Azure Dream
Member
Good job quoting me from pages ago, yet ignoring my clarification.
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Sakurai on why Ridley isn't playable in Smash Bros.
- Thread starter Ryce
- Start date
Good job quoting me from pages ago, yet ignoring my clarification.
Chopper Dave
Member
There are a lot of popular requests. Fans of smash consist of fans of Mario, Zelda, Mother, Xenoblade, Metroid, etcetera. Being a popular request doesn't mean his thoughts need disregarded and final say virtually taken off his hands. I don't see why his addition would be so bad either. Though I guess I don't see why his exclusion is so bad. Just how many Nintendo characters I adore are being left out I wonder. I don't have the patience to count. Not everything goes my way. I hope Sakurai does his best to make fans happy and as a fan myself I want him to listen to us. He doesn't need to obey our every whim even if they are popular.
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thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
For me, at least, my expectation is for someone fixing some old mistakes while making new ones.
After 20 years of playing the franchise, its about time for some of these things to be looked at by someone else. I know there's only been 4 games, but when you play each one of them 1000 hours over the course of 5 years each, the mistakes kind of drag on you.
"We decided to focus on other characters" would be more tactful, but yes, that would be a lot better to me.
Choppasmith
Member
ViciousAnchovy
Member
My initial reasoning for thinking Ridley wouldn't work in Smash Bros. was the size argument as well, although plenty of people have shown why that isn't the strongest argument. Still, I'm in the camp of people who have been saying that they see Ridley's size as an integral part of his character design.
In the case of Olimar, while it's clear that he's supposed to be be really small, I still for some reason feel as if he's of normal size in the Pikmin games. Sure, everyday objects like paper bags and bottle caps completely dwarf him and his pikmin, but despite being small objects in our world, the fact that you interact with them on a regular basis makes them feel less imposing than what their actual size might suggest. Ridley, on the other hand, is a boss you encounter on a couple times at most in the Metroid games.
I don't expect that this point of view will seem particularly grounded to everyone, nor do I even necessarily think it's the best view, but it's the best explanation I have for understanding why I don't feel the need to see Ridley in Smash Bros.
As for the people who say that Ridley's size hasn't been consistent, I would point at that, while he may have been small for the original Metroid, he's been large in every one since (except for maybe Meroid 2? I can't find images of him for that.)
In the case of Olimar, while it's clear that he's supposed to be be really small, I still for some reason feel as if he's of normal size in the Pikmin games. Sure, everyday objects like paper bags and bottle caps completely dwarf him and his pikmin, but despite being small objects in our world, the fact that you interact with them on a regular basis makes them feel less imposing than what their actual size might suggest. Ridley, on the other hand, is a boss you encounter on a couple times at most in the Metroid games.
I don't expect that this point of view will seem particularly grounded to everyone, nor do I even necessarily think it's the best view, but it's the best explanation I have for understanding why I don't feel the need to see Ridley in Smash Bros.
As for the people who say that Ridley's size hasn't been consistent, I would point at that, while he may have been small for the original Metroid, he's been large in every one since (except for maybe Meroid 2? I can't find images of him for that.)
I'M FINISHED!
Um exCUSE me Sakurai but CLEARLY the best choice for Smash Bros would be my fav niche character HOWEVER you are clearly INCOMPETENT and
This is just a bologna answer that isn't consistent with other decisions he has made for other characters. He would have been better off saying that he just didn't want to. I still love yea though Sakurai.
Aurean_Mentat
Member
Some of the responses in this thread remind me of the debates on smashboards about this kind of stuff. Some people are downright rabid there, and reading their posts here, they seem like the kind of people who are mad because Ridley isn't in the game now, but would whine about the portrayal of Ridley in Smash then as much as people do about the portrayal of Ganondorf right now (some of it in this very thread).
And its not as if I completely disagree with the pro-Ridley, anti-Ganondorf crowd. I can totally understand why people might disagree regarding Ridley, but I can totally see where Sakurai is coming from. I think the portrayal of Ganon/Ganondorf in general in the Zelda series has been kind of weird in general.
But a lot of the pro-Ridley crowd come off to me as people who would never be happy about anything. I think it's amazing that we got Smash 4 as we did and that Nintendo is doing balance patches for it.
Chie Satonaka
Member
The original post and the clarification was made in a thread where people are mad because Ridley isn't included in the roster, and Sakurai's reasoning isn't good enough.
