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Sakurai on why Ridley isn't playable in Smash Bros.

Wow, too big was the reason after all. :lol

^Metroid really doesn't have any memorable faces besides Samus/Dark Samus that'd work given Sakurai's statements here, but I would be BEYOND down for a Chozo or one of the other alien types (Put_U-Mos_In_Smash_5) from the series if they went that route. Alas, Metroid's entire game design and concept being entirely about isolation and the sole heroine most times so I don't see any other characters rising to the level of prominence Samus has.
 
xaszatm said:
Plus, Little Mac a god on the ground? Sure, if you don't know how to handle him. He's pathetically easy to deal with once you know him.
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Lemme guess. Throw him into the air? Preferably off the stage? I wonder why that is?

And Meta Knight was good everywhere in Brawl, now he has been super gimped and basically lives to punish players for mistakes with the hitboxes of Bowser's Flying Slam. Hooray.
 
xaszatm said:
Except that probably IS his reasoning. Doesn't matter if you think it's poor, it's still probably true. I just don't get why you think he's lying. He probably did think about making him a playable character since he DOES have a stock if you beat him in the Pyrosphere. Plus he's given reasoning on the Ice Climbers as well as reasoning behind the clones. Why is THIS suddenly a lie?
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I don't think he's lying. I just think it's dumb and inconsistent with much of the roster.
 
Sakurai droppin them Ridley tethers.

i4w7LI7ba0OHC.gif
 
So basically every point Sakurai made could be countered by pointing to another character that is already playable. But whatever, Sakurai has his vision for what Smash is and Ridley just isn't part of it, saying that is better than making some bullshit excuses.
 
MagiusNecros said:
Lemme guess. Throw him into the air? Preferably off the stage? I wonder why that is?
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No, use his own strategy against him. Dodge and Counter. I can win with Link easily against Little Mac and a good chunk of that fight is him on the ground. It's all about controlling where he is in relation to you. Plus, with the amounts of bombs, boomerangs, and bow attacks I have at my disposal, he's pathetically easy to keep at a distance, even with his knockback armour.
 
Echoenigma said:
I'm sorry to break this to you, but ridley looks weird as fuck when he's the size of a person. His proportions don't work right. That's why charizard and bowser look ok and he doesnt; they're proportions are not nearly as exaggeratedly inhuman.
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I completely disagree with this. Mario looks weird when next to other more "normally" proportioned characters given his gigantic head and exaggerated limbs. Ridley might look odd but I'd still rather have an odd looking Ridley than have this excuse of he's too big. Also, as was already posted characters aren't true to their sizes anyway so it's not like making Ridley smaller for this would be a problem. His Final Smash could just be him bigger again or whatever.
 
jaxapollo said:
Who honestly cares if a villain from a dead franchise is in smash or not?
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Villain characters are pretty lacking when I look at the roster.

xaszatm said:
No, use his own strategy against him. Dodge and Counter. I can win with Link easily against Little Mac and a good chunk of that fight is him on the ground. It's all about controlling where he is in relation to you. Plus, with the amounts of bombs, boomerangs, and bow attacks I have at my disposal, he's pathetically easy to keep at a distance, even with his knockback armour.
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Projectile spam and spacing. What fun.
 
So, it boils down to "Sakurai doesn't like the idea?" I mean, he doesn't mention trying to make Ridley, so for all we know, Sakurai might've been against the notion of adding him since Melee and only put effort into placing him outside of the playable roster. I respect the idea of wanting to be true to the character, but there's a few problems in the execution. I mean, I know people are contesting the "literally everyone is scaled," argument, but it is kinda true. It may be justified with Olimar and Kirby, but being large & imposing's a trait of Ganondorf, too, as is being small and balloon-sized for Jigglypuff.

Going back to the Dorf, that's another reason I think Ridley'd fit: He'd just sacrifice size, whereas other characters sacrifice more important traits. I mean, ignoring weirdness like the Green Missile and, more importantly, giving Samus rocket heels, Ganondorf's a brawler rather than the evil wizard swordsman he actually is. Even with the "People like his playstyle" argument, there's alternatives, like my favorite "Give the moveset to Black Shadow/Blood Falcon because being Not-Captain Falcon suits them perfectly, add Re-Invisioned Dorf" plan. And despite people liking the playstyle, it doesn't make him feel any more like Ganondorf.

