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[travisbickle]

For those that stated they don't like it because it's not capable of 360/PS3 level graphics...you are what has driven the gaming industry to absolute shit.

WTH!

The games industry is getting where it needs to go. Until Nintendo come along and tell it to take a step back and concentrate on a peripheral.

I remember back in the 90s when developers used to dream of creating a "real world" for the player to explore, characters that acted like real people, environments that acted like the real world, a game where you can do anything you want to do in a "realistic" setting(by this I don't mean photo-realistic but consoles with enough power to visualize what the developer wants to portray: GOW, R:FOM, Oblivion for examples)

The Wii is fun, but as a gamer for the last 15+ years, the advanced power of the 360 and PS3 is definitely moving gaming in the direction it needs, it's like films, I can watch the original Jason and the argonauts but I'm sure Lord of the Rings has done a lot more to allow viewers to realise the World the director wanted to show.

 

[Magicpaint]

What do I have to be constructive about? Everyone knows Wii is just a Gamecube in a smaller package, I'm just more negative about it.

Yet somehow you criticise TP for not taking advantage of the Wii extra horsepower? Why would it if it's "Gamecube in a smaller package" as you soundly put it?

Oh and let's throw away the controller too. Couldn't have cost Nintendo anything for the R&D.

 

[Amir0x]

Yet somehow you criticise TP for not taking advantage of the Wii extra horsepower? Why would it if it's "Gamecube in a smaller package" as you soundly put it?

Oh and let's throw away the controller too.

It's easier to say "Gamecube" then it is to say "Gamecube Turbo", but the intent is the same.

We know Wii can do Mario Galaxy, which IS somewhat of an improvement over Gamecube games - at least, Gamecube with better lighting. And so, Twilight Princess doing nothing over Gamecube cannot thusly be complimented, putting aside artistic direction yadda yadda.

Of course, I'd criticize it either way... I'm not writing for EGM, so i don't have to pretend to care that something is limited by the hardware since there are viable alternatives that actually give me amazing visual experiences.

The controller has its own problems, probably too many to count but like I said I'm not gonna make a final judgment based on the shitty launch titles. It's a launch, EVERY launch is shitty. I've already said my piece on it, so I just wait until the games I purchased the system for come out. However, I don't need to wait to criticize the things that 100% won't change - like the power and audio capabilities.

 

[Magicpaint]

I just think you're very selective with your choice of words for the sole purpose of being negative towards the console all the time.

 

[antiloop]

I like Zelda.

 

[Amir0x]

I just think you're very selective with your choice of words for the sole purpose of being negative towards the console all the time.

How can I be selective with the truth in this case? If it wasn't so, there would be no negativity.

 

[Fallout-NL]

I just think you're very selective with your choice of words for the sole purpose of being negative towards the console all the time.

Just, you know, hypothetically. What if it wasnt such a fantastic console. Would you consider it unfair to be slightly negative towards it?

 

[Ninja Dom]

The Wii is fun, but as a gamer for the last 15+ years, the advanced power of the 360 and PS3 is definitely moving gaming in the direction it needs, it's like films, I can watch the original Jason and the argonauts but I'm sure Lord of the Rings has done a lot more to allow viewers to realise the World the director wanted to show.

Almost but not quite... I'd much rather watch old-school Tom & Jerry and Loony Tunes cartoons, to the new CG fims/movies that are flooding the market right now.

 

[Magicpaint]

How can I be selective with the truth in this case? If it wasn't so, there would be no negativity.

In this case. Your remark about Wii being just a Gamecube in a smaller package isn't truth.

Just, you know, hypothetically. What if it wasnt such a fantastic console. Would you consider it unfair to be slightly negative towards it?

Eh...what?

 

[Jcgamer60]

I love reading these threads

 

[Model 500]

What do I have to be constructive about? Everyone knows Wii is just a Gamecube in a smaller package, I'm just more negative about it.

Well, the guy you replied to clearly had no idea of the potential use of the Wii and it's control system, that's why. In that context Wii is a lot more than _just_ a GameCube, and you know it. For some reason you wanted to concentrate on some trivial (regarding the context) things instead.

 

[Mar]

 

[Amir0x]

In this case. Your remark about Wii being just a Gamecube in a smaller package isn't truth.

