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RTTP: Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots - One last punishment I must endure.

Figboy79

Aftershock LA
Seriously, lol. I was very emotional, I can't be held accountable for my feelings!! Is anyone actually glad that the final scene with Big Boss was included?

Raises hand.

I thought it was awesome. Nonsensical, but awesome. It was just great to see Big Boss again. Me and my wife were both like, "Holy shit! Whaaat?" Then he starting jabbering about returning to Zero, but I was still so swept up in the high of the last Act of that game I didn't care. I honestly didn't want the game to end, because it was such a ride.

The absurd and nonsensical have been a part of this series for a long time, so even when MGS4 went crazy, I was still having a blast. For me, the quirkiness of a Kojima game is no different than the quirks all creators/directors/artists have when producing their work. What's more impressive that Kojima, despite having to work with dozens, maybe hundreds(?) of people to produce an MGS game, the end project still carries his unique batshit craziness.

I'd be stupendously disappointed if the MGS series lost that, and opted for a more straight laced, "realistic" presentation, like a Splinter Cell or Call of Duty. There are plenty of games like that already, but very few games as unique as the MGS series. I also just really want a Metal Gear Acid on the Vita.
 

velociraptor

Junior Member
When I completed MGS4 I found it hard to play other games. That's how good of an experience it was.

MGS4 is a game that will live with me forever.

#snakesalute
 

MormaPope

Banned
This is presented as if it is a statement of actual facts, when in fact it is nothing but your own simple opinion.

People should stop presenting their opinions as if they are facts...

I for one loved the game (not my favorite MGS and yes it has quite a few issues) and disagree with a lot of the above "facts".

So you disagree, you could just say that.

Considering there is nothing in your head, not much of this means anything.

I'm a bit lost, what are you referencing? Did I say something offensive earlier?

MGS4 is a fantastic game for us hardcore fans. Unfortunately, it must be impossible to enjoy if you're a newcomer to the series.

This is a pretty ridiculous assertion. Yup, the people being vocal about how much they dislike this game compared to other MGSs jumped into the series in 2008.
 

Zebetite

Banned
I bought a PS3 for the sole purpose of playing MGS4 on my birthday, June 26 of the year 2008. I stayed up all night playing the game, and beat it around 9 AM on June 27th.

One of my fondest memories of any video game is reaching Act 4 around 5 AM.
When I returned to Shadow Moses, and The Best is Yet To Come began to play, and I went and grabbed a pistol from the back of the truck and saw the old Surveillance Camera, all of these complicated emotions welled up in me and my eyes teared up. It was a weirdly ecstatic moment.

Aside from that one incredible memory, my opinion on the game has mostly soured with time. I'm kind of at the point where I dislike the game, nowadays.
 

JoJoSono

Banned
This is presented as if it is a statement of actual facts, when in fact it is nothing but your own simple opinion.

People should stop presenting their opinions as if they are facts...

/QUOTE]
Does he have to add an imo after everything? No one praising the game has done that. It's pretty understood that it's his opinion.


and in my opinion it's the right opinion.

It's a pretty bad game. Kind of a soul crushing disappointment for me. I remember watching every trailer with so much excitment and getting a PS3 right when MGS4 came out. I gut the MGS4 bundle as my Graduation Gift. i then locked myself into my room to sit down and experince what would be the end of my favortie gaming series ever. The series that got my into games.

It did'nt hit me at first. I beat the game and thought to myself "that was ok right?"

It wasn't it was probably the most disappointing game of all time.

- Worst boss fights in the series (by a large margin)
- Least interesting bosses
One of the most obvious flaws is the fact that the bosses in the game are terrible. How do you go from the bossess in MGS1-3 to these? While sure the Cobras don't have much to do in the story as Foxhound or SoL, every MGS boss has had a prescene in the series. Something that makes them a bit enduring and memorable. Some aspect of character. I don't remember a single thing about the Beauty and the Beast Corp. Thier names, what they were about, nothing. I can remember certain lines Fatman said or Sniper Wolf's mannerisms. There was nothing enduring about the BnBs. Dosen't help that thier entire story was told through Drebin's phone calls that all amount to "war was bad and she had a hard life". Talk about lazy and pathetic.