He's not even the worst example; Wario's just a gross guy that farts in Smash. WarioWare may have a lot of toilet humor, but Wario doesn't fight there. He does fight in the Wario Land games, however, despite the one reference to it getting cut. He's nigh-immortal, with transformations, superhuman strength, and over-the-top wrestling moves. But here he's just weird, and Sakurai's going to defend the "Being gross is more integral to Wario's character than having him act like he does in his own series" until his dying days. As for the flying thing? Just don't let him fly all the time, then. If he's so big, he'd have to land sometime, right? They could make him the anti-Little Mac; make his aerials top-notch, but have him struggle on land.

Most importantly, however... Will anyone care? I can see Ridley working well as an aerial fighter with his Other M portions/Super Metroid looks. Just make him Bowser-sized/hunched over, and we'd be golden; it worked for him in Melee's intro! All the mods posted just shrank a model without editing it, so of course they'd look off. Ridley's the most requested character for Smash now. He's been in the Top 5-10 since Melee. With Mewtwo back, I can't think of anyone people'd want more. I agree that if they make a Sakurai-less Smash, Ridley's the first thing the team'll do after moving into the office, but honestly, I'm surprised Sakurai hasn't even tried to make Ridley work yet. He's still my favorite dev out there right now, but his "vision" is literally the only thing stopping Ridley, according to this interview. Even then, wasn't this vision the reason Sakurai didn't even consider the Villager for Brawl? He went back on that one, at least.
 
RagnarokX said:
But he's a flying type.
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Charizard can learn 5 moves that have the flying type. Of those, only two (Fly and Sky Drop) actually involve flying. Plus, in Pokemon, just because it's a flying type doesn't mean it is in the air the entire battle. In fact, at best, they are in the air for a single turn. Physical attackers that clearly can't fly can hit flying characters with no problem as long as the Fly move isn't being used. People exaggerate the importance of flying for any flying type Pokemon, let alone Charizard. Him not being in the air 24/7 matches how he is portrayed in Smash.
 
Azure Dream said:
]I'm not your strawman.[/B]

Maybe Sakurai, as awesome as he is, isn't the Alpha and Omega of game design? Smash 4 is great, but it's also very derivative of prior titles in the series. He's the type of person that decides on the best way to do something, and from there, barring a few tweaks, they usually stick close to that design. Look at Mario, for example. Mr. Nintendo. In Brawl he was given the FLUDD move, and most aren't a fan of it. In Smash 4, he's still sporting it, and mostly unchanged, despite half a dozen new Mario platformers they could be drawing inspiration from. Link always plays like Melee Link, with very little influence from the games they're actually supposed to be from. And that's not even touching on bigger design issues. Even the menus (designed by his wife, IIRC?), since Meteos they've been similar in style. I'm sure he thinks that's what works best.

How Sakurai designs a Smash game should be a known quantity at Nintendo at this point. It really is time to see how someone else would approach it, someone more interested in redefining the basics, someone more interested in revising old plans, and approaching things from a new angle. Maybe there won't be as many characters. Maybe it won't work out. But we've had four generations of Sakurai giving us what he thinks would make the best Smash game. That's enough for now. It's time to see what someone else can do with it, regardless of how good Smash 4 is.


The series can live on without him; hell, he shouldn't be in charge of the next one for his own sake. He's an obsessive workaholic, and he's killing himself. Nintendo can't crutch on him for Smash anymore.
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Never said you were. And we don't have to go around in circles about this. Your comment was one of many that seemed to imply what I stated in my reply to your post. If that wasn't your intent, that's fine, but I'm calling it how I see it.

As to the rest of your post, I see this as a bunch of nitpicky stuff for enthusiasts, to which Smash is not the target audience. Despite this, they even gave custom movesets for people who were complaining about Fludd and other things. There's no reason not to think that Sakurai isn't the best person for the job outside of "Sakurai is doing things that I don't want him to do, and the fact that he's in charge of a critically and comercially successful franchise isn't relevant to me."

