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[Screaming Meat]

I have no idea what MGS4's themes or main motif is. War is terrible? War + weapon production = profit? The bad guy was actually the good guy that did bad things constantly?

I thought MGS4 was meant to be about breaking cycles. From my time with the game, it seemed to me like pretty much every character's primary motivation was to get out of the endless cycles that either their sense of duty or the will of others had imposed on them. I dare say that Kojima himself probably felt the same thing with the series.

In any case, I thought it was rather poignant on the whole, when it wasn’t making huge missteps (like the insensitive handling of the BB Corps or fucking Mount Snakemore).

 

[Palpable]

Very nice bite-sized deconstruction of the themes and motifs of the original 'Solid' trilogy, many people have written pages and pages of articles trying to articulate some of the concepts you just described in a few tweet-sized paragraphs. Kudos.

As far as greater meaning in Guns of the Patriots, if you're willing to do a little reading, let me know if you get any insight out of Mr. Wolfe's MGS4: Sold Out.

That's a brilliant article so far. I've read up to page 10 as of now.

 

[Screaming Meat]

That's a brilliant article so far. I've read up to page 10 as of now.

MetaGearSolid's VR Theory reading of MGS2 is quite simply superb. That should be your next stop. It's the only VR Theory revolving around a Metal Gear game that actually makes sense thematically. Not too convinced by the rest of his articles though.

 

[Asbear]

- Worst boss fights in the series (by a large margin)
- Least interesting bosses
- Worst pacing when it comes to gameplay and cutscenes
- Solid Snake is a depressing aged piece of jerky instead of a wisecracking and angry aged piece of jerky
- Naomi's character arc is fucking lame and dumb to the tenth degree
- Humor is lacking and is a lot more forced
- Overly depressing and drab characterization
- No mystery or intrigue when it comes to technology or what seems to be the supernatural
- Raiden's character development was a lame gray fox attempt
- Vamp's arc is just as lame as Naomi's
- The writing overall feels flat and drawn out to the point of not caring about the mythos
- Drebin and his diaper monkey, I mean its a monkey with a diaper
- Mount Snakemore, jesus christ
- Raiden's breakdancing and mouth combat
- No clear or recognizable themes in the story

Off the top of my head.

I disagree with some of these. I never play MGS because I like the story. In fact, I don't care about it. I deliberately bought MGS4 for laughs and boy was it a good piece of entertainment. The humor itself is actually quite funny, like Akiba shitting in a barrel and then it turns out it was actually important to the plot xD

But mainly I keep laughing at the dorkyness of the character interactions or the campyness the series has. When you take an inheritently japanese narrative and mix it with western setting and inspiration you get something that's really unique and weird at the same time. I simply love it, and it still cracks me up just at the smallest details during cutscenes.

 

[lifa-cobex]

I have a strong love/ hate relationship with this game.

Epic long cutscenes. The one time I was glad I smoked during a game.

Kojima bottled it at the end. Common, we all know Snake was meant to blow his head off at the end. Or even better, Big Boss takes him out.

Psycho Mantis!!!! for no reason.

The stalking mission in England. Fuck.

Why does liquid-ocelot sound like Ocelot but in the others sound like Liquid?

Spoiler

I know the reasons for it but it still sucks.

"Johnny your a fucking idiot and you shit yourself but now I want your babies while we are gonna be murdereddeathkilled!"

But even with all this.......
It's just such an awesome game
I miss MGO

 

[MormaPope]

Maybe to add to your prognosis on the mainline series, yet not nearly as succinct as yours, here's how I see MGS4.

MGS4's biggest theme isn't how bad war is, but the nature of war (and of the world) changing with the almost inevitable over-reliance on technology. Fiction sometimes goes into how easy war can be started and fought when it's less about pulling a trigger and more about pressing a button. The technological ease behind war can make it a lot easier to stomach; an abundance of unmanned vehicles and nanomachine enhancements to keep soldiers in combat longer and control them. What's worth protesting in that kind of war, where everything runs so efficiently? There may be nothing worth learning to prevent the next war, as those propagating the fighting aren't nations invested in themselves, but technology itself in the A.I.s.

And while nuclear deterrence is a scary enough thought, a worldwide ceasefire and digital restriction control of most or all military forces sounds much worse. Really one of the scariest examples of "all your eggs in one basket."

MGS2 is such a revelation to us now because we're seeing how far digital information has gone, as well as MGS1 with discussions on cloning and DNA, and MGS3 with historically times changing but some people not. I would hope we're never able to relate to a world like MGS4, even though it always feels like it can go that route.

I'd almost want to say there's a theme in the generational difference between the Snake Eater crew and the Shadow Moses/Big Shell crew. Big Boss and co. were all lauded as heroes of their era and ended up in pretty significant positions, while Solid Snake and co. as the Colonel put it "were put out to pasture" after their missions (careers ended prematurely or ruined, or even branded terrorists) mainly because the heroes weren't supposed to survive them. The arguments about environmentalism, the new generation having to deal with/clean-up their predecessors messes, fits to me.

Yeah, I'd say these are more muted themes by comparison, but not any less impacting for the game and what it can say about our society.

See, to me technology in the MGS series has always been the extension of characterization. Naomi helps create FOXDIE due to her anger and resentment of Solid Snake. FOXDIE was important in MGS1 because of who was involved, I didn't worry about the disease or virus itself, I never pondered if a MGS villain/character acquired it what would they do with it.

All the stuff regarding genes, gene therapy, cloning, all felt relevant because of Solid Snake's story and past. The guards during the Shadow Moses takeover all had gene therapy to be closer to Big Boss genetically, and while that alone is neat, it has more meaning when you take into consideration Big Boss's clone son is killing and defeating them at every turn.

Digital context and context in general made Raiden a helpless tool of the Patriots in MGS2, hell, everyone played a role without knowing it. The questions raised about technology back then by MGS2 felt relevant to the future, and they ended up staying relevant.

In MGS2 the Patriots have already won, and they continued to win. The characters in the game, along with the player, are put in a position where the amount of influence they have with technology is questionable at the very least. The lines are so blurred that Solid Snake tells Raiden to create his own interpretations, that personal context is all you have on this planet.

Technology in MGS3 took a backseat, the space race and nuclear testing were important details later on. Characterization was built on character interactions through and through.

MGS4 relied on technology being the backbone of characterization way too much. Pretty ironic actually, like you said MGS4 is about the over reliance of technology.

I thought MGS4 was meant to be about breaking cycles. From my time with the game, it seemed to me like pretty much every character's primary motivation was to get out of the endless cycles that either their sense of duty or the will of others had imposed on them. I dare say that Kojima himself probably felt the same thing with the series.

In any case, I thought it was rather poignant on the whole, when it wasn’t making huge missteps (like the insensitive handling of the BB Corps or fucking Mount Snakemore).

I'd say I would agree if characters were struggling to not be sucked into a cycle. It feels like most characters got suited up for combat for very odd and selfish reasons. Didn't Vamp want to die or something? Why does he need Raiden to do that for him? Raiden never embraced Jack the Ripper in MGS4, he never enjoyed combat, he never got a thrill, he wallowed around most of the time. Raiden killing because he likes it would be more harrowing.

MGS4 would've benefited from a new cast altogether minus Solid Snake, Otacon, and the colonel. Actually the surviving MGS1 cast minus Meryl and Johnny should've been the main characters of MGS4. Solid Snake having his old codec team for one last mission, Otacon helping Solid Snake on site during missions. The bosses for the game should've been something outlandishly awesome. A Genome soldier unit that amounts to being perfect recreations of each of Snake would've hit all the nostalgia notes perfectly.

