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Since When Has American Culture Become So Mediocre and Pathetic? What happened to ABBA, Bowie, The Beatles, PSY, BTS, and other great American bands?

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strange headache

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Things take years, sometimes decades, to be considered "classics", as EviLore EviLore explained earlier in the thread.

The Empire Strikes Back was trashed almost as badly in 1980 as The Last Jedi is today, but now everyone says it's the best Star Wars movie.

We've already gone over this. Star Wars was always part of popular culture, it was intended for mainstream audiences. Your video is also very selective as many critics loved it, Roger Ebert for example gave it glowing reviews:

In 1977, Roger reviewed "Star Wars," describing the four-star film as an out-of-body experience. He added, "The movie works so well for several reasons, and they don't all have to do with the spectacular special effects ... ["Star Wars"] relies on the strength of pure narrative, in the most basic storytelling form known to man, the Journey."

There's always a certain disconnect between professional critics and audiences, but the fact remains that Star Wars immediately struck a chord with regular movie goers. I still remember my father being quite blown away by it. Star Wars laid dormant for almost two decades, it would not have survived such a long hiatus without being recognized from the start.

40 years later everyone remembers The Empire Strikes back, but no one remembers other 80s sci-fi movies like Alien Dead, Galaxina, or Death Watch. If you look more modern to something like 1998 a movie like Armageddon or The Big Lebowski can be consider a "classic" now while stuff like Phantoms or Soldier (a BLADE RUNNER spin off) are more forgotten.

The fact that the original Star Wars spawned so many copy cats flies in the face of your assertion that Star Wars was trashed. People automatically recognized its cultural impact otherwise they would not have tried to recapture the same lightning in a bottle. Also many of those copy cats have become cult classics of their own, such as The Last Starfighter and Battlestar Galactica.

So many movies during that time laid the foundation for several genres, like Mad Max, Indiana Jones, Drity Harry, The Thing, Bond, Terminator, Space Odyssey, Shining, Steve McQueen and Bronson movies. Many of those had instant cultural appeal as they presented something new, something that the audiences had never seen. Nowadays these movies are few and far between, during the golden ages they were a lot more common.

I'm sorry but that argument is just way too simplistic. Most classics have struck a chord with people from the very beginning. Also you've failed to explain how new classics can be created when so much of today's cinema are remakes and sequels.
 
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ManaByte

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We've already gone over this. Star Wars was always part of popular culture, it was intended for mainstream audiences. Your video is also very selective as many critics loved it, Roger Ebert for example gave it glowing reviews:



There's always a certain disconnect between professional critics and audiences, but the fact remains that Star Wars immediately struck a chord with regular movie goers. I still remember my father being quite blown away by it. Star Wars laid dormant for almost two decades, it would not have survived such a long hiatus without being recognized from the start.



The fact that the original Star Wars spawned so many copy cats flies in the face of your assertion that Star Wars was trashed. People automatically recognized its cultural impact otherwise they would not have tried to recapture the same lightning in a bottle. Also many of those copy cats have become cult classics of their own, such as The Last Starfighter and Battlestar Galactica.

So many movies during that time laid the foundation for several genres, like Mad Max, Indiana Jones, Drity Harry, The Thing, Bond, Terminator, Space Odyssey, Shining, Steve McQueen and Bronson movies. Many of those had instant cultural appeal as they presented something new, something that the audiences had never seen. Nowadays these movies are few and far between, during the golden ages they were a lot more common.

I'm sorry but that argument is just way too simplistic. Most classics have struck a chord with people from the very beginning. Also you've failed to explain how new classics can be created when so much of today's cinema are remakes and sequels.
I never said Star Wars was trashed. Ever. You're making shit up now or didn't even read my post or watch the linked video.
 

strange headache

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I never said Star Wars was trashed. Ever. You're making shit up now or didn't even read my post or watch the linked video.

That's what you said:

The Empire Strikes Back was trashed almost as badly in 1980 as The Last Jedi is today.

That is just not true. The original movies were much better received by general audiences than the sequels. TLJ will never spawn any copy cats or lay the foundation for a whole genre of movies either.
(I also read your post and watched the frikkin' video)
 
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ManaByte

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That's what you said:

The Empire Strikes Back was trashed almost as badly in 1980 as The Last Jedi is today.

