It's the false reasoning of: "If they fail at making a game that doesn't appeal to me, they therefore could in the future make games that do appeal to me."
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Rumor: EA to layoff 500-1000 people [EA: We're hiring 100's, headcount up this year]
- Thread starter Wario64
- Start date
It's the false reasoning of: "If they fail at making a game that doesn't appeal to me, they therefore could in the future make games that do appeal to me."
I even like Tera but nobody has any reason to be afraid of it from a business perspective. It's going to be a haven for people who love Korean aesthetics and gameplay and for chronic MMO jumpers.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
It's good for people who want to try the game as an F2P MMO lol.
Interfectum
Member
Big budget shit games should crash and burn. $200 million on TOR and this is what was delivered? Inexcusable. How many good games could have been made with that $200 million? How many more WoW clones do we need?
Are you being sarcastic?
The market is deciding as we speak.
Yeah, so glad Blizzard came along and invented the genre. Can't imagine a world before online fantasy RPGs. Can't believe none existed before 2004!
Interfectum
Member
Haha this old nugget.
The reason why there are so many clones is due to the fact that WoW elevated the genre to massive heights (in popularity, sales, etc). Rift, TOR, etc aren't copying Everquest design, they are copying WoW's design (ie theme park MMO).
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
That's not what people mean when they call something a WoW-clone.
BattleMonkey
Member
What do you define as a "good prostitue" for the cost of the game?
Interfectum
Member
$60 + cab fare?
TOR is good until you get to 50 and realize there's nothing to do. It kind of crashes and burns at that point. Run the same 5-10 dungeons ad nauseum and the best part of the game ends abruptly forever unless you make an alt and do it all over.
The game would have been better off as a single player game (with optional co-op), a better engine, and a more important overall narrative
The game would have been better off as a single player game (with optional co-op), a better engine, and a more important overall narrative
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
So basically a proper KOTOR3?
Goro Majima
Kitty Genovese Member
For what it's worth, I really enjoy TOR.
It's hard to compare it to a game like WoW which has been in development for over 10 years and has been able to tweak it and patch it for over 7. I don't think good MMOs are built in a day. I'm pretty confident they'll improve it significantly as time goes on.
It's hard to compare it to a game like WoW which has been in development for over 10 years and has been able to tweak it and patch it for over 7. I don't think good MMOs are built in a day. I'm pretty confident they'll improve it significantly as time goes on.
I am a regular user of Ars Technica and [H]ard forums, and both have people bitching about TOR (I'm not the only one).
And at first playing I told myself I liked it. Until I got to level 50 and realized it was your standard "kill 10 X and come back to receive GREEN item" that has been done over and over again in every other MMO. Storylines and voice acting were decent to good, but $200+ million good? Not by a long shot. End game content is a total joke and you are lying to yourself if you think not. None of the "well it's only been released, give it time" argument is going to hold up. One, the game has been in development for 5 years. Two, they were supposedly "learning" from other MMO's when crafting the game (if they did, where the fuck is the end game and dozens and dozens of other things that most MMO players wanted?).
Bottom line about a MMO is this: the game is to facilitate an experience with other large amounts of people. Clans, Guilds, Corps, etc, and SWTOR has nothing to facilitate that. The closest they get is running Operations. But other than that, you might as well just LFG all of the time. Nothing to build a reputation with (i.e. crafting can be a huge community/reputation builder in a game, it def was in SWG). Nothing to rally around for (no guild houses, PVP lands to call your own and fight over, etc) the guild. It plays like KOTOR 3 would play, but with an added chatroom. The only time this game acts like an MMO is when you are in Fleet and seeing 60+ people running around taking care of business. Other than that, where is the MMO at? 16 man operation is hardly MMO worthy. Not when you got EVE Online with 2000+ man fights on screen, not when you got the original Planetside with hundreds of people fighting on the same grid, etc.
