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[SugarDave]

Shit got real on this page, huh?

One thing I noticed that valkyre posted while glancing through that I wanted to address, the section of MGS2 where Raiden is naked while sneaking through Arsenal Gear isn't played for laughs. It serves a dual purpose, it not only symbolises his brutal revival as a character after we have just learned about his true past as a child soldier, but it's also the moment Raiden begins rejecting our inputs as the player. Think about the scene where he meets up with Snake afterwards and the codec conversation where he talks about 'image training'. Snake completely dwarfs him in this scene as the perfect picture of what we ideally wanted to see in a sequel to Metal Gear Solid. It not only makes a mockery of Raiden, it makes a mockery of us.

EDIT: Shit got real on the last page then.

 

[hateradio]

As far as greater meaning in Guns of the Patriots, if you're willing to do a little reading, let me know if you get any insight out of Mr. Wolfe's MGS4: Sold Out.

I can see how some of his points may be valid, and I can agree with his view that Kojima wanted "to ruin" Metal Gear for a particular subset of its fans. However, I don't think he was tired of working on MG, because if he were . . . he wouldn't still be making games eight years later! (Although some fatigue makes sense, since he took a bit of a break here and there.)

He disappointed a lot of us with MGS2, that is true, but I think most people understood the game's goal, which is why there were so many weird speculations and theories.

As far as MGS3 goes, I don't think we really have any evidence there for Kojima's sabotage. In fact, most people think of it as a great part of the series, because it is both down to earth and completely out there.

I doubt that he was under contract with Konami to provide a new game, since every MG is his "last" MG. So if he truly wanted to, he could have cancelled or never started MGS4.

The problem with MGS4 was that he wanted to close the gaps that fans were annoying him about. Not only that, but he went out of his way to close the gaps that no one wanted pieced together.

In that case, it is more of an issue with editing and having no one tell him when to stop.

Maybe he did supply Old Snake as an author avatar as an older, grouchier, deeply depressed man, but there were also many positive aspects to the game. Obviously, we don't know Kojima or his attitude at that time.

I doubt we'll ever uncover the mysteries of why MGS4 came to be the way it was, but so far MGS5 is certainly not falling for any of its traps . . . for now.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

I doubt that he was under contract with Konami to provide a new game, since every MG is his "last" MG. So if he truly wanted to, he could have cancelled or never started MGS4.

Maybe he did supply Old Snake as an author avatar as an older, grouchier, deeply depressed man, but there were also many positive aspects to the game. Obviously, we don't know Kojima or his attitude at that time.

There is something about human nature and not letting go to things we are so strongly entrenched in. It may be a flimsy metaphor, but if people truly wanted to they could simply quit smoking, right? While I currently can't find any interviews where Kojima outright says he's sick of Metal Gear (And I thing at one point he did say that), he has constantly noted that he never intended to make a direct sequel to MGS2.

If you simply take the set up of MGS4 and compare it to Kojima it's really the only thing that makes sense.

A once budding optimistic man who is now tired and sick of the world being brought back into the fight to finish off loose ends at the request of a long time "friend" who needs one last job done.

He disappointed a lot of us with MGS2, that is true, but I think most people understood the game's goal, which is why there were so many weird speculations and theories.

No, people at the time did not get MGS2. Really, the recent understanding of the game has come out of youtube videos and in-depth read-ups from a few years ago. At the time of release the vast majority of fans didn't really get the message, and hell, the vast majority of people on GAF don't give a shit about the message and just go "Well, it's just the Patriots, their isn't any deeper meaning. I think you're just looking too much into it".

I think it's unfortunately a belief that is held true by most MGS fans after the trauma and brain fuck they experienced after MGS2, which is actually a very logical response for cognitive dissidence.

"When dissonance is present, in addition to trying to reduce it, the person will actively avoid situations and information which would likely increase the dissonance"

 

[R_Deckard]

SUCH a superb game (aside the WAY too many/long Cutscenes) I remember buying it, getting it 2 days early and spending 2 days completing it some very late nights.

