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[Bendz]

This has been addressed several times in this thread, by myself and many others. But instead of reading you feel the need to chime in with an obnoxious series of petulant trollish posts.

We know we're all hypocrites in one way or another. But in your world, people who make a conscious effort to be less hypocritical by being more informed in their purchasing decisions are self-important? What misanthropic bile. We know our not buying something has little effect in the greater scope of things. But a little bit is still better than nothing. Your mentality is that you can't do good in everything you do, so you might as well not try to do any good at all. What a sick fucking way of looking at life.

On the money. It's often said, but if people, individually, never acted because they thought that they couldn't achieve anything, then nothing would ever change. No matter how alone you feel in your views, chances are you really are part of a collective, no matter how small.

 

[Big B]

Boycotting a game because of someone's (who isn't even very closely tied to the game) opinions is equivalent to boycotting something because of someone's homosexuality.

It's like people don't even read the OP carefully or something.

 

[Coins]

From one who decided to just chime in without reading the thread:

Excuse me if my knowledge of American culture isn't up to speed (I'm not American), but in America, don't people have a right to an opinion just as much as you have a right to be homosexual?

Please show me where I said he didnt have a right to his opinion.

 

[Corto]

I didnt say it wasnt ok for you to buy the game.

I can't buy the game because I don't have a Xbox yet. But the questions were directed to you, not me. Would you buy the game if Card died this instant?

 

[Divvy]

It's like people don't even read the OP carefully or something.

Oh don't act surprised.

 

[soco]

so what's the consensus? are we lynching someone? can i use my new pitchfork?

shall i round up the other townsfolk?

 

[DangerousDave]

I will boicot the game

Spoiler

until I bought a 360. Then, It will be the first thing that I'll buy from XBLA

 

[Timber]

OSC is against gay marriage. The developers and he co-created this universe. He will recieve monies from the sale of the game. We are try to punish him because he has beliefs we disagree with.

But you still haven't explained how exactly we are punishing him simply by not buying a product. The italicized word is the key, here.

 

[Coins]

I can't buy the game because I don't have a Xbox yet. But the questions were directed to you, not me. Would you buy the game if Card died this instant?

Its irrelevant. Hes not dead.

Would you buy a shag carpet if the price of bananas topped out over 100 bushels a barrel?

 

[Dude Abides]

And those who try to pretend that they're above it all and the only impartial ones are the most amusing of all.:lol

.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Unless someone can show me a quote from OSC that he advocates HATE and not just disagrees with a political movement

Do you want a quote that says "Homosexuals suck" or what?

I can easily give you his stance that gay child-rearing would ruin America, equating gay adoptive parents to abusive adults by saying both should be kept by society from raising children.

There's a video from the organazation Card sits is on the board for portraying homosexuality as an ominous, gathering storm that will force you to gay marry. I am not kidding.

There's the quotes I posted earlier, the ones from Card's "Hypocrisy of Homosexuality," where he says it is the church's responsibility to counsel children out of homosexuality and, if it doesn't take, excommunicate them.

There's this cached article from Card on MormonTimes (cached because it was removed once it proved to be embarrassing) titled "The Science on Gays Falls Short." Here's an excerpt!

1. Science does not say that gays have no choice whatsoever.

2. Science does not say that homosexuality harms no one, and that homosexual liaisons are as valuable to society as marriage.

3. It is not unfair to give unique preference to monogamous heterosexual relationships, if that preference and those marriages benefit all of society -- including homosexuals or potential homosexuals.

So, no, you're right. He has never expressly said "Matthew Sheppard deserved it" or "We should burn the gays at the stake." To portray him as someone simply pushing against a policy he disagrees with his disingenuous, however.

 

[SonOfABeep]

I don't think that personal convictions and beliefs (and the convictions that Mr Card has certainly aren't outlandish or illegal) of content creators are worth getting so worked up about. Buy the game if you like it. Unless Orson Scott Card comes right out and says that a portion of his profits go towards lobbying congress against this thing that you're for, who gives a shit?

If the work is personally offensive and carries themes that don't agree with your beliefs, then go right ahead, but you don't have to agree with everything the content creators agree with in order to buy something.

I know the comparison argument has been brought up but I'm sure there's people who work for Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Squaresoft, Activision, EA, Atlus, Capcom, etc. etc. in some way or form that don't support gay marriage either. If we were to seek them out, what's the difference?

Or is it only an important matter to boycott when it's a prominent creative head of something that's holding that opinion?

I still say that 99% of the time these kinds of "boycotts" are done for attention. They're also stupid. If Shadow Complex is homophobic or anti-gay then that's one thing, but who cares if an author who's tangentially associated with it is? Find something important to get upset about.