Yet it dosen't stop there. Bosses's having a presence makes them memorable, but making the battle's unique makes them almost godlike. No, not every MGS boss has been unique. At least they've hahd something. Most of the BnB battles are so uninteresting that I try to rush through them. No the BnB sniper battle is not fun, so I just run up to her and shoot her. No I'm not impressed by this building falling apart in Act 3. Was that the gimmick for this one? I have no idea because all I do is shoot her. I guess the one changing into other things in Act 1 is neat. I'll never be surprised and it's kind of boring after the first, but ok. It still just comes down to me running around and shooting at her. The bosses aren't fun and they aren't memorable. I don't even remember what act 5's bnb did.

Solid Snake is a depressing aged piece of jerky instead of a wisecracking and angry aged piece of jerky
My big problem. Snake in MGS1 one goes from this down in out guy, with no resolve to a dude who has a reason for living. In MGS2 we see a completly sure of himself guy who is possibly the most inspiratinal character evrr. In MGS4 all we get is a sad sack who i wouldn't care if he died. You can argue that this is because he's facing his mortality straight in his face and of course he would be down. I don't buy it and that's not intersting to me. The Solid Snake I like is the one who was trying to make a better world for the next generation, the one that told raiden Grey Fox's credo, the one who kept fighting for his ideals. A dude who was super awesome in MGS2 because he already went though his arc in MGS1 where he felt he was nothing but a hired gun. No, he was fighting for his beliefs now and he was awesome. I wanted that Snake from MGS2. Except all we get is a sad sack Snake and it sucks. The constant reminding of how old and worn down he is not emotional. It's tired. It's unintersting. Old Snake from MGS2 would have constantly been fighting through the pain and not had his game wallow in self piety. Which is all that terrible Microwave scene does. It's an excericse in self-pitty and it makes me just dislike Snake all the more. Pretty much every scene in the game is "feel bad for Snake because he's old". It gets tiring after awhile and thats not what I saw happening to Snake after MGS2.

Naomi's character arc is fucking lame and dumb to the tenth degree
Made even worse by the cringe worthy Otocon sex stuff. Then the strange "ima rub your chest" thing with Vamp. Her character really sucks in MGS4. Then again, so does almost every returning character. Mei Ling is just cute girl fanservice. Meryel is just made into an annoying butch lady. The Campel and Rose thing is just strange. They took a lot of bite out of Eva when i guess actually she didn't disappear out of the series. I kind of wish none of these character's returned.

Humor is lacking and is a lot more forced
Johnny is the poster child for this. It's the same 5 year old level joke over and over. No that dosen't make him a fun character. No, the constant poop jokes at the wrong time make me dislike him immensely. Yet, he is kind of a major character.

Overly depressing and drab characterization
Yep. It's already a shame what they did to Snake. This is after Big Boss' game. Which is a tragedy and serious at times, yet they were still able to give him a fun personality. I'm not sure why Snake had to become a sad sack and it really seems to be because Kojima is a hack and had to write a new character arc for the character. "he's old so of course he's sad now". Never mind that the guy has made it his life's mission to put his life on the line just for his ideals. Raiden is also terrible. At the end of MGS2 he's also on the way to finding his reason to fight. Except I guess he did'nt and he became even more emo. People accuse Raiden of being lame in MGS2, but his drama in MGS4 is worse. He didn't go around saying emotionally contrived things like "JACK IS DEAD" and "I JUST DONT FEAR DEATH". Like making the character angsty and a ninja dosen't automatically make the character better. His drama with Rose and being apparently so sad that he gave up his humanity not only confuses me, it also makes me dislike him. This was not the path from MGS2. This was Kojima's thinking that everything needs to be dark and serious. See also MGS5.

- No mystery or intrigue when it comes to technology or what seems to be the supernatural
well no because the fans had to know everything and Kojima has to answer them. People in MGS just have powers. It's a thing. It didn't need to be explained. MGS is military fantasy. Answering them would'nt be satisfying and it's not when the answer is the catch all nanomacheines. Which just opens up the plothole of why aren't they using them in any situation where they clearly could help.

- No clear or recognizable themes in the story
Yep. I don't know what this game was about.

MGS1 was about Snake finding a resolve, a reason to fight. Contending with a villain who seemed to have a twisted resolve and an inferiority complex about the whole thing.

MGS2 is about manipulation and control. The Patriots are trying to control the new era of digital information. Raiden is being manipulated. The player himself is being manipulated. The villain is at least trying to fight this.

MGS3 is about loyalty at the core and its amazing.

I don't know what MGS4 is about other then being the end.

Yet these are not the only things that make MGS4 a disappointing game.