Naked - Close quarters combat (rushes the player, devastating hand to hand damage, mimics The Boss)
Solid - Sneaking and stealth (Stays away and flanks the player, lays traps, mimics Vulcan Raven)
Liquid - Marksman and quick on his feet (Fast moving sniper, constantly darts around, mimics Sniper Wolf and The End)
Solidus - Flexible, spider like solider (Can run and crawl on walls, ceilings, mimics The Fear)

 

[Despera]

GAF's GoTY 2008 winner. Not just once, but twice!

Sure MGS1-3 are better games, but it's still a great entry.

 

[Gun Animal]

I disagree with some of these. I never play MGS because I like the story. In fact, I don't care about it. I deliberately bought MGS4 for laughs and boy was it a good piece of entertainment. The humor itself is actually quite funny, like Akiba shitting in a barrel and then it turns out it was actually important to the plot xD

But mainly I keep laughing at the dorkyness of the character interactions or the campyness the series has. When you take an inheritently japanese narrative and mix it with western setting and inspiration you get something that's really unique and weird at the same time. I simply love it, and it still cracks me up just at the smallest details during cutscenes.

I nearly had a kneejerk angry reaction, but honestly you're mostly right. A big part of the charm of MGS is the schizophrenic tone and cultural anachronism---your suspension of disbelief and your tolerance of psuedo-engrish has to be the size of Arsenal Gear to take these games seriously. The demographic for people who can truly appreciate MGS for what it's worth is a venn-diagram between People Who Can Take John Carpenter Films as Serious Socio-Political Commentary and People Who Started Watching Poorly Translated Anime at Such a Young Age That They've Built Up a Psychological Filter for Japanese Weirdness. That's a really small demographic.

 

[valkyre]

What, does he need to start every sentence with "In my opinion..."?

Its obvious those were his views on the game which are subjective by nature.

It doesn't read as presenting fact to me, just opinions jotted down in point form. Did you want IMO written in front of all those? Seems unnecessary when it comes across clear enough as it is.

Are you honestly trolling now? Do you honestly think that I am suggesting putting before every single thing someone says "IMO"??

Really?

Because I would find it simpler to just refer to your post once as an opinion, and it would be enough, but I guess that this, clearly is for some, a very daunting task.

And yes his post is presented as if it is a factual evidence of complaints

Would you like to explain your opinions, or just say that you disagree and contribute nothing?

This is how every MGS4 thread goes; people tear the game apart with very reasonable complaints, and the defence force offers little more than "i was not bothered by all the flaws" and appeals to popularity.

And this how every "stop stating your opinion as fact" goes, with the "contribute" button.

So I will contribute, and I will do the unfathomable thing of saying that in MY OPINION I disagree with a lot of his complaints:

- Worst boss fights in the series (by a large margin)

Disagree! MGS4 did not have the worst boss fights in a MGS game, that title for me goes to MGS2 and PW and PO... I enjoyed immensely the Crying Wolf, Raven and Octopus fights (hated the Mantis one) as well as the Ray vs Rex battle and the final bout between Snake and Ocelot. And I cant even imagine those who criticize Snake vs Ocelot fights and yet praise the Liquid vs Snake final fight in MGS.... talk about double standards...

- Least interesting bosses

Kind of agreed but then again, PW takes the title for this.

- Worst Pacing

The game had the most gameplay variety of any other MGS game up to that date. Sure cutscenes were long but people tend to forget MGS and especially MGS2 that had sections where you played for 5 seconds and then you had a forced codec call, and the you open a door and then another forced codec call...

double standards yet again.

- Solid Snake is a depressing aged piece of jerky instead of a wisecracking and angry aged piece of jerky

Hmm ok, this more than anything clearly shows that you probably dont follow/care much on MGS history and Solid Snake's portrayal... but from these comments it looks like you wanted Solid Snake to become Big Boss... when in fact it is because Solid Snake is a depressing aged piece of jerky that made the DIFFERENCE between him and Big Boss and thats what the whole point of MGS4 was. Big Boss was angry and because of this he FAILED to understand The Boss's idea. Solid Snake without even ever meeting The Boss was more true to her interpretation than any other. And that is finally realized by Big Boss himself at the end of MGS4. It was Solid Snake, the "inferior" clone, who was the true heir of the Boss's will. Yes because he is a depressed sack of jerky and not an angry fool like BB.

- Naomi's character arc is fucking lame and dumb to the tenth degree

What a generalized statement... I am surprised that I have to contribute my opinion when generalized complaints like "fucking lame" go by unnoticed.

- Humor is lacking and is a lot more forced

Because MGS3 where BB appears like he has the equivalent IQ of Peter from Family Guy, was pure gold comedy and not forced... or MGS2 had us laughing out loud by the exquisite humor quality it had, with a Fat Guy on roller skates placing bombs, and Raiden walking Naked in Arsenal Gear with areas named after the human colon... come on now...

- Overly depressing and drab characterization

Kind of agree to a degree. Drama was overdone in certain parts. But in others it was totally justifiable. And nicely done.

- No mystery or intrigue when it comes to technology or what seems to be the supernatural

???? Because all MGS questioned thoroughly and realistically the supernatural?

- Raiden's character development was a lame gray fox attempt

As was Raiden's character in MGS2 a lame Solid Snake attempt and so... so many other examples really...

- Vamp's arc is just as lame as Naomi's

Ok. Perfect explanation. I guess I have to explain.

- The writing overall feels flat and drawn out to the point of not caring about the mythos

It depends. The Whole Jhonny Meryl and Drebin thing is ugly I agree. But everything revolving around EVA, Big Boss, Brothers and Patriots is nothing but flat or drwan out.

- Drebin and his diaper monkey, I mean its a monkey with a diaper

Agreed.

- Mount Snakemore, jesus christ

Agreed.

- Raiden's breakdancing and mouth combat

Agreed, but then again... Fat guy on Roller skates placing bombs....

- No clear or recognizable themes in the story

Errr what? I dont even have to explain this... the themes are pretty hard to miss, i cant even understand why someone would question something like this.

So there it is my personnal contribution.

 

[MormaPope]

And yes his post is presented as if it is a factual list of complaints

No it wasn't, don't know why you keep saying this.

Overreaction much? MGS4 did not have the worst boss fights in a MGS game, that title for me goes to MGS2 and PW... I enjoyed immensely the Crying Wolf, Raven and Octopus fights (hated the Mantis one) as well as the Ray vs Rex battle and the final bout between Snake and Ocelot. And I cant even imagine those who criticize Snake vs Ocelot fights and yet praise the Liquid vs Snake final fight in MGS.... talk about double standards...

Saying MGS2 has the worst boss fights is pretty damn silly. Fighting with Olga on Extreme or European Extreme is intense as fuck. One hit kill on European Extreme, 1-2 hit kill on Extreme. It feels like a real firefight, and you're stuck with a tranq gun, you don't have the advantage, you must have excellent reflexes, excellent memory for where to pre-aim, and excellent timing to hit Olga right at the exact moment. The fight is fun on normal difficulty, but easy as hell, just like every other MGS boss fight on medium difficulty.

The Fatman fight is pretty damn similar to the Ocelot boss fight in MGS1 when it comes to the mechanics and techniques used. You must run and shoot to get the opportunity to damage him, not mention the chasing involved. If you dislike this bossfight, you pretty much dislike the Ocelot fight from MGS1.

The Fortune fight is stressful on higher difficulties, cause she shoots more, more stuff falls and breaks around you, and you die in 1-2 hits. Fun game of keep-a-way.

The Harrier fight is leagues better than the helicopter fight from MGS1. Tons of more attacks and attack patterns with the harrier, its a lot faster, you have to hide and dodge attacks in a number of ways, it'll kick in your shit. The helicopter fight in MGS1 is pretty damn slow and tame in comparison.

The Vamp fight is pretty stressful, it ranges from slow and methodical to fast and chaotic. Dodging his attacks requires attention and memory skills, you can also shot his projectiles, at the cost of wasting ammo.

