Slings and Arrows
Banned
8k ready is a marketing ploy to divert attention from the Xbox 4K strategy of "best place to play 4k" (games that is, because there will be no disc drives for 4k movies).
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Rumor: PS5 devkits ~ 13 TFLOPS
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8k ready is a marketing ploy to divert attention from the Xbox 4K strategy of "best place to play 4k" (games that is, because there will be no disc drives for 4k movies).
Stuart360
Member
Maybe 2 times in the odd game, but overall console games are better optimized than PC vesions.
My PC (I5-6600K, 16GB DDR4 Ram, GTX 980ti) beats the OneX on paper, but there are quite a few games that run at 4k native on the X that i cant run at 4k on my PC, even when locking the game to 30fps.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
You can't be serious. lol
Insane Metal
Member
I have a feeling that the XBox 2 CPU will be significantly stronger than the PS5's. Phil seemed to be really concerned about the lack of CPU power for 60FPS games... remember his interview from a few months ago?
Stuart360
Member
Imo 80+% of next gen games will still be 30fps, as is always with every gen. Maybe we will get a higher percentage in the first couple of years with all the cross gen games, but the vast majority will still be 30fps.
jonnyp
Member
So you think MS will go with a 12 core? Don't see it myself.
alabtrosMyster
Member
I wouldn't bet on it.
Freeman454
Member
My RX580 OC with i7 6700 has no problems beating the xbox x version, its slightly more powerfull then the One X gpu but its ballpark One X GPU. Yes the CPU is about 100x more powerfull but its impossible to match the Jaguar as theres no tablet cpu's avaible to PC as of right now.
Well, ive never seen it with the 8th gen, its just not there. I see too many GTX660, GTX670, 7870 etc being compared and often even performing better. In no way is the PS4 even with optimizations matching a double as powerfull PC.
Your arguments of 2x the power needed holds true for the 6th gen, where API's and Windows were quite pre-historic. OG Xbox wasnt more then a PC, P3 733, Geforce 3 with extre vertex shader, 64mb ddr pool and a harddisk. It ran Doom III very respectable, even with DD5.1.
Even Far Cry, Half Life 2 were running great considering.... These were high-end pc games for their time, but ran on a P3 733/GF3 system with just 64mb ram. Then you needed about 2x the GPU and CPU power, and much more ram to boot.
These days though, after almost two decades of improvements in API's and windows, this isnt so much the case anymore as it once was, and i suspect optimizations to increase in the future. Even in the console space, devs need to code for two or more platforms from just either MS or Sony.
Slings and Arrows
Banned
Why not?
Look how much easy ground Sony gained at the start of this gen. Rumours were that Sony were going to copy Microsoft with the DRM ideas, then they saw how unpopular it was and they won E3 on buzzwords. No DRM, 8gb GDDR5, No always online, no restrictions on sharing etc etc.
Microsoft have been able to turn the tables lately by pushing "most powerful console". While it is the most powerful console, it's a bit of an unfair advantage, seems as the Xbox one X is a completely new machine (apart form the CPU).
It wouldn't be too far fetched to see Microsoft naming their 4th generation of xbox consoles the Xbox 4k. I mean come on, the adverts write themselves. "best place for 4k content, games, movies, most powerful 4k machine etc etc". Remember how 'important' HD and 1080p was in gaming and the wider entertainment industry? Games originally had 'HD' as a selling point. Do you think Microsoft won't do the same this time around with 4k?
Also, HD remakes/HD remasters sold an absolute fuck ton this gen. Why not a 4k Remake/4K remaster of some HD games? it stands to reason that both companies would. Best place for 4k remakes is the xbox 4k etc.
Sony throw out a random 8k marketing for no reason. Knowing that the 8k format is years away. IMO they did it to one-up Microsoft.
Yes, this theory relies on the 4th xbox being called the xbox 4k, but again, why wouldn't it be for called that? it's easy marketing (IMO of course.)
FWIW I don't take sides I've loved and loathed Microsoft and Sony the same.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
DOOM is a 3rd party engine runs on the fucking Switch. A mobile architecture. It is a highly scalable engine and proves nothing.
You know what won't run on a Switch or that $375 PC with the same performance/graphics settings? Most first party PS4 games, like GoW.
Why are there those who still deny optimizations that the PC does not have the luxury of, and I love my PC?
You know what won't run on a Switch or that $375 PC with the same performance/graphics settings? Most first party PS4 games, like GoW.
