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[From The Dust]

Unless...mini-BDs?

they would still hold more than a traditional dual-layer dvd right? I'm sure some will find an excuse though

 

[wsippel]

not really a misunderstanding. Sony, Philips and Panasonic are the major players in the Blu-ray Disc Association; holding the most patents... iirc Sony even owns the Blu-ray logo.

so yea, adopting blu-ray = indirectly french kissing Sony.

No idea who owns the DVD logo, but you might have noticed that there is no DVD logo on the Wii nor the Gamecube. The reason for that is that Nintendo uses media that are physically DVDs, but don't use the DVD format. They could do the same thing with Blu-ray, creating their own, incompatible format using the same technology. No Blu-ray logo, no royalties.

 

[Neo C.]

I read a lot here that the timing of Nintendo's launch would be awkward because its so early in comparison to their competition.

It's interesting to remember that the original Playstation was launched in 1994 in Japan, only two weeks after Donkey Kong Country came out. Same deal in the U.S., when it came out in 1995 two months before Donkey Kong Country 2.

It launched with a port of Doom and the original Ridge Racer as its best games. It would almost be two whole years before the games that became iconic for the system would appear. Somehow I think Nintendo will be able to create a little more early demand than that.

That's what I said in multiple threads. If Nintendo really got a two years headstart (which is unlikely, in my opinion), the competition would fight a very difficult uphill battle.

I don't know why so many people believe a huge headstart would be a disadvantage for a company with a huge warchest and lots of stamina.

 

[boyshine]

I always thought the people who only played COD and/or Madden, or the people who only played one type of genre should be called "casual."

Casual = playing something now and then, mostly with friends present (not online).
Hard core = playing something obsessively, to reach a set goal or excel competitively in a specific game or game mode.

Casual games exist as they're made to entertain a group of people for a short while.
Hard core games don't as it's only defined by the player.

That's my definition.

 

[PantherLotus]

That's not how audience segmentation should be approached, now matter how good it makes you guys feel about your hobby.

 

[phisheep]

Casual = playing something now and then, mostly with friends present (not online).
Hard core = playing something obsessively, to reach a set goal or excel competitively in a specific game or game mode.

Casual games exist as they're made to entertain a group of people for a short while.
Hard core games don't as it's only defined by the player.

That's my definition.

Before this stuff gets too far, might I refer you to this post ... which a number of people seemed to find hit the spot, or at least got close.

 

[Koren]

That's what I said in multiple threads. If Nintendo really got a two years headstart (which is unlikely, in my opinion), the competition would fight a very difficult uphill battle.

The comparison is not correct, though. The first years of PSOne was really bad. It took a Sega "failure" (too many products in a short period didn't help), a Nintendo "failure", and a strong support from 3rd party editors to really launch the PSOne.

Should Nintendo launch with a 2-years headstart, they have to grab a market share, because I really think that there won't be large failures from Sony/Microsoft.

That being said, I'm not convinced that a large headstart is a bad or a good thing per se. I completely depends on the product (as it should).

 

[Eteric Rice]

I think one of the reasons they're adding screens to the controller is to give people that play together at home, the ability to have their own screens for multiplayer games.

 

[ReyVGM]

I always thought the people who only played COD and/or Madden, or the people who only played one type of genre should be called "casual."

You speak the truth sir.

 

[DragonKnight]

You speak the truth sir.

I dunno. If I only play one game but I play that game day and night, I'd have to argue that such a person is pretty hardcore.

 

[Kung Fu Grip]

Before this stuff gets too far, might I refer you to this post ... which a number of people seemed to find hit the spot, or at least got close.

But now your just making up your own definition(s). The basicdefinitions of those terms (casual, hardcore and core gamers) are pretty much what they are. They exist for a reason.

Then you have people, like they the posters above, who have their own definitions.

 

[phisheep]

I must admit I am none too sure about where Microsft and Sony might find an advantage in console power this coming generation.

Not one that makes sufficient difference anyhow.