The Metal Gear Ray fight is probably the hardest boss fight in the entire series on its highest difficulty. You have to be play perfectly for 15-25 minutes, you fuck up once, sorry. Tons of tension and tons of effort required by the player.

The Solidus fight is personal like the liquid fight, pretty simple pretty fun.

Now, there's a pattern here. MGS2 requires the player to remember things, patterns, attacks, attack patterns, what they can counter something with, how to move, where to move. Guess how all the Beauty and the Best bosses are beaten? You fucking shoot them until they die. They shoot a bunch of shit at you, you hide behind something, and then unload on them. Very few attack patterns, very few attacks, incredibly simple design that doesn't require the player to bust their ass at all on the highest difficulty.

MGS4 on Extreme is the easiest/tied with Snake Eater when it comes to difficulty. MGS2 takes huge balls to beat it on European Extreme, and gigantic balls to beat it getting the Big Boss rank. Seriously, saying MGS2 has the worst bosses is like admitting you only played MGS2 on medium a couple of times and called it a day. When it comes to well designed boss encounters, MGS2 mops the floor with MGS4. Every boss in MGS2 on european Extreme is a 1-2 hit kill.

MGS2 on higher difficulties leads to satisfying victories. MGS4 on its highest difficulty means you play the same but a bit better. Play MGS2 on something other than medium and get back to me.

The game had the most gameplay variety of any other MGS4 up to that date. Sure cutscenes were long but people tend to forget MGS and especially MGS2 that had sections where you played for 5 seconds and then you had a forced codec call, and the you open a door and then another forced codec call...

double standards yet again.

Never said MGS2 doesn't have pacing issues, every MGS has pacing issues. The pacing in MGS4 is abysmal. Sorry, but 5 minutes of gameplay after a cutscene that lasted 45 minutes too long isn't good pacing. Also, thanks for bringing up MGS2 again. When it comes to area design, overall design and enemy AI, MGS2 is a lot more challenging and fun to mess around with than MGS4. Specific limb damage, smarter enemies, areas designed for very specific tricks. MGS4 isn't bad in the gameplay department, but variety doesn't always mean quality.

Hmm ok, this more than anything clearly shows that you probably dont follow/care much on MGS history and Solid Snake's portrayal... but from these comments it looks like you wanted Solid Snake to become Big Boss... when in fact it is because Solid Snake is a depressing aged piece of jerky that made the DIFFERENCE between him and Big Boss and thats what the whole point of MGS4 was. Big Boss was angry and because of this he FAILED to understand The Boss's idea. Solid Snake without even ever meeting The Boss was more true to her interpretation than any other. And that is finally realized by Big Boss himself at the end of MGS4. It was Solid Snake, the "inferior" clone, who was the true heir of the Boss's will. Yes because he is a depressed sack of jerky and not an angry fool like BB.

Da fuck are you talking about. Solid Snake in MGS1 is cold hearted and gets pissed at the Colonel constantly for keeping him out of the loop. Angry doesn't mean start my own nation of mercenaries and start killing dudes. Solid Snake shoud've been zestier, more energetic when it came to his speech and what he said. Solid Snake is a smartass, hes a joker and a smoker, Solid Snake in MGS4 was a dude that craved naps.

Solid Snake should've been angry that this is the fate he received. Instead of being a apathetic and boring dude.

What a generalized statement... I am surprised that I have to contribute my opinion when generalized complaints like "fucking lame" go by unnoticed.

It was fucking lame. It was really fucking lame. You didn't even counter that, so I guess you sorta agree.

Because MGS3 where BB appears like he has the equivalent IQ of Peter from Family Guy, was pure gold comedy and not forced... or MGS2 had us laughing out loud by the exquisite humor quality it had, with a Fat Guy on roller skates placing bombs, and Raiden walking Naked in Arsenal Gear with areas named after the human colon... come on now...

You know that robust Codec team from MGS4? Otacon? Wow, what an awesome codec team full of interesting and fun conversations. Raiden tripping on bird shit is funnier than anything in MGS4. Raiden getting pissed on and then the Colonel and Rose laughing at him is funny. Snake masturbating to a poster in a locker is funny, tapping on that poster's vagina is funny. Where were these moments in MGS4?

Shit, where were the easter eggs? MGS4 has like 10% of the easter eggs that MGS2 and MGS3 have. Don't understand your comment about Big Boss in MGS3.

As was Raiden's character in MGS2 a lame Solid Snake attempt and so... so many other examples really...

Don't think you know what a character arc is. Also Raiden is his own character in MGS2, as much as MGS2 haters want to think otherwise. Because of the MGS2 haters we got Neo Shit Fox 2.0 in MGS4.

It depends. The Whole Jhonny Meryl and Drebin thing is ugly I agree. But everything revolving around EVA, Big Boss, Brothers and Patriots is nothing but flat or drwan out.

Yeah, that other stuff was round and fucked up. EVA coming back the way she did was completely unnecessary. Big Boss coming back the way he did was completely unnecessary. The Patriots amounted to being a really awesome and mysterious entity in past games, in MGS4 the Patriots amounted to Zero doing something Zero wouldn't do.

Errr what? I dont even have to explain this... the themes are pretty hard to miss, i cant even understand why someone would question something like this.

Because MGS4 is a bloated mess.

 

[Screaming Meat]

I'd say I would agree if characters were struggling to not be sucked into a cycle. It feels like most characters got suited up for combat for very odd and selfish reasons. Didn't Vamp want to die or something? Why does he need Raiden to do that for him? Raiden never embraced Jack the Ripper in MGS4, he never enjoyed combat, he never got a thrill, he wallowed around most of the time. Raiden killing because he likes it would be more harrowing.

They're already in the cycle.

The Patriot AI perpetuates an endless cycle. Incapable of original thought, it reuses assets and ideas from Shadow Moses to further its perverted agenda (see MGS2). That’s literally all it can do. This is represented in the game by The War Economy, a cycle of endless minutely controlled proxy wars, a routine that perpetually feeds itself. Oddly, it is a bastardisation of Big Boss’ plan from MG2, rather than The Boss’ Will: A world where soldiers will always have a place, albeit under very strict governance.

“Start a war, for its flames create victims... Then save them, train them... And feed them back onto the battlefield. It's a perfectly logical system. In this world of ours, conflict never ends. And neither does our purpose...“

The Patriot AI represents a broader meta-commentary on the series, too. Each game since at least MG2 has had a similar structure and narrative milestones. I’m not going to get into that right now, though.

Anyway, that’s the overarching narrative cycle that each of the characters in one form or another is trying to escape. Most of them also have more personal cycles that they wish to escape. I think it is a pretty well-defined theme in MGS4. Whether it’s a good theme or whether it is explored meaningfully or whether something else would’ve been better, that’s up to you. I’m just saying it’s clearly there.

 

[Raonak]

I thought 2 had worse boss battles than 4. They might have been intense on extreme but were really forgettable in normal. Fatman was a joke. Fortune battle was dumb. Olga and vamp were okay. Only one of interest was the rays which was pretty awesome.

Octopus, wolf, Rex v ray, and liquid were all great fights. Raven, vamp and mantis were okay at best. Sure it's not as good as mgs1 or 3 in that regard. But a step up from mgs2 and pw.

 

[MormaPope]

I thought 2 had worse boss battles than 4. They might have been intense on extreme but were really forgettable in normal. Fatman was a joke. Fortune battle was dumb. Olga and vamp were okay. Only one of interest was the rays which was pretty awesome.

Octopus, wolf, Rex v ray, and liquid were all great fights. Raven, vamp and mantis were okay at best. Sure it's not as good as mgs1 or 3 in that regard. But a step up from mgs2 and pw.