I also was on of the few that

Spoiler

Love the 1950's sepia detective section of the game, really thought it was clever and fun, but the end we all know he should have pulled the trigger!!

 

[hateradio]

A once budding optimistic man who is now tired and sick of the world being brought back into the fight to finish off loose ends at the request of a long time "friend" who needs one last job done.

Isn't that the premise of MGS1?

No, people at the time did not get MGS2. Really, the recent understanding of the game has come out of youtube videos and in-depth read-ups from a few years ago. At the time of release the vast majority of fans didn't really get the message, and hell, the vast majority of people on GAF don't give a shit about the message and just go "Well, it's just the Patriots, their isn't any deeper meaning. I think you're just looking too much into it".

I think it's unfortunately a belief that is held true by most MGS fans after the trauma and brain fuck they experienced after MGS2, which is actually a very logical response for cognitive dissidence.

I don't know, since I only have my memories to go by. I remember back in high school (pre-YT) there was some interest into the themes and various aspects of MGS2. No one took it at face value.

Personally, I didn't like Raiden as a character, I didn't connect to him, and there was something weird about the whole atmosphere. However, one of the guys I talked with really related to him and his "sad room."

I was always suspicious about the whole thing because Snake was only on the periphery, while we were left to uncover the plot. Regardless, as we approach the end, we realize the premise falls apart, and that there is in fact something more to the story: S3 project, Patriots, GW, crazy Colonel, Rosemary, holy fuck what's going on! Enjoy culture and pass it on to your kids, yo!

I didn't really post online back then, so I can't say much about GAF or other message boards at the time.

 

[Blastoise]

This was my first PS3 game and also my first Metal Gear.

I think it was great. I have gone back to all of them and I felt that only MGS 3 was better.

EDIT: Oh FUCK how could I forget about MGO !!!!

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Isn't that the premise of MGS1?

Yea, but context is everything, and when you put in the context of Snake in MGS2 (Who is real in canon) it's a huge deviation.

I don't know, since I only have my memories to go by. I remember back in high school (pre-YT) there was some interest into the themes and various aspects of MGS2. No one took it at face value.

Personally, I didn't like Raiden as a character, I didn't connect to him, and there was something weird about the whole atmosphere. However, one of the guys I talked with really related to him and his "sad room."

I was always suspicious about the whole thing because Snake was only on the periphery, while we were left to uncover the plot. Regardless, as we approach the end, we realize the premise falls apart, and that there is in fact something more to the story (S3 project, Patriots, GW, crazy Colonel, Rosemary, holy fuck what's going on! Enjoy culture and pass it on to your kids, yo!).

I didn't really post online back then, so I can't say much about GAF or other message boards at the time.

Well, I was only in the second grade when I first played it so none of my classmates even knew about MGS, let alone could even possibly have a discussion on it(Because, well we were eight). But almost all of the discussion I've seen in MGS forums and online have taken MGS2 at face value. Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places.

Also I'm talking about GAF now and a lot of responses I get when I bring up MGS2 or when I made a thread about MGS canon and themes/meta-narrative. "Just go with the crazy, it's par for the course!" when it was really never crazy, and when it was in MGS2 it was part of a theme and not just stupid exposition.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Something I just found out about the inspiration for MGS4's back story:

Campbell:

Because of the military might of the PMCs, and the effect they have on the economy. War is to the 21st century what oil was to the 20th: The pillar that supports the global economy. You'll recall a rather alarming report issued by that American think tank during the Cold War, one that described a new model for perpetual war. What we're facing now is a whole new ballgame.

Snake:

Iron Mountain's "Delphi technique"...

Campbell:

That was fiction. It existed only on paper. The reality is far more serious. The global community is concerned, but they're all too afraid of the war economy collapsing to do anything about it. The U.N., too.