Thing is, once you get beyond the stage of 'looks shitty on a HDTV' the incremental benefits of all this graphics power are relatively tiny. Nowhere near as large as they have been this gen with the HD/SD split - and remember there are still hordes of people playing PS360s on SDTVs. Sure, it'll make a difference to the graphics nerds, and it might make a difference in reviews along those lines, but I can't see that it's going to make an enormous impact on the great mass of players.

Network loyalty and game exclusives will be the key differentiators. But put in too much power - so much that development costs go up even more - and the chance of game exclusives diminishes hugely unless there is either massive moneyhatting or a runaway winner in the marketplace.

So I don't understand what's behind the presumption that the successors to Xbox360 and PS3 will benefit in any significant way from big increases in power. And if they don't, then launching early seems like the right thing to do.

 

[Plinko]

Thing is, once you get beyond the stage of 'looks shitty on a HDTV' the incremental benefits of all this graphics power are relatively tiny. Nowhere near as large as they have been this gen with the HD/SD split - and remember there are still hordes of people playing PS360s on SDTVs. Sure, it'll make a difference to the graphics nerds, and it might make a difference in reviews along those lines, but I can't see that it's going to make an enormous impact on the great mass of players.

This is something I've been saying for weeks now. We're at a point where it won't matter to the vast majority of buyers.

 

[Talladega Knight]

I dunno. If I only play one game but I play that game day and night, I'd have to argue that such a person is pretty hardcore.

i agree

 

[Mithos]

they would still hold more than a traditional dual-layer dvd right? I'm sure some will find an excuse though

Yeah a one layered 8cm Blu-Ray is about ~16.5gb or ~33gb for dual layer.

Edit:
Might be wrong, checking about it now.

Edit2:
Seems like its about half of what I wrote (7.5gb single layer), only some TDK articles show up from 2006 when 8cm Blu-Ray states 16.5gb and 33gb (guess its that I remembered from).

 

[thehillissilent]

This is something I've been saying for weeks now. We're at a point where it won't matter to the vast majority of buyers.

I think the concentration as far as graphics are concerned should be on animation and physics. I like the facial capture tech in LA. Noire and the Euphoria tech. Also, realistic lighting makes a big difference as well.

 

[wsippel]

It seems that Wei Yen, owner of iQue, AiLive and BroadOn/ IGWare, founder of ArtX, former member of the board at MoSys and senior vice president of SGI and developer of Nintendos 3D API GX, recently patented a concept that's surprisingly similar to what Nintendo is supposedly doing with Café:

Techniques for providing a hybrid platform for video games are disclosed. To enjoy the video and audio quality a TV could provide, all game actions with a video game are provided via a TV. However, the video game itself is running on a generic personal computer (PC). In one embodiment, a game hub is provided to receive from a game controller various game actions by a game player with the video game. The game hub provides an (wired or wireless) interface for transferring signals representing the game actions to the PC, in return the PC provides an uncompressed digital stream to the TV for display.

Patent US 2010113156 (A1) - Hybrid platform for video games

 

[NEO0MJ]

This is something I've been saying for weeks now. We're at a point where it won't matter to the vast majority of buyers.

But if Sony and Microsoft do go the high power route Nintendo's next system better have the specs needed to run perfect ports of multi plat games.

 

[thehillissilent]

At $300-$400, Nintendo is going have to put a good bit in there to get consumers to bite.

It shouldn't go above $325. Over $325, they need to offer a pack-in game (that is good).

 

[Mr_Brit]

I must admit I am none too sure about where Microsft and Sony might find an advantage in console power this coming generation.

Not one that makes sufficient difference anyhow.

Thing is, once you get beyond the stage of 'looks shitty on a HDTV' the incremental benefits of all this graphics power are relatively tiny. Nowhere near as large as they have been this gen with the HD/SD split - and remember there are still hordes of people playing PS360s on SDTVs. Sure, it'll make a difference to the graphics nerds, and it might make a difference in reviews along those lines, but I can't see that it's going to make an enormous impact on the great mass of players.