That is just not true. The original movies were much better received by general audiences than the sequels.
I said The Empire Strikes Back. The second movie released in 1980. I included a video that documents critic and fan reviews of the movie from 1980 where they were trashing it in the same way people trashed The Last Jedi. You replied with a quote from Roger Ebert's review of the first movie in 1977 and completely ignored what was said in the post about the 1980 movie.

Either you're being disingenuous on purpose or you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
 
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strange headache

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I said The Empire Strikes Back. The second movie released in 1980. I included a video that documents critic and fan reviews of the movie from 1980 where they were trashing it in the same way people trashed The Last Jedi. You replied with a quote from Roger Ebert's review of the first movie in 1977 and completely ignored what was said in the post about the 1980 movie.

Had you read the article that I posted you'd notice that Ebert gave that one a glowing review too:

For that film's sequel "The Empire Strikes Back," Roger reviewed the film for its special edition re-release, published on February 21, 1997. He gave the "best of the three 'Star Wars' films" four stars, citing that it's a "visual extravaganza" that creates in us "a sense of wonder."

The Empires Strike back was also well received, but sequels in general have a lesser impact which should be frikkin' obvious. To say the original trilogy was as badly received as the sequels is just f*cking ridiculous and absolutely untrue. Besides it doesn't really take away from the fact that the cultural significance of Star Wars was immediately recognized. So I really don't know where you are trying to go with this.

It is no wonder that sequels seldom become classics as they present nothing new. That was my point from the frikkin' beginning as you've yet not answered my question. How can Hollywood produce new classics if it is contempt with reheating old content by following long established movie formulas?
 
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ManaByte

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Had you read the article that I posted you'd notice that Ebert gave that one a glowing review too:



The Empire Strike back was also well received, but sequels in general have a lesser impact which should be frikkin' obvious. To say the original trilogy was as badly received as the sequels is just f*cking ridiculous and absolutely untrue. Besides it doesn't really take away from the fact that the cultural significance of Star Wars was immediately recognized. So I really don't know where you are trying to go with this.

It is no wonder that sequels seldom become classics as they present nothing new. That was my point from the frikkin' beginning as you've yet not answered my question. How can Hollywood produce new classics if it is contempt with reheating old content?

I see you're still ignoring the evidence presented in the video because it disputes your narrative.
 

strange headache

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I see you're still ignoring the evidence presented in the video because it disputes your narrative.

I see you're still evading my arguments.
Also "my narrative"? The false assertion that the original trilogy was as badly received as the newer movies is nothing but PR damage mitigation through historical revisionism. Audiences frikkin' loved those movies!
 
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strange headache

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No, it's reality. Pretending they were universally loved as a way to go on an anti-woke crusade against new movies is historical revisionism.

Do you really believe that crap? Wow! The OT was never as divisively received as the newer movies, never!
You're either too young to remember or you're just a media shill. Probably both.
 
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ManaByte

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You're either too young to remember or you're just a media shill.

Oh fuck right off with those shill comments. Your YouTube performance outrage videos have rotted your brain.

People didn't like how Empire had no ending in 1980, and Jedi wasn't liked because of the fucking Ewoks and how it was a puppet show. I was around for both and remember the Ewok hate very clearly (they were never even named in the movie, people know the name from the MERCHANDISE).

Hell:
 

strange headache

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Oh fuck right off with those shill comments. Your YouTube performance outrage videos have rotted your brain.

People didn't like how Empire had no ending in 1980, and Jedi wasn't liked because of the fucking Ewoks and how it was a puppet show. I was around for both and remember the Ewok hate very clearly (they were never even named in the movie, people know the name from the MERCHANDISE).

Hell:












You're full of crap! Go back to your twitter shilling.
 

Happosai

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I love music and I enjoy a vast range of it, so I don't think my criticism is of a particular style. I'm not like the ones railing against rock in the past because they found it offensive. There used to be an artistic talent behind music, that is severely lacking nowadays. You cannot tell me that auto-tune had a positive impact on the quality of music. Now people can make music without having the talent since their robotic voices are generated by computers. That's a whole different approach to making music than before.