Why are there those who still deny optimizations that the PC does not have the luxury of, and I love my PC?
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Freeman454
Member
Well, we cant compare GoW, as it isnt on other platforms. All things theoretical, the only thing we can do is compare in real world with software thats avaible to both. Offcourse GoW would run fine on that PC if optimized, its a 30fps with dips title afterall, at 1080p. Its mostly artwork that makes those titles stand out on PS4.
Racer!
Member
On multiplatform titles (PC/consoles) you will not see 2x of course. You can often see some improvements though. Its optimized for fixed target I am talking about.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
You actually think Sony changed their whole generation worth of plans last minute like that? Think about it. Who does it help to spread a "rumor" around like that? 8K was stated because it's built into the HDMI 2.1 format. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less. Sony didn't even brag about it. It was just a one-liner in a big article.
Freeman454
Member
Yeah.... but offcourse lol. Whole different story then. Something thats only coded for just one single platform will enjoy more optimizations. But you wont ever need 2x the power in a pc to match a console, not nowadays atleast. A game thats only on Xbox, switch or PC will also see better optimizations there then if it were on all platforms.
Going to be intresting to see Detroit Become Humon on pc, a graphically intensive AAA Sony game, what kind of HW one needs to about match base PS4 for that.
Edit: Somethings that not avaible on another platform doesnt even need a discussion as its not even avaible there then.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
But it being exclusive to a console "IS" the point that we are all trying to make to you. That is the bonus.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Nah, it will perform far worse than the PS4 due to the extra ACE advantages and other tweaks it has.
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CrustyBritches
Gold Member
We've gone from using Carmack/DOOM as an authority to trashing them in a single page. Nice.
DOOM/id Tech 6 is an amazing technical showcase. Makes use of Async compute, shader intrinsics, and frame flip optimizations according to AMD's detailing of DOOM's Vulkan implemenation. PS4's 1080p(mostly)/60fps implementation is actually quite impressive, too. Yes, even compared to 1st-party.
Here's DOOM: PS4 Pro vs RX 480(910MHz core, PS4 Pro settings)...
I had the Crimson Performance overlay going, but it doesn't show when capturing Vulkan. What's interesting is that at these settings the RX 480 is only pulling around 110W max, most lower. I was recording a 1440p vid and running all sorts of other programs too. There still seems to be plenty of headroom for better quality settings and the textures on PS4 Pro still look less clear.
It's interesting that PS4 Pro can't handle that DoF effect seen in the opening sequence and during glory kills. DF mentioned it drops to ~50fps. That's probably memory bandwidth issues.
On a side note, this means the Polaris 10 in the PS4 Pro might only be pulling 110W out of the 150W total system consumption. With $399 msrp and a cheap blower that's what you get for GPU power budget. An extra year, $499 msrp, Hovis tuning and vapor chamber cooler get you performance more in line with a full fat RX 480.
DOOM/id Tech 6 is an amazing technical showcase. Makes use of Async compute, shader intrinsics, and frame flip optimizations according to AMD's detailing of DOOM's Vulkan implemenation. PS4's 1080p(mostly)/60fps implementation is actually quite impressive, too. Yes, even compared to 1st-party.
Here's DOOM: PS4 Pro vs RX 480(910MHz core, PS4 Pro settings)...
I had the Crimson Performance overlay going, but it doesn't show when capturing Vulkan. What's interesting is that at these settings the RX 480 is only pulling around 110W max, most lower. I was recording a 1440p vid and running all sorts of other programs too. There still seems to be plenty of headroom for better quality settings and the textures on PS4 Pro still look less clear.
It's interesting that PS4 Pro can't handle that DoF effect seen in the opening sequence and during glory kills. DF mentioned it drops to ~50fps. That's probably memory bandwidth issues.
On a side note, this means the Polaris 10 in the PS4 Pro might only be pulling 110W out of the 150W total system consumption. With $399 msrp and a cheap blower that's what you get for GPU power budget. An extra year, $499 msrp, Hovis tuning and vapor chamber cooler get you performance more in line with a full fat RX 480.
bitbydeath
Member
Your missing one important aspect.
Sony has 8K TV's to sell.
That is their true agenda.
Freeman454
Member
Thats also the reason you wont need 2x the power, as exclusives to other platforms arent a choice anyways.
Or it will match or exceed due to other strengths over the PS4 GPU. If talking about a 7950 or higher, GoW would run much better on it. Or any other AAA exclusive. Not even counting CPU advantage.