 

[Duelist]

Buy the game if it's good, don't if it's not. Simple as that.

 

[Scrow]

i'm boycotting the xbox360, so unfortunately no Shadow Complex for me.

please release this on Steam for PC.

 

[Coins]

I don't think that personal convictions and beliefs (and the convictions that Mr Card has certainly aren't outlandish or illegal) of content creators are worth getting so worked up about. Buy the game if you like it. Unless Orson Scott Card comes right out and says that a portion of his profits go towards lobbying congress against this thing that you're for, who gives a shit?

They arent just his personal beliefs as he devotes a lot of time, money (mentioned in your post) and effort in ensuring gay rights are blocked.

 

[genjiZERO]

To OP:

Excuse me if my knowledge of American culture isn't up to speed (I'm not American), but in America, don't people have a right to an opinion just as much as you have a right to be homosexual?

Boycotting a game because of someone's (who isn't even very closely tied to the game) opinions is equivalent to boycotting something because of someone's homosexuality.

And I don't think quoting his "reproductive dysfunction" comment really supports your case. From a purely scientific point of view, homosexuality is a reproductive dysfunction. Whether or not that's a bad thing is up for debate, considering how overpopulated the world is. His other comments and actions are definitely inflammatory and insulting, but overall I think you're taking the issue far too seriously.

It's a damn good game, just buy it and enjoy it! I know I did.

Please explain how homosexuality is "scientifically" a reproductive dysfunction? Also, anti-homosexuality is bigotry. Boycotting someone who is anti-homosexual is boycotting anti-bigotry. Boycotting someone who is homosexual is supporting bigotry. There's a word of difference between the two...

 

[Corto]

Its irrelevant. Hes not dead.

Would you buy a shag carpet if the price of bananas topped out over 100 bushels a barrel?

You've just answered my reductio ad absurdum with a reductio ad ridiculum. That's bad logic and my participation in this thread is over.

 

[Bendz]

To OP:

Excuse me if my knowledge of American culture isn't up to speed (I'm not American), but in America, don't people have a right to an opinion just as much as you have a right to be homosexual?

Boycotting a game because of someone's (who isn't even very closely tied to the game) opinions is equivalent to boycotting something because of someone's homosexuality.

And I don't think quoting his "reproductive dysfunction" comment really supports your case. From a purely scientific point of view, homosexuality is a reproductive dysfunction. Whether or not that's a bad thing is up for debate, considering how overpopulated the world is. His other comments and actions are definitely inflammatory and insulting, but overall I think you're taking the issue far too seriously.

It's a damn good game, just buy it and enjoy it! I know I did.

This kind of goes to the root of free speech. It's a difficult subject, but I would say this. Yes OSC has the right to believe that homosexuality is wrong. However free speech is not a free for all. Democracy and free speech come with a weight of responsibility. If publically expressed opinions come at the cost of alienating a section of society for their views or beliefs, then you have gone too far. You begin to erode the very values that you set out to protect. I say again, if this debate was on almost any other kind of discrimination their would be no real debate.

The games industry still has a lot of growing up to do, in this area more than most. I cannot see how supporting a game associated with this kind of bigot helps the industry or anyone associated with it.

 

[Calcaneus]

Please explain how homosexuality is "scientifically" a reproductive dysfunction? Also, anti-homosexuality is bigotry. Boycotting someone who is anti-homosexual is boycotting anti-bigotry. Boycotting someone who is homosexual is supporting bigotry. There's a word of difference between the two...

Sounds the same to me. Wouldn't it be boycotting bigotry?

 

[GotchaForce]

This thread has been great to watch Chris Remo, Shidoshi, some of the mods and users kick ass in. I didn't know OSC was a loon, I feel bad for buying the game now.

 

[Chrange]

Please explain how homosexuality is "scientifically" a reproductive dysfunction?

A two-male or two-female couple can't reproduce. The "science" there isn't that hard really.

I'm all for gay marriage, but trying to argue against that particular idea is ridiculous.

 

[Truespeed]

This thread should not only be boycotted, but aborted with a coat hanger. The indignation of this poster makes me furious. Listen, Jimmy Swaggert, if you want to boycott this game because it conflicts with your moral beliefs then do it. But, I really think your intent was to just propagate controversial shit, you read elsewhere, just to start a topic.

And since we're on the topic of morals, can we see your browser cache?

 

[Odrion]

This has been addressed several times in this thread, by myself and many others. But instead of reading you feel the need to chime in with an obnoxious series of petulant trollish posts.

