Insane Metal
Member
You stop it, you. It will obviously be the most advanced GPU EVARRRRRR!
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Rumor: PS5 devkits ~ 13 TFLOPS
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CrustyBritches
Gold Member
I heard from an inside source it was going to be chiplets of butterflies. Just wait.You stop it, you. It will obviously be the most advanced GPU EVARRRRRR!
Kazekage1981
Member
JareBear: Remastered
Banned
SonGoku
Member
Tlou doesn't have much potential for sequels, for all we know they'll end it at tlou2
Also the two team thing is not as simple as you put it, they can work on two titles simultaneously but one is always in the initial planning state and as soon as the other game releases the full staff get working on the other.
I dont care about a hypothetical tlou3 as long as ND next game is a new ip.
Of course it has we expected Sony would work with AMD in getting post Navi features on their custom gpu
AMD Boss says PS5 has some "Special Sauce"
The PlayStation 5 is coming sometime in the future to a store near you. While it hasn't been officially announced by Sony yet, we've seen system architect Mark Cerny beginning to talk about it.www.joyfreak.com
SonGoku
Member
Historically they have been weaker...
I know you joke but that's usually how it works if a graphic feature is supported by consoles there are higher chances of it being better supported and optimized on PC.
Don't worry 8k won't be a thing in consoles until the PS6 Pro. Devs will target 4k approximates (1800p, 1400p) and cb to get the most out of the hw. If the PS5 indeed has RT hw optimizations that means AI cores as well (for denoising) which can be used to for something similar to nvidias DLSS (deep learning super-sampling)
The PS4 GPU sits between 7850 and 7870 CUs wise and sported Async Compute features that only later made their way to future AMD GPU line.
Same for the Pro supporting some Vega features despite being based on Polaris.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
You need to read more on what Sony has done with AMD in the past. You'll be surprised.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Probably not.
You should give me a rundown just in case.DOOM's performance due to heavy async support on PS4 compared to a 7850 was about the only thing that surprised me. I'm chalking that up to the 8 ACEs in the PS4, but I'm not 100% on that. Credit where credit is due, though. FP16 and the butterfly layout Polaris 10 for BC didn't show me much. I was more surprised with the Xbox One X customization and performance.
Freeman454
Member
Zen2 is coming this summer, well over a year before PS5, probably MUCH higher clocked and 100% sure SMT, Navi will also land on PC a year before PS5. By the time PS5 launches, Zen3 (16c/32t), Next-Gen navi successor and High end Navi will be avaible. Loads of DDR5 main ram too. I think on a hardware level its not even close.
Probably not.
DOOM's performance due to heavy async support on PS4 compared to a 7850 was about the only thing that surprised me. I'm chalking that up to the 8 ACEs in the PS4, but I'm not 100% on that. Credit where credit is due, though. FP16 and the butterfly layout Polaris 10 for BC didn't show me much. I was more surprised with the Xbox One X customization and performance.
Its roughly comparable to a 7850, a mid range part from early 2012.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
This was turned into thousands of posts by Tormentos of SW. Perhaps even tens of thousands.
Yeah, I have 7850 2GB and RX 480 8GB and they almost always beat PS4/PS4 Pro. I think DOOM is a notable exception.
I'm expecting the PC version of Navi to do just fine against the PS5/Anaconda.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Now ask yourself why a "mid range" part from early 2012 is able to run a game like Spiderman at 1080p at 30 fps solid.
Freeman454
Member
A HD7850, paired with anything of a CPU and it will run atleast as good, that is, if the game Spiderman was avaible to PC, and optimized for it.
A GTX660 has more theoretical TF, so on Nvidias side i dont really now, but a 660 and much lower you cant go on that side of the fence.
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SonGoku
Member
Whats that?
What about all the exclusives that used it? those don't count now?
Not without compromises, PS4 exclusives rely heavy on async compute
A card from the same power tier as PS4 without the Async Compute features of PS4 will lag behind. See DOOM for example.
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CrustyBritches
Gold Member
A Tormentos is like this...Whats that?
...of PlayStation fans. Hahahaha.
No.
SonGoku
Member
I don't get it just trolling?
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Why would you compare something that doesn't exist on both platforms and has no available performance metrics either way? How would you compare it? Please explain...
