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Shipping Unfinished/Unpolished Games Now, Apologizing Later With Patch Roadmap
- Thread starter SOLDIER
- Start date
Is the Persona 5 translation broken at some point, or is this a case of some people not liking some of the localization choices and expecting companies to cave to social media pressure?
I just got my copy today.
EDIT: With regards to the others, I was a launch day (or close enough) buyer of ME1-3 and Dragon Age 1-3. I had so many issue with the PC version of Inquisition at launch that I didn't even bother with ME Andromeda. I will pick it up in a few months after a few rounds of patches. Bioware will probably lose $30 or so as a result.
I just got my copy today.
EDIT: With regards to the others, I was a launch day (or close enough) buyer of ME1-3 and Dragon Age 1-3. I had so many issue with the PC version of Inquisition at launch that I didn't even bother with ME Andromeda. I will pick it up in a few months after a few rounds of patches. Bioware will probably lose $30 or so as a result.
joecanada
Member
I think you have to use the power of your research or experience to use this to your advantage rather than crying foul as a victim (but I don't blame the victim either which is why I am in favor of refunds like steam has)....
for example I have made decisions which feel great after the fact such as :
skipped bf hardline after the bf4 poor launch. love bf but no that was not acceptable I saved money and refused to give them money.
don't buy cod now unless dedicated servers - I find their servers ass and will not be giving money to them.
skipped every bioware game after DA2 - it was horrid and I have no faith in bioware. I may even pick up ME:A on the cheap though after taking close looks at reviews.
establish a short list of developers I trust to send out a good product: Rockstar, .... uh.... well I said short list. Also I do trust ND but unfortunately I'm not much for 3rd person shooters or adventure games , my gf loves them so I try to cheap out and buy them used lol.
In the end this has made me relatively indifferent to bad releases as I usually just think "oh I can get that cheap later if I want". Some it has been downright satisfying by saying "whew I didn't spend money on that pos".
for example I have made decisions which feel great after the fact such as :
skipped bf hardline after the bf4 poor launch. love bf but no that was not acceptable I saved money and refused to give them money.
don't buy cod now unless dedicated servers - I find their servers ass and will not be giving money to them.
skipped every bioware game after DA2 - it was horrid and I have no faith in bioware. I may even pick up ME:A on the cheap though after taking close looks at reviews.
establish a short list of developers I trust to send out a good product: Rockstar, .... uh.... well I said short list. Also I do trust ND but unfortunately I'm not much for 3rd person shooters or adventure games , my gf loves them so I try to cheap out and buy them used lol.
In the end this has made me relatively indifferent to bad releases as I usually just think "oh I can get that cheap later if I want". Some it has been downright satisfying by saying "whew I didn't spend money on that pos".
Primethius
Banned
Kinda the latter? It has a couple of oddities here and there but mostly it's a pretty great localization.
So people are calling Andromeda an unfinished game now? Jesus.
I get it has performance issues in consoles, I get the animations are not up to today's standards and that the game has bugs, but calling it unfinished is nonsense. Most of these issues that people complain about are completely subjective, how much animations and bugs, etc, affect your overall experience and enjoyment of the game is completely up to your own standards and what you look for in the game.
Batman Arkham Knight was a broken game on PC, it prevented the enjoyment of the game for about 90% of the PC community unless you had a beast of a computer or you were extremely lucky with your setup.
Andromeda is not a broken or unfinished game, should they have held back release to work on it's current issues? Absolutely, but saying it's unfinished is a bit too much in my opinion. BioWare didn't lie about the game's features or content like NMS, they didn't lie to your face by showing you PC footage with smooth 60 FPS like Batman did which was apparently an impossible thing to achieve once the game came out.
Come on people, this is getting ridiculous, the game does need bug fixing and better animations but it's far from broken or unfinished. Andromeda is not even in the same ball park as NMS or Batman.
I get it has performance issues in consoles, I get the animations are not up to today's standards and that the game has bugs, but calling it unfinished is nonsense. Most of these issues that people complain about are completely subjective, how much animations and bugs, etc, affect your overall experience and enjoyment of the game is completely up to your own standards and what you look for in the game.
Batman Arkham Knight was a broken game on PC, it prevented the enjoyment of the game for about 90% of the PC community unless you had a beast of a computer or you were extremely lucky with your setup.
Andromeda is not a broken or unfinished game, should they have held back release to work on it's current issues? Absolutely, but saying it's unfinished is a bit too much in my opinion. BioWare didn't lie about the game's features or content like NMS, they didn't lie to your face by showing you PC footage with smooth 60 FPS like Batman did which was apparently an impossible thing to achieve once the game came out.