The entire Ocelot twist is stupid. It's like Kojima saw the reaction to the Boss's story in MGS3 and felt the need to copy it. So he took a character that was awesome as a villain and added a very flimsy twist that makes him this super self sacrificial hero. Even though it's now very stupid and makes no sense. You can say he laid the ground work in MGS3. Sure he idolizes Big Boss and that's a good element of his character, but he still works far better as a villain who just now has this amusing humanity to him. his actions now thanks to the twist are even stupider.

Not only that, but honestly MGS4 should have actually been the fight between Liquid and Snake. This series has been about the legacies of the boss fighting each other in the aftermath. Having Liquid actually be the villain would have been better thematically. I also already bought into the arm thing. MGS has powers and a crazy idea about how genes work. They also already gave a reason as to why this could be happening with Ocelot. He's got latent psychic powers thanks to him being the Sorrow's child. It already could make sense in MGS logic. It's far better then whatever actually happen.

The entire Patriots reveal is also unsatisfying. Making the entire MGS series actually an ideological battle between Big Boss and Zero is not what I call a good thing. Your support team from 3 were fun characters and now they are heinous villains. What? And what the heck did Zero have a stake in any of this? I guess Kojima wrote himself into a wall with the Patriots, but how about making them new characters? Not trashing old characters for no reason.

Beyond the story, it's the gameplay thats also terrible. MGS2 perfected MG-MGS's gameplay. MGS3 decides to do something new and takes you to the jungle and builds it's gameplay all around that setting. MGS4 was supposed to do this with the battlefield. No place to hide remember? Kojima dosen't and this is half assed and then dropped. The battlefield never really factors into the game. There's plenty of places to hide. About the only real thing that MGS4 does with it's stealth is make octocomo which fixes the menu complaints from MGS3. Cool, but everything else is lame. There's maybe one or two set pieces that do anything with the whole Battlefield setting. The assault on the Villa in act Two and act one's follow the convey. That's about it. The setting dosen't factor into the gameplay and no the one sided PMC trust thing dosen't count. You can only side with the rebels and you do it almost automatically. It might as well not even be in the game. it's just disappointing after seeing what MGS3 did with the jungle. Having this lively battlefield would have been awesome for a stealth game and MGS4 drops the ball. Then it runs away to act three where you just slowly follow someone. Awful on replays. Act 4 has annoying stealth against robots which is'nt fun. Act 5 has what one room of stealth and then you just run in a straight line? Not cool.

I mean I guess I can see why people like this game, but for me it's just a colossal disappointment.
 

Spinluck

Member
MGS3 was better, and I definitely disagree with this being one of best games last gen. But I still enjoyed it, the best part was fighting those hot chicks really.

The story overall was pretty silly.
 

Timeaisis

Member
So seeing how I wasn't here back in good 'ol 2008, how did MGS4 win GAF GOTY twice? Was there a recount or something?

I'm pro-MGS4 if that counts for anything.
 
Wow, i didn't expect THAT amount of hate, 6 years later. I guess it didn't grow up very well for many here, but imho it's probably one of the 2-3 best PS3 exclusives and one of the best games ever made. One of the last TRUE old-school games, and a real emotional rollercoaster.

I'm sorry, you're going to have to explain this. How in the hell is MGS4 one of the last TRUE old-school games? What does that even mean?
 
Fucking hell,

I swear I'll NEVER get tired of reading people's opinion on MGS4 (^___^)

For myself? Tried to replay it yet again 6 months back and couldn't continue past Ch3 as I know that's we're it more or less ceases to be a game. Oh and boy oh boy is most of the story unbelievably stupid. Not many games will illicit a sense of embaresent when I play them, but those Drebin Beauty and the Beast monologues (along with the characters themselves) easily manage to do it :(
 

peull

Member
I did some texture works for environments some years ago and i remember using octocamo on everything to see the texture work and how well(or not) snake blended in the environment. i remember doing this for hours lol
 
I did some texture works for environments some years ago and i remember using octocamo on everything to see the texture work and how well(or not) snake blended in the environment. i remember doing this for hours lol

That's because the octocamo is the only truly great part of this game
 
The most ridiculous bit...

Big Boss still being alive. It'd be like Darth Vader coming back in Episode VII. It pretty much told me that they can do whatever they want with the storyline no matter what had happened previously.

Crap.
 

Brandon F

Well congratulations! You got yourself caught!
So seeing how I wasn't here back in good 'ol 2008, how did MGS4 win GAF GOTY twice? Was there a recount or something?

I'm pro-MGS4 if that counts for anything.

Yea a couple years ago the forum re-did the voting after a surge of disagreement was met to see if mgs4 would still win.