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Freeman454
Member
Yes it makes use of the PS4's ACE units etc aswell, quite impressive graphics, maybe not the art style of Sony games, but technically up there. Good optimized aswell. Great for tests for us.
That actually makes sense, its a double thing for Sony then. Good for future proofing and they could get to sell more 8k TV's. Its far away but someday it will be the 4k of today. It hasnt got much to do with gaming though, on a serious level.
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Burrito Bandito
Banned
the ps4 and xb1 difference was marginal and look how far fanboys took that one
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Yep...
It sounds similar to how Sony was threading some graphics tasks and post-process effects on the Cell.
P.S.- Show me a Sony 1st-party FPS game that runs 1080p/60fps on PS4 and has substantially better features...
P.P.S.- This reaffirms my guess that next-gen console GPUs will have around 130W power budget.
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Freeman454
Member
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TLZ
Banned
Coming soon with FP8.
Silver Wattle
Member
5nm High Performance will be the node they use next, TSMC haven't revealed much about it though so not much to base estimates on.
Having said that, 7nm HP is not as dense as 7nm EUV, and 5nm HP will use EUV, so more than 2 times density is plausible.
So 2 x PS5 GPU chiplets on 5nm HP clocked 10% higher could provide 25TF+ for roughly equal power consumption.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
25 TFs sounds insane lol.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Will they even have the silicon budget for that in a single SOC?
StreetsofBeige
Member
A special measure specially designed for dick waving contests.
TLZ
Banned
flop
/flɒp/
Learn to pronounce
verb
- 2.
INFORMAL
(of a performer or show) be completely unsuccessful; fail totally.
"the show flopped in London"
Just playing with you 
It is how graphics card power is measured
It is how graphics card power is measured
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wordslaughter
Banned
I can't really think of many examples of a console game running better than it would on a PC with a comparable GPU.
Yes console optimizations are a thing but the performance that you gain from them ( this gen ) was always less than what was lost due to having to use a Jaguar CPU.
I bet if we looked we could find MORE examples of console games running WORSE than they do on a PC with comparable GPU. This jaguar bottleneck shows up in games that seem to effortlessly run at 60fps on PC ( again with comparable GPU ) but wind up running at a locked 30fps on console.
Yes console optimizations are a thing but the performance that you gain from them ( this gen ) was always less than what was lost due to having to use a Jaguar CPU.
I bet if we looked we could find MORE examples of console games running WORSE than they do on a PC with comparable GPU. This jaguar bottleneck shows up in games that seem to effortlessly run at 60fps on PC ( again with comparable GPU ) but wind up running at a locked 30fps on console.
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Freeman454
Member
Also API's on PC have improved greatly, its another aspect to the whole.
Slings and Arrows
Banned
They have 8k TV's to sell in a few years. No way is 8k going to be their main focus while 4k is still 'new' in the mainstream
Insane Metal
Member
I was going to call you dick, then I saw the spoilerflop
/flɒp/
Learn to pronounce
verb
So, Tera flop = super unbelievable levels of failing hard. Both will fail miserably. They shall disappear into the dark abyss for eternity.
- 2.
INFORMAL
(of a performer or show) be completely unsuccessful; fail totally.
"the show flopped in London"
Just playing with you
It is how graphics card power is measured
you're still a dick tho
bitbydeath
Member
They hit shelves next month actually.
Slings and Arrows
Banned
I'm aware of that. Just like when 4k dropped though, the demand isn't there. By that I mean, sure some people want 8K TV's, but the enthusiasts like us and the mainstream like johnny fortnite, aren't scrambling to get 8K Tv's. 4k content is shite as it stands now, let alone 8k content.
I remember people talking about 4k at the start of this gen, but it hasn't really taken off yet. I'm sure a few tv's have been sold on the old 4k hook, just like big HDTVs were sold around 2005/2006.
Aceofspades
Banned
I bet PS5 and Anaconda will have around %10 GPU power difference while having exact CPUs.
btw PS4 to Xbox one difference was around 40% GPU power with RAM advantages for PS4. then we had X vs PRO carrying similar power gap in favor of Xbox.
Gone are the days we have mysterious consoles architectures with huge advantages or features.