Their idea to go with a story-driven MMO is something to be admired because it hasn't been done before. But it's execution isn't something to write home about. And the idea itself is something that doesn't lend itself to long term subs. Once you finish storylines, nothing else to do. So you unsub, like I did among other things. I don't plan on trying to game again until they come out with the space combat thing that's been talked about here and there. But, if all it ends up being is the same console shitforbrains rail shooter that it is now but with a group, count me out. Freeform and don't even bother. Maybe console kiddies like rail shooters, PC gamers do not. We want free form flight. Tie Fighter, X-Wing, SWG's space combat, Wing Commander, that's what we want. Not fucking Starfox /rolleyes.
Interfectum
Member
Yeah it was crazy how the story just ended and then it's like "okay now go grind on dungeons for slightly better looking low-res armor."
gamergirly
Member
That's a contradicting message
BattleMonkey
Member
What is the game supposed to do though? Single player games end too.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Not necessarily "they", but other developers might try something besides yet another copy of WoW if they see massive WoW-clones crashing and burning left and right.
I'm not sure that it's false reasoning at all.
Oh nice, blame it on GAF (which you are also a part of) and the Internet as a whole. How about they just made a shitty game that isn't very appealing?
If SWTOR is the result of a push for a "big budget MMO", then I can't wait until the smaller budget studios start churning out their MMORPGs.
Maybe it shouldn't have tried to be a mediocre single player game with MMORPG elements attached here and there. SWTOR actively discourages player interaction. It probably has the most non-existent community of any MMORPG to date. I don't know what they were expecting from players who stuck around for the story stuff (which is obviously what they put most of their effort into). "Now that you've completed the story arc, go do mindless dungeons with a bunch of people you've spent the last 200 hours completely ignoring so you can get incremental item upgrades!"
That's false equivalency. SP game you don't continue to pay for. MMO's you do. Ergo: that's why some are saying it should go F2P.
BattleMonkey
Member
You can cancel your sub whenever you want.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
I just want to point out (since a lot of people keep saying it to attack EA in this instance) that it's a managerial fault to 'fail to reign in costs' - while that's likely true, the biggest "cost" a game budget has is time/labor, and the most effective way to 'reign' that is, in fact, layoffs. Granted, you can allocate team member resources more efficiently, but it's not like we have insight into that process per team.
In affect, by laying off 500+ people on various teams who may not currently be working on a project - IS management 'reigning in costs'/overhead. It's a case, sometimes, of being fully conscious of what your 'recommending' (accusing someone of not keeping costs down yet bashing someone when they cut down dev team sizes)
In affect, by laying off 500+ people on various teams who may not currently be working on a project - IS management 'reigning in costs'/overhead. It's a case, sometimes, of being fully conscious of what your 'recommending' (accusing someone of not keeping costs down yet bashing someone when they cut down dev team sizes)
Where did I even remotely blame GAF or the Internet? SWTOR was designed for a mainstream audience to which GAF is not a target demographic. Until we see evidence otherwise, TOR has been much more successful than most MMOs in this respect. Will they continue this success? We'll see. I'm dubious myself. But I don't put stock into the opinions of hardcore gamers saying niche MMOs will take down a -- like it or not -- major player on the MMO scene.
And if you don't think the Internet hates Lucas/EA/Bioware, we must be on different Internets.
Lord of the Rings isn't free however
Lord of the Rings was released in april of 2007 and it cost $60 and $15 a month. Some were able to do a $200 lifetime or $10 reduce cost sub. It wasn't until Nov 2010 that the game went free to play.
The game had 3 years in which to turn a profit and create content that people wanted to play.
However the game is still not free to play . To actually play the full game you will still be spending $15 a month.
Free to play only works for those who play very little monthly or like to hop games. In the end if you become invested in the game your going to be spending at least the monthly fee.