Like I said, it wouldn't have mattered if I said Gamecube or Gamecube Turbo - the intent is precisely the same, and I would have had the same people boo-hooing it. Call me when the mystical extra power beyong "GCN Turbo" unlocks though.

Well, the guy you replied to clearly had no idea of the potential use of the Wii and it's control system, that's why. In that context Wii is a lot more than _just_ a GameCube, and you know it. For some reason you wanted to concentrate on some trivial (regarding the context) things instead.

In the context, it's NOT trivial. At all. Maybe for you, but not for me. It is in fact one of the most important things of all.

I'm not going to try to argue about these hypothetical 'potential uses' of Wiimote... that's why I said, i'll wait until the system gets past its shitty launch period and has the games I purchased the unit for. Therefore, I will criticize the things that already undeniably suck - such as, once more, its audio and graphical capabilities. Being that this is a huge massive negative, and I'm paying $250 for that, it's kind of hard NOT to comment on something so core to gaming.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[Pureauthor]

Your avatar fits as well, Martoo.

I have to say I'm not entirely sold on the concept of the Wiimote (please note I do not own one, nor have I tried it). While the majority of impressions have been positive, there have been valid issues brought up.

I'm holding off final judgement until I actually have a Wii and can play one, but until them, I'm cautiously optimistic.

 

[DefectiveReject]

People bitching over a consoles graphics power, when the system isn't sold for its graphics power require a slap.
We all know the system isn’t a 360 or PS3 and it isn’t sold as such. And for you to argue this, well it’s downright stupid
You paid $250 for it, and it's not subsidised in anyway, therefore you get what you pay for.

 

[Amir0x]

People bitching over a consoles graphics power, when the system isn't sold for its graphics power require a slap.
We all know the system isn’t a 360 or PS3 and it isn’t sold as such. And for you to argue this, well it’s downright stupid
You paid $250 for it, and it's not subsidised in anyway, therefore you get what you pay for.

It doesn't matter what it's sold for, it's part of gaming. An important part. Any system or device that claims to be a part of gaming and DOESN'T compete in the same vicinity of its viable competitors deserves to be criticized, whether it's priced at $900 or $200. That said, you're absolutely right - you DO get what you pay for. To that, there is no doubt.

 

[Model 500]

In the context, it's NOT trivial. At all. Maybe for you, but not for me. It is in fact one of the most important things of all.

The guy was puzzled by the different control uses of the Wii, in that context I think it's pretty trivial to say that the HW is "just a GameCube", but yeah, suit yourself, you know where you stand.

 

[JDSN]

I hate the Wii. Yeah, ok, maybe it's fun for a once-in-a-while arcade experience, but I can't see them basing an entire console's lifetime on the idea.

I think I'll go try it out tomorrow.

God, I love these kind of threads. :lol

 

[Insane Metal]

I don´t like it.

 

[travisbickle]

Almost but not quite... I'd much rather watch old-school Tom & Jerry and Loony Tunes cartoons, to the new CG fims/movies that are flooding the market right now.

you can sum it up in many ways. The new CGI movies are what the public want, and are what is expanding the market, they get a lot of money invested in them and famous faces wanting to be involved. The old cartoons aren't, they are held up for nostalgia reasons but noone really wants to put any effort into making one, but they'll talk avidly about them and we see the same ones repeated over and over again.

Is any of this getting through to you?

 

[DefectiveReject]

It doesn't matter what it's sold for, it's part of gaming. An important part. Any system or device that claims to be a part of gaming and DOESN'T compete in the same vicinity of its viable competitors deserves to be criticized, whether it's priced at $900 or $200. That said, you're absolutely right - you DO get what you pay for. To that, there is no doubt.

I’m sorry amir0x, I believe even Reggie has stated, if you want impressive HD quality graphics, buy something else.
The graphics on Wii are gonna be as good as you can get for an SD console by the time the second generation of games hit.

You’re buying a Wii for its new input method, its not in any way shape or form being sold as anything else (Graphics or Audio capabilities) and to argue otherwise, regardless of anything you may say is wrong.

Any system or device that claims to be a part of gaming and DOESN'T compete in the same vicinity of its viable competitors deserves to be criticized, whether it's priced at $900 or $200.

This bit especially made me laugh....... so a DS game should always lose out to a PSP game because you get nice graphics and good sound on a PSP.