We know we're all hypocrites in one way or another. But in your world, people who make a conscious effort to be less hypocritical by being more informed in their purchasing decisions are self-important? What misanthropic bile. We know our not buying something has little effect in the greater scope of things. But a little bit is still better than nothing. Your mentality is that you can't do good in everything you do, so you might as well not try to do any good at all. What a sick fucking way of looking at life.

Sorry. I just knew that this question was going to be brought up, and the idea of a bunch of people being only socially conscious when some creative director decides that a XBLA game is going to take place in some bigot's sci-fi book got me angry and stupid.

I also have the belief that boycotting is a frivolous task, and I get mad when people choose that over something more active. If you care about homosexuals having equal rights, please donate to their organization or help at one of their ralleys. If you feel uncomfortable that Epic is collaborating with a bigot, I think it would be constructive to write to them explaining your feelings.


Just don't refuse to buy a beautiful 2D Metroidvania game. ;_;

 

[VALIS]

I'm sorry, but some of what you say isn't relevant to the issue at hand. You may be indirectly supporting slavery by buying computers, chocolate etc., but that has nothing to do with OSC's anti-homosexuality and boycotting products he supports or is involved with. You seem to assume that just because an individual feels compelled to boycott a certain product that they perceive as morally unjust that they must boycott all products that perceive as morally unjust. But this isn't true. The phrase "pick and choose you fights" exists for a reason.

You're not even purchasing an OSC product here, though! Argh!! You're making it sound like you're fighting the good fight against OSC's anti-homosexual opinions when Shadow Complex is a product made by dozens if not hundreds of people, does not promote or support those ideas or behaviors in any direct way, and the connection between it and OSC is almost fucking non-existent!

Why are some of you so willingly and blithely dancing around this goddamn fact? This is Al Sharpton-esque bullshit. Take a good cause but try to drive a fucking mack truck full of righteousness through any opening you get no matter how small or indirect. Yes, I agree one can't fight every fight and needs to pick and choose, but how about choosing ACTUAL fights instead of trying to invent them?

 

[ha1f]

If I had worked on this game and then come upon this thread I'd be so ridiculously pissed right now.

 

[cr_blah_blah]

This has been addressed several times in this thread, by myself and many others. But instead of reading you feel the need to chime in with an obnoxious series of petulant trollish posts.

We know we're all hypocrites in one way or another. But in your world, people who make a conscious effort to be less hypocritical by being more informed in their purchasing decisions are self-important? What misanthropic bile. We know our not buying something has little effect in the greater scope of things. But a little bit is still better than nothing. Your mentality is that you can't do good in everything you do, so you might as well not try to do any good at all. What a sick fucking way of looking at life.

But do you really make a conscious effort or just go the obviously pointed out option directly related to your hobby? I'm not being snarky, it's a genuine question. What you said comes off as pompous and self-righteous since there are lots of causes and this comes off like a lazy attempt at making a stand based on his prominence. I do agree that something is better than nothing but I also believe there are better things to get worked up over. I don't think not supporting an entire studio because of him is right to them, unless the game reflected his agenda. Of course there are holes in my view because there's no way my opinion can be fact.

(I also don't believe a lot of the boycotters were considering buying it anyways, which is just annoyingly lazy piggybacking)

 

[Coins]

This thread should not only be boycotted, but aborted with a coat hanger. The indignation of this poster makes me furious. Listen, Jimmy Swaggert, if you want to boycott this game because it conflicts with your moral beliefs then do it. But, I really think your intent was to just propagate controversial shit, you read elsewhere, just to start a topic.

And since we're on the topic of morals, can we see your browser cache?

I started this topic because I know there is a large gay community here and thought they would like to know what the story is behind the game.

What does my porn history have to do with anything?

 

[Mercury Fred]

If I had worked on this game and then come upon this thread I'd be so ridiculously pissed right now.

Would you be as pissed as a gay person in California who had the legal right to marry then had it stripped from them the next day?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

If you care about homosexuals having equal rights, please donate to their organization or help at one of their ralleys.

I do. Search back a few pages and I also recommend gay-friendly causes to donate to.

If you feel uncomfortable that Epic is collaborating with a bigot, I think it would be constructive to write to them explaining your feelings.

Already did. Microsoft games, too.

Just don't refuse to buy a beautiful 2D Metroidvania game. ;_;

Well, no. But if it makes you feel better, I wouldn't buy it anyway because it's sub-1080p and my 360 got an E74 error today. So it doesn't matter what I think. :lol

 

[BravoSuperStar]

This thread should not only be boycotted, but aborted with a coat hanger. The indignation of this poster makes me furious. Listen, Jimmy Swaggert, if you want to boycott this game because it conflicts with your moral beliefs then do it. But, I really think your intent was to just propagate controversial shit, you read elsewhere, just to start a topic.