Come on people, this is getting ridiculous, the game does need bug fixing and better animations but it's far from broken or unfinished. Andromeda is not even in the same ball park as NMS or Batman.
Honestly, I think FFXV was released exactly how Tabata wanted it. More stuff was always planned a year in advance to come out with the bro DLC. The backlash from the fans is what inspired the promise of additional story scenes and gameplay changes, which is not necessarily a bad idea. Why shouldn't developers listen to fans after game launches to ensure their games reach their full potential?
Not everyone will have to deal with enterprise level software. Besides, Surely it's not acceptable to make paying customers beta testers?
And while I don't quite think we're there yet (hyperbole is strong sometimes) perhaps we're trending toward it?
There's definitely a conversation worth having here beyond "get used to it, other software is shot too!".
Anyone who thinks that NMS, FFXV or Mass Effect launched 'unfinished' has to be fucking joking. All three of those games (especially the latter two) are easily on the same level or better than the content received in a great majority of games launched during the supposed "golden era of gaming" before patching methods were available. The difference is that the customer feedback loop actually exists now and they can fix things that people dislike or find bad. Hell, these games are better than other titles launching now that will never get patched.
SFV isn't relevant to the the topic, its a completely different business model. If you don't want to wait for content, don't buy a game that is quite clear about how its going to drip feed it to you over the next few years. The model isn't new either, its existed as long as B2P MMOs have or longer.
I don't even know what to say about Persona 5.
SFV isn't relevant to the the topic, its a completely different business model. If you don't want to wait for content, don't buy a game that is quite clear about how its going to drip feed it to you over the next few years. The model isn't new either, its existed as long as B2P MMOs have or longer.
I don't even know what to say about Persona 5.
ultrazilla
Member
Embrace your all digital future!
The most disrespectful, arrogant, "fuck you" to fans by releasing games clearly not finished and then making the customer download massive "day 1 patches" or multiple patches to get the game up and running or fixing bugs that should have been dealt with in q and a.
It's the single worst thing to hit the video game industry ever, IMHO.
One of the main reasons I bought a Nintendo Switch and I'm loving it. Cartridges. While some titles needed patches, they're nowhere near the size of other "multi-gig" offerings we have come to accept as "normal" from Sony and MS along with the publishers who are just looking at the bottom line.
The problem is, video game fans aren't doing anything about it. That's obvious. All the bitching and moaning about "micro-transactions" and then we see Rockstar/Take 2 bragging that they've brought in millions and millions of dollars from microtransactions(GTA V) or content being cut from the game to be sold as Expansion Packs(Destiny and Destiny 2). Or simply lied to ala "No Man's Sky" for content we were told we'd get in the game and then find out it's nowhere to be seen.
Don't know about anyone else but I've already sworn off "Early Access" titles-no exceptions.
I'm just about ready to stop day 1 buying if I hear the game is going to need a huge patch to run or to fix the bugs.
Sigh.
The most disrespectful, arrogant, "fuck you" to fans by releasing games clearly not finished and then making the customer download massive "day 1 patches" or multiple patches to get the game up and running or fixing bugs that should have been dealt with in q and a.
It's the single worst thing to hit the video game industry ever, IMHO.
One of the main reasons I bought a Nintendo Switch and I'm loving it. Cartridges. While some titles needed patches, they're nowhere near the size of other "multi-gig" offerings we have come to accept as "normal" from Sony and MS along with the publishers who are just looking at the bottom line.
The problem is, video game fans aren't doing anything about it. That's obvious. All the bitching and moaning about "micro-transactions" and then we see Rockstar/Take 2 bragging that they've brought in millions and millions of dollars from microtransactions(GTA V) or content being cut from the game to be sold as Expansion Packs(Destiny and Destiny 2). Or simply lied to ala "No Man's Sky" for content we were told we'd get in the game and then find out it's nowhere to be seen.
Don't know about anyone else but I've already sworn off "Early Access" titles-no exceptions.
I'm just about ready to stop day 1 buying if I hear the game is going to need a huge patch to run or to fix the bugs.
Sigh.
Chronospherics
Member
I really don't think Persona 5 deserves to be amoung those games in the list.
Heck, even No Man's Sky doesn't deserve to be there. It's just a mediocre game, they weren't obligated to fix it, the majority of the patches they've issued are more than they ever promised before launch. It was a new game from an incy studio.