We don't have to agree on this, and it's clear that we won't. I'm just posting my observation on this mindset and I think it's silly. Nintendo does too, considering they didn't want anyone else working on Smash, despite the amazing talent they have there. They wanted Sakurai.

If he retires from the franchise after Smash 4, I'll be more concerned that Smash 5 will be a lesser game for it. Nobody said he was perfect, but he's doing well above a "good" job.
 
Ezalc said:
I completely disagree with this. Mario looks weird when next to other more "normally" proportioned characters given his gigantic head and exaggerated limbs. Ridley might look odd but I'd still rather have an odd looking Ridley than have this excuse of he's too big. Also, as was already posted characters aren't true to their sizes anyway so it's not like making Ridley smaller for this would be a problem. His Final Smash could just be him bigger again or whatever.
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Uh

No

He looks like mario, with typical mario proportions

Ridley would look like a compressed disaster
 
Chie Satonaka said:
Lol.

"Never mind the fact that Sakurai is one of the best game designers in the industry, and that Smash is one of the best game franchises out there, has both hardcore and mainsteeam appeal, is the perfect love song to Nintendo's history, has amazing music, and plays great... I want someone else on it because maybe then Ridley will be playable."

Some of you guys will never let it go.
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You'd have an argument if all of those things were actually true. I'll give you tribute to Nintendo's history and has amazing music, but the rest... not since 2001.
 
C.Olimar788 said:
Man is it so important that characters are completely 100% true to their source material! That's why Zero Suit Samus is in, a character who is Samus without her suit. Because Samus would definitely willingly fight without her suit in the Metroid games! Oh yeah, and I made up a whip and jet boots for her. Source material accuracy!

It's all right, Sakurai, you can admit that you don't have any interest in the Metroid series. We get it, you don't want to put effort into repping the series. That's fine. But don't make up halfassed excuses like this.

Also, refrain from spending the better part of the next game's production time teasing a character who apparently would never have been reasonable to add as playable in the first place. I wouldn't even be bothered by this if it weren't for the goddamned Direct tease that was never clarified on until the game's release. I've never been one to assume that Sakurai is deliberately being an ass, but that was a lot of extremely poorly-planned advertisement.
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How can you say that when we got The Burning Lava Fish, the most beloved Metroid music of all time?
xaszatm said:
Charizard can learn 5 moves that have the flying type. Of those, only two (Fly and Sky Drop) actually involve flying. Plus, in Pokemon, just because it's a flying type doesn't mean it is in the air the entire battle. In fact, at best, they are in the air for a single turn. Physical attackers that clearly can't fly can hit flying characters with no problem as long as the Fly move isn't being used. People exaggerate the importance of flying for any flying type Pokemon, let alone Charizard. Him not being in the air 24/7 matches how he is portrayed in Smash.
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Have you played X and Y? Because Charizard is in the air all the time during battles. There's even an entire battle type (Sky battles) designed around Pokemon constantly flying high in the air, and Charizard can participate in those.

Fly is supposed to be a Pokemon flying high in the sky, not just flying in general.
 
Reading through some stuff and it seems Little Mac has grown. The original Punch Out, he's 4'8" but Punch Out Wii he's 5'7".

I think Mac is wearing some platform boots!
 
MagiusNecros said:
Didn't Sakurai say at one point Animal Crossing's Villager would never work as a playable fighter?
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Sakurai thought Animal Crossing was too peaceful for Smash Bros., but he jokingly suggested that the Villager could fight with a shovel and net. There was never an issue from a technical perspective.
 
This wouldn't satisfy everyone but maybe Smash needs a mode where you can play as bosses. Make them limited to stages that are specifically designed for them and maybe bar them from using items. If necessary, don't tether it to rankings or a W/L ratio.

That would open up a lot of possibilities for Ridley, Pig Ganon, and other classic characters.
 
Toxi said:
How can you say that when we got The Burning Lava Fish, the most beloved Metroid music of all time?

Have you played X and Y? Because Charizard is in the air all the time during battles. There's even an entire battle type (Sky battles) designed around Pokemon constantly flying high in the air, and Charizard can participate in those.
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Yes I have played X and Y. Barring Air battles, in which both players use Pokemon that fly, Charizard's "flying" doesn't effect other Pokemon hitting him, barring ground-type moves. If I can smack Charizard around with an Ice Punch as Hitmonchan, it clearly shows that Charizard isn't flying high in the sky. Accuracy isn't affect by flying in Pokemon. So unless all pokemon can teleport now, your response doesn't change anything.
 