I was wondering what that "Iron Mountain" stuff was. Turns out it was a (apparently hoax) paper written by a Think Tank. They came to the conclusion that:

...that peace was not in the interest of a stable society, that even if lasting peace "could be achieved, it would almost certainly not be in the best interests of society to achieve it." War was a part of the economy. Therefore, it was necessary to conceive a state of war for a stable economy.

Which is a pretty cool reference from Kojima... especially when you find out that one of the panel members of this (fictitious) Think Tank by the moniker of "John Doe".

Kojima is either super well read, a conspiracy nut... or both.

 

[Resilient]

Something that really shits me is when people say "nobody understand MGS2 at the time". That's just straight up bullshit. Just because you didn't get it, doesn't mean it went over the heads of everybody else. Yeah there was some intense stuff in there but the story explained itself, as well as its themes.

Such an annoying thing that has really caught on the last few years..

 

[Screaming Meat]

Something that really shits me is when people say "nobody understand MGS2 at the time". That's just straight up bullshit. Just because you didn't get it, doesn't mean it went over the heads of everybody else. Yeah there was some intense stuff in there but the story explained itself, as well as its themes.

Such an annoying thing that has really caught on the last few years..

Out of interest, did you realise the purposefully misleading marketing for the game tied in with themes?

 

[psychotron]

Something that really shits me is when people say "nobody understand MGS2 at the time". That's just straight up bullshit. Just because you didn't get it, doesn't mean it went over the heads of everybody else. Yeah there was some intense stuff in there but the story explained itself, as well as its themes.

Such an annoying thing that has really caught on the last few years..

The story for 2 did go over my head, but it was my own fault because I wasn't actively trying to follow it. The story in MGS 1 grabbed me right away, but I didn't feel that with the next game. I've recently gone back and started playing it again, and I'm enjoying everything so much more. I blame my young self.

 

[Resilient]

Out of interest, did you realise the purposefully misleading marketing for the game tied in with themes?

On first playthrough, no. On subsequent? Yes. I doubt anybody would have understood everything first run through because the last Act throws a lot at that player. Once you watch those sequences again; heck, even the first time you speak to the Colonel and Rose at the start of Plant - you should have pieced it together pretty quickly.

In fact, I really don't get how anybody can say they didn't get it if they played through it 2 or more times at release. It's purposely confusing the first time around so that you understand everything the 2nd and onwards.

 

[Screaming Meat]

On first playthrough, no. On subsequent? Yes. I doubt anybody would have understood everything first run through because the last Act throws a lot at that player. Once you watch those sequences again; heck, even the first time you speak to the Colonel and Rose at the start of Plant - you should have pieced it together pretty quickly.

In fact, I really don't get how anybody can say they didn't get it if they played through it 2 or more times at release. It's purposely confusing the first time around so that you understand everything the 2nd and onwards.

I didn't get the connection to the marketing for a good long while after my initial playthroughs. Blew my mind.

How about "Raiden is the Player", did you pick up on that straight away?

 

[schaft0620]

MGS and MGS 2 are 2 of my all time favorite games. I couldn't get into 3, 4 nor did I even try Rising. I kinda want to play 5 but I am so out of touch with MGS someone help me.

 

[Screaming Meat]

MGS and MGS 2 are 2 of my all time favorite games. I couldn't get into 3, 4 nor did I even try Rising. I kinda want to play 5 but I am so out of touch with MGS someone help me.

Help yourself by retrying 3.

 

[Resilient]

I didn't get the connection to the marketing for a good long while after my initial playthroughs. Blew my mind.

How about "Raiden is the Player", did you pick up on that straight away?

I've always thought this but don't know how sure fire a thing it is. I really think a lot of this stuff was understandable after another playthrough or so. Lol, perhaps I'm being a bit harsh - the marketing/reveals stuff I guess you'd only pick up on if you were die hard following it at the time!

MGS and MGS 2 are 2 of my all time favorite games. I couldn't get into 3, 4 nor did I even try Rising. I kinda want to play 5 but I am so out of touch with MGS someone help me.

!!

Treat yourself to 3. Seriously - it holds up so well, it will really shock you how lacking some current gen blockbusters are compared to MGS3!!