Network loyalty and game exclusives will be the key differentiators. But put in too much power - so much that development costs go up even more - and the chance of game exclusives diminishes hugely unless there is either massive moneyhatting or a runaway winner in the marketplace.

So I don't understand what's behind the presumption that the successors to Xbox360 and PS3 will benefit in any significant way from big increases in power. And if they don't, then launching early seems like the right thing to do.

Totally agree and that is why I think Nintendo have a very tough battle ahead as they've proven that they're unwilling/can't support a modern online infrastructure and this will turn off third parties and hardcore gamers who see a modern online infrastucture as essential in the future. The 3DS was their chance to turn back their position on online and we've seen what they did, no online store, friend codes, no messaging, no cross game party chat, cross game invites etc. There is no way Nintendo turn it all around in one year after the 3DS and deliver a competent online service and that is why they'll struggle just as much if not more next gen.

 

[bidaum]

It seems that Wei Yen, owner of iQue, AiLive and BroadOn/ IGWare, founder of ArtX, former member of the board at MoSys and senior vice president of SGI and developer of Nintendos 3D API GX, recently patented a concept that's surprisingly similar to what Nintendo is supposedly doing with Café:


Patent US 2010113156 (A1) - Hybrid platform for video games

How is that different than any other console? I don't really understand the distinction being made.

 

[Hero of Legend]

they would still hold more than a traditional dual-layer dvd right? I'm sure some will find an excuse though

http://i55.tinypic.com/330vho4.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#Mini_Blu-ray_Disc

7.5-7.8 GB, still way higher than the 4.7 single-layer Wii discs, but a tad short of the 8.5-8.7 of dual-layered ones, to my knowledge, only Brawl, MPT, Rabbids Party Collection, Sakura Wars (thank you TheLastCandle!) and Metroid: Other M (thank you Chico Terry!) used dual-layered discs.

It's a possibility for sure. Surely a lot cheaper than going with regular-sized ones (but a lot of memory is sacrificed).

It'd be a worthy upgrade, I mean 360 games used DVD just fine, do all 360 games used DL as opposed to SL, as in use up more than 4.7GB?

Yeah a one layered 8cm Blu-Ray is about ~16,5gb or ~33gb for dual layer.

Edit:
Might be wrong, checking about it now.

I saw that with TDK was seemingly making those, but the articles were from around 2006-2007. Not sure if those materialized.

 

[crisdecuba]

Someone's probably already mentioned this (and if no one has, I'm sure many have thought of this), but if the "stream the game to the controller if someone else needs the TV" feature is real, then that will be a *huge* draw for parents who hate having to share the TV with their kids' video habits.

This might be *the* feature that differentiates it enough in the eyes of casual consumers, helping to ensure that when it comes down to choosing between systems of similar graphical capabilities, they choose Nintendo.

 

[Bizzyb]

No idea who owns the DVD logo, but you might have noticed that there is no DVD logo on the Wii nor the Gamecube. The reason for that is that Nintendo uses media that are physically DVDs, but don't use the DVD format. They could do the same thing with Blu-ray, creating their own, incompatible format using the same technology. No Blu-ray logo, no royalties.

Or they could....

Last I heard Nintendo was investing in this new technology using holographic data storage. Don't be surprised if the rumors turn out to be true in 2 months

http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Data-Storage/Nintendo-Reviving-Holographic-Storage/

http://www.shacknews.com/article/53945/nintendo-exploring-holographic-data-storage

edit: Nintendo has been spending a shit-ton of money in R&D over the last 4 years. Wouldn't surprised me if they have been working on ways to bring this tech to the market. It could also curb piracy. The only reason they went with DVD this generation was because mini DVDs had too many limitations in data storage that ended up really hurting the GameCube and at the time of Wii's launch holographic data storage was still under-developed and unproven.

and something for you guys to chew at

edit: more reliable source

http://www.whattheyplay.com/blog/2008/09/30/new-wii-due-by-2011/

 

[bidaum]

Someone's probably already mentioned this (and if no one has, I'm sure many have thought of this), but if the "stream the game to the controller if someone else needs the TV" feature is real, then that will be a *huge* draw for parents who hate having to share the TV with their kids' video habits.

