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So, is Street Fighter V just a bad game across the board? (Gameplay talk)
- Thread starter sephi22
- Start date
I empathize with people who were disappointed in the way Capcom handled the entire release of SFV. Poor release schedule of content, an incredibly lacking tutorial compared to Xrd Revelator, and when compared to games like Revelator, it looks like a disrespectful, incomplete mess.
I really didn't want to like this game. But SFV is a fighter, and SFV's fighting is incredible. That, the net code and a ranking system that doesn't suck is what brought me back from the communities of other games. No other fighter imo allows you to read and adapt to your opponent as well as SFV. In the length of a round you can gauge what your opponent is trying to do, and make very real changes to take advantage. And your opponent then adjusts to you. The visual language of the game, the simplified rock-paper-scissors, and limited combo length make it a game that's easy to pick up but incredibly hard to master.
I really didn't want to like this game. But SFV is a fighter, and SFV's fighting is incredible. That, the net code and a ranking system that doesn't suck is what brought me back from the communities of other games. No other fighter imo allows you to read and adapt to your opponent as well as SFV. In the length of a round you can gauge what your opponent is trying to do, and make very real changes to take advantage. And your opponent then adjusts to you. The visual language of the game, the simplified rock-paper-scissors, and limited combo length make it a game that's easy to pick up but incredibly hard to master.
They're doing Ultra Street Fighter 2 and Street Fighter V is still alive and kicking so you may get your wish regardless.
This sounds great on paper and I really with the game was like this. But the lack of a real neutral game and overreliance on 50/50s doesn't make most of my games feel like this.
I'm not really adapting as much as I'm hoping that the next time I get knocked down or reset I choose right between jab/throw/crush counter.
Glitter and Gold
Banned
Even assuming that Mike Z's complaints were common(they weren't.) you're comparing initial reactions to reactions to year 2 changes. I told you how people in Xrd are reacting to the current patch as a more direct comparison and you're ignoring it for the sake of your argument working.
I get your point. I just don't think it's a good one. It's a shallow, casual way to dismiss the content of these complaints without engaging or addressing them. You're not even looking for context being equivalent.
That SFV lacks neutral and relies on 50/50s too much is true, and it's also my main complaint with the game, but that's only compared to other games in the Street Fighter series. It has stronger neutral and is less mix-up dependent than any other fighting game released this generation
until USF2 comes out
There's room for SFV to become more of a true Street Fighter game, that's for sure. They've probably hypercorrected SFIV's safety and made offense too strong, but what was said about SFV being very legible and easy to get in to is true.
That's a weird comparison to make, one is a lightly touched up rerelease of SF2 HD Remix, and the other (Alpha 4) would be a brand new game.
I didn't feel the need to respond to the stuff about Xrd's balancing because it was tangential to my point. That point being is that no fighting game avoids players complaining about the game and just because players complain doesn't automatically make the complaints valid. Often times players are completely wrong about their complaints. I gave examples of commonly held opinions about character tier placement regarding SFV season 1 that are now believed to have been unequivocally incorrect.
Unless game balance is an absolutely nightmare where one or two characters are in their own tier (like Kokonoe when she was first released in BlazBlue) then I'd argue a lot of complaining is more attributable to the game being popular then a character being obviously overpowered. SFV isn't like that at all.
But I'll go ahead and concede that point. Trying to compare two very different, well balanced games and declare which one is more balanced sounds like a pointless exercise. Plus, it weakens my overall argument that people don't automatically know if a game is unbalanced right away unless it's extremely unbalanced. SFV isn't a year old and S2 isn't even a month old. That's why it's nonsensical to just write off the balance update as a mistake.
Regardless, are you comparing SFV to an update that just got announced? Because if Capcom just posted that they were going to add new moves and new characters it would go over well regardless. We don't know anything about Rev 2's actual balancing so it could be a disaster (I imagine it'll be just fine, FYI). There's nothing to complain about here because we know so little. Plus, ASW fans have such low expectations regarding pricing that a balance update not requiring a whole new game to play is essentially a godsend compared to their old model (and I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely happy they're doing it this way).
So what am I supposed to do, go through each change people are complaining about and argue why it's actually good? My argument was that it's too early too know if the balance is good or bad or whatever. This literally happens after every fighting game balance update to some degree.