That's every MGS boss fight ever. No challenge or difficulty means boss fights sorta happen.

And the bottom line is the Beauty and the Beast fights can be beaten using fairly similar methods. You can't beat Olga by using the strategy used for Vamp. You can't run and shoot against the harrier. You have a big gun in MGS4? Blast the bosses away with it.

Varied attacks, varied methods of completion, MGS2 still has these qualities even on medium difficulty. MGS4 boss fights besides a couple can be played the same way on any difficulty.

 

[JoJoSono]

Great Stuff.

Great stuff man.

 

[MormaPope]

They're already in the cycle.

The Patriot AI perpetuates an endless cycle. Incapable of original thought, it reuses assets and ideas from Shadow Moses to further its perverted agenda (see MGS2). That’s literally all it can do. This is represented in the game by The War Economy, a cycle of endless minutely controlled proxy wars, a routine that perpetually feeds itself. Oddly, it is a bastardisation of Big Boss’ plan from MG2, rather than The Boss’ Will: A world where soldiers will always have a place, albeit under very strict governance.



The Patriot AI represents a broader meta-commentary on the series, too. Each game since at least MG2 has had a similar structure and narrative milestones. I’m not going to get into that right now, though.

Anyway, that’s the overarching narrative cycle that each of the characters in one form or another is trying to escape. Most of them also have more personal cycles that they wish to escape. I think it is a pretty well-defined theme in MGS4. Whether it’s a good theme or whether it is explored meaningfully or whether something else would’ve been better, that’s up to you. I’m just saying it’s clearly there.

I agree that it is a theme, but I'd argue that it gets muddled due to a lot of story bloat.

Great stuff man.

MGS2 is life, I gotta fight for it.

 

[Screaming Meat]

I agree that it is a theme, but I'd argue that it gets muddled due to a lot of story bloat.

Like I said, I was just replying to you when you said you thought it didn't have one.

EDIT: I'd argue it's pretty consistent though. Where do you think it gets muddled?

 

[MormaPope]

Like I said, I was just replying to you when you said you thought it didn't have one.

Never said it didn't have one, the overall intention of the game felt murky and unclear to me.

I can describe MGS 1-3 themes no problem, for MGS4 I have to remember character motivations and what characters were doing what during the story.

EDIT: I'd argue it's pretty consistent though. Where do you think it gets muddled?

I have very recollection of the AI information stuff, and remember mostly character interactions. AI being in a endless cycle, therefore influencing the real world, doesn't make me as interested as humans manipulating and playing around with AI.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

I bought a PS3 for the sole purpose of playing MGS4 on my birthday, June 26 of the year 2008. I stayed up all night playing the game, and beat it around 9 AM on June 27th.
.

What the fuck...

Did you buy the MGS4 PS3 bundle?


I bought MGS4 for the sole purpose of MGS4 as well, and my birthday is June 26, and I bought it that day in 2008 as well!

 

[Screaming Meat]

Never said it didn't have one, the overall intention of the game felt murky and unclear to me.

I can describe MGS 1-3 themes no problem, for MGS4 I have to remember character motivations and what characters were doing what during the story.

I have no idea what MGS4's themes or main motif is. War is terrible? War + weapon production = profit? The bad guy was actually the good guy that did bad things constantly?

No, you're right you didn't, but to be fair I think you had no idea what the theme or motif was because the game was disappointing, so you didn't give it quite the same consideration you had with the others. EDIT: Which is fair enough!

As I said, I'd argue that the theme is pretty consistent throughout. Where do you think the themes in MGS4 got muddled?

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

I agree that it is a theme, but I'd argue that it gets muddled due to a lot of story bloat.



MGS2 is life, I gotta fight for it.

I like you. Will you be my friend?

Are you honestly trolling now? Do you honestly think that I am suggesting putting before every single thing someone says "IMO"??

Really?

Because I would find it simpler to just refer to your post once as an opinion, and it would be enough, but I guess that this, clearly is for some, a very daunting task.

And yes his post is presented as if it is a factual evidence of complaints

Well, considering you still can't understand what an opinion clearly is when presented in front of you I would say you might as well.

No his post is not presented as fact, it's presented as his view point on a game. Obviously he thinks he is right, it's his view, you don't need to say "THIS IS MY VIEW" when making a statement, it's inferred because he's writing the statement. Just like I don't need to say "THIS IS MY POLITICAL VIEW" when making a political statement which can easily have many different solutions and opinions.

Anyways.

I see an argument that MGS2 was just as crazy as MGS4, or that all the MGS stories are crazy as someone said a few posts back. Sure, when comparing the story and universe of MGS as a whole and comparing it to normal games it's definitely out there, but when comparing the crazy of MGS2/MGS4 to MGS/MGS3 there isn't a comparison, MGS2/MGS4 are fucking nuts. However, there is a key difference in how the "insanity" is presented in MGS2 when compared to MGS4.

MGS4 lacks cognitive dissidence, while MGS2's core narrative is held formed by it. Not getting into the details (Unless someone wants me to and write five pages on it), but I think this is mainly why MGS4 failed on a narrative level. Not even speaking about the blatant character assassination and fanservice, the core of MGS4's insanity and crazy shit has nothing behind it other than insanity or crazy shit.

 

[The_Endgamer]

I bought the Legacy collection and the only one I can get through is Metal Gear Solid 1. The rest are awful, at least Ground Zero is playable.

Blasphemy. Playing through my legacy collection now and they are all great... :'(

 

[MormaPope]

No, you're right you didn't, but to be fair I think you had no idea what the theme or motif was because the game was disappointing, so you didn't give it quite the same consideration you had with the others.

As I said, I'd argue that the theme is consistent throughout. Where do you think the themes in MGS4 got muddled?

Way too drawn out exposition on technology, its uses, why it was created, how it functions, over how that technology has affected and changed specific character perspectives. Not to mention the explanation and motivation for what the Patriots actually is, once again, doesn't make sense. Zero never treated The Boss with the admiration Naked Snake exhibited, yet he felt he had to act on her will? Why? In MGS3 he has little to no remorse for The Boss, why the sudden admiration and need to carry her torch? To create a cycle for somebody he didn't seem to care about?

You said characters are already in a cycle, and while they could be written that way, things still don't make sense. The conclusion of MGS1 would lead players to believe Meryl would never choose a military lifestyle. Surprise, here she is in the military. She found her own way out, the cycle broke for her years ago. Raiden returned to the battlefield due to bad shit happening in his life, when at the end of MGS2 Solid Snake essentially tells Raiden and the player he'll carry the torch, and that its time for Raiden (us) to do stuff elsewhere. Yeah, he was written so his return would make sense in MGS4, but that itself is betraying the ending of MGS2 and Raiden's character arc.

MGS4's theme of endless cycles clashes with what has happened in past games.

 

[valkyre]

No it wasn't, don't know why you keep saying this.


Saying MGS2 has the worst boss fights is pretty damn silly. Fighting with Olga on Extreme or European Extreme is intense as fuck. One hit kill on European Extreme, 1-2 hit kill on Extreme. It feels like a real firefight, and you're stuck with a tranq gun, you don't have the advantage, you must have excellent reflexes, excellent memory for where to pre-aim, and excellent timing to hit Olga right at the exact moment. The fight is fun on normal difficulty, but easy as hell, just like every other MGS boss fight on medium difficulty.

The Fatman fight is pretty damn similar to the Ocelot boss fight in MGS1 when it comes to the mechanics and techniques used. You must run and shoot to get the opportunity to damage him, not mention the chasing involved. If you dislike this bossfight, you pretty much dislike the Ocelot fight from MGS1.

The Fortune fight is stressful on higher difficulties, cause she shoots more, more stuff falls and breaks around you, and you die in 1-2 hits. Fun game of keep-a-way.

