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*Shock and AWE* Sony Says Move is NOT Wii on PS3
- Thread starter Baki
- Start date
Version 3.0
Member
cakefoo said:
Speak for yourself. Tennis is a breeze for me. I find ping-pong to be much harder.
AceBandage
Banned
yoopoo said:
Scientifical.
AceBandage said:
who cares? We're a hardcore gaming forum and so a lot of hardcore gaming fans should be happy that they're getting more games aimed at them with the motion controls they supposedly like!
But no, it's always about "missing the point" of aiming at people who hate games anyway and aren't you or me or anyone else on this goddamn forum.
Nintendo fans are the most self-hating group on earth. Learn to be selfish. You are gaming for yourself. Demand games for YOURSELF.
If you guys actually liked motion controls, you'd say "thank god! A company who is going to be making games for me with even more precise motion controls!"
Instead "IS THERE A MARKET FOR IT!? HOW MANY GRANDMAS WILL PLAY THIS ON TUESDAY?" Jerking it to sales charts might be quaint in the NPD threads, but at the end of the day you're supposed to be in this to enjoy yourself. And hardcore gamers on a hardcore gaming forum are going to enjoy hardcore games aimed at hardcore players.
DeaconKnowledge said:
So we should be aiming for less precise controls? Getting even more precise controls is apparently superfluous?
This is what I'm talking about. You guys don't like motion controls. You like a company who makes the motion controls. You're goddamn fanboys stuck on a fucking gerbil wheel.
Hypereides
Member
yoopoo said:
Subtle.
AceBandage
Banned
Amir0x said:
Uhh, ok.
My point was more "Companies like profit, and if they don't think there's a profit there, they won't make games for it."
But please, feel free to continue to rant.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Oh man, this thread got awesome.
AceBandage said:
Right, and I'd believe that... except when the criticism from this thread has uniformly been "oh fuck man they're not marketing it to grandma and making games for grandma! WAY TO MISS THE POINT OF MOTION CONTROLS!"
The point of motion controls for hardcore gamers is to provide motion controls for games they like. I don't even like the fucking current state of motion controllers, but you know what? Sony's comment was pretty goddamn gracious to Nintendo ("they've done a superb job") while trying to form their own niche. And for hardcore gamers, the only thing that should matter is whether they're making games they like for THEM. Not how it's gonna fucking sell to grandma.
And is there a market for it? Is there a large enough market to justify high budget motion controlled games? Uhm, yes? People buy hardcore games in the millions all the time. If motion controls are as worthy as you seem to believe on your platform of choice, then would this not apply to the same type of games as well?
Call of Duty is a huge franchise and it sold very well on Wii, and it had motion controls. Now imagine a non-gimped version of Call of Duty with motion controls. Will it sell? Is there sales to justify the budget? Of course.
This "will it sell?" garbage is coded language for "you're doing it wrong, needs more Nintendo."
AceBandage
Banned
RavenFox said:
"The Nintendo" is doing a superb job because they realize that accessibility sells.
Sony, however, thinks that if you make something less accessible but more "rewarding" it will sell just as well.
Right, and I'd believe that... except when the criticism from this thread has uniformly been "oh fuck man they're not marketing it to grandma and making games for grandma! WAY TO MISS THE POINT OF MOTION CONTROLS!"
The point of motion controls for hardcore gamers is to provide motion controls for games they like. I don't even like the fucking current state of motion controllers, but you know what? Sony's comment was pretty goddamn gracious to Nintendo ("they've done a superb job") while trying to form their own niche. And for hardcore gamers, the only thing that should matter is whether they're making games they like for THEM. Not how it's gonna fucking sell to grandma.
And is there a market for it? Is there a large enough market to justify high budget motion controlled games? Uhm, yes? People buy hardcore games in the millions all the time. If motion controls are as worthy as you seem to believe on your platform of choice, then would this not apply to the same type of games as well?