This might be *the* feature that differentiates it enough in the eyes of casual consumers, helping to ensure that when it comes down to choosing between systems of similar graphical capabilities, they choose Nintendo.

I hope that's not the selling point though... it'd be a shame to have all these weird sounding controller possibilities come true just to sell to parents.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

Lol people still believe they're going to use holographic discs?

Blu-ray won. There's no shame in choosing the winning format.

 

[thehillissilent]

I hope that's not the selling point though... it'd be a shame to have all these weird sounding controller possibilities come true just to sell to parents.

Well, I think a decent chunk of the rumored cost to manufacture the system ($350-$400) comes mainly from the controller.

 

[KAL2006]

I must admit I am none too sure about where Microsft and Sony might find an advantage in console power this coming generation.

Not one that makes sufficient difference anyhow.

Thing is, once you get beyond the stage of 'looks shitty on a HDTV' the incremental benefits of all this graphics power are relatively tiny. Nowhere near as large as they have been this gen with the HD/SD split - and remember there are still hordes of people playing PS360s on SDTVs. Sure, it'll make a difference to the graphics nerds, and it might make a difference in reviews along those lines, but I can't see that it's going to make an enormous impact on the great mass of players.

Network loyalty and game exclusives will be the key differentiators. But put in too much power - so much that development costs go up even more - and the chance of game exclusives diminishes hugely unless there is either massive moneyhatting or a runaway winner in the marketplace.

So I don't understand what's behind the presumption that the successors to Xbox360 and PS3 will benefit in any significant way from big increases in power. And if they don't, then launching early seems like the right thing to do.

Well it's all about the exclusives
Sony and Nintendo have the advantages with exclusives, this gen alone Sony has heavily invested in new IP like inFamous, Uncharted, MotoStorm, LittleBigPlanet, Heavy Rain, Resistance. They also have tons of old IPs like Twisted Metal, God of War, Ratchet, Jak, Sly, Gran Turismo.
Nintendo have their classic IPs like Mario, Metroid, Pikmin, Zelda, WiiSports and etc.
It's only Microsoft who are lacking with IPs, the only notable IPs they have are Halo, Gears (which isn't owned by MS) Fable, PGR and Forza. All the other games they get are basically on other platforms.
Both Sony and Ninendo got plenty of studios, where as Microsoft are lacking (they lost Bungie, Bizzare, Ensemble).

You are right about network loyalty
People who are already invested in PSN/Live are most likely to stay with that network which means they will have to buy their next console with the same company to continue to use that profile on the new console. Who would want to not keep their achievements, friendslist, digital games for their next console.

As for other differentiators between console, I think Microsoft has the best chance here, they have Kinect, an improved HD camera Kinect with better tracking part of the next console would be quite huge.

 

[Bizzyb]

Lol people still believe they're going to use holographic discs?

Blu-ray won. There's no shame in choosing the winning format.

Never know...dang that website is blocked. Oh well, the story is from 2008 and basically tells about the increased R&D spending by 10x as much as it did for Wii development. Are we allowed to post anything from blocked websites?

 

[crisdecuba]

I hope that's not the selling point though... it'd be a shame to have all these weird sounding controller possibilities come true just to sell to parents.

Different selling points for different demographics, no? I can imagine kids telling their parents that it's okay or beneficial to get the new systems because "we won't have to fight over the tv anymore" while they're internally just clammoring for the next Zelda / Mario / etc.

 

[TheLastCandle]

7.5 GB, still way higher than the 4.7 single-layer Wii discs, but a tad short of the 8.5-8.7 of dual-layered ones, to my knowledge, only Brawl, MPT, and Rabbids Party Collection used dual-layered discs.

Off topic really, but Sakura Wars: So Long, My Love was a dual layer disc as well.