Sadly the lunatics came out in full force and still voted it best 2008 game in 2011 or whatever year it happened.
 
Still love this game to bits really.

I should try and go back to replaying now that there are trophies lol.

Also, I actually enjoyed Act 3 because sneaking around like that just reminded me of a detective novel. The bonus being that your disguise was basically Snake wearing Gillan Seed's outfit from Snatcher. Loved hearing all the ambient sounds of the city through my headphones actually.
 
I'm still going through the MGS series for the first time, currently playing MGS3. The cutscenes are already really long in MGS1-3 and I keep hearing they're even longer in MGS4, so my question is: Does MGS4 have the ability to pause cutscenes? There was one time in MGS2 where I really wish I had such an option.
 

MattyG

Banned
I really loved 4 the first time I played it. I should go back and do another run through before TPP.
I bought the Legacy collection and the only one I can get through is Metal Gear Solid 1. The rest are awful, at least Ground Zero is playable.
zpjhojL.gif

Whachu talkin' 'bout? MGS3 is incredible.
 

nns3d

Member
I'm still going through the MGS series for the first time, currently playing MGS3. The cutscenes are already really long in MGS1-3 and I keep hearing they're even longer in MGS4, so my question is: Does MGS4 have the ability to pause cutscenes? There was one time in MGS2 where I really wish I had such an option.

Yes, you can pause during the cutscenes iirc.
 

TheXbox

Member
The plot has serious issues but let's be straight, the plot of MGS is 100% nonsense. MGS1, 2, and 4 are completely convoluted and insane. The proportion of gameplay to cutscene is roughly the same in all three, and so is the stupidity. I love the games for precisely these reasons, but people treat MGS4 like it's exceptionally stupid in the grand scheme of the franchise. I reject this. MGS3 is the real exception, and people still forget how fucking ridiculous that game could be.

MGS4 is a great game. None of it makes any sense and it certainly would have been better if the game ended
when Snake shoots himself
, but the vast majority of the absurdity in that game is in keeping with the franchise.
 

Raonak

Banned
Seriously, lol. I was very emotional, I can't be held accountable for my feelings!! Is anyone actually glad that the final scene with Big Boss was included?

ME! Ever since MGS3, I had a feeling we'd see him again. seeing that richard doyle - big boss in the credits, and the cutscene that followed blew my mind to oblivion. and the cqc hug. so much feels.
 
My only legitimate gripe with MGS4 was having to press fucking Triangle to hug walls. Stupid, stupid decision. And all those damn button prompts.

Otherwise I really like it.
 
I played through the whole series for the first time in release order in the last year and MGS4 Is by far my least favorite. I'd rather forget it exists.
 
I can't decide if this is something I should return to or not. I remember enjoying the experience when the game came out, but hindsight told me that a lot was wrong; I was just happy to be playing more Metal Gear. I'd love to play act 1 again, it's just that the cutscenes are making me nervous.
 

Mr. X

Member
#TeamMGS4sucks

Gameplay/controls were great, really shined in MGO2. Everything else was awful especially the boss fights.

Rex vs Ray and Solid vs Ocelot boss fights are fun but they are just a series of QTEs at the end of day and are dull compared to boss fights like Fatman, Sniper Wolf or The End, Psycho Mantis, etc.

Mt. Snakemore. Story went dumb.
 
I bought a PS3 for the sole purpose of playing MGS4 on my birthday, June 26 of the year 2008. I stayed up all night playing the game, and beat it around 9 AM on June 27th.

One of my fondest memories of any video game is reaching Act 4 around 5 AM.
When I returned to Shadow Moses, and The Best is Yet To Come began to play, and I went and grabbed a pistol from the back of the truck and saw the old Surveillance Camera, all of these complicated emotions welled up in me and my eyes teared up. It was a weirdly ecstatic moment.

Aside from that one incredible memory, my opinion on the game has mostly soured with time. I'm kind of at the point where I dislike the game, nowadays.

You really nailed my first experience of the game with this post, and it's precisely why I'm nervous to play through it a second time.
 

Joeki11a

Banned
I hate that Ryan guy that went to Bungie came into this game and messed up with Kojima into making this game seem like a crazy shooter.

At the end I had All these freaking weapons/gadgets that I never used,
All I needed was the Snake essential!