Even lyrics have gone to waste as vocabulary and allegoric speech are dwindling fast. Like, compare this:


To this:


Notice the difference? Both are essentially about the same thing, but one does so with lyrical finesse, the other one just wants to be shrill. I'd rather be shown around your fruit-cage than having your WAP rubbed in my face.



Of course music is used to get you in a mood, but that's not what Scruton's observation is about.

Ever been to a pub before? Loud music is blaring so that people don't have to talk to each other anymore. People have become afraid of silence. Ever had that awkward feeling when you met somebody and just didn't have anything to say? Well it shouldn't feel awkward, but in our hyper-stimulating society lack of sensory stimulus is seen as a negative.

Gone are the time when you could hear the ticking of a clock in people's homes. TV and radio are constantly blaring in the background, because silence has become too insufferable.
If it wasn't already stated, Peter Gabriel is English. I've been a huge fan but it would have been worthwhile had you compared a classic American 80's pop song to get your point across. I've been lurking the thread and I've seen several Neil Young references come up. First, I'm a huge Neil Young fan and have seen him 3 times. Second, he's born in Winnipeg, Canada...which is North America but probe not the American (U.S.) you refer to in OP, and I'll end with the fact that Neil has always loved supporting new upcoming artists.
 

DeafTourette

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Here's one of his favorite ones:


I actually meant it sincerely. I want to know what he actually likes to see what his tastes are. Plus, I'd have more movie choices to look up.

Btw... I HIGHLY recommend the movie CODA on Apple+. Had me and my daughter crying (I'm deaf, she's a CODA aka child of deaf adults).
 
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Nobody_Important

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On an unrelated/somewhat related note... have you seen any good movies that you like lately, strange headache strange headache ?


The dog is Strange and the ball is his opinion. The first frame is him making the thread and asking people to talk to him about it. The hand is people disagreeing with him. The second and third are what happens when people who disagree with him try to talk to him.


NO DEBATE. ONLY AGREE. :messenger_angry:
 
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strange headache

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The dog is Strange and the ball is his opinion. The first frame is him making the thread and asking people to talk to him about it. The hand is people disagreeing with him. The second and third are what happens when people who disagree with him try to talk to him.


NO DEBATE. ONLY AGREE. :messenger_angry:

My god, you are such a little weasel with your gleeful backhanded malice. You're just here because you've got an ax to grind, not because you care about this subject.
Also why am I not surprised to see the usual shill brigade ganging up in this thread.

Again you're ignoring the actual 1980 reviews in the video in favor of aggregate sites that pull in 40 years of user comments and user reviews and continue with personal attacks because you have no counter argument.

Again, the original trilogy was never as harshly received by the general audience. A couple of outliers being dissatisfied with the inclusion of Ewoks and the ending of Episode V does not represent the general reception of these movies. At least I've provided factual evidence, you on the other hand came empty handed since you know very well that coming up with an aggregation of all the original reviews when these movies came out is just impossible.

Also you started with the personal attacks instead of engaging with this thread in a honest manner. I've seen your twitter account and your little website, it's mostly just glorified advertisement. I hope at least you get paid a couple of cents for your astroturfing otherwise it would just be sad.

If it wasn't already stated, Peter Gabriel is English. I've been a huge fan but it would have been worthwhile had you compared a classic American 80's pop song to get your point across. I've been lurking the thread and I've seen several Neil Young references come up. First, I'm a huge Neil Young fan and have seen him 3 times. Second, he's born in Winnipeg, Canada...which is North America but probe not the American (U.S.) you refer to in OP, and I'll end with the fact that Neil has always loved supporting new upcoming artists.

I'm aware that Peter Gabriel is British, but the point I was trying to get across was about lyrical regression also he's still part of the anglosphere so it's good enough for the sake of the argument. The same goes for Neil Young of course.

Bowie is British. Queen is British. The Beatles are British. Abba is Swedish. WTF are you even on about?!

Yes yes, we've gone over this. This is getting tiresome, read the thread please!
 