Call of Duty is a huge franchise and it sold very well on Wii, and it had motion controls. Now imagine a non-gimped version of Call of Duty with motion controls. Will it sell? Is there sales to justify the budget? Of course.
This "will it sell?" garbage is coded language for "you're doing it wrong, needs more Nintendo."
Are they going to make that Call of Duty exclusively for the Move though? Will they make any game of that size budget for the Move exclusively?
Even the Wii version of those games are severely trimmed down and missing features (or coming out 2 years late...).
I'm not saying they won't include the options for Move controls, but they won't be the selling point of those games or Move, especially if they market chooses not to support the device.
However, Sony CAN guarantee that it the market will support move, if they realize that making it pick up and play will get it into people's hands much easier than adding a "rewarding experience".
The majority of people that play games don't care about a reward down the road, they want instant gratification.
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
MrPliskin said:
Yes? He posted a gif showing the person doing something that the game isn't programed to do versus one in which the person is doing something that the game is programed to do.
MrPliskin said:
If you've actually played the game you would know that the game intentionally limits the controllers movement. :lol
See many other of the Wii Sports Resort games for my case and point. A poster above posted videos.
Amir0x said:
Amir0x said:
From all appearances, the comment is not even accurate to what Sony is actually making with the Move. They've announced pretty much the same casualware garbage Wii has. There's no indication it's any less "accessible", artstyle aside. If anything, THAT is the main problem.
Indeed, the comment more likely refers to the added possibilities of a controller that can do more than the Wiimote can. You have more potential for the hardcore gamers, more potential to test gamer's skills.
The goal should be the most precise and accurate form of motion controls possible if you like the technology. All I see is petulant Nintendo fans looking at an opportunity to mock a company who is by all measure reaffirming their outlook.
As I always say, these people who are bitching do not like games or motion controls. They like a company. They like an idea, and that's Nintendo. If they liked the technology, they'd be lauding any attempt to expand it or improve the technology. If they're a hardcore gamer participating in a hardcore gaming forum, I'd expect they'd appreciate a company focusing more on THEM.
Instead, these self-hating fanboys look for the next opportunity to be hypocrites.
Indeed, the comment more likely refers to the added possibilities of a controller that can do more than the Wiimote can. You have more potential for the hardcore gamers, more potential to test gamer's skills.
The goal should be the most precise and accurate form of motion controls possible if you like the technology. All I see is petulant Nintendo fans looking at an opportunity to mock a company who is by all measure reaffirming their outlook.
As I always say, these people who are bitching do not like games or motion controls. They like a company. They like an idea, and that's Nintendo. If they liked the technology, they'd be lauding any attempt to expand it or improve the technology. If they're a hardcore gamer participating in a hardcore gaming forum, I'd expect they'd appreciate a company focusing more on THEM.
Instead, these self-hating fanboys look for the next opportunity to be hypocrites.
Yea, exactly. I'm still on the fence about MOVE because what they've shown, contradicts what they've been saying. I'm still hoping that they can deliver on what they "promise". The technology is exciting but if it's all for just casual gaming then it's all for no reason. Hopefully we get a lot more insight at E3.Amir0x said:
AceBandage said:
That's the big benefit of PS3 Move over Wii. PS3 Move games can be ported from 360 and PC, just like all other PS3 games. All features and modes can be applied over the same infrastructure any other game can, infinitely superior online and all.
If they're making Call of Duty PS3 anyway, in other words, it's little effort to implement a motion control portion and then that version has everything every other version has but more.
The reward is improving. Even the shittiest game requires some learning curve. The enjoyment people get is from mastering it. Depending on your skill level, you want lower or higher skill curves.
People might not put the finger on "rewards" from "practice", but inevitably everyone understands the joy of overcoming challenges and mastering something.
In any event, I think that comment is the least important thing he even said.
The real problem with PS3 Move getting support is merely that it's coming too late into the systems life span. Sony should have waited until PS4 to really launch this thing.
AceBandage
Banned
Amir0x said:
Most regular gamers love a challenge. The mainstream, however, not so much.