Both PS5 and Anaconda are tied to AMD APU designs which are reaching their limit now, I expect PS5 to have 56CUs clocked at 1.8Ghz (as these rumors point out) and assuming Xbox will go with maximum power available now in this architecture 64Cus at 1.8Ghz ( very unlikely since getting full CUs will be costly and fab yeilds will be really low) in this case we will end up with PS5 at 12.9TF vs Anac at 14.7TF a 12% increase in GPU power... very marginal
Only scenario that can cause huge power gap is increaing GPU clock speeds by either of them, although I think the rumored 1.8Ghz for PS5 is really high in console form. in short I both PS5 and Anaconda to be extremely close power wise.
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CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Tera as in "trillion" and FLOPS as in "Floating Point Operations Per Second". It's a generic measurement of compute strength in a processor. For modern GPUs you take the number of shader cores(aka stream processors) x 2(# of 32-bit operation per cycle) x core clock speed. Then you divide by a thousand to get GFLOPS or a million to get TFLOPS.
For RX 480 GPU:
2304(stream processors) x 2(ops per cycle) x 1266MHz(core clock) = 5,833,728
5,833,728/1000 = 5,833GFLOPS...divide by another 1000 for TFLOPS = 5.8TFLOPS.
For PS4 GPU:
1152(stream processors) x 2(ops per cycle) x 800MHz(core clock) = 1,843,200
1,843,200/1,000,000 = 1.84TFLOPS
For Xbox One X GPU:
2560(stream processors) x 2(ops per cycle) x 1172MHz(core clock) = 6,000,640
6,000,640/1,000,000 = 6TF
2304(stream processors) x 2(ops per cycle) x 1266MHz(core clock) = 5,833,728
5,833,728/1000 = 5,833GFLOPS...divide by another 1000 for TFLOPS = 5.8TFLOPS.
For PS4 GPU:
1152(stream processors) x 2(ops per cycle) x 800MHz(core clock) = 1,843,200
1,843,200/1,000,000 = 1.84TFLOPS
For Xbox One X GPU:
2560(stream processors) x 2(ops per cycle) x 1172MHz(core clock) = 6,000,640
6,000,640/1,000,000 = 6TF
Note that compute strength is just one element of a GPU's game performance. In mining, AMD did really well relative to Nvidia because mining requires a lot of compute performance and uncompressed memory. Go over to games and Nvidia typically has much better perf/flop because they use better/different memory compression, and features like tiled cache. Before Vega, AMD's pixel engine had to route through a slow memory controller before having access to L2 cache, with Vega they supposedly fixed that, but the implementation didn't work well or the bottleneck moved to a different area. Other factors like effective memory bandwidth affects the performance as well.
TLZ
Banned
I like to playI was going to call you dick, then I saw the spoiler
you're still a dick tho
Edit: How do you do that foggy stuff?
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Insane Metal
Member
This needs to be highlighted here. I don't think people realize how far pc's have come in being optimized, and how consoles moving to x86 have helped tremendously in making the pc platform scale better. You can expect equivalent performance on ps5 as a pc with the same specs. However, the ps5 will always have a more consistent performance than the pc, and that is the only thing that console development provides. Frame times are incredibly smooth, resulting in less judder and more responsive controls. Hence why a 30fps game on console feels and plays much more smoothly than a pc.
bitbydeath
Member
I know but consoles are long term machines that are made to last 6-7 years so it makes sense to support it now.
TeamGhobad
Banned
reddit "leaker" on RAM
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SonGoku
Member
Old news, not very believable
Pro refresh should ensure ultra quality graphics at native 4k, a 60 fps mode and of course finally enough power for VR
At 5nm they should, the question is how do they solve compatibility between GCN and post GCN?
Pro refresh should ensure ultra quality graphics at native 4k, a 60 fps mode and of course finally enough power for VR
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TLZ
Banned
Whoa. So cool. Thanks!Hahah
From the menu where you find Bold, Italic, Underline, etc: Insert -> Inline Spoiler
Insane Metal
Member
Now that I know what HBCC is (someone here explained it to me), that actually sounds really good. It's an odd solution for sure, but it still sounds nice. Can't wait to know the truth about both consoles. 
TeamGhobad
Banned
splitting the pool is a cost savouring measure though.
SonGoku
Member
Now that I know what HBCC is (someone here explained it to me), that actually sounds really good. It's an odd solution for sure, but it still sounds nice. Can't wait to know the truth about both consoles.
The leak doesn't sound good at all... the small 8GB pool is not even fast enough to pick up the ddr4 slack.
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Imtjnotu
Member
If they are both using zen 2 the only way it can be stronger is with higher clocks and better cooling. If not both will be the same
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