Heck, even No Man's Sky doesn't deserve to be there. It's just a mediocre game, they weren't obligated to fix it, the majority of the patches they've issued are more than they ever promised before launch. It was a new game from an incy studio.
hikarutilmitt
Member
It doesn't, but it's also fair to compare it because the idea is that games didn't used to release this way and many of them did. I remember very specifically that SO3, in Japan, had a super game breaking bug on some systems. The director's cut was partially a result of this. I would almost say this is one of the first times you could say this was relevant: the DC added some stuff that was probably supposed to be there anyway and may have been cut during production and fixed a ton of "tri-Ace bugs" that were relatively common in their games. If anything it's better now simply because games _can_ be patched later.
This. So much this. I know it's not ideal, but some of the crap people don't see is amazing because they're simply never exposed to it. Busted products meant for _businesses_ are crazy and common as all hell. It's just accepted as a normal thing, too.
ScientificPizza
Banned
why people still crazy
Yeah I complete agree with you, except with NMS since they did say a lot of things that were not possible in the game at release, though most of it was pure speculation and hype from people.
But seriously, Final Fantasy and ME:A are not unfinished games, they require some work and performance fixes, etc, but the game is complete, if you like it or not or if you were bothered too much by animations, low framerate, etc, that's entirely up to each individuals standards.
Also guess what people? Even your top GOTY games like Zelda BoTW and Witcher 3 did not come out in a perfect "complete" state, they were patched out and ironed out in the following months with patches.
DoctorFish
Member
I think what will largely be a rude awakening for people who may not be aware is the fact that so many big games really do NEED their day 1 patches to run acceptably and without major bugs. This roadmap thing is just another extension of how prevalent it has become to ship out broken games and fix it with a download by the day it's released. Once these servers shut down, a lot of physical games will only be playable in a much worse state than most would remember or accept.
I agree with the other games on your list, but Persona 5 is not unfinished. There's questionable decisions on streaming made by the Japanese office, and the translation maybe could have been localised a little more effectively, but it is otherwise a polished-as-fuck game. The others you listed have far deeper problems in their design foundations.
It's a fucking shame and I'm not even sure it should be considered legal.
They're selling broken products but they're getting perfectly good money for it.
It's not a matter of not liking the product, it's that as a customer, a game plagued with bugs and performance issues shouldn't be considered suitable for sale.
I don't give two shits if you're not making it into this fiscal year or if you need to meet a schedule, if your game is not finished don't release it, and if by any chance I end up buying your unfinished game by mistake, you'll give me my money back because I've been lied to and your game doesn't meet the minimum standards.
They're selling broken products but they're getting perfectly good money for it.
It's not a matter of not liking the product, it's that as a customer, a game plagued with bugs and performance issues shouldn't be considered suitable for sale.
I don't give two shits if you're not making it into this fiscal year or if you need to meet a schedule, if your game is not finished don't release it, and if by any chance I end up buying your unfinished game by mistake, you'll give me my money back because I've been lied to and your game doesn't meet the minimum standards.
Synless
Member
I mean, FFXV shipped reviewed with a meta of 88 and was liked quite well by players and saw a sales increase on a series in decline. This is all without any updates. I say anything they improve is a bonus they didn't even need to touch. My experience and the experience my peers had was more than adequate with the game. No Mans Sky and Mass Effect however did not review quite as well and did/do need fixing.
semiconscious
Member
'etc'? what else you got? lumping p5 into this group feels like you're maybe trying a little too hard?
...I think in the case of Siege, their model for the game changed post release. It became more of a live game experience, like Hitman, where they introduced the idea of the game as a platform and having 'seasons' of DLC keeping the game fresh. I don't think it fits within the 'patches are too big' debate personally because of this.
archreaper93
Member
somethingsomethingmiyamotoquotesomething
Same. I preorder the games I want.
Agreed, There's nothing wrong with how they handled FFXV, It is a great game that's only getting better.
Exactly. I feel the same way.
You should stop buying day one, if you have that much issues with games than it doesn't hurt to hold off, I also disagree with most of your examples.
GTA V was finished and the multiplayer mode can be played without paying any microtranactions.
Destiny has issues but the expansions weren't just finished content that should have been in the game in the first place, There was a bunch of issues with the game but the expansions were not one of them.
No Man Sky is an issue and that was handled poorly from the developer and the lack of communication but it's really not happening as much as you are saying it is.
MegaSackman
Member
No roadmap, no buy.
It sucks but until gamers come together and stop buying unfinished games the practice isn't going anywhere. Companies can get away with it so why change? No game should even be preordered no matter how much you want it.
Unless some law is passed or something I see it getting worse not better.
Unless some law is passed or something I see it getting worse not better.
Yeah, the PS3 Skyrim thing really puts it in perspective.
Splatoon also had a similar issue on Day 1, but Nintendo didn't waste any time rolling out additional stages, weapons, & modes later. I suppose it all depends on how the content is delivered.