Chie Satonaka said:
Lol.

"Never mind the fact that Sakurai is one of the best game designers in the industry, and that Smash is one of the best game franchises out there, has both hardcore and mainsteeam appeal, is the perfect love song to Nintendo's history, has amazing music, and plays great... I want someone else on it because maybe then Ridley will be playable."

Some of you guys will never let it go.
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This is the guy who made brawl, you know
 
curlyfriski said:
This is the guy who made brawl, you know
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Which is still a great game, by the way. Just because it isn't your precious Melee doesn't mean it's a poor game. If Brawl truly represents the worst game you have ever played, than I congratulate you for avoiding all the crap that comes out of the gaming world.
 
Tookay said:
This wouldn't satisfy everyone but maybe Smash needs a mode where you can play as bosses. Make them limited to stages that are specifically designed for them and maybe bar them from using items. If necessary, don't tether it to rankings or a W/L ratio.

That would open up a lot of possibilities for Ridley, Pig Ganon, and other classic characters.
Click to expand...
Ganon needs to be a Giga Bowser-style transformation for Ganondorf
if he ever gets a proper fucking moveset
IMO.
 
Tookay said:
This wouldn't satisfy everyone but maybe Smash needs a mode where you can play as bosses. Make them limited to stages that are specifically designed for them and maybe bar them from using items. If necessary, don't tether it to rankings or a W/L ratio.

That would open up a lot of possibilities for Ridley, Pig Ganon, and other classic characters.
Click to expand...

Would love to play as Giga Bowser for more then 10 seconds.
 
xaszatm said:
Yes I have played X and Y. Barring Air battles, in which both players use Pokemon that fly, Charizard's "flying" doesn't effect other Pokemon hitting him, barring ground-type moves. If I can smack Charizard around with an Ice Punch as Hitmonchan, it clearly shows that Charizard isn't flying high in the sky.
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Why do you have quotation marks around "flying"? Does this look like walking to you?
charizard.gif


And yes, Charizard and other Flying types generally aren't flying high in the sky during battle; they're still flying. Your Hitmonchan can hit Charizard because it can reach up or jump. It will generally have a disadvantage with Fighting type moves (AKA punches or kicks) because it's hard to punch something flying. The one Fighting type move that's not weak against Flying types is Sky Uppercut, a move flavored as the user jumping high in the air.
 
xaszatm said:
Charizard can learn 5 moves that have the flying type. Of those, only two (Fly and Sky Drop) actually involve flying. Plus, in Pokemon, just because it's a flying type doesn't mean it is in the air the entire battle. In fact, at best, they are in the air for a single turn. Physical attackers that clearly can't fly can hit flying characters with no problem as long as the Fly move isn't being used. People exaggerate the importance of flying for any flying type Pokemon, let alone Charizard. Him not being in the air 24/7 matches how he is portrayed in Smash.
Click to expand...

Being a flying type defines what Charizard's strengths and weaknesses are. Flying pokemon are immune to ground attacks, meaning they must be in the air. The move roost heals a pokemon and removes the flying type for 1 turn, making that pokemon susceptible to ground attacks. A lot of flying pokemon were depicted as flying the entire battle in Gen VI, charizard among them.
 
Jedi Link said:
You'd have an argument if all of those things were actually true. I'll give you tribute to Nintendo's history and has amazing music, but the rest... not since 2001.
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I''m... trying to figure out what I said was false.

The enthusiast community might not have been on top of Brawl the same way the were on Melee, but people who aren't playing the game competitively and would consider themselves quite a few leagues above "casual" (such as myself) seemed to enjoy the game just fine, despite it's flaws. And yes, I'm not saying that it was pefect. I think that the sum of Melee was probably a better game, but Brawl had more elements in it I personally enjoyed. It's anecdotal, but the game was reviewed well, scored well, and sold well, so I guess I feel like my point is backed up pretty well...

Are you saying Sakurai isn't a top notch game designer or developer?