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Nobody_Important

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My god, you are such a little weasel with your gleeful backhanded malice. You're just here because you've got an ax to grind, not because you care about this subject.
Dude I tried discussing this topic with you and you repeatedly just threw a tantrum and ignored what I had to say. I clearly don't care about this topic as much as you do, but that doesn't mean I don't care. You are just brick wall of stubbornness that is immune to any opinion that is not your own. So much so that you have ignored actual historical fact when it was brought up by ManaByte ManaByte and you completely shrugged off the criticism that EviLore EviLore brought up in regards to the thread as well. You just don't like people disagreeing with you I guess. And I can't do anything against that. I can't discuss a topic with someone who doesn't want to talk.

As to the axe that you are referring to I have no idea what you mean so I will just leave that alone I guess.
 
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Lupingosei

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If it is only about art, short-term success is more important than long-term profit. Art is part of business and they have shareholders. Nobody wants to wait anymore until an artist, a movie franchise or something else is built up.

They rather throw a large amount of shit at a wall and hope something sticks. Everything else is hard work and we started to believe in instant gratification.

Also, you don't want stars anymore. Robert Downey Jr. getting that much money, they never want that again, same for rockstars or groups. Rather burn through some newcomers, it is way cheaper. Artists can never develop a profile like that.
 

Bill O'Rights

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Hi folks,


The people having personal feuds are advised to move on, as right now they are bubbling over. If not, then the options are that they will all be reply banned or the thread will be closed. Continue it via PM, or all of you take a step back, realise you have fundamental differences in what you believe and move on.


Thanks.
 

Clear

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Things take years, sometimes decades, to be considered "classics", as EviLore EviLore explained earlier in the thread.

The Empire Strikes Back was trashed almost as badly in 1980 as The Last Jedi is today, but now everyone says it's the best Star Wars movie.

40 years later everyone remembers The Empire Strikes back, but no one remembers other 80s sci-fi movies like Alien Dead, Galaxina, or Death Watch. If you look more modern to something like 1998 a movie like Armageddon or The Big Lebowski can be consider a "classic" now while stuff like Phantoms or Soldier (a BLADE RUNNER spin off) are more forgotten.

Like EviLore EviLore says, it takes time for the shit movies to be forgotten and the better movies to be considered classics.

The elephant in the room that's missed by this is that back in the 80's genre stuff was still, by and large, dismissed by the mainstream critical establishment as being unworthy of serious regard.

If you think the reviews of Empire are sniffy, check out the reception of other genre pieces around the same time. Recognized classics like Alien got short-shift, or were straight-up panned by the critics.

Genre enthusiasm was limited to a relative handful of publications, with the initial boom of interest that followed SW box-office and cultural triumph in 1977 having diminished greatly by the time the 80's arrived. Starlog, Starburst, and to a lesser degree Fantastic Films and Cinefantastique, were the only magazines with notable circulations. It was a very small world.

Its funny, I can't really imagine people who weren't around at the time being able to fully understand how different the pop-culture landscape was back then. Genre stuff didn't become mainstream overnight, what actually happened in my opinion was that it ramped up over time in a series of waves triggered by particular IP's becoming big popular successes.

A bit of a history lesson: SF was pretty much dead for most of the early 70's; you can count the number of major productions practically using the fingers on one hand and none of them were successes really. The only significant franchise was Planet Of The Apes, and that was more action/social commentary than hard futurism. It was not an optimistic period! We're talking about dystopian visions as shown in Soylent Green, Silent Running, Zardoz... hell, the "great white hope" of the pre-SW 70's was Logan's Run.

The big kahuna of that period were disaster movies, later succeeded by the eco-horror boom kicked off by Jaws in 1975. A short lived cycle where a big-hit is followed by copyists for a few years in the same manner that The Exorcist in '73 resulted in a slew of possession-themed horror movies.

Space Opera as popularized by Star Wars was on a very similar trajectory by the end of the decade, and I'm pretty sure the critics of the time had expected it to go the same way as the previous cycles. What happened instead though was a bunch of big breakthrough hits which although thematically quite dissimilar, all fell under the broad umbrella of "genre" strengthening everything culturally in the process. We get Alien in '79/'80. Raiders and Road Warrior in '81, E.T. in '82, a concurrent resurgence in horror started by Halloween in '78, codified by Friday the 13th in 1980...