As for SFV's roster, SF rosters usually start small for the first iteration (see SFII, Alpha 1, III: New Generation, IV's arcade release). Though I do agree that more content should have been there at launch in terms of modes. But long-term interest has remained within the FGC, to the point where it's now being aired on TV.
As for SFV's roster, SF rosters usually start small for the first iteration (see SFII, Alpha 1, III: New Generation, IV's arcade release). Though I do agree that more content should have been there at launch in terms of modes. But long-term interest has remained within the FGC, to the point where it's now being aired on TV.
sturgboski
Member
Someone forgot Destiny and Diablo 3. And I am a fan AND apologist for both.
I think FF15 is in a better place than NMS...I mean sure some stuff needed fixing (I believe CH 13 was being completely redone?) but its a far cry from NMS which shipped and is getting patches to make it the game it was advertised to be (truly an Early Access title).
NMS is definitely the most disappointing from hype, but from what I have read of Andromeda, that is probably the worst as it seems to be largely a step backward for a storied series. As a lot of folks have called it, its like the Return of Jafar of Mass Effect which is all the more a travesty based on the franchise up that point (even including the instagram filter ending of 3).
Bethesda is the most frustrating studio for me. Every single game is showered in GOTY awards and constant praise. Yet every single game is mired in bugs that arent just "oh the texture is flickering" but of the "well on PS3 you cant actually get out of the starting vault until version 1.01 comes out for Fallout 3" or "we put a patch out to resolve an issue where saves might corrupt, but also introduced a new one that might corrupt saves." Like Bethesda for some reason gets passes from everyone when even Eurojank titles are put together with more care. The argument is always "but look at the possibilities and freedom" and that is some BS when the longer I play the title the shittier the quality gets because of shit memory management and drastic lack of polish.
I think FF15 is in a better place than NMS...I mean sure some stuff needed fixing (I believe CH 13 was being completely redone?) but its a far cry from NMS which shipped and is getting patches to make it the game it was advertised to be (truly an Early Access title).
NMS is definitely the most disappointing from hype, but from what I have read of Andromeda, that is probably the worst as it seems to be largely a step backward for a storied series. As a lot of folks have called it, its like the Return of Jafar of Mass Effect which is all the more a travesty based on the franchise up that point (even including the instagram filter ending of 3).
Bethesda is the most frustrating studio for me. Every single game is showered in GOTY awards and constant praise. Yet every single game is mired in bugs that arent just "oh the texture is flickering" but of the "well on PS3 you cant actually get out of the starting vault until version 1.01 comes out for Fallout 3" or "we put a patch out to resolve an issue where saves might corrupt, but also introduced a new one that might corrupt saves." Like Bethesda for some reason gets passes from everyone when even Eurojank titles are put together with more care. The argument is always "but look at the possibilities and freedom" and that is some BS when the longer I play the title the shittier the quality gets because of shit memory management and drastic lack of polish.
joecanada
Member
I agree like I don't give Bethesda a pass, but problem is they still do stuff you can't really get out of other games.... so it's like waiting for a modern stalker to come out but it just never does so we get fallout lol. I still play fallout 4 with mods, but as I did for most of the game I'm largely just messing around. look at other open world games like dayz , also buggy messes. it's a tough call on those. I would say don't buy them new is the way to go ... I got fallout 4 with game sharing so I'm not worried. that way you aren't really supporting them but you aren't completely ignoring either.... by the way Fallout 3 GOTY edition was the worst of all because all the dlc froze the damn game.... so waiting didn't help .... I didn't buy that either though borrowed it.
HelloNewman
Member
The worst part is the lengths people will go through to write off any flaws. With Mass Effect Andromeda everything wrong with the game from a story point of view was that they were just civilians not trained military so any plot hole was written off as rookie mistakes.
Reminds me of people trying to rationalize DA2's repeated areas as "Framed around Varric's narrative".
Warablo
Member
Every online Ubisoft game.
J
JeremyEtcetera
Unconfirmed Member
The real question here is this: Why are video games becoming more and more broken/unfinished when just 1 generation ago it was slightly better, and the generation before that was slightly better as well. We are not expecting 100% polish but we at least want games that match the quality of a generation that we just went through not long ago. If that level of quality can't even be matched(and that's not asking for much) then we have a legitimate problem that needs to be addressed and quite honestly needed to be addressed years ago. It shouldn't have to reach a breaking point with consumers before publishers and developers finally start reeling back on releasing unfinished products for 60 dollars.