Even when you clarified, in this instance a "new persepective" gives hope to the idea that "maybe if it's not Sakurai he has a chance of getting in!" I still think it's just as ridiculous, especially considering that Smash4 is a fantastic game. It's kinda strange to hear people clamoring for new blood on a franchise that's consistently better with each iteration, but I guess Ridley just brings that out in people.
Ambience7817x
Member
His size is definitely a factor in his design. He can still be shrink down to smash sizes. make him the biggest character on the roster, or as big as bowser. No one said he would have to be Charizard sized, just slightly scaled up.
EDIT: also, Ridley didn't appear in M2
Professor Renegade
Banned
Hahahaha, Ridley is actually too big.
Conrad Link
Member
This never would have happened if Gunpei was still with us. 
He obviously loved Metroid more than Kid Icarus, why don't you Sakurai!
He obviously loved Metroid more than Kid Icarus, why don't you Sakurai!
Ridley doesn't appear at all in Metroid 2, Metroid Prime 2, and Metroid Hunters.
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thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Uh, you seemed to miss the whole point of my post. You can listen to the most popular opinions that don't really effect the overall design without sliding into listening to every single opinion out there. Not really a hard concept to get.
Do you not agree that Ridley is by far the most commonly requested character at this point?
The whole thing about Ridley has been his size, I completely understand Sakurai.
The real answer though is that Metroid is not popular enough compared to the other franchises and the pull they have. The next logical character would have to be a metroid itself, or a space pirate anyway. Ridley isn't even the final boss.
I'm glad either way. Ridley seems such a dumb character to add as a fighter.
The real answer though is that Metroid is not popular enough compared to the other franchises and the pull they have. The next logical character would have to be a metroid itself, or a space pirate anyway. Ridley isn't even the final boss.
I'm glad either way. Ridley seems such a dumb character to add as a fighter.
Mineshaft_Gap
4077th
Nintendo just shot themselves in the foot.
I don't know how much the rest of you know about Japanese culture (I'm an expert), but honor and shame are huge parts of it. It's not like it is in America where you can become successful by being an asshole. If you screw someone over in Japan, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is repentance.
What this means is the japanese public, after hearing about this, is not going to want to purchase Super Smash Brothers for either system, nor will they purchase any of Nintendo's games. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but Nintendo has alienated an entire market with this move.
Nintendo, publicly apologize and add Ridley as a playable character in the new SSB or you can kiss your business goodbye.
I don't know how much the rest of you know about Japanese culture (I'm an expert), but honor and shame are huge parts of it. It's not like it is in America where you can become successful by being an asshole. If you screw someone over in Japan, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is repentance.
What this means is the japanese public, after hearing about this, is not going to want to purchase Super Smash Brothers for either system, nor will they purchase any of Nintendo's games. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but Nintendo has alienated an entire market with this move.
Nintendo, publicly apologize and add Ridley as a playable character in the new SSB or you can kiss your business goodbye.
It's not even about Metroid itself, it's about Sakurai's bullheadedness and continuous design choices that seem to be made only to spite some people. He only considers Smash a party game, so it seems like everybody else HAS to consider it like that too and damn them if they don't. Sakurai to me just seems incredibly arrogant about how he views the series since he created it, so bringing in somebody new to direct could be a good way to change things up and freshen things up a little. Somebody who will never think that something like tripping is a good idea to implement in a game.
PadWarrior
Member
I understand this lol.
Azure Dream
Member
I'm not your strawman.
Maybe Sakurai, as awesome as he is, isn't the Alpha and Omega of game design? Smash 4 is great, but it's also very derivative of prior titles in the series. He's the type of person that decides on the best way to do something, and from there, barring a few tweaks, they usually stick close to that design. Look at Mario, for example. Mr. Nintendo. In Brawl he was given the FLUDD move, and most aren't a fan of it. In Smash 4, he's still sporting it, and mostly unchanged, despite half a dozen new Mario platformers they could be drawing inspiration from. Link always plays like Melee Link, with very little influence from the games they're actually supposed to be from. And that's not even touching on bigger design issues. Even the menus (designed by his wife, IIRC?), since Meteos they've been similar in style. I'm sure he thinks that's what works best.