I mean, look at the top selling games of the generation. Games that have a fairly small learning curve.
If you want Move in more hands, you'll make games that are easier to pick up and play.
As for it coming out too late to matter, I completely agree. Both Sony and MS are going about this completely wrong by launching it so late, and unless they come out with something HUGE for the devices, it might end up hurting them more in the long run, as they won't get the benefit of the doubt next gen from consumers.
We'll see though. So far, neither Natal or Move have shown me anything impressive, outside of putting Wii controls on games in HD.
I'll speak for myself and the majority of humans. Table tennis uses lighter paddles, lighter balls, has a smaller play area, cheaper equipment, requires less running, less strength to return the ball, apply english, etc. And it all translates well 1:1 to a motion controller in front of a tv.Leondexter said:
Actual tennis, however, requires large, strong swings, perfect contact with the face of the racket, tons of running and grunting, etc, which isn't going to feel as authentic with a light remote in a cramped playing area.
Certain sports will be adaptable to motion controls more thoroughly than others.
AceBandage said:
I think this is also a misreading of the market. People have a tendency to believe that mainstream/casual want castrated games, inoffensive to the tenth degree. Where nothing is an obstacle and everything is a poorly constructed mini-game!
But what I believe is that if you give a casual something they WANT to do, they'll spend the time to get over any learning curve and then some. It wasn't long ago you had casuals staring blankly into a screen to conquer even the most difficult games.
But they moved on. And Nintendo wisely thought the step to bringing them in is to implement a control that feels more natural to them. Not so that they'll have no challenge, but so that the user will feel less of an obstacle to overcoming the challenges they DO face.
It's the interface Nintendo ultimately decided was the barrier. It is the developer's who wrongly mistook the strategy to mean "mini-game collections" and shitty mascot titles.
Casuals are not dumb. I hate to break it to most people, but Grand Theft Auto is casual. Call of Duty is casual. Mario is casual. World of Warcraft is casual.
Some of these games are immensely complex by the standard of your typical 'casual.' But if they enjoy it, they'll sit there and damn it they'll learn what it means to get good at it.
A personal anecdote. Pikmin 2 is by any measure a pretty complex game for casuals. My mom and sister are pretty damn casual. But for some reason, they liked it. They liked it so much that they looked passed the GCN controller (which they always found too complex for titles) and they looked passed the inherent complexity of the concept and they became good at it. So good, in fact, that they can routinely beat me in multiplayer and I've played for near a hundred hours.
The point? It's not challenge that casuals fear but concepts that don't appeal to them. If you give them something they WANT to play, they will learn the fuck out of it.
AceBandage
Banned
Amir0x said:
I agree, they aren't dumb. However, all of those games are very pick up and play. You can spend a few minutes to a few hours in each of them. Depending on how much you want to get out of them.
They have a fairly shallow learning curve that guides the player fairly well through it.
It's when you want to go deeper that it begins to become complex. Which is why they have mass appeal, and not just casual appeal.
However, and to get to my original point. Sony says that pick up and play was fine for the Wii, but people want more of a learning curve. Which goes counter to what makes a CoD, or a WoW or a Mario so popular.
cakefoo said:
Yes, tennis need a bigger strength and stamina, but in table tennis you need more agility and a faster comprehension and reaction. The important parts is that both player need to have some skill or there will be no build up to a longer exchange of blows. What is the most fun and existing part of the game. While you try to hold in ball into the game, you also have to eliminate your opponent before he tricks you out. So it not so easy like you think.