 

[Griss]

My 'feeling' about MGS4 (and it's nothing but a purely personal feeling) is that it's like MGS2 if MGS2 was awesome instead of dog mess.

For whatever reason the general insanity of MGS2 left me bored to tears and weary of Kojima's pretentious bullshit, a weariness I still feel like a phantom pain when reading MGS2 fanboy threads to this very day. On the other hand, the absolute fanservice bravura bullshit of MGS4 was magnificent from start to end. I was either laughing my head off or on the edge of my seat for almost the entire game, one poorly judged end-game cutscene

Spoiler

ZERO

aside.

Dat Meryl and Johnny shootout, though. A stupidity that may never be topped, and just one of many reasons why MGS4 is so great.

 

[Thaumaturgic Tomato]

I just watched the movie AKIRA for the first time. Neo-Tokyo, cool stuff.

I want Kojima to redo Snatcher/Policenauts or something similar (which is Neo-Tokyo-esque), and do it with the animation and graphics team who made Guilty Gear Xrd. Certainly no motion tracked anything or photographed anything. A fun, colorful game world. The future as envisioned from the 80's, not 2014.

Snatcher, Policenauts, both have that AKIRA look. I'd love for Kojima to lighten up and go back to his anime-influenced past. I bet a part of him wants to.

 

[Screaming Meat]

I've always thought this but don't know how sure fire a thing it is. I really think a lot of this stuff was understandable after another playthrough or so. Lol, perhaps I'm being a bit harsh - the marketing/reveals stuff I guess you'd only pick up on if you were die hard following it at the time!

I think you are a teeny bit.

Raiden is totally the Player. Way too much stuff indicating it to be ignored.

Treat yourself to 3. Seriously - it holds up so well, it will really shock you how lacking some current gen blockbusters are compared to MGS3!!

LISTEN TO THIS MAN

 

[Resilient]

My 'feeling' about MGS4 (and it's nothing but a purely personal feeling) is that it's like MGS2 if MGS2 was awesome instead of dog mess.

For whatever reason the general insanity of MGS2 left me bored to tears and weary of Kojima's pretentious bullshit, a weariness I still feel like a phantom pain when reading MGS2 fanboy threads to this very day. On the other hand, the absolute fanservice bravura bullshit of MGS4 was magnificent from start to end. I was either laughing my head off or on the edge of my seat for almost the entire game, one poorly judged end-game cutscene

Spoiler

ZERO

aside.

Dat Meryl and Johnny shootout, though. A stupidity that may never be topped, and just one of many reasons why MGS4 is so great.

Lol, one of the most self indulgent cut scenes in any MGS and you gloss over it , but MGS2 is pretentious? Crazy. Don't know how you can say that with a straight face. The game came out in 2001. There was nothing else like it for years to come.

I think you are a teeny bit.

Raiden is totally the Player. Way too much stuff indicating it to be ignored.

MGS2 was my first and only PS2 game for a very long while! I had no choice but to play it repeatedly.

 

[Screaming Meat]

On the other hand, the absolute fanservice bravura bullshit of MGS4 was magnificent from start to end.

That's my major issue with the game.

Also? Wash your moaf out, son. MGS2 is goddamned close to being a genuine piece of Art.

 

[Reknoc]

if raiden was the player he would have told rose to fuck off

 

[Screaming Meat]

if raiden was the player he would have told rose to fuck off

Nah. If Raiden is the player he wouldn't have the balls to cut off his only smanging supply. The thirst is real.

 

[Griss]

Lol, one of the most self indulgent cut scenes in any MGS and you gloss over it , but MGS2 is pretentious? Crazy. Don't know how you can say that with a straight face. The game came out in 2001. There was nothing else like it for years to come.



MGS2 was my first and only PS2 game for a very long while! I had no choice but to play it repeatedly.

I genuinely believe that most of MGS4 was tongue-in-cheek, Kojima fucking around and giving the fans what they wanted because he was forced to make the game. There's no way he does half of that shit with a straight face unless he's on drugs.