The Harrier fight is leagues better than the helicopter fight from MGS1. Tons of more attacks and attack patterns with the harrier, its a lot faster, you have to hide and dodge attacks in a number of ways, it'll kick in your shit. The helicopter fight in MGS1 is pretty damn slow and tame in comparison.

The Vamp fight is pretty stressful, it ranges from slow and methodical to fast and chaotic. Dodging his attacks requires attention and memory skills, you can also shot his projectiles, at the cost of wasting ammo.

The Metal Gear Ray fight is probably the hardest boss fight in the entire series on its highest difficulty. You have to be play perfectly for 15-25 minutes, you fuck up once, sorry. Tons of tension and tons of effort required by the player.

The Solidus fight is personal like the liquid fight, pretty simple pretty fun.

Now, there's a pattern here. MGS2 requires the player to remember things, patterns, attacks, attack patterns, what they can counter something with, how to move, where to move. Guess how all the Beauty and the Best bosses are beaten? You fucking shoot them until they die. They shoot a bunch of shit at you, you hide behind something, and then unload on them. Very few attack patterns, very few attacks, incredibly simple design that doesn't require the player to bust their ass at all on the highest difficulty.

MGS4 on Extreme is the easiest/tied with Snake Eater when it comes to difficulty. MGS2 takes huge balls to beat it on European Extreme, and gigantic balls to beat it getting the Big Boss rank. Seriously, saying MGS2 has the worst bosses is like admitting you only played MGS2 on medium a couple of times and called it a day. When it comes to well designed boss encounters, MGS2 mops the floor with MGS4. Every boss in MGS2 on european Extreme is a 1-2 hit kill.

MGS2 on higher difficulties leads to satisfying victories. MGS4 on its highest difficulty means you play the same but a bit better. Play MGS2 on something other than medium and get back to me.

I have completed every MGS out there in the hardest available difficulty.

If you consider "piss hard and unforgiving" = best boss fights ever , then I am sorry, but thats just plain wrong, or it is just your personal view on "best boss fights". I dont even get how you come up to that conclusion seriously but you can have it. All you did was explain thoroughly that MGS2 had the hardest boss fights...

Great.

That has nothing to do with BEST boss fights, or most enjoyable boss fights, or most memorable ones...

Making a boss fight unforgiving and piss hard aint difficult in a videogame. Making it enjoyable and memorable is.

And let me not be misunderstood... I loved MGS2, but honestly the hate that surrounds MGS4 is by quite a large % completely unjustified.

Never said MGS2 doesn't have pacing issues, every MGS has pacing issues. The pacing in MGS4 is abysmal. Sorry, but 5 minutes of gameplay after a cutscene that lasted 45 minutes too long isn't good pacing. Also, thanks for bringing up MGS2 again. When it comes to area design, overall design and enemy AI, MGS2 is a lot more challenging and fun to mess around with than MGS4. Specific limb damage, smarter enemies, areas designed for very specific tricks. MGS4 isn't bad in the gameplay department, but variety doesn't always mean quality.

You must have enjoyed the last 2-3 hours of MGS2 where you play overall like what? 20 mins? And all you do is whatch your codec screen. At least in MGS4 you watch a damn cutscene and those were (for the most part) very well executed.

Da fuck are you talking about. Solid Snake in MGS1 is cold hearted and gets pissed at the Colonel constantly for keeping him out of the loop. Angry doesn't mean start my own nation of mercenaries and start killing dudes. Solid Snake shoud've been zestier, more energetic when it came to his speech and what he said. Solid Snake is a smartass, hes a joker and a smoker, Solid Snake in MGS4 was a dude that craved naps.

Solid Snake should've been angry that this is the fate he received. Instead of being a apathetic and boring dude.

So you are actually comparing a man on his absolute prime, vs a crippled old dying man (maybe not so much in age but both in body and spirit) who has been constantly deceived and double crossed and he has 6 months to live for? Really?

It was fucking lame. It was really fucking lame. You didn't even counter that, so I guess you sorta agree.

Counter what? Your original statement was a plain "it was fucking lame"... what can I argue with when you have presented ZERO arguments on why it was fucking lame...

I actually gave you the best counter argument according to your presentation.

You say it is fucking lame. I say it is not fucking lame. If you care to elaborate then maybe I will too... I am not going to spend time argumenting when the other side has nothing to show for sorry...

You know that robust Codec team from MGS4? Otacon? Wow, what an awesome codec team full of interesting and fun conversations. Raiden tripping on bird shit is funnier than anything in MGS4. Raiden getting pissed on and then the Colonel and Rose laughing at him is funny. Snake masturbating to a poster in a locker is funny, tapping on that poster's vagina is funny. Where were these moments in MGS4?

Didnt realize you really wanted toilet humor in every single MGS game... my bad

Shit, where were the easter eggs? MGS4 has like 10% of the easter eggs that MGS2 and MGS3 have. Don't understand your comment about Big Boss in MGS3.

MGS2 MGS2 MGS2 MGS2 MGS2

OMG!! Why the hell are you still stuck comparing MGS4 with MGS2???

I never ever ever ever cared to make such a comparison! I only presented counter arguments on specific things that were said on behalf of MGS4 and I compared it with all MGS games and showed that, in fact MGS4 is not that different than the rest.

Oh and MGS4 had easter eggs, I havent counted to check how many they are, but really just the Shadow Moses level must have had like 50 or so... I feel though that you are about to criticize even the subtitle font the game is using... so much hate.

Oh and yeah, I really enjoyed those countless codec awesome Rose - Raiden 10 minute moments talking about movies when all I wanted to do was save the game...

Don't think you know what a character arc is. Also Raiden is his own character in MGS2, as much as MGS2 haters want to think otherwise. Because of the MGS2 haters we got Neo Shit Fox 2.0 in MGS4.

I know very well what a character arc is, but maybe you should ask yourself what was that comment regarding a poor attempt on Gray Fox , when Raiden could actually be perceived as nothing but a placement holder for Solid Snake...even the plot suggests that...

And I dont hate MGS2, I dont hate any MGS game... I love them all with their good and their bad. It is you who are clearly hating MGS4, and you tend to just forgive everything MGS2 did and crucify almost everything MGS4 did. That looks more like borderline fanboism tbh.

Yeah, that other stuff was round and fucked up. EVA coming back the way she did was completely unnecessary. Big Boss coming back the way he did was completely unnecessary. The Patriots amounted to being a really awesome and mysterious entity in past games, in MGS4 the Patriots amounted to Zero doing something Zero wouldn't do.

Again no actual arguments. All you say is "unnecessary" and since you are fixated with MGS2 I could also tell you that MGS2 was completely "unnecessary" by itself.

no it wasnt, but you hopefully get my point.

Because MGS4 is a bloated mess.

And again, a statement followed by zero arguments even when I asked them for...so yeah... there you go.

 

[MormaPope]

I have completed every MGS out there in the hardest available difficulty.

Really? What would you rank hardest to easiest excluding MGS2?

If you consider "piss hard and unforgiving" = best boss fights ever , then I am sorry, but thats just plain wrong, or it is just your personal view on "best boss fights". I dont even get how you come up to that conclusion seriously but you can have it. All you did was explain thoroughly that MGS2 had the hardest boss fights...

Great.

That has nothing to do with BEST boss fights, or most enjoyable boss fights, or most memorable ones...

Making a boss fight unforgiving and piss hard aint difficult in a videogame. Making it enjoyable and memorable is.

And let me not be misunderstood... I loved MGS2, but honestly the hate that surrounds MGS4 is by quite a large % completely unjustified.

You said nothing about boss difficulty before, now MGS2 bosses are the worse in the series because they're too hard? What about attack patterns, ways to beat the bosses, you know, stuff? That's my argument, MGS4 bosses aren't enjoyable or memorable, they're boring because those aspects weren't fleshed out in MGS4.