Are you saying Brawl was broken to the point of being unplayable?

curlyfriski said:
This is the guy who made brawl, you know
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I know a lot of enthusiasts have a lot of issues with Brawl, (and yes, the tripping sucked) but Brawl wasn't a bad game, right? Maybe I'm overestimating it's response, but outside of a few things, I don't seem to recall Brawl being broken like some people are making it out to be.

Maybe I'm wrong. It's been like six years.

With that said, this response seems to be less about Brawl being "bad" and more about people being mad about lack of Ridley. Even if we say Brawl wasn't good, Smash 4 is top notch.

And with that, I'm bowing out. I've spent waaaaaaaaaay more time on this than I expected to.

EDIT because I can't help myself:

Gaiaknight said:
point brawl was still critically acclaimed and has a higher metacritic that melee so sakurai did something right.
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I knew I hadn't lost my mind. Who are these massive Brawl haters that are not Smash Enthusiasts?
 
Tookay said:
Ideally, that would be best.

Especially if he ever got a proper moveset. ;_;
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Honestly I think you could keep a lot of his normals the same, only re-animate them so he's using a sword in place of them. Choke hold is perfectly in character and even his up and down B's could work as is with some slight adjustments, but the lack of dead man's volley is still a huge sore point for me.

Especially in 8-player smash that'd be hilarious to see an enormous game of energy ball tennis playing out.
 
Toxi said:
Why do you have quotation marks around "flying"? Does this look like walking to you?
charizard.gif


And yes, Charizard and other Flying types generally aren't flying high in the sky during battle; they're still flying. Your Hitmonchan can hit Charizard because it can reach up or jump. It will generally have a disadvantage with Fighting type moves because, well, it's hard to punch a bird.
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I can hit a Swallow with Dugtrio as long as I'm not using a ground type move. Also, Ice Punch is an Ice type move, not a fighting move, meaning it's super effective against flying opponents. Also, it's accuracy still isn't effective by the opponent having the flying type.

RagnarokX said:
Being a flying type defines what Charizard's strengths and weaknesses are. Flying pokemon are immune to ground attacks, meaning they must be in the air. The move roost heals a pokemon and removes the flying type for 1 turn, making that pokemon susceptible to ground attacks. A lot of flying pokemon were depicted as flying the entire battle in Gen VI, charizard among them.
Click to expand...

Look, the point I'm making with this is that Charizard not being in the air 24/7 is not a betrayal of what Charizard is. Charizard still has good air time, but his moves and playstyle do accurately (within reason, of course) reflect how he plays in Pokemon.

Ridley, on the other hand? Ridley is defined by his sweeping attacks, his tail attacks, his long range both with his arms and fireballs. HIs portrayal in the Pyrosphere as well as his potrayal in Brawl are accurate to how he acts in the games. Making him a Smash fighter would involve making him not Ridley to fit the confines of its own game. Just because something sounds like a great idea, doesn't mean it automatically is.
 
xaszatm said:
Ridley, on the other hand? Ridley is defined by his sweeping attacks, his tail attacks, his long range both with his arms and fireballs. HIs portrayal in the Pyrosphere as well as his potrayal in Brawl are accurate to how he acts in the games. Making him a Smash fighter would involve making him not Ridley to fit the confines of its own game. Just because something sounds like a great idea, doesn't mean it automatically is.
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Yeah, none of those types of attacks would be feasible with a playable Ridley. Ganondorf is a different case though. Having similar proportions to Captain Falcon makes all his moves make sense.
 
IAmtheFMan said:
Maybe if the next Metroid game comes up with a kick-ass antagonist that can give Samus a run for her money, we'll finally get a rep.
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They really dropped the ball by not having Dark Samus as a playable character, though. Her inclusion as an Assist Trophy shows she can be her own unique thing.
 
Spring-Loaded said:
Yeah, none of those types of attacks would be feasible with a playable Ridley. Ganondorf is a different case though. Having similar proportions to Captain Falcon makes all his moves make sense.
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Gannondorf is a special case. It was made in Melee and clearly added in as fanservice first. Sakurai has since erred on consistency with Gannondorf rather than make a new moveset for him. Does it suck? Yes. Is it enraging? Not really.
 
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