This thread's premise is that people claim SFV is a shitty game with great gameplay but, in actuality, it's a shitty game with shitty gameplay. And this premise was established because a pro player said he didn't like season 2's balancing. My argument has been that 1) claiming a game is now shitty because some people don't like the balancing update is silly 2) that even if that's the case it's too early to tell if the balancing is, in fact, bad and 3) the only reason there's a thread about this is because it's the one aspect people couldn't take down on SFV because gameplay = bad is a much more difficult argument to make than the netcode is terrible/the matchmaking is terrible/no arcade mode/DLC pricing is ridiculous/etc.
So perhaps I'm being dismissive of these complaints because I perceive people are looking to overreact to these complaints because it fits their implicit bias that SFV is an all-around dumpster fire of a game. And maybe I'm wrong and the thread is right and Season 2 will go down as a horrible balancing mistake. I've just been playing fighting games and discussing fighting games on the internet long enough to see this cycle repeat enough times that it seems like a waste to write off a rebalancing before it's been out one month in the wild.
How so? Alpha 3 wasn't brand new. Nor was Alpha 2 or Alpha 2 Gold. They were updates with new characters that built off the framework and assets of Alpha 1. The fact they made a small update to a 25 year old game has now opened the possibility that they'll do a small update to Alpha 3 Upper (or whatever version they left off on) one day and they're entitled to call it Alpha 4 if they so choose. If they were going to create a "brand new game" why would they call it Alpha 4?
Gameplay wise , it is decent but too limited. Characters like Akuma and Ibuki that was suppose to be complex with options for everything has been handicapped. Ibuki literally lost more than half her movesets, might as well make her into new character. Akuma trademark jumpback fireball is now gone and only works in V-Trigger.They took away tools of what make them who they are and now they are a shell of their former self.
V-skills is a hit and miss for some characters. Good V-skills are suppose to be integrated and enhance their playstyle like Guile projectile and Laura 2 way dash with a overhead. While Alex and Urien is just a taunt power-up which is just lazy. They could of done something more unique with them and leave their taunts as the powerup. Some V-skill doesnt even mesh well with their playstyle like Ibuki. She just push them back when she hit them and has to chase them more.
V-skills is a hit and miss for some characters. Good V-skills are suppose to be integrated and enhance their playstyle like Guile projectile and Laura 2 way dash with a overhead. While Alex and Urien is just a taunt power-up which is just lazy. They could of done something more unique with them and leave their taunts as the powerup. Some V-skill doesnt even mesh well with their playstyle like Ibuki. She just push them back when she hit them and has to chase them more.
You're being incredibly dramatic, most posts that are critical in the thread (at least that I've read) suggest that the gameplay isn't bad, but it isn't "Free Pass 5/5 Best In The Series Because That's What We Agreed Upon At Launch" great, either.
You seem to still be fervent in your unwavering adoration of the game and product, and that's great. Happy you're happy. It is quite ironic to see somebody complain about people overreacting and resorting to hyperbole just because it's SFV... when they post stinkers like saying KoF XIV character models are PS2 quality and resort to false equivalencies... in a thread about SFV.
For the record, I think it's a shitty game with solid/okay gameplay.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
They haven't so far.
Stallion Dan
Member
I hate the shitty psuedo f2p model it uses and the insane DLC prices because of it. Costumes cannot even be earned free but cost insane prices.
Content is shit also.
Matchmaking, online connections and ranking system all suck.
Starting roster is poor size by today's standards.
Only good thing is the gameplay.
Content is shit also.
Matchmaking, online connections and ranking system all suck.
Starting roster is poor size by today's standards.
Only good thing is the gameplay.
Glitter and Gold
Banned
We got a balance patch post Evo which is what i'm referring to. The "Dizzy" patch.
I don't know man. I think the Infiltration video is worth discussing. That's why I'm here.
If the frequency of these threads has gotten you so jaded that you can't even entertain the content of critical arguments for this game, perhaps you just shouldn't participate in them.
Interficium
Banned
Well, Gaf hated Capcom's practice of doing "super" and "ultra" releases as well, so what's your suggestion.
Keep in mind "make it all free" isn't an option.
DoubleTake
Member
Also holy shit this. V skills are a great a idea but on the whole implemented very lackluster.
Glitter and Gold
Banned
I didn't! I vastly prefer that model to what we have with V.