You must have enjoyed the last 2-3 hours of MGS2 where you play overall like what? 20 mins? And all you do is whatch your codec screen. At least in MGS4 you watch a damn cutscene and those were (for the most part) very well executed.

The last 2-3 hours of MGS4 is a cutscene. After the Ray boss fight there's 15-30 minutes of cutscenes, a 12 minute codec scene, and then the final boss.

So you are actually comparing a man on his absolute prime, vs a crippled old dying man (maybe not so much in age but both in body and spirit) who has been constantly deceived and double crossed and he has 6 months to live for? Really?

Solid Snake killed his own father and brother, and yet he still was a smartass. I think he would be a little more soulful than what was displayed in MGS4.

Counter what? Your original statement was a plain "it was fucking lame"... what can I argue with when you have presented ZERO arguments on why it was fucking lame...

I actually gave you the best counter argument according to your presentation.

You say it is fucking lame. I say it is not fucking lame. If you care to elaborate then maybe I will too... I am not going to spend time argumenting when the other side has nothing to show for sorry...

Why wasn't it lame? As of now this is a lameness stalemate.

Didnt realize you really wanted toilet humor in every single MGS game... my bad

MGS4 is the MGS where Johnny shits himself in front of the everybody, brown sludge at the bottom of his pants, there's even stink lines. He shits himself multiple times.

MGS2 MGS2 MGS2 MGS2 MGS2

OMG!! Why the hell are you still stuck comparing MGS4 with MGS2???

I never ever ever ever cared to make such a comparison! I only presented counter arguments on specific things that were said on behalf of MGS4 and I compared it with all MGS games and showed that, in fact MGS4 is not that different than the rest.

Oh and MGS4 had easter eggs, I havent counted to check how many they are, but really... you are about to criticize even the subtitle font the game is using... so much hate.

Oh and yeah I really enjoyed those countless codec awesome Rose - Raiden moments talking about movies when all I wanted to do was save the game...

Hint: there aren't that many easter eggs/secrets in MGS4 when compared to MGS2 and MGS3. Looking at the wikis, MGS4 has stuff during briefings, and specific codec instances with Otacon and Rose. It seems long codec conversations were replaced with specific calls to be made. And for somebody who has beaten every MGS on their hardest difficulties, you sure didn't dive into the plethora of extra codec calls in MGS2. Tons of side info there.

I know very well what a character arc is, but maybe you should ask yourself what was that comment regarding a poor attempt on Gray Fox , when Raiden was actually a placement holder for Solid Snake...

In MGS4? Raiden was a placeholder for Snake in MGS4? That doesn't make any sense.

And I dont hate MGS2, I dont hate any MGS game... I love them all with their good and their bad. It is you who are clearly hating MGS4, and you tend to just forgive everything MGS2 did and crucify almost everything MGS4 did. That looks more like borderline fanboism tbh.

Didn't deny that I'm criticizing MGS4, never said MGS2 is perfect.

Again no actual arguments. All you say is "unnecessary" and since you are fixated with MGS2 I could also tell you that MGS2 was completely "unnecessary" by itself.

no it wasnt, but you hopefully get my point.

They already had full arcs, their stories were done. They were brought back for fan service.

And again, a statement followed by zero arguments even when I asked them for...so yeah... there you go.

If I applied this same rule to you, well, you'd be guilty as well.

I wrote a wall of text describing each MGS2 boss, and your response was "well hard doesn't mean good".

MGS4 lacks cognitive dissidence, while MGS2's core narrative is held formed by it. Not getting into the details (Unless someone wants me to and write five pages on it), but I think this is mainly why MGS4 failed on a narrative level. Not even speaking about the blatant character assassination and fanservice, the core of MGS4's insanity and crazy shit has nothing behind it other than insanity or crazy shit.

Yup and agreed.

 

[valkyre]

Really? What would you rank hardest to easiest excluding MGS2?

Depends on many things, for example are we talking pure solo runs? Are we talking stealth runs? Big Boss runs? What exactly? Because i'll you that playing PW solo was like the hardest motherf***er ever! So it depends on many things.

You said nothing about boss difficulty before, now MGS2 bosses are the worse in the series because they're too hard? What about attack patterns, ways to beat the bosses, you know, stuff? That's my argument, MGS4 bosses aren't enjoyable or memorable, they're boring because those aspects weren't fleshed out in MGS4.

When did I say that MGS2 bosses are the worse in the series. I specifically said that MGS2 PW and PO had according to my taste worse boss fights than MGS4. If you ask me, the worst boss fights in an MGS game are the ones in PW. But I have to admit that MGS2 boss fights were among the "big" titles worse for me. I liked some of them, such as the Harrier battle, but I foudn Fatman Vamp and the whole platoon of Ray battles not that great.

The last 2-3 hours of MGS4 is a cutscene. After the Ray boss fight there's 15-30 minutes of cutscenes, a 12 minute codec scene, and then the final boss.

I did not know that being rewarded with an extensive ending is a bad thing really. I always welcome long endings. Dont know why someone wouldnt want something like that really.

Solid Snake killed his own father and brother, and yet he still was a smartass. I think he would be a little more soulful than what was displayed in MGS4.

Now you went from angry to smartass, kind of a different thing since your original statement dont you think? Being a smartass when you clearly are broken in many ways, aint that realistic. Still he displayed such lines and behaviors in MGS4.

Why wasn't it lame? As of now this is a lameness stalemate.

Of course and it is a lameness stalemate since you havent presented any arguments to begin with. And after so many posts you still havent. So I dont get whose fault is that it has become a stalemate... you offered a statement with nothing to back it up, you expect me to counter argument with nothing? Again, sorry...

MGS4 is the MGS where Johnny shits himself in front of the everybody, brown sludge at the bottom of his pants, there's even stink lines. He shits himself multiple times.

Are you answering to me or to you now? It was you who actually questioned were was toilet humor in MGS4... well, there you have it.

I never stated I liked toilet humor, including those scenes from MGS4...

Hint: there aren't that many easter eggs/secrets in MGS4 when compared to MGS2 and MGS3. Looking at the wikis, MGS4 has stuff during briefings, and specific codec instances with Otacon and Rose. It seems long codec conversations were replaced with specific calls to be made. And for somebody who has beaten every MGS on their hardest difficulties, you sure didn't dive into the plethora of extra codec calls in MGS2. Tons of side info there.

Hint: Stating "were are the easter eggs" when there certainly are easter eggs, has nothing to do with "who has the most easter eggs".

Again you keep changing your original statements. Not my fault you did not express them correctly the first time. And I never found the "lack" of easter eggs compared to the other games, so absurdly bad... in fact , the feelings act IV gave me, actually worth more than the extra info other games had in codec...

In MGS4? Raiden was a placeholder for Snake in MGS4? That doesn't make any sense.

It makes the exact same sense (according to your reasoning) that Gray Fox comparisons make in MGS4.

Didn't deny that I'm criticizing MGS4, never said MGS2 is perfect.

Well when every single sentence and argument you have contains MGS2, where I never ever started this comparison, allow me to suggest that indeed, you are close to fanboism territory. Maybe I am wrong.

They already had full arcs, their stories were done. They were brought back for fan service.

Just like Big Boss, The Boss, Ocelot and all the main recurring characters in MGS games had full arcs and yet kept coming back.

If I applied this same rule to you, well, you'd be guilty as well.

How so? You were the one presenting the lame stuff of MGS4, yet you provided no arguments to back them up. So how exactly can I debate when the other side simply doesnt have arguments... ??

Show me a moment where I simply responded without presenting an argument to something you originally argued. ..you wont be able to. I dont just state "this is lame" and expect the other part to start arguing by himself... seriously...