Pretty much. It's good to know if I have a personal political agenda regarding a game or with someone involved with a game GAF will accommodate me with a soapbox to try and convert others to my way of thinking.

 

[Coins]

If I had worked on this game and then come upon this thread I'd be so ridiculously pissed right now.

Me too! Id be so mad that my company decided to work with a worthless homophobe.

 

[Pepto]

If you feel uncomfortable that Epic is collaborating with a bigot, I think it would be constructive to write to them explaining your feelings.

What do you think this thread is about? Doing it in a public forum gets the information out as a bonus.

 

[SonOfABeep]

Sorry. I just knew that this question was going to be brought up, and the idea of a bunch of people being only socially conscious when some creative director decides that a XBLA game is going to take place in some bigot's sci-fi book got me angry and stupid.

I also have the belief that boycotting is a frivolous task, and I get mad when people choose that over something more active. If you care about homosexuals having equal rights, please donate to their organization or help at one of their ralleys. If you feel uncomfortable that Epic is collaborating with a bigot, I think it would be constructive to write to them explaining your feelings.

Yeah, seriously. "boycotting" the biggest XBLA release of the year is not the way to move those goalposts on gay rights. This thread is just one big attention grab. Pathetic. If you want to talk about gay marriage/gay rights, take it to OT, if you want to talk about shadow complex, talk about shadow complex. This is neither here nor there.

OSC can do what he wants. Personally, I don't care. If gay marriage is a allowed or not doesn't affect me in the slightest way.

 

[Giolon]

I started this topic because I know there is a large gay community here and thought they would like to know what the story is behind the game.

What does my porn history have to do with anything?

Aha! He said nothing about porn. Now we know what you're doing when you're not on GAF! :lol

This thread really exploded while I was at work...

 

[ChoklitReign]

I bet OP has never watched a movie with Tom Cruise or Charlie Sheen in it. You need to learn to separate the artist from the art when the art has no ideological influences from the artist. It's a shame you wouldn't like Platoon or Minority Report. People buying Shadow Complex are not giving money to the Mormon Church or NOW; the GayGamer article is exaggerated. This is one of the silliest hot topics I've seen in a while.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

You're not even purchasing an OSC product here, though! Argh!! You're making it sound like you're fighting the good fight against OSC's anti-homosexual opinions when Shadow Complex is a product made by dozens if not hundreds of people, does not promote or support those ideas or behaviors in any direct way, and the connection between it and OSC is almost fucking non-existent!

Why are some of you so willingly and blithely dancing around this goddamn fact? This is Al Sharpton-esque bullshit. Take a good cause but try to drive a fucking mack truck full of righteousness through any opening you get no matter how small or indirect. Yes, I agree one can't fight every fight and needs to pick and choose, but how about choosing ACTUAL fights instead of trying to invent them?

Again

Chair and OSC worked on this game from the beginning. This is indisputable.

http://xbox.joystiq.com/2009/08/11/orson-scott-card-talks-shadow-complex-and-the-future-of-empir/

However, unlike his experience working on the poorly-received game Advent Rising -- which Card was brought into late to develop the game's story -- the author and Chair Entertainment collaborated from the beginning to bring the Empire book trilogy and Shadow Complex to life.

He did not force his way in to the project. Chair had to sign a piece of paper that involved him, they signed a paycheck to give to him. It was a strategic partnership and they knew Card's baggage when they agreed to it.

 

[Bendz]

The NOM website is terrifying. FFS. This is the downside to democracy.

Do you want a quote that says "Homosexuals suck" or what?

I can easily give you his stance that gay child-rearing would ruin America, equating gay adoptive parents to abusive adults by saying both should be kept by society from raising children.

There's a video from the organazation Card sits is on the board for portraying homosexuality as an ominous, gathering storm that will force you to gay marry. I am not kidding.

There's the quotes I posted earlier, the ones from Card's "Hypocrisy of Homosexuality," where he says it is the church's responsibility to counsel children out of homosexuality and, if it doesn't take, excommunicate them.

There's this cached article from Card on MormonTimes (cached because it was removed once it proved to be embarrassing) titled "The Science on Gays Falls Short." Here's an excerpt!



So, no, you're right. He has never expressly said "Matthew Sheppard deserved it" or "We should burn the gays at the stake." To portray him as someone simply pushing against a policy he disagrees with his disingenuous, however.