How Sakurai designs a Smash game should be a known quantity at Nintendo at this point. It really is time to see how someone else would approach it, someone more interested in redefining the basics, someone more interested in revising old plans, and approaching things from a new angle. Maybe there won't be as many characters. Maybe it won't work out. But we've had four generations of Sakurai giving us what he thinks would make the best Smash game. That's enough for now. It's time to see what someone else can do with it, regardless of how good Smash 4 is.
The series can live on without him; hell, he shouldn't be in charge of the next one for his own sake. He's an obsessive workaholic, and he's killing himself. Nintendo can't crutch on him for Smash anymore.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
His reasoning for Ridley is rather poor. Especially since he gave everything most playable characters have in gameplay when he is fought as a boss which honestly is insulting. Basically made him into a CPU controlled playable character that appears on a single stage. Even having his own stock icon. Unless he means "that specific Ridley" isn't playable.
Also
Providing accurate portrayals of characters is something I want to pay ample attention to,
Tell that to Ganondorf.
Also
Providing accurate portrayals of characters is something I want to pay ample attention to,
Tell that to Ganondorf.
My god, there are plenty of whiners here. Let me put it this way. Remember how broken MetaKnight was in Brawl? Ridley would be even worse than that. A heavyweight character with better flying capabilities than MetaKnight? Are you trying to break the game? There is a reason why he is a boss character in Smash 4 and why in Brawl he had a health bar. The guy would be impossible to KO.
He's not getting in. Anyone who will think for a few seconds can see that.
He's not getting in. Anyone who will think for a few seconds can see that.
Didn't stop him from doing it for other characters.
wtf is wrong with DeDeDe...
PensivePen
Member
He would only be that way if they designed him as such. I don't care about Ridley that much, but Sakurai's reasoning is poor (as is yours). He should have just said "we chose to focus on other characters" and been done with it.
Chopper Dave
Member
Do you really think I'm disputing this? Yes you can listen to these opinions. You can even despite consideration decide not to abide by fan request because you feel a character's size/proportions make it difficult to include in the roster. Fan excitement even as great as Ridley wasn't enough to strong arm the character into a playable role despite the creator feeling he was a poor fit. I feel for Ridley fans but I respect Sakurai's position too. I see no great injustice in how things worked out.
mgs2master2
Banned
Haha this
Ambience7817x
Member
You can easily make it a Bowser/wario like grab, grab-n-slide across the ground with a range like those 2
friskykillface
Banned
then why no king k rool ? hes about the same size as bowser and slightly bigger then donkey kong
sakurai why
its always been ridleys skinny body x wings thats held him back
sakurai why
its always been ridleys skinny body x wings thats held him back
C.Olimar788
Member
Man is it so important that characters are completely 100% true to their source material! That's why Zero Suit Samus is in, a character who is Samus without her suit. Because Samus would definitely willingly fight without her suit in the Metroid games! Oh yeah, and I made up a whip and jet boots for her. Source material accuracy!
It's all right, Sakurai, you can admit that you don't have any interest in the Metroid series. We get it, you don't want to put effort into repping the series. That's fine. But don't make up halfassed excuses like this.
Also, refrain from spending the better part of the next game's production time teasing a character who apparently would never have been reasonable to add as playable in the first place. I wouldn't even be bothered by this if it weren't for the goddamned Direct tease that was never clarified on until the game's release. I've never been one to assume that Sakurai is deliberately being an ass, but that was a lot of extremely poorly-planned advertisement.
It's all right, Sakurai, you can admit that you don't have any interest in the Metroid series. We get it, you don't want to put effort into repping the series. That's fine. But don't make up halfassed excuses like this.
Also, refrain from spending the better part of the next game's production time teasing a character who apparently would never have been reasonable to add as playable in the first place. I wouldn't even be bothered by this if it weren't for the goddamned Direct tease that was never clarified on until the game's release. I've never been one to assume that Sakurai is deliberately being an ass, but that was a lot of extremely poorly-planned advertisement.
MetalGuardian
Banned
Looks like this officially ends hope from the SpainKiller leak
#TheDreamIsDeadAndAllIGotWasThisAmazingGame
#TheDreamIsDeadAndAllIGotWasThisAmazingGame
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Nonsense. Since Little Mac is Godly on the ground why not do the inverse with Ridley and make him a total boss in the air.
Then again they probably already decided to just make him a boss in the air.
He said moving models. Ridley has a model and it also moves.