Saint Gregory
Member
:/ OK you do seem to understand the point of the Wii so why do you seem confused by people questioning the strategy of making Move all about "precision". Not that Sony has given us any indication that this is anything but PR speak but let's take them at their word that what seperates Move from Wii is its precision. There's nothing wrong with a controler being as precise as possible but once the experience becomes all about sub-pixel 3D movement what is it that we're trying to translate into the game world here?Amir0x said:
I don't know about you but I play games to escape reality and in real life I'm not the most coordinated person I know. The last thing I need is a game to remind how awful I am at tennis or golf or swordfighting. . . you get the idea. As much as people complained about it early on Nintendo understood that people would get more enjoyment from feeling that they're better at activities than they are in real life. Hell, would CoD sell millions of copies without all that aim-assist making video soldiers think they're killing machines? If Move translates that precision into meaningful game interaction in new ways we haven't experienced then I take back everything I say but I can't say right now that I'll pick one up just to play HD motion games.
Amir0x said:
This. A couple of days ago I read a post by a Wii user who said, "Move doesn't really interest me in the slightest" but he had also stated that he "was looking forward to a Wii HD."
The cognitive dissonance in that is spectacular. At least the company I give props to gives me a paycheck every couple of weeks. I wonder what's really in it for Sonic Furries aside from meth-fueled Yiffery.
AceBandage
Banned
OuterWorldVoice said:
Me personally, I'm interested in the potential of Natal and Move, just none of the software (though, I could see me having some really horrible fun at the expense of Milo...).
Saint Gregory
Member
So the fact that someone wasn't interested (yet) in tech without compelling software but interested in playing games that he already owns in HD was a strange concept to you? Is this really what we've become?OuterWorldVoice said:
AceBandage
Banned
mr_nothin said:
Stop tag fishing.
timetokill
Banned
Man, this thread has been entertaining :lol
For me I'm glad that motion controls are expanding, and that Sony and Microsoft are joining the party. I'm excited to see what they do with it. And hopefully it will lead to third-parties treating the technology seriously and not as ineptly as they have for the most part with Wii.
For me I'm glad that motion controls are expanding, and that Sony and Microsoft are joining the party. I'm excited to see what they do with it. And hopefully it will lead to third-parties treating the technology seriously and not as ineptly as they have for the most part with Wii.
velvet_nitemare
Member
What a clusterfuck of a thread. The fanboy battle lines are clearly marked, the allegiances are incredibly obvious.
Saint Gregory
Member
Then that was mindless fandom at work. Even if we were to assume that the next Wii will have an improved Wii remote what Sony has in Move is already very impressive technically. What it all comes down to (and this always gets so lost in these threads) is software. The Wii would not be in the position it is now if it launched with Zelda and Mario but not Wii Sports. Natal and Move have got to come with something that at least seems to be as good of an introduction to their control methods as Wii Sports was in 2006 to have even a chance at success.OuterWorldVoice said:
Well thanks for joining us. Clearly there's no room on this board for anything other that SMG2 or Killzone screenshot discussion.DeathbyVolcano said:
DeathbyVolcano
Banned
This thread is pathetic. Enjoy fucking games, dudes, and get over everything else.
Saint Gregory said:
So your argument is we should have less precise, more shitty controllers because you don't want the possibility a developer might really utilize it and make you feel all inadequate? Or is this too strawman-y? I genuinely can't tell how to read your statement without bringing it to this logical conclusion.
Jesus christ.
Listen, first of all, a developer doesn't have to utilize the extra precision. They can make a game with all the limitations of wiimote to satisfy the insane set.
Second of all, again, if you LIKE HD/"hardcore" games... and you LIKE wiimote... then the only thing preventing one from anticipating what Sony is offering is a company battle line and the software currently on show.
I can respect if people who liked wii motion technology simply were hesitant to get about Move because they feel the software support isn't there. But these people would still be acknowledging the potential enhancement to what they love (motion technology) while stating the software issue. That never happens. Instead, it's about sales, or it's about grandma or it's about some hypothetical issue they have with some PR asshat's wording.
If you believe motion controls are the future then a little consistency is all I think should occur. If you play games and not companies, this is what matters... that the technology continues to improve. The hypocrisy is just so insufferable in these threads.
Speevy said:
You just backhandedly implied that the larger the budget the more complex the game.
Epic fucking fail dude.
