journey, as he whoops her blue ass). In FFX skills and setups matter, and the gimmick actions in different fights add a sense of location m that most other TB battle systems lack.
 
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10-bZWE6To.gif


Skill Based hit/success systems in turn-based games.
Pushing X on Attack is easy. You can literally play the game while sitting on your phone doing whatever else. Your battles don't matter.
So Shadow Hearts introduced that ALL actions are dependent on your ability to succeed using the Judgement Ring. You missed? Suck up the hits for your own failures. Even worse it's keeping a fucking statistic of all your failures.

4-flashbackshanghai_(12).jpg


Needing to focus means you can't relax completely, you have to stay focused, in a game that's horror based with a fair bit of Lovecraftian inspiration as well, that really makes it even better. While trying to survive in this game you'll have to keep a check on your Sanity Points, whereupon you'll lose your mind and go berserk if it reaches 0. Oh and the items you use to fill it up again, well, it also uses that Judgement Ring.
Then the second game, Shadow Hearts: Covenant, thought, fuck it! We'll make you customize this Ring for more risk/reward. Want more, but smaller fields? We got that. One big one? Eat your lower number of attacks.

shadow-hearts-covenant-10.png
 

cireza

Member
This is a good example of bad design in these games. You actually never use slots for "global" spells as enemies are mixed which make them rarely practical. I verified this in Strange Journey, P4G and Tokyo Mirage...

FFX offers great variety as you have Kimahri who is basically your joker character, and you can decide to do the game in numerous ways. A friend made a run where he was only using Rikku's ability to mix and throw stuff, and had Kimahri built the same way.
 

Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
This is a good example of bad design in these games. You actually never use slots for "global" spells as enemies are mixed which make them rarely practical. I verified this in Strange Journey, P4G and Tokyo Mirage...
What? They are very partial, some enemies may not weak to that element but they still take damage from them, especially playing SMT in harder difficulty they very useful.

I’m sorry most of your complain about SMT/Persona combat is less about being “poor design” and more about you personally not liking them.
 

Moneal

Member
Monster Hunter Stories (3DS) did this recently: it was most obvious when using a Hunting Horn, but all the weapons had a list of combos that would activate if you did specific move-types in a row (like Technical > Technical > Speed).

Legend of Legaia (PS1) had a really in-depth combo system that matched the martial arts theme.

Man I thought I was the only person to play Legaia. Loved the combo system. It was so fun to experiment and make 3 move combos to destroy things late game. Dual Saga was not as good, but it was still fun using that system again on PS2.
 

mcz117chief

Member
I just wish there was a way to avoid combat all together, some RPGs provide items and abilities that lower encounter rate but don't eliminate it 100% (repel in Pokémon games does if your primary Pokémon is high enough level).
 

Exentryk

Member
I don't like any real-time component in my turn-based games, so timing a button press for some critical hit/etc is a strict no-no. I do agree with the borrowing turns aspect. I prefer the Bravely way though rather than exploiting weakness.

Anyway, I'd just like more games to have QoL aspects:
- Random Encounter Rate Toggle (Like Bravely games did it)
- Unlimited items, but can only use them once or few times in battle (From Cosmic Star Heroine)
- No chance based or random aspects in combat
- Option to save party setup with gear. (From Bravely Second)
- Option to repeat a set of commands (From Bravely games)
...
Just look at Bravely games lol.
 
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