Coffee Dog
Banned
Asking for ridley is like asking for rayquaza.
Why is Charizard in the game if he can fly? Pretty sure they just designed it so he can't do that in the game. Like how they could with Ridley.
The thing with Ridley is that he's supposed to be an intimidating space dragon. Ok, that doesn't mean he can't be intimidating if he was a bit smaller to fit as a playable character in the game. Just make him as big as possible that he can still be considered a playable character. Nobody is trying to make a case for Metalface nor the Yellow Giant because they aren't the main antagonist for the entire 20+ year old series nor one of the most requested playable characters for the past three entries of the franchise. It's an awful comparison and the he's too big argument just comes across as a bad excuse to justify him being lazy or too stubborn about it.
Spainkiller said later that his source saw the Ridley stage boss model and thought it was playable.
Oh yeah, Whispy Woods is only around 7'9". He's not a very tall tree.
Welcome to the world of Kirby!
Ambience7817x
Member
A character who is almost worthless on the ground seems really interesting. good thing smash is really focused in air combat. That would be really cool.
IAmtheFMan
Member
Look, I'm a huge Metroid fan too, but the fact of the matter is, it's very easy to see Sakurai's point. In all but the first Metroid game, Ridley has been portrayed as an imposing, menacing character. It's been a consistent trait for him and the point is that as Samus, you have always felt tiny compared to this large, dragon like character. Taking this away from him would be taking a huge part of what makes the character unique. It's not simple enough to "do a Charizard but make him a lil' bigger," it'd be like making Gohma from Zelda a playable character, but making him Bowser's size. Yes, technically you could do it, but then it wouldn't feel the same.
And yes, I get the whole "scale is relative" argument, but let's be honest; Bowser's height and size vary wildly from game to game. Yes he's always bigger than Mario, and sometimes he's massive, but other times, he's simply scaled just a tad bigger than Mario himself. Likewise, yes Olimar is technically supposed to be tiny and miniscule, but again, from the framework of the Pikmin game the sense of scale comes only after you realize that you're tiny very intuitively by the things you start to collect and see in the game. In that sense, the game never makes you ever feel tiny or insignificant, but rather that everything ELSE in the world you're interacting with is massively oversized. By that same token and going back to my original point, wouldn't it feel strange if the Bulborbs in Smash Run were "scaled accurately" and made to be the same size or smaller than the playable characters?
As for Ganondorf... yes he's a modified clone at this point of Falcon. But should you really use this as precedent to put in a half-assed Charizard-Ridley character? Melee was a game that Nintendo wanted to get out quickly for the 2001 Holiday season, and there's no doubt in my mind that if Sakurai had more time for that game, Ganondorf probably would've ended up more unique. Unfortunately he's put in between a rock and a hard place in terms of revising or changing and it's pretty clear that he's erred on the side of consistency.
To me, it seems that a lot of the argument is for another Metroid rep which I can understand. It is one of Nintendo's premiere franchises, and it should have a good rep. Unfortunately, there really ISN'T a good rep outside of Samus for Smash. Most of the main boss characters (like Kraid, or Phantoon etc) really wouldn't work unless Sakurai wanted to use some completely forgettable bounty hunters from Hunters or Prime 3, or some generic space marine from Other M. Dark Samus probably would be the closest but she still remains in AT limbo for now. So yes, I understand where the enthusiasm is coming from as Ridley's probably the closest thing to fitting but even then, it really isn't a clean fit for the reasons I outlined above.
Just looking at this grass-roots campaign for Ridley that's seemed to come up more prominently for Smash 4, it's very strange to me. Even the whole revisionist theory of "oh they were cheering for Ridley not Samus" during the E3 2001 debut of the game is just very funny to me, considering I remember the build up to E3 2001 and the anticipation of ANYTHING Metroid... not Ridley.
Maybe if the next Metroid game comes up with a kick-ass antagonist that can give Samus a run for her money, we'll finally get a rep. But until then, I feel like trying to shoe-horn Ridley into Smash is fitting a round peg into a square hole.