OTOH reading these comments on these threads just makes me want for this time next year so we can get this BULLSHIT over with. The arguments are tired, chock full of fanboyism and shit on both sides to be honest. By this time next year we wont be discussing this anymore. Marking my freaking calendar.
Saint Gregory
Member
Dude, seriously, did you read what I said? Stop painting everyone who disagrees with you as wild-eyed ninthings /drinkyAmir0x said:
It's not about me wanting a less precise controller it's about me not wanting my gaming experiences reduced to life simulators. If Sony wants Move to be all about translating real movement 1:1 into in 3D space then show me software that explains why that will be fun.
If developers aren't going to make use of what makes Move unique then what were going to get is the same type of gesture based games we have on Wii in HD with more accuracy and I got bored with those types of games two years ago. You're making it seem like I'm going out of my way to belittle Move when in reality I'm taking issue with the idea that all we've been missing all this time from motion gaming is precision and not the software to make it worthwhile.
I don't think I've ever read a post that so accurately summed up the state of affairs regarding motion controls. The reason I'm so excited for this I'd because I love ld quite a fee games on the Wii that I felt were great simply because of the motion controls. There's no way I wouldn't want more of that, and for a more 'hardcore' gamer. It's like the best of both worlds... Who wouldn't want that.Amir0x said:
Bravo sir, Bravo.
Saint Gregory said:
If you don't like wii motion controls and related games, then you're not who I'm even aiming my comments at.
IF you like motion control technology and all you can do is find negative things to say about Move, a technology which by all reports improves upon that foundation laid by Nintendo, then yes I have a right to call comments from people like that suspect.
Precision, by the way, is about a lot more than just replicating real life. It's about responsiveness, it's about games responding to your input more consistently and more accurately. It's about less limitations upon what a developer can and cannot do with motion control games.
The ultimate expression of the motion controller would be a perfect level of precision. After that, a developer can choose to make a game as casual or as hardcore, as realistic or as fantastical as he/she chooses without limitations.
That's the final goal. You seem to fear that a developer is going to be demanded to make realistic games if the precision passes a certain point, but that's not going to happen.
There's nothing wrong with Move being Wii HD as far as I'm concerned, I'm just hesitant to see how this goes beyond the "neat accessory" stage just because it's so late and won't appear all that divergent from what people already have. That's the primary issue here, since the extra precision isn't going to mean much if no one supports it.
Though I suppose no one supports the Wii anyway, so I guess it'll just be maintaining the status quo.
Though I suppose no one supports the Wii anyway, so I guess it'll just be maintaining the status quo.
Wii = Mainstream + Core. Most of the core is from Nintendo.
PS Move = ?
It's already got a good start from the fact it isn't the system that third-parties have been putting crap on for years. Again, my hope is that this will turn out to be a boon for Wii third-party development, though, as they're more likely to get publisher approval for a core game across PS3 and Wii than they've been able to get through for Wii, since so many publishers have a stereotype in their head of what a Wii owner is.
By the way, Wii Fit can be hardcore. Maxing out all the exercises to the highest level, striving for perfect scores on Yoga, etc., etc.
PS Move = ?
It's already got a good start from the fact it isn't the system that third-parties have been putting crap on for years. Again, my hope is that this will turn out to be a boon for Wii third-party development, though, as they're more likely to get publisher approval for a core game across PS3 and Wii than they've been able to get through for Wii, since so many publishers have a stereotype in their head of what a Wii owner is.
By the way, Wii Fit can be hardcore. Maxing out all the exercises to the highest level, striving for perfect scores on Yoga, etc., etc.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
In every thread about motion control you keep making the argument that the Wiimote is what's holding Nintendo back from the bastion of game development it's been missing, and that somehow if you are arguing against what Move is doing you're a Wii fanboy who wants motion to die if Nintendo's not doing it.Amir0x said:
My entire argument in this thread has not been that the Move is less responsive than the Wiimote, or that it's a bad thing for Sony to be improving on Nintendo's technology. My argument has been that even with the marginal steps Sony has taken forward, not much will come of their effort if all they have done is make incremental steps to improve on Nintendo's formula. A few degrees more of control (that hasn't manifested itself in one single game we've seen yet) isn't going to "fix" what you claim to be wrong with the Wiimote. All Move will prove to be is a stop-gap solution, that sits at the Wii's table and eats the scraps that fall off. If this is your improvement - the same games we've seen but in HD, all I can say is whooptie shit.