 

[Duelist]

I bet OP has never watched a movie with Tom Cruise or Charlie Sheen in it. You need to learn to separate the artist from the art when the art has no ideological influences from the artist. It's a shame you wouldn't like Platoon or Minority Report. People buying Shadow Complex are not giving money to the Mormon Church or NOW; the GayGamer article is exaggerated. This is one of the silliest hot topics I've seen in a while.

This. Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Coins]

If gay marriage is a allowed or not doesn't affect me in the slightest way.

Thats whats wrong with society today. There is no thought for anyone else but themselves. Fuck everyone else if it doesnt affect me!

 

[cr_blah_blah]

He did not force his way in to the project. Chair had to sign a piece of paper that involved him, they signed a paycheck to give to him. It was a strategic partnership and they knew Card's baggage when they agreed to it.

and the Eagles signed Michael Vick and knew about his baggage but that doesn't make them dog fighting supporters.

 

[SonOfABeep]

And obviously Card's personal beliefs weren't enough of a professional issue to matter. Should they not have hired him because of what his beliefs are outside of chipping in ideas for their game? Should they then have screened every programmer, artist, writer, and bookeeper at chair to make sure none of them are bigots either? Where does it end?

 

[Spike]

Me too! Id be so mad that my company decided to work with a worthless homophobe.

And this makes you better than OSC how?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

and the Eagles signed Michael Vick and knew about his baggage but that doesn't make them dog fighting supporters.

I don't expect to support the Eagles anytime soon, either.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

And obviously Card's personal beliefs weren't enough of a professional issue to matter. Should they not have hired him because of what his beliefs are outside of chipping in ideas for their game? Should they then have screened every programmer, artist, writer, and bookeeper at chair to make sure none of them are bigots either? Where does it end?

It's not just about his beliefs, but his actions. Keep up.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

And obviously Card's personal beliefs weren't enough of a professional issue to matter. Should they not have hired him because of what his beliefs are outside of chipping in ideas for their game? Should they then have screened every programmer, artist, writer, and bookeeper at chair to make sure none of them are bigots either? Where does it end?

Well, ideally it ends with me not buying their game.

They can make whatever they want, I don't care. But as a consumer, I don't care for who's involved and what they'd do with the money, so I'm not purchasing their product.

What lesson they take from that is up to them.

 

[ha1f]

Would you be as pissed as a gay person in California who had the legal right to marry then had it stripped from them the next day?

Absolutely. It sucks to have something you care about deeply (money, marriage) ripped away from you when you have no control over it.

Who cares about the collateral though, right? Eye for an eye, aye? Let's screw over the little guy who needs to pay his bills, while a homophobic bigot who is probably going to wipe his ass with the money he makes off of this game continues his crusade with the money he's already got stacked in his bank account.

Thats whats wrong with society today. There is no thought for anyone else but themselves. Fuck everyone else if it doesnt affect me!

see above.

 

[genjiZERO]

A two-male or two-female couple can't reproduce. The "science" there isn't that hard really.

I'm all for gay marriage, but trying to argue against that particular idea is ridiculous.

that may be true, but how does that make it a dysfunction? Some homosexuals do chose to reproduce. Are heterosexuals who fail to reproduce sexually dysfunctional? I think people are confusing "dysfunction" with the concept of biological fitness. But even there, it doesn't work because homosexuals are certainly capable of producing an F2 if they so try.

 

[SonOfABeep]

Thats whats wrong with society today. There is no thought for anyone else but themselves. Fuck everyone else if it doesnt affect me!

I really don't care is the thing. I can understand the struggle of those for it, and I can understand the arguments against it. But I don't feel that I have enough of a personal involvement to make a decision on the matter. Are agnostics then selfish also?

 

[Papa]

Please explain how homosexuality is "scientifically" a reproductive dysfunction? Also, anti-homosexuality is bigotry. Boycotting someone who is anti-homosexual is boycotting anti-bigotry. Boycotting someone who is homosexual is supporting bigotry. There's a word of difference between the two...

Well it's pretty simple really. A man + a man or a woman + a woman cannot produce a child.

There is a difference between equality and exaltation. I am all for homosexuals having human rights because, well, they are human. What I won't do, however, is exalt them to make up for years of neglect, as seems to be the way with our overly-PC society when a minority begins to gain mainstream acceptance.

Before you get your knickers twisted, please note that by "exalt", I mean making outrageous claims like "a man and another man can produce a baby", so as to not hurt someone's feelings. It must also be noted that I don't consider giving homosexuals the same basic freedoms as everyone else exaltation - I consider that equality.

When are realists going to get their turn? Right now they seem to be the most minor minority of all.

 

[cr_blah_blah]

I don't expect to support the Eagles anytime soon, either.

which is absolutely fine but for people to make the leap that partnerships means sharing the same views is extremely presumptuous