I don't have unwavering adoration of the game. I just think it's absolutely ridiculous the level of criticism this game receives on gaming side (or in OTs for other 2D fighting games, which you should know personally) and I refuse to buy "people are complaining about this therefore the complaints are automatically legitimate."
SFV has a lot of issues. It did at launch and it still does. I've never denied that and, for the most part, the argument has been settled on SFV having problems in areas of matchmaking/netcode/servers/single player content/etc. So it certainly feels like people realize that since these arguments have been settled the only real area left to criticize SFV is the gameplay, thus we have this thread.
Is SFV's gameplay exempt from criticism? Definitely not. But it doesn't mean people's bad arguments are going to go unchallenged. My first post in this thread was replying to a bunch of "flaws" in SFV's gameplay that were treated as objectively factual.
I don't think it's ironic that I bring up other games in a thread complaining about SFV since I used them to make a point. Like I referenced earlier, it's silly how often you'll see people talk shit about SFV in OTs for other 2D fighters like the FGC is their unrequited love and they just can't see how they could fall for such a shitty game like SFV that doesn't understand them or treat them well. But whatever, mention that and you're a part of the SFV defense force.
And for clarification, I don't think SFV is the best in the series. I think it's definitely better than 4, which I had a lot of issues with, and I enjoy the game specifically because it was made in reaction to a lot of complaints people had with 4. Who knows, maybe by 2020 I'll be sick of V and I'll be looking for SF6 to solve whatever problems this game has.
Also, I don't even believe SFV is the best fighting game released this generation. That goes to Guilty Gear Xrd Revelator despite my issues with it's matchmaking and netcode (which I certainly think is worse than SFV's). I enjoy and play SFV more but I do believe, overall, Revelator's package is much better.
I think the model is vastly superior but the execution is garbage. If the prices on dropped by a dollar or two it would be much more palatable. If I could have just bought Dudley in SF4 and got every balance update for free, I would have been happier.
Stallion Dan
Member
Ditch the fightmoney system. Everything new costs real money, just much cheaper, like in SFIV series. Unlike SFIV series, new characters are added to same player pool, just if you don't buy them you can't play as them (which they already doing).
SSFIV 4 AE new characters was £12, USFIV 5 characters was £12, so SFV 6 character season pass being £25 is bullshit. The SSFIV disc with 10 new characters cost £25.
5 piece costume pack in SFIV series (£3.29) is same price as single costume in SFV, is rip off. SFxT single costume was 79p.
People who wanna pay for stuff in SFV are paying more to offset cost of the 'free' players, even on items you cannot get free.
That should not happen in a full priced product.
Glitter and Gold
Banned
Ding ding ding.
Also imagine coming into SFV at year 3 or after. Someone getting into the game during Ultra just had to pick up a 40 dollar disk(MSRP, probably cheaper post launch) and be instantly caught up on everything outside of current version DLC.
While in SFV this time next year, you may pick up the 20 dollar disk, but you boot it up to see that OVER HALF THE ROSTER is locked DLC. Catching up will cost you no less than 50 dollars on top of the base game if they continue the current season pass trend. and that's just characters. Stages and Costumes are even more.
I just don't understand why some people want this business model to spread to other Fighting Games. I mean I guess it works in your favor if SFV is your main fighting game and you've been playing since Launch and don't care about having a full roster or all the stages. But it just seems so bad for everyone else.
Interficium
Banned
Here's the thing with "pros" in every game: When they're arguing for changes that "will make the game better," 90% of the time what they're really asking for is for things that will make them better at the game. Infiltration makes his livelihood off Street Fighter, and you better believe that fact colors every statement he makes about the game, it's impossible for it not to. Of course, he can't just come out and say changes should be made because they'll directly benefit me, people would call him out, rightly, for being selfish and self-interested.
So instead he like every pro gamer (or other "name" like big streamers, commentators, etc) dresses it up in populist message: "What's good for Infiltration is good for the community." Sometimes that in fact is the case but it's just as frequently not the case.
Good example of this is well-known pro Destiny PvP players spending months convincing reddit and twitter that "skill-based matchmaking" ie: matching great PVP players up with other great PVP players, is cancer to the community and telling Joe Average that they will be great at PvP once they don't have to "sweat" every match and they don't have to put up with laggy connections. In reality what happened when skill-based matchmaking was relaxed was that those pro PvP players started getting matched with Joe Average and proceed to shit on him/her for free, making them look better for their twitch audiences.