Do please prove me wrong, but isn't this GAMING?
So shouldn't we quite honestly compare games Mainly on their gaming provisions with any kind of graphical and audio capabilities being a back issue?
Look what graphics have done for the 360? maybe one real killer title in a year. Yeah i'll take a developer putting effort into the way a game plays over the way it looks anyday.

Zelda:TP alone proves that if the game is good enough from pure gameplay and DESIGN alone, then that game is gonna rock your socks regardless of a few crappy textures.

 

[Jake.]

Amir0x - i don't understand if every launch is shitty why you would buy any console on day 1 then? why didn't you just wait 6 months and buy a wii then?

 

[Amir0x]

The guy was puzzled by the different control uses of the Wii, in that context I think it's pretty trivial to say that the HW is "just a GameCube", but yeah, suit yourself, you know where you stand.

he was confused as to what was wrong with packaged peripherals, and I listed one of the primary reasons. One allows you to make substantially more money.

I’m sorry amir0x, I believe even Reggie has stated, if you want impressive HD quality graphics, buy something else.

The graphics on Wii are gonna be as good as you can get for an SD console by the time the second generation of games hit.

You’re buying a Wii for its new input method, its not in any way shape or form being sold as anything else (Graphics or Audio capabilities) and to argue otherwise, regardless of anything you may say is wrong.

Why would I care what Reggie says? I know the graphics on Wii are what you pay for, even though I can pay $150 less and still get the same approximate visual experience.

My point is that since there are viable alternatives that DON'T give me shitty graphics, and a system that gives me equal graphics and audio capabilities for $150 less, it IS a huge negative.

If it's not for you... that's cool too?

This bit especially made me laugh....... so a DS game should always lose out to a PSP game because you get nice graphics and good sound on a PSP.

Always? No. Because there still can be quality gameplay. But here's the problem...

Do please prove me wrong, but isn't this GAMING?
So shouldn't we quite honestly compare games Mainly on their gaming provisions with any kind of graphical and audio capabilities being a back issue?

...Graphics and audio are A PART of gaming. Denying it is basically just bullshit Nintendo propaganda,and that's the long and short of it. When people say this, it doesn't mean "OH HE MUST NOT CARE ABOUT GAMEPLAY." Of course I do. But graphics and audio contribute to quality GAMING experiences, and to a significant degree, and when you have people doing it substantially better then it comes down to lowering ones standards since there are viable alternatives to give one "fun."

That's the ultimate goal, no? Fun? Well, if you feel you don't need a punch graphically to get your fun, if it has no sort of pull with you, then obviously we're never gonna agree. I do think it contributes to the fun, and so I don't make excuses for it.

 

[6.8]

I hate the fact that despite all my attempts to give money to Nintendo to get one, they still won't give one to me.

 

[Hero]

EAD made the Zelda Gamecube to Wii port in what, a year or so? It's not a perfect job, but it's a pretty damn fine first impression.

Give them another year or so to tack on to the experience they got from Twilight Princess and I have no worries at all about them implementing the remote for future games.

The real question I want to know the answer to is if developers are going to bother trying to come up with something new or just continue to milk their franchises until they bleed every penny dry from the market.

Right now the Wii is just the system for me to get my Zelda fix on, everything else is gravy. I can realize that Wii Sports is pretty much a demo compilation. I'll be damned if Nintendo doesn't have teams working on full-fledged versions of most of these titles. Hopefully they'll help Camelot with Mario Tennis and Mario Golf.

It'll be fun to visit this thread a year from now. Who knows what'll happen.

 

[Screenboy]

please rename this thread 'The Official Wii Troll Thread - Troll Here Or Nowhere!'

 

[DefectiveReject]

It'll be fun to visit this thread a year from now. Who knows what'll happen.

I'm betting exactly what happened with the DS after its first year

the masses don't like gaming as it is, hence why only 140m or so consoles get sold to potentially 6bn people.

In the UK a developer would give anything to have their games sell to the same levels as Books, DVD's CD's cinema seats etc. That hasn't happened yet, and Nintendo are trying to see if this will help change things
Might fail, might not/

 

[APerfectCircle]

The games industry is getting where it needs to go. Until Nintendo come along and tell it to take a step back and concentrate on a peripheral.