MGS2, on the other hand, was him thinking he was a genius after the brilliant MGS1 and getting lost in his own rectum. He may have made some exceptionally forward-thinking points about memes and information processing and modern society along the way, but that didn't make the game any more fun to play or the plot any more coherent or the cutscenes any easier to sit through or the characters any easier to bear. It was a terrible experience.

 

[Reknoc]

Nah. If Raiden is the player he wouldn't have the balls to cut off his only smanging supply. The thirst is real.

Good point, I don't think any one else would go near a person who gets into a heated debate about which building King Kong climbed

 

[Screaming Meat]

It was a terrible experience.

I found the gameplay was refined 1000x more than MGS and it had little to no performance issues and played like a dream (one frame rate drop in the Tanker Chapter is all I can think of). The atmosphere was unique and complimented by the music which was top-notch (the music in Arsenal Gear my favourite in the series). The level of detail was mind boggling, way beyond MGS. The plot and themes had a broad, forward-thinking point to make that few games had touched upon at the time, deconstructing not just Metal Gear but the relationship between players and games, as well as the nature of reality in the Information Age. The characters were really well developed. The enemy AI was brilliant (I wish they'd bring back their sweep and clear tactics for MGSV). It was funny in both clever and childish ways. It was surprising, emotional, clever and above all a blast to play...

...nah, I gotta disagree, man. I had an amazing experience with it.

 

[SupaDupaDiva]

Hint: there aren't that many easter eggs/secrets in MGS4 when compared to MGS2 and MGS3. Looking at the wikis, MGS4 has stuff during briefings, and specific codec instances with Otacon and Rose. It seems long codec conversations were replaced with specific calls to be made. And for somebody who has beaten every MGS on their hardest difficulties, you sure didn't dive into the plethora of extra codec calls in MGS2. Tons of side info there.

and you call yourself hardcore MGS player... there is a MGS4 podcast in the game, if you listen to it, it's fucking easter eggs galore, there are literally easter egg in MGS4 on every step you make. I like how in Act 3 your suite is 100% copy of Blade Runner main character suite (one of Kojima's favorite movies), or in some parts of Act 3 you can see dwarf gekko dressed in coat spying on you, oh even near one house in Act 3 you can hear someone playing Metal Gear on MSX. Oh man how ignorant can people like you be, but sure you are SO HARDCORE player, beaten all MGS on hard, so stronk.

 

[Skel1ingt0n]

Oh... wow. Dat last page.

Can't wait to read this when I'm not at work, lol.

MGS4 is a fantastic game. Phenomenal. One of the best of the generation. I don't believe it's the best MGS, ever, though... but I'm crazy and apparently borderline insane, because my favorite MGS is TTS.

Personally, for me, it's:

MGS TTS/MGS > MGS2 > MGS4 > MGS3 > All the handheld titles

... yeah, I know, nobody agrees with me.

Thing is though, MGS4 is still damn near perfection. Fan service out the wazoo, fantastic graphics, fun story, way improved camera and controls, great characters. The only thing I'd say that is less than great are the bosses, which, admittedly, is a big loss considering the standard caliber Kojima puts out; and some strange difficulty spikes littered throughout.

 

[JoJoSono]

and you call yourself hardcore MGS player... there is a MGS4 podcast in the game, if you listen to it, it's fucking easter eggs galore, there are literally easter egg in MGS4 on every step you make. I like how in Act 3 your suite is 100% copy of Blade Runner main character suite (one of Kojima's favorite movies), or in some parts of Act 3 you can see dwarf gekko dressed in coat spying on you, oh even near one house in Act 3 you can hear someone playing Metal Gear on MSX. Oh man how ignorant can people like you be, but sure you are SO HARDCORE player, beaten all MGS on hard, so stronk.

Are these supposed to make the game better?

The irony here is you miss that it's a Snatcher refrence which is also Blade Runner.