I think you're wrong about Sony's 30fps games not running well on 7850, DOOM's 60fps with turd nugget CPU was the hard part. I was talking DOOM on 7850 with turd nugget CPU(8350 downclocked to 1.8GHz, 1 core disable, etc.). With a good CPU and decent OC the 7850 will beat PS4 in DOOM.
Freeman454
Member
They might do, but where the 7850/7870 have less ACE units, they make up for it on other areas. I would say those are the most comparable to the PS4 GPU. They are mid end 2012 parts though, the 7950/7970Ghz 6GB where more in line of high-end 2012 parts from AMD. By late 2013, this was quite a bargain GPU, it was more of a mid end by then as the R9 290X released autumn 2013, it was AMD's new high-end product, and its still quite a performer, its a match for the PS4 Pro in terms of raw specs, five years before.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
The summer of 2013 before the PS4 release you could buy a 7790 1GB for $99(plus 3 games), the 7850 2GB for $150(plus 2 games), or the 7870 2GB for $175(plus 4 games). All 3 of those GPUs would generally outperform the PS4.
SonGoku
Member
Who said i was comparing? Im just stating the importance of async compute as a feature for PS4, its silly to me trying to discredit such a feature and turn this into some kind of PS4 vs PC pissing contest
If it helped PS4 punch above its weight for exclusives then it got the job done.
PS4 is a console limited by TDP and Die space (hence the netbook CPU). Why are you trying to discredit a feature as some meme when in reality allows to make the most out of the system resources?
If you compare a HD 7850 clocked to the same performance (1.8TF-1.9TF) with PS4. Logical thought says that a game using async compute heavily will favor PS4, how is this even up for discussion?
That still doesn't discredit Async features... Without them PS4 would be worse, is that the goal here?
and how much power the 290x sucked? not exactly console friendly
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Insane Metal
Member
Kinda OT but I just saw this video on my YT feed:
And they're talking about Lisa Su's leadership at AMD and the products they'll be focusing on. Lisa said that Sony and Microsoft were their biggest clients.
"Our major customers, Sony Interactive Entertainment LLC and Microsoft Corporation, each accounted for more than 10% of our consolidated revenue for the year ended December 29, 2018" ... "A loss of any of these customers would have a material adverse effect on our business".
So a fifth of AMD's revenue come from these two companies... and that is with declining sales. Imagine with the new generation.
That's how important both Sony and MS are to AMD.
And they're talking about Lisa Su's leadership at AMD and the products they'll be focusing on. Lisa said that Sony and Microsoft were their biggest clients.
"Our major customers, Sony Interactive Entertainment LLC and Microsoft Corporation, each accounted for more than 10% of our consolidated revenue for the year ended December 29, 2018" ... "A loss of any of these customers would have a material adverse effect on our business".
So a fifth of AMD's revenue come from these two companies... and that is with declining sales. Imagine with the new generation.
That's how important both Sony and MS are to AMD.
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CrustyBritches
Gold Member
No. This started because I stated Navi isn't a mystical GPU created by Cerny, and that it will launch this year on PC. I cited 7850(7870-ish)/PS4 and RX 480/PS4 Pro as precedent. Navi 10 will come to PC. The 150W(means 166W in AMD-speak) model will come later this year and I'll buy it and test it.
Do you, or do you not, have performance metrics for what you're talking about? If not, let's not fuck up the thread with more bickering and speculation like we did last time.
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SonGoku
Member
1st party devs talked about using async compute, its disingenuous to claim its a vanilla hd 7850. Cerny dint create anything he just asks AMD for the specifications.
Just because its not used as much by 3rd parties doesn't mean it doesn't exist, that's like saying CELL SPUs didn't matter for PS3 because most devs ignored it.
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Aceofspades
Banned
Haven't you heard? "insiders" said that next Xbox will be using Intel + Nvidia to create this massive performance gap with PS5. AMD CEO doesn't know shit and MS is having unlimited cash
Freeman454
Member
If you optimize for ps4 itl run better and vice versa for a 7850/70.
7950 is on another level, it gains ACEs and much more.