I remember back in the 90s when developers used to dream of creating a "real world" for the player to explore, characters that acted like real people, environments that acted like the real world, a game where you can do anything you want to do in a "realistic" setting(by this I don't mean photo-realistic but consoles with enough power to visualize what the developer wants to portray: GOW, R:FOM, Oblivion for examples)

The Wii is fun, but as a gamer for the last 15+ years, the advanced power of the 360 and PS3 is definitely moving gaming in the direction it needs, it's like films, I can watch the original Jason and the argonauts but I'm sure Lord of the Rings has done a lot more to allow viewers to realise the World the director wanted to show.

i remember back in the 90's when games used to be simple and fun aswell. maybe it's my dislike of FPS, but i had pretty much given up on any form on console gaming until i heard about the Wii. I don't want to play the same game with better graphics, and i don't want to pay insane amounts of money to buy a console. i'm hoping that the Wii will have a decent price cut sometime next year and i'll likely jump aboard. Maybe i'm a one off, maybe theres lots of people like me, i guess this'll determine if its a success or not sales wise.

 

[Polari]

The power argument is interesting. I'm disappointed they went as low as they did, but at the same time I'm pleased that they've reshuffled the prioritising of performance first, cost second and form factor third. They're three factors I think should be on a more even footing. It's also an interesting strategy in terms of how many games we're going to see on Wii as opposed to Xbox 360 and PS3. I mean, if a game is going to sell the same on all systems but your development costs are lower on Wii, that's the platform it makes sense to develop for. At the same time though it seems that this isn't going to mean a shift of focus from graphics to gameplay, but rather the Wii used as an excuse for sloppy work.

 

[Amir0x]

I'm betting exactly what happened with the DS after its first year

the masses don't like gaming as it is, hence why only 140m or so consoles get sold to potentially 6bn people.

In the UK a developer would give anything to have their games sell to the same levels as Books, DVD's CD's cinema seats etc. That hasn't happened yet, and Nintendo are trying to see if this will help change things
Might fail, might not/

So just for the record... if DS and Wii both don't sell MORE than 140,000,000, can we deem it a failure? I'm not reading too much into this here, am I? Because that's what it sounds like, it sounds like the way to gauge success to 'mainstream' is if it sells EVEN MORE than that.

If not, then, it's all pretty much high talk no?

Amir0x - i don't understand if every launch is shitty why you would buy any console on day 1 then? why didn't you just wait 6 months and buy a wii then?

Well, I originally pre-ordered Wii because I thought metroid prime III was gonna be there at launch. So I had set aside money, and pre-ordered. Once it was announced that it WASN'T gonna be there, I made the decision that since it won't be too long before it comes to Wii I might as well make the dive early.

 

[jko]

it's loads of fun! especially during parties and get togethers....something that the PS3 sorely lacks.

 

[swerve]

WTH!

The games industry is getting where it needs to go. Until Nintendo come along and tell it to take a step back and concentrate on a peripheral.

The Wii is fun, but as a gamer for the last 15+ years, the advanced power of the 360 and PS3 is definitely moving gaming in the direction it needs

Yeah, if 'where it needs to go' is to exactly the same people who, like you and I, have been gamers for fifteen+ years.

Say someone had the revolutionary idea that the idea of 'games' was big enough and wide enough to encompass people who like hi-tech, super beautiful, 'realistic' worlds AS WELL AS people who like made in wario, ddr, new super mario brothers, ouendan/eba, jungle beat, castlevania, trauma center... I don't just mean consumers, I mean developers too. Some developers like to make Gears of War, Zelda and Gran Turismo. Others like to make Elite Beat Agents, Kirby, and Beatmania.

You seem annoyed that Nintendo is offering (because they certainly aren't forcing) developers a chance to try something else. It must be great being so sure of the direction of gaming as to be able to discount new ideas before they've even got going. But just for the people who make the games, please let's not insist that no one can release a game unless it has more beautiful explosions and more realistic bump-mapping than the previous one.

 

[DefectiveReject]

So just for the record... if DS and Wii both don't sell MORE than 140,000,000, can we deem it a failure? I'm not reading too much into this here, am I? Because that's what it sounds like, it sounds like the way to gauge success to 'mainstream' is if it sells EVEN MORE than that.

If not, then, it's all pretty much high talk no?

Nope but if the overall amount of sold consoles this coming generation beats out 140m of the current generation, with PS3 and 360 selling similar levels, wouldn’t that be deemed successful?