By the mid-80's everything is kinda mixing and converging into bigger cultural wave which explains stuff like Ghostbusters and Back To The Future, and we're really off to the races. What was happening was very apparent to me because I was always into this stuff, and I got to watch as it transformed from being an "outsider" area of interest into a thing for everyone.

You could see this in how the specialist shops changed radically over the period. At the start of the 80's you could go into such places and find all kinds of oddities left over from the 70's, but a few years later this was all picked clean replaced by current product and increasing amounts of merch. You could literally see it changing in front of your eyes, week-by-week.

Anyway, sorry long rant, and I've left out the simultaneous rise of video gaming and comics in the 80's which were also massive contributors to the seismic shift that occurred. Point being, the critics of the day were not good at adapting to all this, hence the disdain and often incomprehension of their appeal.
 

bender

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Hi folks,


The people having personal feuds are advised to move on, as right now they are bubbling over. If not, then the options are that they will all be reply banned or the thread will be closed. Continue it via PM, or all of you take a step back, realise you have fundamental differences in what you believe and move on.


Thanks.

If only we could rally around the fact that Star Wars was, is and always will be mediocre, the world would be more harmonious.
 

TheInfamousKira

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I don't know what american culture is supposed to mean. Star wars also took a shit ton of inspiration from european folklore and japanese cinema

Yes, American "culture," as a whole is a mish-mash of people, ideas and inspirations the world over. That's why we're commonly referred to as "the melting pot," It goes beyond Star Wars (though I do agree). Rock and hip-hop both have stems leading back to Jazz and Blues, which were in a lot of ways inspired by the songs of slaves, i.e., people shipped to this country from another without a say in the matter. Going further, the very language we speak is an amalgamation of Germanic roots and words from other languages appropriated and incorporated into the common lexicon. Words like kamikaze, faux pas, deja vu, karate, etc are all foreign in origin, but as Americans, we've borrowed these words ad nauseum to the point where the average citizen thinks of them as "English," and understands their meaning without the prerequisite knowledge of French, Japanese et. al.

Current music trends are bouncing off of countries and back so fast it's difficult to tell who patented an idea first. Rock music alone has started to borrow elements of J-Pop and J-Rock with the dreamy cutesy lead vocalist in a macabre gothy metal outfit a la BABYMETAL in acts like Poppy, etc.

I can't speak for movies and television as much as I frankly don't see much of either, and gaming has always flown the banner of several different countries, so I really don't know what the real takeaway from this thread is, without attempting to reignite the flames of fury of the OP. We borrow so much inspiration from each other as a species in general, that I think the issue is you're not happy with the cultural output of the developed world in general. Because I promise you, it's not any better or worse anywhere else. I mean, if the main takeaway is that top forty rap is shit, I'll put that on a shirt, hell yeah, shit sucks.
 
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strange headache

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Stop liking what I don't like then I will be happy and everyone can be happy because I won't complain and bitch and moan cause I'm not getting my way.

Stop disliking what I like then I will be happy and everyone can be happy because I can't stand having my consumer habits criticized.

I don't know what american culture is supposed to mean. Star wars also took a shit ton of inspiration from european folklore and japanese cinema

Doesn't matter, people are hung up on nationalities rather than overlapping cultural spheres.

Yes, American "culture," as a whole is a mish-mash of people, ideas and inspirations the world over. That's why we're commonly referred to as "the melting pot," It goes beyond Star Wars (though I do agree).

I've referenced said melting pot in my OP which is why I find it absolutely hilarious that people are getting hung up on nationalities, as if the artists I've cited did not have a major influence on American culture. The whole point was that American society and lifestyle had such a strong appeal and provided a fertile ground for so many outside influences that such cultural icons could even be produced.

Rather than actually addressing my points, we have half a dozen pages of "bu... but Bowie was English".

The elephant in the room that's missed by this is that back in the 80's genre stuff was still, by and large, dismissed by the mainstream critical establishment as being unworthy of serious regard.

If you think the reviews of Empire are sniffy, check out the reception of other genre pieces around the same time. Recognized classics like Alien got short-shift, or were straight-up panned by the critics.