 

[BibiMaghoo]

Epic game. Actually epic. I think it was fantastic, but... the cutscenes were so long it was a bit silly. I get why, and can freely forgive it, but it is something that was problematic with the game.

Defo up there with my greatest ever games. I need to replay it now it has trophies. I did a no alerts, no health, no kills run, which won't be the slightest bit impressive to many here, but for me to do is unheard of. I play games then move on, and never challenge my play like this. It speaks volumes for the game that I did.

 

[SupaDupaDiva]

Are these supposed to make the game better?

The irony here is you miss that it's a Snatcher refrence which is also Blade Runner.

this is only suppose to show this game has easter eggs on par with any other MGS

 

[Sub_Level]

if raiden was the player he would have told rose to fuck off

MGS2 Rose was based on Jack's own personal taste. She admits as much in Arsenal. A different person would have a different Rose. Some Roses would be black or asian. Some Roses would be more submissive or more aggressive. Some Roses would have short hair and some might have a British or Australian accent.

Good point, I don't think any one else would go near a person who gets into a heated debate about which building King Kong climbed

Just replace the King Kong discussion with a discussion about diminishing returns or 30fps vs 60fp. 90%+ of gaffers will take the bait.

 

[facelike]

I think you are a teeny bit.

Raiden is totally the Player. Way too much stuff indicating it to be ignored.



LISTEN TO THIS MAN

I was a grown man when MGS2 came out and I could never relate to Raiden. He's supposed to be the player but I never felt that till I saw videos of people explaining this. I didn't like him and it drastically took away from the experience. Like watching a movie when the lead constantly does stuff that you find irritating but you progress as you just want to see what happens at the end.

I still like MGS2 the least. All the other games are somewhat more grounded even though non of them take themselves very seriously. The end of MGS2 is a big turn of for me especially when the game starts glitching out. I didnt like the MG Ray battle as it just felt like it too long and repetitive. Beating it gave me the filling of 'thats it....finally' rather than 'yes, that was thrilling'. Lastly, the ending just feels weird, though this is an opinion, I really do not like it.

The taker chapter is good and the game runs wonderfully. But I don't like Raiden as a character and it makes me not a fan of the game no matter how unpopular that opinion is. that is.

Yes, you're right about 3. Everyone should try that game again. Also the same goes for Peace Walker.

 

[Reknoc]

MGS2 Rose was based on Jack's own personal taste. She admits as much in Arsenal. A different person would have a different Rose. Some Roses would be black or asian. Some Roses would be more submissive or more aggressive. Some Roses would have short hair and some might have a British or Australian accent.



Just replace the King Kong discussion with a discussion about diminishing returns or 30fps vs 60fp. 90%+ of gaffers will take the bait.

so if rose is the worst character in the franchise (if lol), it's because that's what jack wants so raiden is by proxy the worst.

But then, I was always under the assumption that being perfect for Jack, other than physically, was when she started the argument about King Kong (the patriots just gave her a piece of paper with "NERD" written on it for his description) but the calls during the game were her because she ended up falling for Jack.

 

[News Bot]

Very nice bite-sized deconstruction of the themes and motifs of the original 'Solid' trilogy, many people have written pages and pages of articles trying to articulate some of the concepts you just described in a few tweet-sized paragraphs. Kudos.

As far as greater meaning in Guns of the Patriots, if you're willing to do a little reading, let me know if you get any insight out of Mr. Wolfe's MGS4: Sold Out.

I still find it kind of funny that Wolfpox was considered a joke for many years but all of a sudden his theories suddenly have weight.

I can't take anyone that still thinks MGS2 was genuinely VR seriously. Also how is Kojima making the game dumb, even if deliberate, somehow okay? It's still bad. It's not deep or meaningful. It's shitty writing. Likewise with the nanomachine nonsense and all the other stupid shit Kojima spewed. It's as bad as "artists" that think slapping paint aimlessly on a canvas qualifies as art.

 

[Screaming Meat]

I still find it kind of funny that Wolfpox was considered a joke for many years but all of a sudden his theories suddenly have weight.