Also argue all the frick you want with your graphical trolling, Wii aint sold for its graphics, so to bitch you aint getting that, is your issue
Graphics aren’t the be all and end all of gaming, Sure they “help” immerse you that little bit more, but if the game itself is good enough, it’ll immerse you.

Some of the most fun I’ve ever had with gaming has been with my DS, because I’m having a different experience, that console sure isn’t immersive with graphics and sound, the GAMES are what draw me in.

 

[aeolist]

Amir0x you seem like such a terribly unhappy and angry person all the time.

 

[marc^o^]

You seem annoyed that Nintendo is offering (because they certainly aren't forcing) developers a chance to try something else. It must be great being so sure of the direction of gaming as to be able to discount new ideas before they've even got going. But just for the people who make the games, please let's not insist that no one can release a game unless it has more beautiful explosions and more realistic bump-mapping than the previous one.

A junior member teaching a mod, only on neogaf.

 

[DefectiveReject]

A junior member teaching a mod, only on neogaf.

Every mod started somewhere!

 

[Amir0x]

Nope but if the overall amount of sold consoles this coming generation beats out 140m of the current generation, with PS3 and 360 selling similar levels, wouldn’t that be deemed successful?

Wait, PS3 and 360 selling 'similar levels' to 140million? Yeah that'd be deemed a success, but that's already never going to happen sooo... it appears to me whatever number we gauge is gonna be pretty arbitrary. You made a point of saying "140m vs. 6billion' isn't mainstream, but neither would, say, 200m vs. 6billion by this logic. That's what I was getting at.

Gaming is already mainstream. Can Wii make it more mainstream? And if it did, why would I care? Is it going to make more of the games I love then?

Also argue all the frick you want with your graphical trolling, Wii aint sold for its graphics, so to bitch you aint getting that, is your issue. Graphics aren’t the be all and end all of gaming, Sure they “help” immerse you that little bit more, but if the game itself is good enough, it’ll immerse you.

Some of the most fun I’ve ever had with gaming has been with my DS, because I’m having a different experience, that console sure isn’t immersive with graphics and sound, the GAMES are what draw me in.

Who said graphics are the be all end all? I said they're extremely important, because they are. I'm the precise opposite of you anyway, Mr. Lakitu - I'm consistently finding I must lower my standards to enjoy DS games. It's the rarity, a game like Yoshi's Island DS where the true fun is.

Anyway, it seems to be the rule that somehow being different is enough - that's what it sounds like by your "because I'm having a difference experience" comment. Well, I've never been bored with gaming and never will be... so it's kinda pointless to care if something is different. Being different doesn't equal better or more fun.

Amir0x you seem like such a terribly unhappy and angry person all the time.

I'm very happy, thank you. Just not happy with the state of gaming at the moment! Fortunately, the "state of gaming" is pretty trivial in the grand scheme of things or else I WOULD be an angry person all the time!

A junior member teaching a mod, only on neogaf.

travisbickle is not a mod.

 

[psy18]

Note to self :
If you want to keep the fun, don't ever come near the boards.

 

[DefectiveReject]

Wait, PS3 and 360 selling 'similar levels' to 140million? Yeah that'd be deemed a success, but that's already never going to happen sooo... it appears to me whatever number we gauge is gonna be pretty arbitrary. You made a point of saying "140m vs. 6billion' isn't mainstream, but neither would, say, 200m vs. 6billion by this logic. That's what I was getting at.

Similar to those they are already bloody well selling. Jeez
And wouldn't 200m vs 6bn be a BIG step in the right direction?

Gaming is already mainstream. Can Wii make it more mainstream? And if it did, why would I care? Is it going to make more of the games I love then?

Yep gaming is mainstream you're right . . .

Who said graphics are the be all end all? I said they're extremely important, because they are. I'm the precise opposite of you anyway, Mr. Lakitu - I'm consistently finding I must lower my standards to enjoy DS games. It's the rarity, a game like Yoshi's Island DS where the true fun is.

Why do people even bother trying to argue with you, i bet you'd try to argue that i'm not actually a male Caucasian

Anyway, it seems to be the rule that somehow being different is enough - that's what it sounds like by your "because I'm having a difference experience" comment. Well, I've never been bored with gaming and never will be... so it's kinda pointless to care if something is different. Being different doesn't equal better or more fun.

I did and being different does equal more fun...... If it is more fun


Anything you argue from here you win....... i

 

[Xrenity]

Still feels like I got ripped off, thanks to the visual and audio package.