Genre enthusiasm was limited to a relative handful of publications, with the initial boom of interest that followed SW box-office and cultural triumph in 1977 having diminished greatly by the time the 80's arrived. Starlog, Starburst, and to a lesser degree Fantastic Films and Cinefantastique, were the only magazines with notable circulations. It was a very small world.

Its funny, I can't really imagine people who weren't around at the time being able to fully understand how different the pop-culture landscape was back then. Genre stuff didn't become mainstream overnight, what actually happened in my opinion was that it ramped up over time in a series of waves triggered by particular IP's becoming big popular successes.

A bit of a history lesson: SF was pretty much dead for most of the early 70's; you can count the number of major productions practically using the fingers on one hand and none of them were successes really. The only significant franchise was Planet Of The Apes, and that was more action/social commentary than hard futurism. It was not an optimistic period! We're talking about dystopian visions as shown in Soylent Green, Silent Running, Zardoz... hell, the "great white hope" of the pre-SW 70's was Logan's Run.

The big kahuna of that period were disaster movies, later succeeded by the eco-horror boom kicked off by Jaws in 1975. A short lived cycle where a big-hit is followed by copyists for a few years in the same manner that The Exorcist in '73 resulted in a slew of possession-themed horror movies.

Space Opera as popularized by Star Wars was on a very similar trajectory by the end of the decade, and I'm pretty sure the critics of the time had expected it to go the same way as the previous cycles. What happened instead though was a bunch of big breakthrough hits which although thematically quite dissimilar, all fell under the broad umbrella of "genre" strengthening everything culturally in the process. We get Alien in '79/'80. Raiders and Road Warrior in '81, E.T. in '82, a concurrent resurgence in horror started by Halloween in '78, codified by Friday the 13th in 1980...

By the mid-80's everything is kinda mixing and converging into bigger cultural wave which explains stuff like Ghostbusters and Back To The Future, and we're really off to the races. What was happening was very apparent to me because I was always into this stuff, and I got to watch as it transformed from being an "outsider" area of interest into a thing for everyone.

You could see this in how the specialist shops changed radically over the period. At the start of the 80's you could go into such places and find all kinds of oddities left over from the 70's, but a few years later this was all picked clean replaced by current product and increasing amounts of merch. You could literally see it changing in front of your eyes, week-by-week.

Anyway, sorry long rant, and I've left out the simultaneous rise of video gaming and comics in the 80's which were also massive contributors to the seismic shift that occurred. Point being, the critics of the day were not good at adapting to all this, hence the disdain and often incomprehension of their appeal.

That is true, critics are usually bad at recognizing cultural paradigm shifts since they are usually defenders of the status quo. Sci-Fi was pretty much dead and barren when Star Wars came out, but general audiences pretty quickly took a liking to its science fantasy formula. Which is the reason why movie studios started to quickly produce so many Star Wars clones. The same thing happened to Alien, with shameless ripoffs such as Deepstar Six and Leviathan.
 
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Stop disliking what I like then I will be happy and everyone can be happy because I can't stand having my consumer habits criticized.

An important American ideal is advancement. When that shows up culturally in media it's always going to upset some and please some.
The important point is that this advancement takes place. Personalities don't matter beyond their indulgence in the process. The process goes on, will happen, will always happen.

The adoption of American culture from movies, music etc is such a powerful concern that some authoritarian countries block it out with legislation. Others just trying to not be overwhelmed use legislation and funds to promote their own and keep the access to American culture open.

American advancement is so syncretic at a base level they can take stuff from over the world, or any new ideas, make it American in a new paradigm and have it appeal on a planetary scale as America product. The underlying idea of advancement is always present pushing the boundaries. Doesn't always succeed, but people are always wanting to make a buck and sometimes all it takes is a tweak or a different medium to successfully commercialize. Whether American advancement is for one's place in the world and indirectly culture advances, the result is still advancement.
 
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Eddie-Griffin

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PSY and BTS are the problem. Both proved the brain washing works and people will go see bands they can't understand if you do the right mind control techniques.
 
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Leyasu

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Just thank whatever god you believe in that the Unites States of Amoeba never exported their health care culture.

Pay or die fuck you!!

United States of Amoeba is a little private joke between my Californian ex and myself. No offence to my American cousins
 
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