Guild wars 2 is a diffrent beast and I have yet to play it and so I don't know how it would compare to other MMO's
I love when publisher grow in therms of non-developers staff and must create 5mln+ hits to sustain themself. In few years 10mln+ will be considered failture.
I will be there when this shit will blow in face for them.
And probably it will go where this should be. Being creative and innovative.
I will be there when this shit will blow in face for them.
And probably it will go where this should be. Being creative and innovative.
How is SW TOR any diffrent than WoW they both end with only raiding and pvp as end game content .
WOW was also a mess of a game at launch , how it survied I have no idea but it certianly wasn't good and had very little content compared to older games like EQ and UO . Yet some how dispite it being a mediocre single play gamer (because soloing was the fastest way to level in the game ) it still had many people paying a monthly subscription until an expansion pack came out. Now we are sitting 6/7 years later and everyone talks about how great WOW is and how others games are crap compared to it .
The simple fact of the matter is that MMO's need to time grow , you can't expect a new game to have the same level of content as older games.
The F2P fad is destroying the industry and in the end we will have no one to blame but ourselves.
I'm not sure how F2P is a fad or destroying the industry. I certainly don't know many people actually working in the industry that feel that way.
Hari Seldon
Member
I really enjoyed TOR until I hit max level. It is a good game for a lot of hours. But they did not innovate enough and the generic end game kills it. It is not just that the end game is lacking content, it is that it is simply generic. I don't care about grouping up and doing dungeons to get loot. I'm sooooo over that. Think of something else damnit!
FieryBalrog
Member
People keep mentioning EQ like they played it or know what the fuck they're talking about.
FieryBalrog
Member
I utterly fail to see how this is a negative.
I played EQ from release, all the way up untill temple of veeshan. I am 27 by the way. When SWTOR was announced I was excited, then I waited. I let it launch, the server queues and bugs. Said to myself let's let this baby roast in the oven and see what happens, after about 1 month I could tell this was going to fail. Really I can't tell you why, or how, but I knew. Maybe it was the fact that all my friends were not shitting their pants, or telling me to play. Who knows, but I definitely knew.
From what I understand the main gripe and biggest problem is literally no end game other than running dungeons for incremental upgrade. If you do not have a good guild system, with really fun/challenging dungeons and boss's, there really is no point to your game if it's supposed to be an MMO.
I played the shit out of EQ man, it was my first MMO.
FieryBalrog
Member
Yeah, was referring more to the people who go "lol EQ" anytime you point out that SWTOR is yet another in a long line of WoW clones.
Oh no all good man, first time posting in this thread for me. It's just so weird that this game is failing, I am usually wrong about everything.
This "WoW was a mess!!" meme is getting really annoying. The game had server stability issues at launch, no one will deny that, but it was hardly a mess. I still managed to play it and hardly have any ill memories of the first few months except for the loot lag. Blizzard also rectified the issue by giving out tons of free playing time.
I can't even really explain how ridiculous "WoW certainly wasn't good when it was released" statement was. The gameplay in WoW hasn't really changed at all since it was released and it still has an unmatched level of reponsiveness to the combat that make it much better than any other MMO I have played. The ability delay in TOR was one of the biggest flaws for me.
Ugh, defending Blizzard is weird.
SMH. F2P can be done poorly, as can P2P. Both can be done well though such as games like: TF2, Quake Live, Tribes Ascend, etc.
Ramping up for the next generation of consoles I see... Wait, no.
Maybe if they put some marketing dollars behind titles like Syndicate, Shadows of the Damned, and Crysis 2 or message games properly unlike how they messaged Bulletstorm, they might see better performance from their mid tier titles.
Maybe if they put some marketing dollars behind titles like Syndicate, Shadows of the Damned, and Crysis 2 or message games properly unlike how they messaged Bulletstorm, they might see better performance from their mid tier titles.
Look I hate F2P stuff more than anyone but it's not a fad, people are making gross amounts of money with the way those schemes are set up (borderline scams IMO). It's not going away anytime soon.