The times, they are a changin'...

What's wrong with the VR Theory? Ties in perfectly with the themes to me.

I was a grown man when MGS2 came out and I could never relate to Raiden.

Me too. I was 21 when the game came out. Oddly, I think you're not really meant to relate him. He's more of a caricature.

 

[Sub_Level]

Also how is Kojima making the game dumb, even if deliberate, somehow okay?

I've never liked the 2deep4u MGS2 theories because most of them make this very presupposition.

There's no need for people to read so much into MGS2, because even at face value it's an incredibly clever and smart game.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

I can't take anyone that still thinks MGS2 was genuinely VR seriously. Also how is Kojima making the game dumb, even if deliberate, somehow okay? It's still bad. It's not deep or meaningful.

I agree. It's really insane the leaps in logic that people go through to try to prove MGS2 is VR. I mean, it's not like the characters names of the characters and environments are directly correlated to parts of the computer. Our character is a very sane person who could easily tell the difference between VR and real life like night and day.

Sure, our character constantly mentions how this whole scenario is mimicking a nightmare you can't wake up from, but your support team simply snaps you out of that notion, and you can trust them! Not to mention how logical Raidens whole mission prep is. Sure, lets not question how Raiden is somehow unaware and needed to be informed that HIS BLOOD WAS TAKEN FROM HIM and replaced with blood loaded with nano-machines.

Colonel: You're currently using artificial blood primed with nanomachines.

Raiden: What did you do with my own blood?

Colonel: It's being kept in cold storage. It will be circulated back into your body when you return

Or the fact that it's the first and only MGS game that doesn't have some type of prologue of the missions set up.

Don't even think about how code is flying around Arsenal Gear, or how Snake magically pops up in the closed off tube and proclaims to have infinite ammo. Forget about that whole RAY fight that takes place on a hologram floor completely identical to an MGS1 VR mission, which no trace of a ladder that you were just climbing and simply vanishes after the boss battle is over, never to be seen again. Forget where Olga comes from, she's simply a ninja who can manifest her existence at any time, even though there is literally no place from her to fall downwards like she did. Oh, and forget about that fade to white, totally not a trope to signify a magical teleportation effect.

And the ending is too real to be VR. Sure, Snake jumps off Arsnal Gear and swims after RAY, an amphibious Metal Gear, catches up to it and plants a tracking device on it and swims back to shore and runs to the exact street where Raiden (Somehow gets down to) is just in time to pop into existence with all the other NPC's.

Don't even think about how Snake points out Rose to Raiden, even though he has never seen her. Don't even think about how Rose could even exist considering like the Colonel , Rose was an AI. And no, there wasn't a switch mid game,Rose was an AI the whole time because she constantly talked to the Colonel who only existed in Raidens head based on his (IE The Players) expectations of what the Colonel would be (Which is why the Colonel is based off Cambel of MGS1) Or why Rose would even be at the crash site of Arsenal Gear in the middle of New York, not freaking out about why her boyfriend is in a skull suit or why a giant turtle has just crash landed in New York?

Nope, just Kojima being stupid with plot holes in a game which is completely formed by cognitive dissidence. Just a simple coincidence. But even if all that is bullshit, MGS2 is still extremely smart with it's face value themes which is why I think it's one of the best game made.

 

[Buckethead]

Crashes hard after Act 3.

It never gets off the ground then the ending is consistently absurd.

 

[Tekku]

Crashes hard after Act 3.

It never gets off the ground then the ending is consistently absurd.

Act 4 starts with a climax though? It's probably the best fan service I've seen in any game ever. But it ends kinda ridiculously though.

 

[Screaming Meat]

I've never liked the 2deep4u MGS2 theories because most of them make this very presupposition.

There's no need for people to read so much into MGS2, because even at face value it's an incredibly clever and smart game.

I think he was talking about MGS4, man.

 

[Sub_Level]

so if rose is the worst character in the franchise (if lol), it's because that's what jack wants so raiden is by proxy the worst.

