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[StayDead]

First, I don't think anyone has proven that drawings actually appease any desires to abuse children. Comparing child abuse statistics from two wildly different countries doesn't come close to establishing that. But I will allow that it is a possibility.

There is still a huge difference between pedophilia and homosexuality, and I think it's actually pretty insulting to homosexuals to compare the two. There's still a huge difference between pedophilia and heterosexuality. I think you know the difference. Two adults willingly engaging in a homosexual or heterosexual act is nothing like an adult performing a sexual act upon a minor. In one case there is consent, in one there cannot be consent. To try and piggy back pedophilia on the goodwill gained by the gay rights movement in recent years is especially troublesome considering the historical conflation between homosexuality and pedophilia in anti-gay circles.

The only difference between homosexuals and peadophiles is a law that prevents one of them from acting on their urges. That's actually only been a difference fairly recently after countries started adopting an age of consent and they stopped banning people from having homosexual relationships (although they're still outlawed in some countries).

You don't choose to be sexually attracted to things. Ask anyone who's gay or straight and ask them if they actually chose to be attracted to who they are. You hit puberty and that's when your sexuality is defined , you have little to no choice in the matter. I'm a straight male and I couldn't suddenly turn around tomorrow and say "well I'm attracted to men now, I'll be gay from today" because that's not how it works.

I think it goes without saying that it's correct to criminalise peadophiles who react to their urges as it's wrong both by law and by moral standards, but I think criminalising anyone and demonising someone who does have that sexual attraction when they try and get help and won't act on their urges is terribly wrong and it's what leads to the cases of rape in the first place.

Also to do with this topic itself confusing ephebophillia which if anything the characters in the games we're talking about would be classed as is wrong because they're entirely different kettles of fish. Someone who's gone through puberty is physically ready to mate/have children and it's only the age of consent law which varies by country that depicts when those people are legally allowed to consent to sex. The characters in the majority of the games talked about are between 15-19, not 8 or 9 like some people seem to throw out for no apparent reason.

EDIT: Another huge misconception is people seem to confuse finding something cute/adorable with sexual attraction as well. That seems to come up a lot of the time in these sorts of threads.

 

[The Technomancer]

EDIT: Another huge misconception is people seem to confuse finding something cute/adorable with sexual attraction as well. That seems to come up a lot of the time in these sorts of threads.

That...conception might not be as strong if there weren't so many instances, in my experience, of people who enjoy the innocent side of things also, hmm...."hnnggging" at sexy fanservice art or fanart of said characters

 

[StayDead]

The "hnnngh" thing usually refers to something being so cute that you have a heart attack. I think it derived from the old hnnngh 4chan meme of the man clutching his chest.

 

[The Technomancer]

The "hnnngh" thing usually refers to something being so cute that you have a heart attack. I think it derived from the old hnnngh 4chan meme of the man clutching his chest.

Its more the sexy stuff, which is with some properties consistent enough to make me uncomfortable. Or just straight up explicit texture, see: the Neptunia games

Also in general sorry, but its just more difficult for me to swallow that there's absolutely nothing "attractive" going on when the characters in question are 99% female. There's no real reason why you can't have just as many cute, moe, childlike male characters, but it always seems to be about innocent, childlike or pure female characters and historically? That comes with some cultural baggage.

 

[StayDead]

Its more the sexy stuff, which is with some properties consistent enough to make me uncomfortable. Or just straight up explicit texture, see: the Neptunia games

Also in general sorry, but its just more difficult for me to swallow that there's absolutely nothing "attractive" going on when the characters in question are 99% female. There's no real reason why you can't have just as many cute, moe, childlike male characters, but it always seems to be about innocent, childlike or pure female characters and historically? That comes with some cultural baggage.

You're looking at a small example of games that get localised and ignoring the fact this exists in quite a large quantity. The boys love genre is gigantic and the fanbase is huge. It's just a lot of the stuff doesn't get localised.

 

[petran79]

The only difference between homosexuals and peadophiles is a law that prevents one of them from acting on their urges. That's actually only been a difference fairly recently after countries started adopting an age of consent and they stopped banning people from having homosexual relationships (although they're still outlawed in some countries).

You don't choose to be sexually attracted to things. Ask anyone who's gay or straight and ask them if they actually chose to be attracted to who they are. You hit puberty and that's when your sexuality is defined , you have little to no choice in the matter. I'm a straight male and I couldn't suddenly turn around tomorrow and say "well I'm attracted to men now, I'll be gay from today" because that's not how it works.