Launches suck in general, what can you do!

So why did you get it?

Could've waited for Zelda Cube, and you do, and just get Wii at a later point - near Mario Galaxy/Metroid releases.

 

[sprsk]

Ehhhhh.... I dunno if video games are quite mainstream. The ipod, now that is mainstream.

 

[Wrestlemania]

Gaming is already mainstream. Can Wii make it more mainstream? And if it did, why would I care? Is it going to make more of the games I love then?

I don't think more money being poured into the games industry from previously untapped markets could possibly be seen as anything but massively beneficial for the industry and therefore gamers, could it?

 

[Amir0x]

Ehhhhh.... I dunno if video games are quite mainstream. The ipod, now that is mainstream.

According to this, "only" 60,000,000 iPods have been sold worldwide. So what makes that mainstream, opposed to a PlayStation which has sold 100,000,000? Or the GBA which sold... god, a whole lot more than that 60mil.

To me, these things are mainstream... they're entrenched in pop culture, they're the butt of jokes, music and the playthings of countless millions worldwide. I mean, not everyone is ever gonna like gaming... and not everyone is gonna be able to afford it even if they do, so we're never gonna reach a billion systems sold.

I don't think more money being poured into the games industry from previously untapped markets could possibly be seen as anything but massively beneficial for the industry and therefore gamers, could it?

I don't know! Depends on what the industry interprets these new consumers want.

So why did you get it?

Could've waited for Zelda Cube, and you do, and just get Wii at a later point - near Mario Galaxy/Metroid releases.

I already said why above!

 

[Wrestlemania]

I don't know! Depends on what the industry interprets these new consumers want.

Mmm. But it's fair to say that if Nintendo see massive profits from a huge increase in the people buying their console and so called "non-gamer" games, that's not all just going to be put back entirely into development of similar products, mainly because I imagine these products costs far less to develop anyway.

 

[Xrenity]

I already said why above!

Missed it. Sounds like a legit reason

So, basically, you hopefully stop feeling ripped off around Metroid Prime 3's release?

 

[Amir0x]

Mmm. But it's fair to say that if Nintendo see massive profits from a huge increase in the people buying their console and so called "non-gamer" games, that's not all just going to be put back entirely into development of similar products, mainly because I imagine these products costs far less to develop anyway.

For sure. Purely in terms of the industry, more money is always better. For me as a consumer, that's where it gets more muddy... it COULD be better, depending on your perspective of things. I'm on the sidelines until i see where consumers start splitting here. There has never been a generation of consoles quite like this

 

[sprsk]

According to this, "only" 60,000,000 iPods have been sold worldwide. So what makes that mainstream, opposed to a PlayStation which has sold 100,000,000? Or the GBA which sold... god, a whole lot more than that 60mil.

To me, these things are mainstream... they're entrenched in pop culture, they're the butt of jokes, music and the playthings of countless millions worldwide. I mean, not everyone is ever gonna like gaming... and not everyone is gonna be able to afford it even if they do, so we're never gonna reach a billion systems sold.

I think maybe the concept of video games is entrenched in pop culture, but I think the ipod (even though it hasnt sold as much) is a product thats much more mainstream and accessible in the eyes of consumers.

 

[Magicpaint]

So ipod has sold around 60 million in 5 years? Oh then I suppose the whole 'mainstream' feel it has probably has more to do with mindshare that just sales. Videogames do sell in vast quantities, but I still think it has failed to hit as vast and varied a demographic as the ipod. That's why generally they're seen as less mainstream and more "niche".

 

[Belfast]

I "like" it, but don't love it. I think it still has a lot to prove to me, but it is nonetheless something a little different so it'll at least be somewhat better than the me-too GameCube. I have a habit of picking up consoles at launch, but the only one I kept from last gen was the PS2, if that's any indication.

 

[sprsk]

So ipod has sold around 60 million in 5 years? Oh then I suppose the whole 'mainstream' feel it has probably has more to do with mindshare that just sales. Videogames do sell in vast quantities, but I still think it has failed to hit as vast and varied a demographic as the ipod. That's why generally they're seen as less mainstream and more "niche".

Right, ipods are known and desired by all walks of life. I'm sure Nintendo wants to do the same thing, but eh if video games are continued to be mostly made for the male audience then it won't ever get that way.