 

[Cow Mengde]

Lol people still believe they're going to use holographic discs?

Blu-ray won. There's no shame in choosing the winning format.

Holographic provides faster load times.

 

[Eteric Rice]

The 3DS was their chance to turn back their position on online and we've seen what they did, no online store, friend codes, no messaging, no cross game party chat, cross game invites etc. There is no way Nintendo turn it all around in one year after the 3DS and deliver a competent online service and that is why they'll struggle just as much if not more next gen.

Isn't most of that stuff coming in like May or June?

 

[thehillissilent]

Different selling points for different demographics, no? I can imagine kids telling their parents that it's okay or beneficial to get the new systems because "we won't have to fight over the tv anymore" while they're internally just clammoring for the next Zelda / Mario / etc.

Kinda of makes me want Sony to do a cheap PS3/PSP2 bundle that advertises the same so they can revamp the RemotePlay capability since it's totally feasible now.

 

[Bizzyb]

Isn't most of that stuff coming in like May or June?

yes, most of it.

Also the friend codes are now no different than gamertags so please, shut up, crisdecuba

 

[Hero of Legend]

Off topic really, but Sakura Wars: So Long, My Love was a dual layer disc as well.

Ah, thank you.

 

[KAL2006]

yes, most of it.

Also the friend codes are now no different than gamertags so pease, shut up.

I thought with friends code both users have to add each other, where as with Gamertags, someone simply sends a request and the other person either accepts of declines. Nintendo's way is still lacking.

 

[WonderbreadUSA]

Lol people still believe they're going to use holographic discs?

Blu-ray won. There's no shame in choosing the winning format.

Holographic discs haven't even been released, so its a fallacy to say Blu-ray has won over holographic discs as a format. Holographic discs wont be in the N6 because its still to expensive and nobody needs 1TB of space for video games yet. Holographic discs are a future format. It's what is likely to come after Blu-ray.

 

[wsippel]

and something for you guys to chew at

http://wii.*****.com/article.php?artid=12844

Quoting myself from a few pages ago:

We know that they spent a rather huge amount in 2007, $370 million to be exact, after spending $103 million in 2006 (and only $34 million in 2003). Several sites considered that fact newsworthy back then. Yet it seems like they spent another $370 million in 2008, $430 million in 2009, and $489 million in 2010.

 

[[Nintex]]

Never know...dang that website is blocked. Oh well, the story is from 2008 and basically tells about the increased R&D spending by 10x as much as it did for Wii development. Are we allowed to post anything from blocked websites?

Yeah you can look that up in Nintendo's reports, $596 million was projected for 2011, $400+ for 2010 and 2009 as well so over the last 3 years they spend about $1.5 billion in R&D.

 

[Instro]

I thought with friends code both users have to add each other, where as with Gamertags, someone simply sends a request and the other person either accepts of declines. Nintendo's way is still lacking.

I believe the ability to add people the way you are talking about is something they are adding along with the other features when the shop launches or something.

 

[TheLastCandle]

Ah, thank you.

Of course!

 

[NEO0MJ]

yes, most of it.

Also the friend codes are now no different than gamertags so please, shut up, crisdecuba

The problem with them though is that you can't add people you randomly met or send messages. At least that's what I heard(don't have an online game yet).

 

[watershed]

I believe the ability to add people the way you are talking about is something they are adding along with the other features when the shop launches or something.

I haven't read any indication of this. Do you have a source?

 

[bidaum]

Different selling points for different demographics, no? I can imagine kids telling their parents that it's okay or beneficial to get the new systems because "we won't have to fight over the tv anymore" while they're internally just clammoring for the next Zelda / Mario / etc.

Yeah, but the screen in the controller scheme sounds crummy to me so the hope is, at least on my end, that Nintendo will design it well and it'll have some new thing to add to gameplay and gaming in general. I just hope we don't get a wonky controller for a selling point that I personally am not interested in.