I think it goes without saying that it's correct to criminalise peadophiles who react to their urges as it's wrong both by law and by moral standards, but I think criminalising anyone and demonising someone who does have that sexual attraction when they try and get help and won't act on their urges is terribly wrong and it's what leads to the cases of rape in the first place.

Also to do with this topic itself confusing ephebophillia which if anything the characters in the games we're talking about would be classed as is wrong because they're entirely different kettles of fish. Someone who's gone through puberty is physically ready to mate/have children and it's only the age of consent law which varies by country that depicts when those people are legally allowed to consent to sex. The characters in the majority of the games talked about are between 15-19, not 8 or 9 like some people seem to throw out for no apparent reason.

EDIT: Another huge misconception is people seem to confuse finding something cute/adorable with sexual attraction as well. That seems to come up a lot of the time in these sorts of threads.

If a homosexual abuses sexually a minor, he's charged as a paedophile

 

[The Technomancer]

You're looking at a small example of games that get localised and ignoring the fact this exists in quite a large quantity. The boys love genre is gigantic and the fanbase is huge. It's just a lot of the stuff doesn't get localised.

From what I've seen its a bit different, precisely because its boy's love. Its juvenile romance yes, but it doesn't seem to be the same dynamic as most of the "waifu" fodder is, where either in gameplay (a dating sim) or just in terms of content (the female characters have no romantic or even friendly male connections in their lives) the characters are clearly meant to evoke feelings of attachment from the player, whereas yaoi media is much closer to traditional romance with, bizarrely, less traditional self-insert and a slightly more voyeuristic bent then traditional romance.

 

[Mr Moose]

What is Senran Kagura?

*Googles*

 

[Ultrabum]

The only difference between homosexuals and peadophiles is a law that prevents one of them from acting on their urges.

This is the single most hateful and offensive sentence I have ever read on NeoGAF.

 

[Blueblur1]

Christ, there is a defense force for everything.

Yeah, I can't believe what I'm reading.

 

[Brakke]

You don't choose to be sexually attracted to things. Ask anyone who's gay or straight and ask them if they actually chose to be attracted to who they are. You hit puberty and that's when your sexuality is defined , you have little to no choice in the matter. I'm a straight male and I couldn't suddenly turn around tomorrow and say "well I'm attracted to men now, I'll be gay from today" because that's not how it works.

I think it goes without saying that it's correct to criminalise peadophiles who react to their urges as it's wrong both by law and by moral standards, but I think criminalising anyone and demonising someone who does have that sexual attraction when they try and get help and won't act on their urges is terribly wrong and it's what leads to the cases of rape in the first place.

I think this is a good point, it took me a long time to come around on this myself. It's understandable that it makes people uncomfortable though. Talking about radio shows is boring, but there was a fascinating This American Life recently about teenagers/twentysomethings who realized they were pedophiles. The one guy had a story about trying to get therapy by the lady he saw couldn't handle it and turned him away. Pedophilia has such a strong, intractable stigma to it that it makes having a rational discussion (or research) about these kinds of representations difficult.

 

[StayDead]

This is the single most hateful and offensive sentence I have ever read on NeoGAF.

They're both sexual attractions though. I should've admittedly added heterosexuals there too, but they're all sexual attractions and none of them are chosen by the people who they affect.

 

[Ultrabum]

They're both sexual attractions though. I should've admittedly added heterosexuals there too, but they're all sexual attractions and none of them are chosen by the people who they affect.

When a Gay person acts on their feelings, it is with a consenting adult. When a pedofile acts on their feelings, it is with a non-consenting child.

This difference exists regardless of what laws say.

 

[KojiKnight]

This thread really turned dark while I was gone.

For you and me both... It seems like any topic on anything Japanese left open long enough eventually turns into a debate about pedophilia. It's like Godwin's law except instead of comparing people to Hitler, the topic goes into child rapists.

 

[gngf123]

When a Gay person acts on their feelings, it is with a consenting adult. When a pedofile acts on their feelings, it is with a non-consenting child.

This difference exists regardless of what laws say.

I think that's the key part here. People can't help who they are attracted to, they can help if they act on it or not.

Also, yeah I'll agree with those who say that this thread has changed topics entirely.

 

[Ultrabum]

I think that's the key part here.

People can't help who they are attracted to, they can help if they act on it or not.