Well, remember that Raiden didn't want Rose communicating with him at Big Shell. He explicitly protested at the AI colonel about this but Rose said it was gonna happen "if he liked it or not."

You can have a girlfriend that you love also simultaneously be the last person you'd want as a data analyst and field support for your top secret government mission lol.

 

[Gun Animal]

Of course MGS2 was a simulation: Literally, it was a videogame. You were playing a video game the whole time! Surprise! All video games are "VR", but MGS2 knows it.

The whole VR/Not VR argument completely misses the point. In Paul Auster's city of glass, do readers ask "Was it a book?" No, that would be ridiculous. Of course it's a book! Literally: it's a book! Get it?

 

[Reknoc]

So does this mean Snake and Otacon never had their bros4lyfe handshake.

 

[Tookay]

MGS2 fandom's gotten a little too intense for me.

Its best gameplay-related moments happen in its first two hours. From there on, you've got weaker level design (including a pace-killing swimming section), only a handful of average boss fights (excluding Solidus sword fight), and a less interesting setting.

And while I think Kojima was very prescient in some of the themes toward the end, there was a lot of stupid shit in the story that was just dumb and melodramatic. Everybody shits on Naomi's death in MGS4 but have seemingly ignored Otacon crying about Emma. And, while few want to admit this, it basically blew up the mythology of the series - Illuminati villains pretty much set MGS down a path that it could never properly resolve.

It's a fine game and very forward-thinking in its more subversive elements, but... I dunno, I feel like its legend has far outgrown its actual quality.

 

[grimlock442]

Loved MGS1, liked 2, loved 3 bigtime ( MGS3 is my fav ), but 4 was an excruciating slog through the most inane dialogue with such slow pacing, such long cutscenes. I HATED it.

Until the very end. Game ending is so good it makes you forget how awful the rest of it was.

(Ground Zero's was very good. MGS5 will probably be the best one yet and topple MGS3 for myself)


Btw, yes I played all of those games, some of them twice or more, and I STILL have no clue as to what's going on in that universe. It's all just babble babble and then I play.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Of course MGS2 was a simulation: Literally, it was a videogame. You were playing a video game the whole time! Surprise! All video games are "VR", but MGS2 knows it.

The whole VR/Not VR argument completely misses the point. In Paul Auster's city of glass, do readers ask "Was it a book?" No, that would be ridiculous. Of course it's a book! Literally: it's a book! Get it?

Sure. I don't think it necessarily misses the point though, I think it could even reinforce some.

The idea of most fiction is to draw you into the world and hide the artificiality, but much in the same way that The New York Trilogy wants the reader to consider their relationship to stories and make you aware that it is stories that you are reading (for instance, one of the reasons 'Ghosts' has all the characters named after colours is to separate the reader from emotionally connecting and investing in them, to build a wall between the reader and the read), so MGS2 wants the player to question their relationship to games. The VR Theory reading of MGS2 acts as an in-story parallel between Raiden's relationship to his environment and the player's relationship to theirs, in this instance the game itself and, more broadly, the actual world around us. It's a nice narrative explanation that emphasises one of the game's major themes and highlights the connection between Raiden and the player.

One of the great things about MGS2 and why it is such an impressive feat, is it is thematically robust enough to be approached with all kinds of readings.

Everybody shits on Naomi's death in MGS4 but have seemingly ignored Otacon crying about Emma.

Crying about his estranged sister dying after only seeing her for a few minutes? Yeah, what a loser. Man up, ya big geek! ;P

 

[Danielsan]

The microwave hallway and the liquid/ocelot fight instantly make this game a classic.

I really should revisit this game some time.

 

[malfcn]

I have to admit 2 went way over my head. And how has Johnny been shitting his pants since MGS1 on enemy lines, and end up with Meryl?

 

[Screaming Meat]

I have to admit 2 went way over my head. And how has Johnny been shitting his pants since MGS1 on enemy lines, and end up with Meryl?

Some people are into that shit.