I wrote a wall of text describing each MGS2 boss, and your response was "well hard doesn't mean good".

Your wall of text was appreciated, but unfortunately irrelevant and almost offtopic, to the discussion we were having. We were discussing that MGS4 had the worse boss fights in the series.

And then you went on to describe every boss of MGS2 as if the comparison was between the 2. Then, even that, by itself was wrong because -and I will say it again- : hardest boss fight =/ best/most memorable boss fight.

Also on a more general tone, this whole "MGS4 hate" that is abundant, reminds me of the good old MGS2 days. I remember back then how many MGS fans where crucifying the game for deceiving the player that he will play with Snake, the long cutscenes, the incoherent narrative, and the complex story, and the limited gameplay and the codec.

And I was there defending the game, its narrative, the news ways it tried to approach the series and the "ahead of its time" thinking.

Now MGS2 is generally seen as a great game finally, and when MGS4 released everyone was in love with it, now they hate it...

It will happen with MGSV I am sure, one way or the other. It always does. It looks as if it is a pattern...

 

[MormaPope]

This discussion is slowing down to oatmeal levels.

I really don't like MGS4, some people do. I'll continue to say why I don't like it in MGS4 threads. The people that love MGS4 are the lucky ones, as I haven't played a excellent MGS game since 2004 (I did play Subsistence and the HD collection though, Peacewalker is aight. Ground Zeroes is excellent, but the real deal will be MGS V).

 

[Mr. X]

If I played the single player once and didn't replay it, I'd probably feel like the people who like it a lot.

The spectacle of the first time through for is totally gone on subsequent playthroughs and that's kind of entirely what MGS4 is; spectacle and nostalgia. After that, you just have great controls and very little gameplay time after Act 2. Story time with Drebin after each B&B didn't do anything to make them interesting characters, just felt like an after thought. Rex vs Ray and Snake vs Ocelot are the best parts of the game tbqh. These are perfect examples of QTEs used well imo.

I can replay any other MGS and feel the game as a whole holds up, MGS4 just doesn't.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Disclaimer: I'm not MGS4's biggest fan for a number of reason but I think thematically it holds up.

Way too drawn out exposition on technology, its uses, why it was created, how it functions, over how that technology has affected and changed specific character perspectives.

Metal Gear has always been tech-porn. It’s usually told in CODECS, which MGS4 lacks, so that may be why it bloats the narrative out.

With regards to "perspectives", what do you mean exactly?

As I recall, Naomi laments her obsession with nano-tech and how she “can’t slip free” of her fate however hard she tries. Vamp can’t die because of the nanomachines even though all he wants to do is “be” with Dolph and Fortune. We’re given a detailed breakdown of how PMCs are affected by nano-tech and shown it in action and what happens when that tech is removed. Sunny spends her entire life in the womb of the philanthropy plane, her only connection to the outside world is via tech and that shows in her personality. Raiden is obviously directly affected as he is mostly machine. Nano-machines threaten to turn Old Snake into a biological bomb and the super sci-fi cloning process has aged him drastically. Etc.

If that’s the sort of thing you mean, it’s all definitely there and it definitely affects their characters and outlooks. I'm not sure how any of that perspective stuff muddies the themes though. If anything, they mostly support them.

Not to mention the explanation and motivation for what the Patriots actually is, once again, doesn't make sense. Zero never treated The Boss with the admiration Naked Snake exhibited, yet he felt he had to act on her will? Why? In MGS3 he has little to no remorse for The Boss, why the sudden admiration and need to carry her torch? To create a cycle for somebody he didn't seem to care about?

I don’t think it’s fair to say that he had “little or no remorse” or that his admiration was "sudden". He worked with The Boss prior to MGS3 and shows her the utmost respect when talking about her. Regardless of that, you are right that Zero’s implied character in MGS4 is pretty jarring considering what he was like in MGS3. I’m hoping TTP clears up the transition in some way.

However, his change and motivation are addressed in MGS4. Whether it was done so satisfactorily or not is a question of taste. It wasn't great for me but it wasn't game ruining (other stuff did that).

His interpretation of The Boss’ Will does make a lot of sense in the context of what she said at the end of MGS3 and how her AI reacted at the end of PW. He took her epiphany in space, seeing the world without borders and just as one big ball of dirt, to mean she wanted a world under singular control. That much at least makes sense to me.

The whole “endless cycle” thing isn’t something that Zero purposefully set-up, so he doesn’t need a motive for it. It’s explicitly stated that the Patriot AI is no longer under his direction and has perverted whatever initial plan he had. Here’s Big Boss’ explanation from the debriefing:

“Zero was no longer willing to place his organization in the hands of the next generation. Instead, he set up a network of AIs […] By then, the System was no longer being steered by Zero's will -- or anyone else's […]Zero's original intent was to carry on The Boss's will and establish a unified world state... An inside world. But his successors failed to carry on his will. Eventually, JD became the very age itself, propagating its will as it pleased […] It was a colossal error in judgment – one Zero couldn't possibly have forseen.”

How he knew that whilst being in Schrodinger’s coma, I don’t know. XD

You said characters are already in a cycle, and while they could be written that way, things still don't make sense. The conclusion of MGS1 would lead players to believe Meryl would never choose a military lifestyle. Surprise, here she is in the military. She found her own way out, the cycle broke for her years ago.

It is heavily implied that Snake and Meryl got together at the end of MGS and that he would live his life for “someone else”.

Obviously, that didn't come to pass and something happened in the interim to change that:

“A certain legendary hero who suddenly disappeared? You quit the unit. Me... I never gave up on you... or on FOXHOUND. Back then, I just wanted you to accept me. I wanted you to turn around and see who I was. But... I've put the past behind. I'm done playing little love games.”

In MGS, as I recall, she loses her glamorous view of War, she doesn’t explicitly give up soldiering. Even so, assuming she does, if she broke up with Snake, what else would she do…? It doesn’t seem out of character for her to return to it to me, she's from a military family and it's all she's really known.

Raiden returned to the battlefield due to bad shit happening in his life, when at the end of MGS2 Solid Snake essentially tells Raiden and the player he'll carry the torch, and that its time for Raiden (us) to do stuff elsewhere. Yeah, he was written so his return would make sense in MGS4, but that itself is betraying the ending of MGS2 and Raiden's character arc.

I can see that although, as I said, if you can draw that conclusion here, you could easily draw that conclusion with MGS2 bringing Snake back at all. Did that not betray the ending of MGS1 (see above)?

Raiden suddenly getting over his violent past is more of a narrative contrivance than the idea that he tries but fails and still suffers from PTSD (a key motif in MGS4). That doesn’t seem too far a stretch compared to some of the other narrative gymnastics in MGS4.

It is interesting that a game all about endings subverts all of the series' nice neat comfortable endings. We rarely get to see in films, after a big philosophical denouement, the hero then go on to fail to live up to it.

MGS4's theme of endless cycles clashes with what has happened in past games.

Perhaps narratively, but I don’t think it does thematically. For instance, MGS’s big message was about being chained by fate (represented by genetics) which I think the idea of breaking out of an endless cycle ties into pretty neatly.

In fact, each game is by it’s a nature a rehash of the previous with extra bells and whistles. As I said, the endless cycle is a meta-narrative explanation for why the actual games are so similar and probably Hideo’s boredom (hence why PW and TTP shake up the formula). I thought it was quite smart to turn that into a narrative point. XD

Hope that wasn't too "oatmeal"

 

[Zebetite]

What the fuck...

Did you buy the MGS4 PS3 bundle?


I bought MGS4 for the sole purpose of MGS4 as well, and my birthday is June 26, and I bought it that day in 2008 as well!

Nope, none were around at my local Best Buy. I bought a 40gb and purchased MGS4 separately.