Like said, closest to ps4 is somewhere around 7850/70. It wont be much different for ps5, a one year old (2019), midrange amd gpu (navi10) in 2020. With some modifications like with ps4. Difference is that the cpu fair better, mid range instead of ultra low end, and on par storage (nvme ssd).
Tripolygon
Banned
There is no current modern game engine running on consoles that does not support async compute in one way or another.
Imtjnotu
Member
Tormy will always be my favorite gamespot SW memberA Tormentos is like this...
...of PlayStation fans. Hahahaha.
No.
SonGoku
Member
PS4 is a HD 7850 power wise, with a more advanced feature set, in an apples to apples comparison there is no optimization that will make a vanilla HD 7850 run better since it is essentially the same hw without async compute optimizations.
7950 would beat PS4 based on sheer brute force alone but it should be noted it lacks PS4 8 ACEs that was added to the 200 series
You still don't get the point...PS4 customization is not some silver bullet meant to out perform high end (at the time) GPUs or make a stand against PC. That's some console warrior mentality
Async compute is a feature that helps get the most out of the limited resources on PS4, without those customizations it would be much worse not better.
It might be better on PS5 depending of the feature, hw based RT for example is multiple times faster than software based (no specialized hw), so if RT is one such customization not present in Navi 10/20 it will make a difference. Another good point to keep in mind is that PS5 GPU performance wont be hindered by a weak CPU unlike PS4s.
What's sw? Sony warrior?
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StreetsofBeige
Member
I'm surprised people are arguing over PS4 specs and PC gpus from 6 years ago.
But one thing is true. Consoles have always seemed to get more out its specs than similar spec PCs. Likely due to PC's eating up power and ram for stuff like Windows, firewalls and such.
It wasn't too long ago console like PS2 and XBox OG had ridiculously small amounts of ram like 32-64 mbs of ram. And what churned out was pretty solid. I don't think a PC would even boot up Windows at that time with that little ram never mind trying to run good games on top of the OS.
But one thing is true. Consoles have always seemed to get more out its specs than similar spec PCs. Likely due to PC's eating up power and ram for stuff like Windows, firewalls and such.
It wasn't too long ago console like PS2 and XBox OG had ridiculously small amounts of ram like 32-64 mbs of ram. And what churned out was pretty solid. I don't think a PC would even boot up Windows at that time with that little ram never mind trying to run good games on top of the OS.
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BlueAlpaca
Member
What are those things never before possible? Game mechanics haven't changed in a long time and I don't think they will next-gen, gaming in general is a fairly limited medium.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Just look at this video. This is being done on a GPU that was made 7 years ago!!!!
VR in games has really be the biggest change we've gotten in the last 5 years.
Racer!
Member
Im surprised how long it took for you to understand this. Thats where the additional performance comes from, not from the transistors themselves. Thats why the comparisons you come up with are useless, and why console software perform about 2x better (closed environment). This is why Teslas FDS computer can outperform Nvidias. Or why the Oculus Quest performs better than Gear VR. And why a PC game running on a laptop (which is what PS4 basically is) would never look as good as RDR2.
When you think about what can be achieved with a really efficient powerful cpu, a 13tf gpu, 20gb high bandwith ram, and super high bandwidth storage its pretty mind blowing. It will lead to things never seen before. It has the potential to be a superduper streamlined machine.
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Tqaulity
Member
Umm you do realize that IF PS5 is close to the rumors with 13-14TFLOPS, that puts it a bit above Navi 10 and closer to what is projected for Navi 20. Navi 10 is expected to top out at 10-12TFLOPS but Navi 20 will probably end up around 14-16TFLOPS for the PC part. Navi 20 is also the version that is expected to have hardware RT features which the PS5 is also confirmed to have. The PS5 is likely using a scaled down/underclocked Navi 20 part (for thermals and power consumption constraints).
Point being, PS5 will be using the absolute cutting edge of GPU tech that AMD has to offer in 2020. Comparing to Nvidia is irrelevant since AMD to Nvidia is not apples to apples. But even next year, a 13-14TFLOP AMD GPU based on its latest architecture and featuring cutting edge features like RT and more can HARDLY be called "mid range"
Racer!