Well, we agree there. I give Capcom a lot of credit for having it feel very unlike SF4, which I thought, think and forever will believe was an abomination. I also appreciate their direction w/ new characters. I'm hoping Infiltration picks up Rashid and that the S2 roster all kick ass because it's pretty bold of Capcom to go that route. I also think the netcode complaints are overblown (not the server issues though).
As for people complaining about SFV in threads for other games, that's all on Capcom, man. Not saying it's good or makes for good discussion, but they shit the bed and the ill will the game's launch window created will probably last throughout SFV's life cycle. They made a product that people really hate. I don't hate it, but if I stripped away my lifelong Street Fighter fanboyism then maybe I would. Then again, maybe my disappointment with it is from that same lifelong love of the series. Except for SF4, I hate that game with my every fiber.
That could very well happen but people were able to get SFV + S1 + S2 for a little under $50 on Steam for several weeks this year. I don't see the Seasons for SFV remaining $30 much like Killer Instinct's Seasons becoming cheaper over time (and often free if you have Gold). Who knows, though, this is all new for Capcom so things may not change at all.
I believe being able to earn the characters for free is a good thing and that should be maintained. I agree that the increased prices for things like costumes is a direct result of Capcom trying to make up for lost sales from free players. I don't think we need to throw the baby out with the bath water. Just because Capcom isn't doing this business model correctly doesn't mean it's impossible.
I mostly want to post to say that I agree with what your saying.
As someone that appreciates fighting games, but only plays Melee at this point I do think the gameplay in SFV is solid. They've made some questionable decisions that I think cater too severely to casuals, but overall it's solid. Especially when compared to NRS games.
I mostly just wish the FGC would care more about KoF and Tekken.
Interficium
Banned
So you don't hate the model, you just want it to be cheaper.
I went from thinking it just might be the best Street Fighter game to being one of my least favorites. The game feels dry and devoid of any soul and to me that's important. It's beyond just the dry gameplay that makes the game as a whole bad. It's not fun to me, the game lacks any kind of innovation, it just feels like another Street Fighter game and that's bad in my opinion.
Honestly the game looked a lot cooler and better during it's initial reveal days.
What happened to this game?
Honestly the game looked a lot cooler and better during it's initial reveal days.
What happened to this game?
I went from thinking it just might be the best Street Fighter game to being one of my least favorites. The game feels dry and devoid of any soul and to me that's important. It's beyond just the dry gameplay that makes the game as a whole bad. It's not fun to me, the game lacks any kind of innovation, it just feels like another Street Fighter game and that's bad in my opinion.
Honestly the game looked a lot cooler and better during it's initial reveal days.
What happened to this game?
Well, you can still do that but you end with Air Lightning Legs instead of whatever that move was.
Interficium
Banned
Do you mean like, that one Chun-Li move that isn't in the game, or the completely flat WIP lighting on the characters?
Glitter and Gold
Banned
Difference is I think KI was good from the start. IIRC it was F2P with a full season costing 19.99. It had a system in place where when you spend that 19.99 within a season on characters individually, it unlocked the pass for that season. So there's no value pitfalls for uninformed consumers. You can't ever accidentally spend more on content than it's worth.
By the end of 3 seasons at 19.99 per season, you basically have the cost of a full price game with 25 characters. But KI added value on top of that by giving bonuses within those complete packs with back catalogue costumes and other things of value within their ecosystem for the player's 60 dollars. You could just get all the characters in all 3 seasons for 40
SFV on the other hand....charges 60 for its base still on digital store fronts....with 50 dollars worth of season passes on top of it. There's a Deluxe all included pack....but it's 80 dollars.... and it's just a combo of the base game and two passes. No added value like KI
So not only is it more expensive to catch up at year 2 than KI was at year 3, but unlike KI which is designed so that there's no bad ways to spend money on their game....SFV is full of value pitfalls. I mean anyone just buying the base game digitally today is wasting an incredible amount of money and might not even be aware of it.
It's just not a good system in any aspect imo and it bums me out when people think more games should be like it.
Stallion Dan
Member
Can't go cheaper while offering stuff free, that lost money needs be made up somewhere.
So ditch the f2p model.