As for ToR I had hopes for it but I should have known a big budget EA game wasn't going to push any boundaries. It was solid fun for one level 50 character, though I started burning out in the late 40s, but after that I found it impossible to level another character. I tried because I wanted to experience other class stories, but you only get like 1 class quest for every 10 standard MMO quests and there's no other leveling path like in WoW with the 2nd continent. I couldn't get a 2nd character past level 20 before burning out doing the same exact shit I just did.
For such a large budget game that took years to make it may be the most unambitious MMO I've played.
Try playing a character on the opposite faction, but I agree that is a problem. I listen to podcast while leveling alts.
riceandbeans
Member
That was never going to happen. When EA bought Bioware and gained their IP's, TOR was probably the biggest IP they knew they could exploit and demand from them.
I've got zero positive expectations from Bioware with EA cracking the whip at them. I'm expecting a steady flow of Mass Effect follow ups and maybe a new IP that'll be even more fucked up with controversial DLC, retailer exclusive bullshit, online passes, and more.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
I'm not a fan of WoW. It's the game that brought us into the shitty place we are in now when it comes to MMORPGs. However, at release, it still had a lot of elements that encouraged social interaction and grouping with other players. Also, compared to the previous MMORPG launches, WoW's went pretty damn smoothly. You've got to take it in the context of what was available at the time. Comparing TOR of late 2011 to WoW of early 2005 just doesn't make much sense.
Cpt.Underpants
Member
nvm wrong thread
The opposite faction for me was Republic and it was a well known joke or gag on the server I was playing on that the Republic storylines were a joke and incredibly boring. It doesn't help that the majority of their moves are the same as their Sith counterparts.
From my experience with it they were right too. I wasn't able to get off any of the Republic starting planets because of boredom. Nolan North really phoned his role in, so dry and sleep-inducing.
Disagree to some extent. I like what WoW offered to the genre, and while I understand the real desires for a modern UO or EQ with the kind of spit shine that WoW got, it's not really Blizzard's fault that Sony, EA, Funcom, and Trion Worlds made WoWish clones. That's on their respective companies, not Blizzard.
Uh, what? You're blaming Blizzard/WoW for being so popular/good that other companies cloned it? Logic, how does it work?
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
"Good" isn't as objective as you're making it out to be. I don't like the solo-focused heavily-instanced take on MMORPGs that WoW popularized. I wanted the genre to go in a different direction.
It's kind of like what shit like Call of Duty did to the FPS genre. Tons of copycat military corridor snoozefests, where you're funneled along a linear path simply to view the next spectacle. At least in the FPS genre, there are tons of smaller budget alternatives.
boutrosinit
Street Fighter IV World Champion
End of financia year layoffs. Why do you guys act surprised every year?
So I stumbled upon this while looking at job listing at Lucasarts:
Possible sign of TOR going F2P?
Preferred abilities:
• The ability to keep yourself and co-workers motivated.
• Stress management experience
• Problem solving skills
• Be able to lead by example. Work hard, stay focused on the task in hand, and consistently arrive on time.
• Experience with The Old Republic and other free to play online games is a bonus.
Link: https://www.lucasfilm.apply2jobs.co...tion=mExternal.showJob&RID=4066&CurrentPage=1
I figured this was the best thread for it, since people seem to be discussing these layoffs along with TOR's success.
Possible sign of TOR going F2P?
Preferred abilities:
• The ability to keep yourself and co-workers motivated.
• Stress management experience
• Problem solving skills
• Be able to lead by example. Work hard, stay focused on the task in hand, and consistently arrive on time.
• Experience with The Old Republic and other free to play online games is a bonus.
Link: https://www.lucasfilm.apply2jobs.co...tion=mExternal.showJob&RID=4066&CurrentPage=1
I figured this was the best thread for it, since people seem to be discussing these layoffs along with TOR's success.