Member
My bet is that they are going to use RT mainly for shadows and ambient occlusion (maybe some reflection) which is really performant via RT (and a much better/cleaner solution than shadows maps and other raster tricks). There were some other exciting dynamic really performant RT/hybrid global illumination techniques presented at gdc this year though.
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Wandering Leopard
Member
Question, are people factoring the CPU into their teraflop calculations?
I'm guessing the CPU will range from 400-800 Gflops.
I'm guessing the CPU will range from 400-800 Gflops.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
No! Nobody is factoring that in. All of the numbers have been based on GPU numbers only.
bhunachicken
Member
John Carmack once said that a PC requires double everything to do what a console does. That's sort of expected, however: consoles are fixed-spec machine so you can code right down to the metal.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I completely forgot he said that. Somehow we'll have someone here try to debunk THE John Carmack for some reason.
GermanZepp
Member
I used that carmack quote one time and people told me something like, "That was in the Ps3 era, consoles are basically PC's now".
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JareBear: Remastered
Banned
"8k ready"
I've seen this mentioned a few times in the thread. Is this an honest expectation? Are we really expecting native 8k next gen (for visually intensive games)?
I've seen this mentioned a few times in the thread. Is this an honest expectation? Are we really expecting native 8k next gen (for visually intensive games)?
demigod
Member
Freeman454
Member
Consoles are rumored to be equiped with navi 10 lite, a mid range part also coming to desktop this year. Navi 20 will come at or abit after consoles arrive.
Otherwise all this 'cutting edge RT and more' are just that, buzz words as you have no idea what or how that will be implemented. Its logical that the console parts wont match the desktop ones as the desktop parts arent APU, limited by TDP, size, cost and most inportantly, arent allready locked design one to two years in advance.
AMD and Nvidia both accelerate graphics, just that one does it much faster and more advanced.
John carmack, how does that explain a ~2TF gpu being able to match and outperform in Doom PS4? Might that answer be API's like DX12 and Vulcan, and W10 in general being much more optimized? Xbone family runs sorta W10.
Freeman454
Member
Consoles do enjoy a better optimization, but 2x the performance i find that hard to believe. One doesnt need a 4TF gpu to match PS4 cross plat games.
You wont need a 20TF system to match the PS5's ~10TF.
Highend navi 20 or 'next gen' @16gb with a 16c/32t zen3 cpu on a pcie4.0 and32gb ddr5 system ram and your sure set for improved performance and graphics. Im gonna wait till early 2021 for such a build.
ethomaz
Banned
He said that way before PC moves to more lower APIs.
Today it is not that case anymore.
Exactly... a lot of things happened and APIs on PC started to be more "code to metal".
Today it is more about how much time the dev optimized their game for that specific platform than performance between them... that is why exclusives still shines over multiplatforms.
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Gamernyc78
Banned
It seems ppl forget history. Every single Sony console since ps3 stated it was a certain resolution ready (above its weight in games) but possible for media for the most part such as movies. Ps3 touted 1080, PS4 touted 4K (with only a few games being native 4k but it did apply to media) and next PS5 will be 8K ready whenever Netflix/Amazon streams 8k movies, if ever this gen. By now you should know its not talking about graphically intensive games but mostly media.
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Gamernyc78
Banned
It seems ppl forget history. Every single Sony console stated it was a certain resolution ready above its weight in games but possible for media such as movies. Ps3 touted 1080, PS4 touted 4K (with only a few games being native 4k but it did apply to media) and next PS5 will be 8K ready whenever Netflix streams 8j movies if ever this gen. By now you should know its not talking about graphically intensive games but mostly media.
Gamernyc78
Banned
Sorry for duplicate underground subway reception caused that.
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Imtjnotu
Member
I'm pretty sure they mean something with one heck of an 8k upscale and native 8k blu ray support. Sony in the early days of 4k and even now have had the best conversion for upscaling. Also with the A7Siii coming soon and it's 8k supposed video recording, I think an 8k player would not be far fetched
EDIT: sorry guys for the grammar and spelling mistakes. I've been drinking all day @ Catalina Island...
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Racer!
Member
On optimized software you will see about 2x. Its not just about the individual components (coding to the metal), its also about how they fit together/system design. And how you can wrap gameplay and code around a fixed target. 2X is actually conservative.
Everything points to PS5 having 12-14TF btw.
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