Story was cool and the ending amazing
but again to hell with Ryan pushing stupid shooter gameplay!, "trust me kojima americans will luv it". I saw my casual gaming brother using old snake like he was Rambo!, it was a damn shame!.
 

hateradio

The Most Dangerous Yes Man
I thought the game was decent, but I played most of it by crawling and using octocamo to blend everywhere. I don't even remember most of the plot since it was outrageous.
 

SugarDave

Member
Two or three memorable moments aside, I've come to view MGS4 as rather dull as well. It feels like it was made purely to appease people who needed closure after MGS2 and it just lacks any of the charisma of prior games.

MGS3 is the pinnacle of the series.
 

Murtrod

Member
Eastern Europe was the only shit part for me. Minus the cutscene with Snake beating all of
Eva's
guards, it just bored me to tears. And it had terrible AI patterns.

Other than that, I did love this game.

My first MGS. 3 is vastly superior and just beautiful, but this holds a special place in my heart.
 
Game is a great game...screw the haters. Sure it's cheesy and the plot is ridiculous. But that IS Metal Gear for you. You don't go in with expectations of things making sense. You just sit back and enjoy the cheesy awesomeness a la awesomely bad action flicks from the 80s.
 

facelike

Member
I absolutely love this game. I was at first surprised about the hate from this thread but with the accolades it received, the 10/10 over and over again, I'm sure expectations were extremely high and nothing can satisfy them. Either way, the game is not without it's faults and many of them have been noted by people here. But......this game is awesome.

The microwave part always gets me and pulls a bit at the heartstrings. I like how I can do each level like Commando or completely stealthily and it's fun. Old Snake is such a great character and I love how everyone reacts to him coughing, complaining and essentially, treats him like an old man. The game is serious at times but has a sense of humor.

All around a great game with a great look, deep story (if one cared for it) and fan fair for those of us who loved the others in he series. Not perfect but no game really is.

Thank you for this game, Kojima, thank you for this game.
 

Palpable

Member
At the end of MGS4, before the 'real' credits, I teared up... heavily. I mean, I seriously felt like I had lost someone in real life. Playing the series since 1998 and growing up with that character really hit me hard in MGS4 when
it's implied that he shot himself
. As those first credits rolled, my eyes shed manly tears.

big_boss_salute_by_reaper759-d4be3mf.png
 

Dipz

Banned
MGS4 is to the Metal Gear series what End of Evangelion is to the Neon Genesis Evangelion series.

But I liked EoE, and also liked MGS4, so ehh.
 

Gun Animal

Member
It will come back as the octobox portable cloaking device.

Peace Walker had the mechanical equivalent of Octocamo, which was available in the post-game but before Active Stealth Camo which was called the Stealth Mat. Basically, it made you invisible when pressed against a wall or lying prone.

I absolutely expect the Stealth Mat (and later Stealth Camo) to make an appearance in MGSV, but not Octocamo because it would take a lot of extra effort to make it work. For the amount of effort integrating Octocamo (in other words, making a separate player skin for every single texture that you can lie on or press up against in the entire game...) they'd want to make it part of the main campaign.

I AM looking forward to seeing Venom Snake's inevitable late-game sneaking suit, however.
 

KOMANI

KOMANI
I love the game mechanics of mgs4. It's only fault is that it tries to make sense of mgs 2 and close the series. I wish I could prone roll the same way in mgs 5. I wish I could side jump and choke someone while on their back.
 

MormaPope

Banned
Game is a great game...screw the haters. Sure it's cheesy and the plot is ridiculous. But that IS Metal Gear for you. You don't go in with expectations of things making sense. You just sit back and enjoy the cheesy awesomeness a la awesomely bad action flicks from the 80s.

MGS4 has muted themes and a flat story. Plenty of MGS fans don't turn their brains off while playing, analyzing a MGS narrative should be satisfying, there should be valid and valuable interpretations based on the story and what you did as the player.

MGS1 is about disregarding your own biological history, what makes you up as a person, and to live a life you think is worth living, no matter who you are or what you came from. A cold blooded dog of war that enjoys the combat and horrors of war can choose to live a happy life. Solid Snake isn't bound by his own genetics, he isn't bound to war because of who he was cloned from.

MGS2 is about context in the digital age, where the amount of information is massive, and the time needed to access information is miniscule. One person has the power to ruin the world, as small as that chance may be. Context that is correct or valuable is lost due to many reasons. The internet, and the digital age in general, could skew evolution that could not be beneficial for the human race.

It's not a coincidence that the Patriots AI is looking out for American interests. The AI conversation at the end of MGS2 is both a big fuck you to how the United States is run, along with putting some of the blame on the people, the citizens. MGS2 as a package is sheer brilliance.