Obviously the game didn't look as good as it does now. I just meant that the game looked like it had more impact and flashier combos and looked like a lot more fun than the simple handful of bread 'n butter combos you have with characters now. There's not many ways to express yourself with a character in the game. The game basically forces you to use a character a certain way unless you like losing all the time.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
I don't think the gameplay is any better than sf 2, alpha, 3,or 4. Great gameplay is honestly expected at bare minimum from any street fighter game.
Feels like another Street Fighter game and that's bad in my opinion.
Honestly the game looked a lot cooler and better during it's initial reveal days.
What happened to this game?
This is just my theory but I think what happened is that they have to rush out content to meet the rushed release date. If they made every character fully unique with playstyle like that, it would take so much thought, creativity, effort and time to make each character feel fully developed. If you notice, Ryu, Chun and the earlier characters felt more polish and complete than most of the DLC characters. So gameplay kinda suffer because of their greed.
You mean the build Infiltration lamed out Daigo by throwing fire balls the whole time?
I love Infiltration, but this is sad. You can't be all "Download Complete" and 'I main the whole cast' and then throw a temper tantrum (legit breaking toys haha) over nerfs.
I didn't notice that, also this build is much, much different from even the beta builds. So that's irrelevant
SneakersSO
Member
Easily my favorite gameplay in a fighting game, & personally my favorite in the series. Complaints are overblown, and the pro community gets salty about everything. I will agree only on one thing regarding season 2 - FANG & Alex needed to be buffed, not nerfed. Juri should also get a fully loaded arsenal at match start.
Doctrine Dark
Member
I really enjoy Street Fighter V. While I enjoyed SF4 much more, I don't think the game is bad by any means.
Daffy Duck
Member
Does this have a versus arcade mode yet?
And as a non pro fighter and someone else who will just play me and my kids will my girlfriend find this enjoyable?
She keeps asking me to buy it but I'm not sure, she would be classed as super casual.
And as a non pro fighter and someone else who will just play me and my kids will my girlfriend find this enjoyable?
She keeps asking me to buy it but I'm not sure, she would be classed as super casual.
Brian_FETO
Banned
It has had "versus" since launch
What it lacks is the traditional 1 player vs. CPU arcade mode
If she can do hadoukens and shoryukens then this game is probably the easiest fighting game to pick up and play that isn't smash bros, imo. The characters are fun to play even without special moves. KI is also really great as well. It has a good tutorial that teaches how to play it and it is a great value with a lot of single player content.
No arcade mode yet, but it was apparently datamined and may be coming sometime soon.
Daffy Duck
Member
Ahhh that's the mode I meant, she likes that in tekken 2.
Ok,I think for £17 it might be worth a punt, I'm sure we can all have some fun fighting each other.
Really? Xrd or Revelator or whatever it's called now is a niche title in a very niche genre and the only way it receives any praise is by hardcores who actually dedicate thier time and energy into the game. Not casuals. So basically, because it's not mainstream the game has far less of a target on it's head. Not sure about it being the second biggest in FGC - that's probably smash. SFV has its issues for sure but S2, it's gameplay and presentation are not some of them.
lol what are you talking about. Just recently on Steam, the base game of SFV and both S1 and S2 were included for around $40. That's a very good price. I imagine a bundle like that will happen in year 3 too. People want this model because they want to HAVE the option to pay for characters they want and get character and feature balance updates for free. Simple. It's one of the reasons why I didn't get Revelator because I just bought Xrd a few weeks before it was announced - I'm not spending more money just to play a game which should include these updates for free.
Doctrine Dark
Member
Is it even possible to erase the overall negativity towards V? It seems like...no matter how solid the battle system is, the hatred will never dissipate because of the launch of this game. I wonder if the Arcade release will improved the scene in Japan.
Not possible, personally I enjoy it a lot and have been holding weekly tournaments with australian players online.
Also cross play is so good.
Cross play is such a godsend. This honestly puts SFV and KI on a special place for me, not having a fragmented player base. Look at MKX, with its strongly diminished online presence it would really benefit from cross play.
Eventually people who dislike SFV will find something newer to hate on and those of us who like it will continue playing it. Later, when SFVI is released, everybody will talk about how great SFV was, and then the overall negativity will finally be erased.
Glitter and Gold
Banned
Bro it was a Steam Sale
Regular price it's 60 base 80 package. That's the deal on both platforms for most of the year.