Saint Gregory
Member
What Sony has done with Move is delivered on what Nintendo promised pre-Wii launch but was impossible because of the tech. I can understand why that would be exciting for someone that has never been interested in the Wii because of graphics or game selection or fandom or whatever but that ship has pretty much sailed with me. What seemed like great ideas in the Wii E306 promo video has turned out to be pretty boring to me and I find it so funny to see PS360 only gamers going through the same stages of excitement over their upcoming motion controllers so many years later.Amir0x said:
Full motion controls work well in very limited genres. Some developers have found ways to introduce them into Wii games that aren't distracting or worse than simply pushing a button for the same result but those games are few. That's not limited to the Wii either as usally the first thing I'd do in early PS3 games is turn the sixaxis function off as they were almost always so poorly utilized. The real revolution that the Wii has introduced this gen is pointer controls. I can't get enough of them and I'm generally pissed when I buy a Wii game that doesn't include them in some way. This is really why I'm kind of down on Move as it seems that they've sacrificed super acurate pointing in order to make the controller more precise in 3D space. Like I said before, if E3 comes and Sony shows me what that sacrifce is going to offer me as a gamer then they'll have customer for their new controller.
DeaconKnowledge said:
You mistake me for some Move advocate. I think all the current slate of motion controls are the wrong direction. I am specifically targeting the blatantly obvious hypocrisy of wii fans attitude toward Move, a technology which improves on the very thing they claim to like.
I think it's because they're threatened. It's the same thing when I hear people saying "OH I BET SONY WILL COPY NINTENDO WITH TOUCH SCREEN and 3D, FUCKING LOL". And all I think is "Hey I thought you liked touch screen and 3D for games? You don't want more developers making games with technology you love?"
It's just fanboy hypocrisy and I thought this was a good place to call 'em out.
Also...
DeaconKnowledge said:
If it has Wii games with a better controller and yet in HD, then it's a place to get the best versions of games on technology "I" claim to like. Whether you think that's "substantial" enough is not the point. We play games, and it's going to make better games using better technology.
Unless you have some... I don't know... allegiance... that makes it impossible for you to acknowledge the superiority of products not on a certain platform, then this is only a good thing for gamers.
If Move is a stopgap, then what would that then make the wiimote? A crippled piece of shit? Superior is superior.
The best thing about Move is seeing people who feuded with the wii for.... What 3-4 years all of a sudden love motion controls becuase Move adds slightly more " precision" or whatever as is "that" is what kept them back from playing SMG or MP3 or whatever else is considered a "hardcore" game.
This whole "celebrate motion control for gamers" nonsense will be forgetten by E3 when Natal and Move show off a bunch of wii knockoffs and Nintendo has WM+ Zelda.
This whole "celebrate motion control for gamers" nonsense will be forgetten by E3 when Natal and Move show off a bunch of wii knockoffs and Nintendo has WM+ Zelda.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
well, that was the price of such movie-grade equipment not that long ago. i honestly did not know natal used a time-to-flight depth cam, though - always thought they used an optical-based (stereo?) spatial resolver, and that's why natal was sensitive to backgrounds and was computationally costly. it's news to me the light-flight-timing tech has broken the consumer price range these days. anyway, that's not what move does, to the best of my knowledge.Graphics Horse said:Natal isn't going to be that expensive! There was a Richard Marks video demo where he used a natal like Zcam for tracking, he even applied the buffer to the camera's view, so artificial objects got depth tested against real life ones.