HelloNewman
Member
Another bug that's totally a feature if you ask reddit is that in multiplayer the game won't match one person or two person party with anyone else I've sat for twenty minutes before and never gotten a soul in my matches. But according to reddit it's everything but the matchmaking being broken.
LightofRohan
Member
The people that make the game and the people that decide when a game releases aren't always the same people. So sometimes they arent seeing eye to eye and these things happen, because they literally have to.
I know a lot of people here like to live in the rosey world of, "Just release it when its 100% perfect" but it's not a reality in any discipline. Some are privileged to not have it as severely as others, but it's always prevalent and it's how things are. As long as they don't abandon it I think it's fine... people get overly dramatic about this crap.
I know a lot of people here like to live in the rosey world of, "Just release it when its 100% perfect" but it's not a reality in any discipline. Some are privileged to not have it as severely as others, but it's always prevalent and it's how things are. As long as they don't abandon it I think it's fine... people get overly dramatic about this crap.
Prince of Space
Banned
Exactly this. The notion that FFXV shipped as an incomplete game is false. Controlling the other 3 bros was known to be DLC long before release, and most of the changes to the main game have been minor tweaks with more robust features planned down the line. It's no different from Square's old International Version days.
Azure Phoenix
Member
I've noticed 1 spelling error and a few lines that are translated too literally from Japanese in 18 hours. It's the latter.
Taliban Stan
Member
I purchased The Division and Mass Effect. MEA is totally on me. But I'm done. It shouldn't happen period, but all I can do is speak with my dollars. I will wait a few months for every game going forward. It's the better move to make anyways. I don't podcast or write reviews. It's not like I have to play day one to make a living or anything.
Good lord I wish this shit was true, but it's pretty patently not. I certainly don't support the "release it now, patch it later" approach, but at least that's an option. There an numerous broken ass games from the NES/SNES/GB/Genesis and even PSX days that will just never be fixed except by people making fan patches on rom hacking sites.
The idea that "you had to release a finished game and that was that in the old days" is somewhat of a logical fallacy. I still remember losing save games in some games (the worst being FFVI) to relatively easy to reproduce bugs, or the number of times I got stuck in a game because I hit some dumb game breaking bug or collision problem (Sonic 3 was fucking FULL of this shit, to the point where the manual basically warned you about it). And you can say it's not the same, but can you imagine if some of that shit happened in modern games? People would lose their minds. But nah, those are the classics in the good ol' days. No biggie. That's before some of the many obviously and criminally unfinished games - Soul Reaver, as much as I ADORE that game and series, was a very clearly cut up and unfinished game, with tons of stuff both from previews, demos, and even in game foreshadowing just not existing in the game. That game was not done, it was hacked away and something thrown together to end it where they could so that they could call the game done.
That said I feel like we have three entirely different degrees of offense here. Forget P5, that game is fine. NMS was basically a game that never should've come out in the state it did, and the fact that it did is ridiculous - it should've been delayed numerous times.
FFXV wasn't without it's problems, but overall the game was "fine", in that it was a perfectly playable game personal preferences aside. Could it have used time in the over? Yes. Was it a bad game? Nah, but definitely one that needed like another half year and some more decisive decision making, from the sound of it. I'm okay with the game we got, but it needed more time and the idea that they're patching in story is pretty mindboggling.
ME: Andromeda is an... interesting game because personally I think people are blowing literally everything about it out of proportion and kind of need to get over it. The game is immensely fun, perfectly playable outside of some strange bugs, and the story is good if somewhat bland (which, let's face it, is pretty standard for BioWare games). BioWare NEEDING to patch the game is a little on the ridiculous side, and it exists because the itnernet picked out a few questionable things and blew them up over it. I put that one more on people being over reactionary than on BioWare being fuckups. Some more polish is always welcome in a game, but I don't know that it would've changed much.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
It's a good thing OP didn't pick up Halo MCC at launch. That's probably the biggest shit show I've experienced this gen. I'd take freaky animations over that mess any day.
I'm guessing he wanted to increase thread eyeballs/controversy by lumping Persona 5 with the lot.
So do people literally stop reading after the words "Persona 5"?
I explained the reasons why I included it, and also made a point to say that it wasn't as bad as the other bad examples.
But it can still fall victim to the "Hey, thanks for our fans for bringing up this thing, look foward to patches!" response a week from now.
J
JeremyEtcetera
Unconfirmed Member
You have no idea how much this happens online, even on NeoGaf. People focus more on headlines than content in this current era. That's why you have to adapt to this new form of quick glance reading and be careful how you word things or else you derail your own thread and derail your entire argument. I even double check my posts all the time before I post anything serious or controversial so that something isn't taken the wrong way.