 

[Graphics Horse]

The 3DS was their chance to turn back their position on online and we've seen what they did, no online store, friend codes, no messaging, no cross game party chat, cross game invites etc. There is no way Nintendo turn it all around in one year after the 3DS and deliver a competent online service and that is why they'll struggle just as much if not more next gen.

Their launch of the online side to 3DS isn't encouraging, but I'd give them the chance to show the philosophy of their new home system. I think they're aware of how important that is, although it doesn't necessarily have to mimic anyone else.

 

[phisheep]

But if Sony and Microsoft do go the high power route Nintendo's next system better have the specs needed to run perfect ports of multi plat games.

If Nintendo goes first and builds the momentum with third parties, it might well go the other way - that the multiplat games are built for the Nintendo machine and ported up. Especially if that means the dev costs come out cheaper overall. Be kind of a shame to waste all that excess graphical power on the other consoles, but hey, that's life.

Totally agree and that is why I think Nintendo have a very tough battle ahead as they've proven that they're unwilling/can't support a modern online infrastructure and this will turn off third parties and hardcore gamers who see a modern online infrastucture as essential in the future. The 3DS was their chance to turn back their position on online and we've seen what they did, no online store, friend codes, no messaging, no cross game party chat, cross game invites etc. There is no way Nintendo turn it all around in one year after the 3DS and deliver a competent online service and that is why they'll struggle just as much if not more next gen.

I'm not sure that 'struggle' is a fair description of where the Wii has been at over its lifetime.

But the online side sure will be interesting. By the sounds of it, Ninendo are tooling up for some good local multiplayer again - if they can pull that together with a good network so you can do local multiplayer online they might have a winner - there's nothing more tedious than going to a friend's house to watch them play.

Not saying they will, but maybe they'll try.

 

[Bizzyb]

Yeah you can look that up in Nintendo's reports, $596 million was projected for 2011, $400+ for 2010 and 2009 as well so over the last 3 years they spend about $1.5 billion in R&D.

http://www.whattheyplay.com/blog/2008/09/30/new-wii-due-by-2011/

May be due to projected advertising costs as well....

While our sources are reluctant to be too specific about “Wii HD,” they have been able to divulge some (albeit predictable) generalizations. High definition visuals are assured, as is a greater emphasis on digitally distributed and backwardly compatible content, indicating that the new system will feature some form of local storage medium such as a hard drive or large flash memory solution. It has also been indicated that Nintendo’s emphasis is again on what the consumer will hold in their hands and interact with, rather than the “console” itself.

I thought with friends code both users have to add each other, where as with Gamertags, someone simply sends a request and the other person either accepts of declines. Nintendo's way is still lacking.

The problem with them though is that you can't add people you randomly met or send messages. At least that's what I heard(don't have an online game yet).

Consider this, Mario Kart Wii had a feature where you could simply add someone to your friends list if they were on your wii console list.

I'm sure these features will be added in future updates

 

[ThatObviousUser]

Holographic discs haven't even been released, so its a fallacy to say Blu-ray has won over holographic discs as a format. Holographic discs wont be in the N6 because its still to expensive and nobody needs 1TB of space for video games yet. Holographic discs are a future format. It's what is likely to come after Blu-ray.

I mean Blu-ray won the war with HD-DVD. As far as winning against HVD, I have serious, serious doubts the technology will even get off the ground when it comes to consumer electronics. Blu-ray is already facing an uphill battle that only now is starting to turn highly positive. I believe network-based access will usurp any possible future formats, as well as keep Blu-ray going as the de-facto physical medium, similar to CDs and MP3s.

 

[SS4Gogita]

Lol people still believe they're going to use holographic discs?

Blu-ray won. There's no shame in choosing the winning format.

Just like they did when they used used carts for the N64 instead of CDs, or when they used their own proprietary mini-DVD format for the Gamecube, or when they used their own proprietary DVD format for the Wii?

It might be similar in looks and specs to Blu-ray, but I would not be surprised at all if Nintendo didn't go with the "winning format".