And yes, I get the whole "scale is relative" argument, but let's be honest; Bowser's height and size vary wildly from game to game. Yes he's always bigger than Mario, and sometimes he's massive, but other times, he's simply scaled just a tad bigger than Mario himself. Likewise, yes Olimar is technically supposed to be tiny and miniscule, but again, from the framework of the Pikmin game the sense of scale comes only after you realize that you're tiny very intuitively by the things you start to collect and see in the game. In that sense, the game never makes you ever feel tiny or insignificant, but rather that everything ELSE in the world you're interacting with is massively oversized. By that same token and going back to my original point, wouldn't it feel strange if the Bulborbs in Smash Run were "scaled accurately" and made to be the same size or smaller than the playable characters?
As for Ganondorf... yes he's a modified clone at this point of Falcon. But should you really use this as precedent to put in a half-assed Charizard-Ridley character? Melee was a game that Nintendo wanted to get out quickly for the 2001 Holiday season, and there's no doubt in my mind that if Sakurai had more time for that game, Ganondorf probably would've ended up more unique. Unfortunately he's put in between a rock and a hard place in terms of revising or changing and it's pretty clear that he's erred on the side of consistency.
To me, it seems that a lot of the argument is for another Metroid rep which I can understand. It is one of Nintendo's premiere franchises, and it should have a good rep. Unfortunately, there really ISN'T a good rep outside of Samus for Smash. Most of the main boss characters (like Kraid, or Phantoon etc) really wouldn't work unless Sakurai wanted to use some completely forgettable bounty hunters from Hunters or Prime 3, or some generic space marine from Other M. Dark Samus probably would be the closest but she still remains in AT limbo for now. So yes, I understand where the enthusiasm is coming from as Ridley's probably the closest thing to fitting but even then, it really isn't a clean fit for the reasons I outlined above.
Just looking at this grass-roots campaign for Ridley that's seemed to come up more prominently for Smash 4, it's very strange to me. Even the whole revisionist theory of "oh they were cheering for Ridley not Samus" during the E3 2001 debut of the game is just very funny to me, considering I remember the build up to E3 2001 and the anticipation of ANYTHING Metroid... not Ridley.
Maybe if the next Metroid game comes up with a kick-ass antagonist that can give Samus a run for her money, we'll finally get a rep. But until then, I feel like trying to shoe-horn Ridley into Smash is fitting a round peg into a square hole.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Sakurai was just being polite and didn't want to admit you'd be stuck with that horrid Other M design if he was playable.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Coffee Dog
Banned
I'm sorry to break this to you, but ridley looks weird as fuck when he's the size of a person. His proportions don't work right. That's why charizard and bowser look ok and he doesnt; they're proportions are not nearly as exaggeratedly inhuman.
Conrad Link
Member
Much better than Dark Pit.
This is perhaps the best argument I have read in the whole thread.
And yes, they should make a new character, Mini-Ridley!
Except that probably IS his reasoning. Doesn't matter if you think it's poor, it's still probably true. I just don't get why you think he's lying. He probably did think about making him a playable character since he DOES have a stock if you beat him in the Pyrosphere. Plus he's given reasoning on the Ice Climbers as well as reasoning behind the clones. Why is THIS suddenly a lie?
Meta Knight was a boss in the air in Brawl. Want a repeat? Ridley is defined by a few things: his size, his flying abilities, his long rage beams/Fireballs, and his tail. Want to remove a good chunk of that just to make him playble? Because the Ridley fans would be even MORE pissed if that pathetic bare bones character got in than not at all.
Plus, Little Mac a god on the ground? Sure, if you don't know how to handle him. He's pathetically easy to deal with once you know him.
Charizard isn't defined by his ability to fly. Ridley is. As above, there are more reasons than just his flying ability. Let's get rid of his tail attacks, his beam attacks, his power, and all around make him NOT Ridley. Because THAT will make the fans happy...not.
I'm sorry, I just don't see why people think Ridley is the best canidate for a Smash character. It's RIDLEY, for goodness sakes. When I expect Ridley, I expect I gigantic Space Dragon that can toss Samus around like a tin can if he can catch her off guard. The boss character defined NOT because he is on the same level, but because he is superior to Samus in every way. That the only reason you are better than him is because of skill rather than raw power. That scene where Ridley drags Samus along the wall, scraping it, is perhaps one of the best cutscenes involving Ridley. THAT'S Ridley, not whatever bare bone chicken people seem to want in Smash...up until they include him anyways, then Sakurai will be cursed at for "ruining" a character.
Conrad Link
Member
What about a Chozo?
I guess that would have taken away development time from Dr. Mario.
I guess that would have taken away development time from Dr. Mario.