MGS3 is about loyalty and how hopeless loyalty is. Sacrificing yourself and the ones you love for the betterment of your own country is a empty act in the grand scheme of things. Societies change, people change, loyalty and honor don't, you ride the train until that train gets obliterated.

I have no idea what MGS4's themes or main motif is. War is terrible? War + weapon production = profit? The bad guy was actually the good guy that did bad things constantly?
 
i know it's cool to rag on MGS4 these days but as an almost life long mgs fan i jizzed myself when i played the game.

why are these blog style threads allowed, by the way?
 

Gun Animal

Member
I have no idea what MGS4's themes or main motif is. War is terrible? War + weapon production = profit? The bad guy was actually the good guy that did bad things constantly?

Very nice bite-sized deconstruction of the themes and motifs of the original 'Solid' trilogy, many people have written pages and pages of articles trying to articulate some of the concepts you just described in a few tweet-sized paragraphs. Kudos.

As far as greater meaning in Guns of the Patriots, if you're willing to do a little reading, let me know if you get any insight out of Mr. Wolfe's MGS4: Sold Out.
 

elCroux

Banned
This is presented as if it is a statement of actual facts, when in fact it is nothing but your own simple opinion.

People should stop presenting their opinions as if they are facts...

/QUOTE]
Does he have to add an imo after everything? No one praising the game has done that. It's pretty understood that it's his opinion.


and in my opinion it's the right opinion.

It's a pretty bad game. Kind of a soul crushing disappointment for me. I remember watching every trailer with so much excitment and getting a PS3 right when MGS4 came out. I gut the MGS4 bundle as my Graduation Gift. i then locked myself into my room to sit down and experince what would be the end of my favortie gaming series ever. The series that got my into games.

It did'nt hit me at first. I beat the game and thought to myself "that was ok right?"

It wasn't it was probably the most disappointing game of all time.


One of the most obvious flaws is the fact that the bosses in the game are terrible. How do you go from the bossess in MGS1-3 to these? While sure the Cobras don't have much to do in the story as Foxhound or SoL, every MGS boss has had a prescene in the series. Something that makes them a bit enduring and memorable. Some aspect of character. I don't remember a single thing about the Beauty and the Beast Corp. Thier names, what they were about, nothing. I can remember certain lines Fatman said or Sniper Wolf's mannerisms. There was nothing enduring about the BnBs. Dosen't help that thier entire story was told through Drebin's phone calls that all amount to "war was bad and she had a hard life". Talk about lazy and pathetic.

Yet it dosen't stop there. Bosses's having a presence makes them memorable, but making the battle's unique makes them almost godlike. No, not every MGS boss has been unique. At least they've hahd something. Most of the BnB battles are so uninteresting that I try to rush through them. No the BnB sniper battle is not fun, so I just run up to her and shoot her. No I'm not impressed by this building falling apart in Act 3. Was that the gimmick for this one? I have no idea because all I do is shoot her. I guess the one changing into other things in Act 1 is neat. I'll never be surprised and it's kind of boring after the first, but ok. It still just comes down to me running around and shooting at her. The bosses aren't fun and they aren't memorable. I don't even remember what act 5's bnb did.

My big problem. Snake in MGS1 one goes from this down in out guy, with no resolve to a dude who has a reason for living. In MGS2 we see a completly sure of himself guy who is possibly the most inspiratinal character evrr. In MGS4 all we get is a sad sack who i wouldn't care if he died. You can argue that this is because he's facing his mortality straight in his face and of course he would be down. I don't buy it and that's not intersting to me. The Solid Snake I like is the one who was trying to make a better world for the next generation, the one that told raiden Grey Fox's credo, the one who kept fighting for his ideals. A dude who was super awesome in MGS2 because he already went though his arc in MGS1 where he felt he was nothing but a hired gun. No, he was fighting for his beliefs now and he was awesome. I wanted that Snake from MGS2. Except all we get is a sad sack Snake and it sucks. The constant reminding of how old and worn down he is not emotional. It's tired. It's unintersting. Old Snake from MGS2 would have constantly been fighting through the pain and not had his game wallow in self piety. Which is all that terrible Microwave scene does. It's an excericse in self-pitty and it makes me just dislike Snake all the more. Pretty much every scene in the game is "feel bad for Snake because he's old". It gets tiring after awhile and thats not what I saw happening to Snake after MGS2.