 

[gdt]

Okay I just finished 2 and 3 (liked 2, loved 3) and I'm just starting this one.

So far, I'm loving the control changes, much smoother and easier to move and sneak. Thank god for crouch walk.

But, this game has crashed on me like 3 times already . Twice when I try to access the camouflage option in the start menu (to put on a militia outfit I found in locker). What gives? I have an old save file from forever ago, but I only made it a bit in. Maybe that's fucking with it.

 

[solid mike]

This thread makes me want to start up MGS1 all the way to PW on the PS3.

Have not played GZ

 

[De_Legend]

So good.

 

[tensuke]

Alright, guess it's time to replay this again!

 

[Draft]

Act I: Good.
Act 2: Good.
Act 3: Pretty bad.
Act 4: Slightly bad.
Act 5. Barely an act. Act 4.5.

The worst game in the mainline MGS series.

3 > 1 > 2 > 4.

 

[thesolidshark]

MGS4 relied on technology being the backbone of characterization way too much. Pretty ironic actually, like you said MGS4 is about the over reliance of technology.

And I think the way too much was partially the point of 4. I really can't think of a single character in 4 that didn't have a heavy reliance on tech (outside of Johnny maybe). Snake's octo-camo/muscle suit outfitting, Sunny practically living in the digital world, Meryl and soldiers like her relying on tech for most of their soldiering, Raiden becoming tech (though out of a different circumstance).

A Genome soldier unit that amounts to being perfect recreations of each of Snake would've hit all the nostalgia notes perfectly.

Naked - Close quarters combat (rushes the player, devastating hand to hand damage, mimics The Boss)
Solid - Sneaking and stealth (Stays away and flanks the player, lays traps, mimics Vulcan Raven)
Liquid - Marksman and quick on his feet (Fast moving sniper, constantly darts around, mimics Sniper Wolf and The End)
Solidus - Flexible, spider like solider (Can run and crawl on walls, ceilings, mimics The Fear)

Sounds like a direction I'd expect the MSX Metal Gear games to go. Doesn't sound bad, sounds a little catchy in-fact, but I still preferred the idea of the B&B Corps, especially in it highlighting that future's female battlefield supremacy.

I really don't like MGS4, some people do. I'll continue to say why I don't like it in MGS4 threads. The people that love MGS4 are the lucky ones, as I haven't played a excellent MGS game since 2004 (I did play Subsistence and the HD collection though, Peacewalker is aight. Ground Zeroes is excellent, but the real deal will be MGS V).

As much as you like MGS2, I'm sorry you didn't (or couldn't) like MGS4, but I do thank you for explaining why through such detail. Then again, maybe other than 1, it's par for the course on why people do or don't like anything past it.

 

[Sn4ke_911]

The launch trailer was awesome.

Courage Is Solid

 

[gdt]

This game is just crashing on me all the time now. Just right after I met Drebin, didn't even let me save. Wtf

 

[PeregrinSe7en]

This just highlights how poor 2008 was for console gaming.

This game is literally a punishment.

One of the worst games I've ever played and basically killed my interest in the entire franchise.

I still love the first three thankfully.

not just one of the worse MGS games but one of the worse games i've ever had to play.

watching snake smoke during the install was more entertaining than the cut-scenes in this POS.

i detect lots of salt from these posts.

It won GAF's GOTY 2008.

And the (shitty attempt to revoke that title) "2008 re-vote" several years later.

It is a very vocal minority.

im glad it was re-voted as GOTY. proof enough that there truly is a very vocal minority that hated on it

 

[ROMAD]

i tried so very hard to LIKE this game... will never be as good as mgs 1, 2, or especially 3: the best game I ever played!!

 

[shawnhi]

People should stop presenting their opinions as if they are facts...

.

 

[Jafku]

This was the game that made me pickup a PS3. I love the game, the boss fights, and of course MGO. It is one of my favorite games of last gen.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

I've never played a MGS. If I do play one I think it'll probably be 3. I don't know why, but sneaking through the forest seems like it would make me care less about the melodrama.

 

[JoJoSono]

The launch trailer was awesome.

Courage Is Solid

I think this is the first thing that made me realize how crappy MGS4 was going to be. Seriously, this trailer was way too corny for my taste.

I didn't know the situation back then, but the lack of trailers with the theme really hurt.

It will happen with MGSV I am sure, one way or the other. It always does. It looks as if it is a pattern...

You're pattern theory dosen't hold up. 1 and 3 were pretty loved. PW didn't make some people like MGS4. Maybe some people just don't like MGS4. There's not some MGS cycle nonsense thats dictating people's feelings on the games.

 

[Love Deterrence]

I've never played a MGS. If I do play one I think it'll probably be 3. I don't know why, but sneaking through the forest seems like it would make me care less about the melodrama.

Melodrama? In Metal Gear? I'm pretty sure you're thinking of another series.

 

[facelike]

I've never played a MGS. If I do play one I think it'll probably be 3. I don't know why, but sneaking through the forest seems like it would make me care less about the melodrama.

There's plenty of melodrama in all of them. I love 3 the most but I feel it was the hardest to get into. I was able to get into 1 and 4 much more than 3, but as I played through 3 it became amazing. It was like a movie with a slow start that gets better as it progresses and becomes a triller by the end. TBO, I probably would have stopped playing

I've noticed that many are discounting the importance of Peace Walker. All Metal Gear fans should play this game, it's awesome and a lot of fun.

 

[JoJoSono]

I've noticed that many are discounting the importance of Peace Walker. All Metal Gear fans should play this game, it's awesome and a lot of fun.

I discount it because I don't think it's very fun. In fact if not for MGS4 just being a big disappointment and thus weighing down more in my mind, I'd say PW is Kojima's worst MGS.

It is'nt a fun game. Well maybe in co-op, but solo it sure is'nt. I played this solo on PSP, where the aiming was pretty terrible. Yet, who cares! You can really just run up to guards and cqc them. Hell chain cqc them.The ai is so stupid and the maps so small it's pretty possible. Yet, you could easily just get into a corner and shot. Take out the entire level of guards that way. Works for many levels and since you can actually aim well in the HD versions the game cames an even bigger cakewalk there. Because of this I found the missions extremely boring to play through. There was nothing to them.

Yet thanks to this games terrible balancing I'll be grinding through similar, but not as hand crafted, side missions.

That's because the boss battles in this game are awful. Beyond the fact that they are robots and not people, therefore not having those awesome personalities. They are also really tedious. Taking forever to kill solo, unless of course you grind through the boring missions to develop weapons. You can do that and make them less tedious. They aren't actually hard. It's just the battles become you endlessly shooting and then waiting for supply drops to shoot again.Not fun at all.

So this all adds up to a game that is'nt fun to play at all, at least by yourself.

As for the story. I've already checked out with MGS's story, so I already don't care. It's just another as far as I'm concerned useless tale about Big Boss. One I don't feel is needed. One that's filled with uninteresting characters and revelations. One with a really stupid retcon regarding the Boss.

So no, I don't think it's wrong to discount PW. In my opinion of course.

 

[encephalon]

"Fox Alive"

Kill me now.

 

[Sub_Level]

"Fox Alive"

Kill me now.

We could kill you, but then we'd end up just using body parts from Liquid and Solidus to put you back together. In the interim, we can restrain your consciousness using the same technology found in the Beauty and Beast squad which you encountered. Also, nanomachines.

 

[Screaming Meat]

One with a really stupid retcon regarding the Boss.

What retcon?

 

[Palpable]

MetaGearSolid's VR Theory reading of MGS2 is quite simply superb. That should be your next stop. It's the only VR Theory revolving around a Metal Gear game that actually makes sense thematically. Not too convinced by the rest of his articles though.

I plan to. Looking through some of his other stuff, it seems he love bashing everything in the series unless it's MGS1 or MGS2...