Made even worse by the cringe worthy Otocon sex stuff. Then the strange "ima rub your chest" thing with Vamp. Her character really sucks in MGS4. Then again, so does almost every returning character. Mei Ling is just cute girl fanservice. Meryel is just made into an annoying butch lady. The Campel and Rose thing is just strange. They took a lot of bite out of Eva when i guess actually she didn't disappear out of the series. I kind of wish none of these character's returned.

Johnny is the poster child for this. It's the same 5 year old level joke over and over. No that dosen't make him a fun character. No, the constant poop jokes at the wrong time make me dislike him immensely. Yet, he is kind of a major character.

Yep. It's already a shame what they did to Snake. This is after Big Boss' game. Which is a tragedy and serious at times, yet they were still able to give him a fun personality. I'm not sure why Snake had to become a sad sack and it really seems to be because Kojima is a hack and had to write a new character arc for the character. "he's old so of course he's sad now". Never mind that the guy has made it his life's mission to put his life on the line just for his ideals. Raiden is also terrible. At the end of MGS2 he's also on the way to finding his reason to fight. Except I guess he did'nt and he became even more emo. People accuse Raiden of being lame in MGS2, but his drama in MGS4 is worse. He didn't go around saying emotionally contrived things like "JACK IS DEAD" and "I JUST DONT FEAR DEATH". Like making the character angsty and a ninja dosen't automatically make the character better. His drama with Rose and being apparently so sad that he gave up his humanity not only confuses me, it also makes me dislike him. This was not the path from MGS2. This was Kojima's thinking that everything needs to be dark and serious. See also MGS5.

well no because the fans had to know everything and Kojima has to answer them. People in MGS just have powers. It's a thing. It didn't need to be explained. MGS is military fantasy. Answering them would'nt be satisfying and it's not when the answer is the catch all nanomacheines. Which just opens up the plothole of why aren't they using them in any situation where they clearly could help.


Yep. I don't know what this game was about.

MGS1 was about Snake finding a resolve, a reason to fight. Contending with a villain who seemed to have a twisted resolve and an inferiority complex about the whole thing.

MGS2 is about manipulation and control. The Patriots are trying to control the new era of digital information. Raiden is being manipulated. The player himself is being manipulated. The villain is at least trying to fight this.

MGS3 is about loyalty at the core and its amazing.

I don't know what MGS4 is about other then being the end.

Yet these are not the only things that make MGS4 a disappointing game.

The entire Ocelot twist is stupid. It's like Kojima saw the reaction to the Boss's story in MGS3 and felt the need to copy it. So he took a character that was awesome as a villain and added a very flimsy twist that makes him this super self sacrificial hero. Even though it's now very stupid and makes no sense. You can say he laid the ground work in MGS3. Sure he idolizes Big Boss and that's a good element of his character, but he still works far better as a villain who just now has this amusing humanity to him. his actions now thanks to the twist are even stupider.

Not only that, but honestly MGS4 should have actually been the fight between Liquid and Snake. This series has been about the legacies of the boss fighting each other in the aftermath. Having Liquid actually be the villain would have been better thematically. I also already bought into the arm thing. MGS has powers and a crazy idea about how genes work. They also already gave a reason as to why this could be happening with Ocelot. He's got latent psychic powers thanks to him being the Sorrow's child. It already could make sense in MGS logic. It's far better then whatever actually happen.

The entire Patriots reveal is also unsatisfying. Making the entire MGS series actually an ideological battle between Big Boss and Zero is not what I call a good thing. Your support team from 3 were fun characters and now they are heinous villains. What? And what the heck did Zero have a stake in any of this? I guess Kojima wrote himself into a wall with the Patriots, but how about making them new characters? Not trashing old characters for no reason.

Beyond the story, it's the gameplay thats also terrible. MGS2 perfected MG-MGS's gameplay. MGS3 decides to do something new and takes you to the jungle and builds it's gameplay all around that setting. MGS4 was supposed to do this with the battlefield. No place to hide remember? Kojima dosen't and this is half assed and then dropped. The battlefield never really factors into the game. There's plenty of places to hide. About the only real thing that MGS4 does with it's stealth is make octocomo which fixes the menu complaints from MGS3. Cool, but everything else is lame. There's maybe one or two set pieces that do anything with the whole Battlefield setting. The assault on the Villa in act Two and act one's follow the convey. That's about it. The setting dosen't factor into the gameplay and no the one sided PMC trust thing dosen't count. You can only side with the rebels and you do it almost automatically. It might as well not even be in the game. it's just disappointing after seeing what MGS3 did with the jungle. Having this lively battlefield would have been awesome for a stealth game and MGS4 drops the ball. Then it runs away to act three where you just slowly follow someone. Awful on replays. Act 4 has annoying stealth against robots which is'nt fun. Act 5 has what one room of stealth and then you just run in a straight line? Not cool.

I mean I guess I can see why people like this game, but for me it's just a colossal disappointment.

Love this.

Most disappointing game I've ever played.

I'll also add, that it's a strangely ugly game.

The character models lost a lot of their charm. Silhouettes that were once chiselled and strong due to a low poly count, became softer and doughy.

For example, Ocelots face went from having a piercing, even slightly rakish appearance with a full bodied moustache, to being long and horse-like, with a flat moustache texture above his lips and a mouth that looked like he was yawning when it opened.

The whole game was muddier than it should have been, both in palette and texture usage. The areas where all much too small for a PS3 game, and the gameplay animation /blending tech was ugly and overly simple, completely at odd with the cutscene animation quality.
 

Neff

Member
I'm not a particularly big MGS fan, meaning I can take or leave volatile, fanbase-dividing canon at a whim, but I loved this game.

Amazing visuals, amazing stealth/shooter gameplay, fantastic bosses, Snatcher fanservice, Kojima definitively busting the fourth wall by making us feel older than shit at Shadow Moses, and an epic denouement- what's not to love?
 
MGS4 has muted themes and a flat story. Plenty of MGS fans don't turn their brains off while playing, analyzing a MGS narrative should be satisfying, there should be valid and valuable interpretations based on the story and what you did as the player.

MGS1 is about disregarding your own biological history, what makes you up as a person, and to live a life you think is worth living, no matter who you are or what you came from. A cold blooded dog of war that enjoys the combat and horrors of war can choose to live a happy life. Solid Snake isn't bound by his own genetics, he isn't bound to war because of who he was cloned from.

MGS2 is about context in the digital age, where the amount of information is massive, and the time needed to access information is miniscule. One person has the power to ruin the world, as small as that chance may be. Context that is correct or valuable is lost due to many reasons. The internet, and the digital age in general, could skew evolution that could not be beneficial for the human race.

It's not a coincidence that the Patriots AI is looking out for American interests. The AI conversation at the end of MGS2 is both a big fuck you to how the United States is run, along with putting some of the blame on the people, the citizens. MGS2 as a package is sheer brilliance.

MGS3 is about loyalty and how hopeless loyalty is. Sacrificing yourself and the ones you love for the betterment of your own country is a empty act in the grand scheme of things. Societies change, people change, loyalty and honor don't, you ride the train until that train gets obliterated.

I have no idea what MGS4's themes or main motif is. War is terrible? War + weapon production = profit? The bad guy was actually the good guy that did bad things constantly?


Maybe to add to your prognosis on the mainline series, yet not nearly as succinct as yours, here's how I see MGS4.

MGS4's biggest theme isn't how bad war is, but the nature of war (and of the world) changing with the almost inevitable over-reliance on technology. Fiction sometimes goes into how easy war can be started and fought when it's less about pulling a trigger and more about pressing a button. The technological ease behind war can make it a lot easier to stomach; an abundance of unmanned vehicles and nanomachine enhancements to keep soldiers in combat longer and control them. What's worth protesting in that kind of war, where everything runs so efficiently? There may be nothing worth learning to prevent the next war, as those propagating the fighting aren't nations invested in themselves, but technology itself in the A.I.s.

And while nuclear deterrence is a scary enough thought, a worldwide ceasefire and digital restriction control of most or all military forces sounds much worse. Really one of the scariest examples of "all your eggs in one basket."

MGS2 is such a revelation to us now because we're seeing how far digital information has gone, as well as MGS1 with discussions on cloning and DNA, and MGS3 with historically times changing but some people not. I would hope we're never able to relate to a world like MGS4, even though it always feels like it can go that route.

I'd almost want to say there's a theme in the generational difference between the Snake Eater crew and the Shadow Moses/Big Shell crew. Big Boss and co. were all lauded as heroes of their era and ended up in pretty significant positions, while Solid Snake and co. as the Colonel put it "were put out to pasture" after their missions (careers ended prematurely or ruined, or even branded terrorists) mainly because the heroes weren't supposed to survive them. The arguments about environmentalism, the new generation having to deal with/clean-up their predecessors messes, fits to me.

Yeah, I'd say these are more muted themes by comparison, but not any less impacting for the game and what it can say about our society.
 
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