You're right, it is a key part. Meaning that not only laws are the difference.

 

[Brakke]

This is the single most hateful and offensive sentence I have ever read on NeoGAF.

Not necessarily:

They're both sexual attractions though. I should've admittedly added heterosexuals there too, but they're all sexual attractions and none of them are chosen by the people who they affect.

However, while I absolutely agree with you, I still think it's bad rhetoric to draw a line between homosexuality and pedophilia. So much unexamined stigma for the second, so much people-just-starting-to-come-around on the on the first. When people have equated homosexuality to bestiality in high profile and recently, equating homosexuality and pedophilia is dangerous.

It's worth having a distinction between pedophilia and actually having sex with children; the first is in some ways an affliction: something many people didn't ask for that they likely have to struggle with all their life, as many pedophiles don't want to become the second: a predatory criminal who destroys lives.

 

[KojiKnight]

You're right, it is a key part. Meaning that not only laws are the difference.

I think in their haste to post something, they posted something insensitive without thinking about it.

That said, I can't imagine what it must like to be someone who's physically attracted to children... though I've heard their suicide rate can be quite high. Being near impossible for them to find help because of the huge stigma attached would be very isolating...

I think the only reason why the gay community was even brought up was because there was a time not that long ago when they were viewed the same way or even sometimes often worse than people attracted to children.

It's of course a very imperfect comparison because of the whole consenting adult part

 

[Gbraga]

The worst thing about lolis is that they're mostly super annoying. God, I hate children.

There are some exception like Kate in Zvezda, she's AWESOME, but overall I really dislike child characters. ugh

What we need is more cakes.

And monster girls, we really need monster girls in gaming. Kemonomimi is fine too if monster girls are too much.

 

[gngf123]

You're right, it is a key part. Meaning that not only laws are the difference.

That... might not be quite what I was going for.

I think StayDead was trying to remove the "acting" part entirely from the equation. Instead, focusing purely on the fundamental attraction part. There was no hateful stuff intended. When you remove the acting part it becomes similar: In both cases people cannot help who they are attracted to, and in both cases it might even be that people are born that way. This also works with hetereosexual attraction and everything else you could come up with. I will admit saying there is "no difference" without explaining anything else can seem massively insensitive and kind of crazy without full context.

When comparing the two more generally, the big difference obviously is that in one case acting on that is clearly very wrong. Mostly because of the consent reason you listed. Not only in law but also in general common sense. I dare say a lot of people who have that attraction are aware of this and never act on it, and instead would actually kind of like help. I would argue that the high suicide rate is pretty clear evidence of people who want help and are completely unable to get it.

Of course there are cases where that sadly isn't the case and they start dealing with all sorts of messed up stuff. And well, fuck those people.

EDIT: I also want to get out of this discussion, I don't even know why a thread about fanservice turned into a thread debating the ins and outs of pedophilia.

 

[LuchaShaq]

When did fan service become the term for scantily clad pre teens?

At least if they weren't so creepily young it wouldn't be so distracting.

Fan service to me was always just shit like the friend scenes in ME3 that didn't really matter.


I'd love to love games like Demon Gaze but after a bit I just can't take it anymore and give up because it's constantly ugly and shitty in this way.

 

[plagiarize]

When a Gay person acts on their feelings, it is with a consenting adult. When a pedofile acts on their feelings, it is with a non-consenting child.

This difference exists regardless of what laws say.

Well, no. Because it's the laws that say people below a certain age *can't* consent. That's a legal definition too.

The laws are in place for good reason and I don't think anyone is disputing them. I'm sure there are people that find children sexually attractive that have never slept with someone underage or consumed illegal child pornography.

I don't think you should equate pedophiles with child rapists, basically.

 

[rpmurphy]

I'm just surprised it took this long to catch on. Itagaki's daughters should have proven that there is a dedicated niche for lewd games.

 

[StayDead]

That... might not be quite what I was going for.

I think StayDead was trying to remove the "acting" part entirely from the equation. Instead, focusing purely on the fundamental attraction part. There was no hateful stuff intended. When you remove the acting part it becomes similar: In both cases people cannot help who they are attracted to, and in both cases it might even be that people are born that way. This also works with hetereosexual attraction and everything else you could come up with. I will admit saying there is "no difference" without explaining anything else can seem massively insensitive and kind of crazy without full context.

When comparing the two more generally, the big difference obviously is that in one case acting on that is clearly very wrong. Mostly because of the consent reason you listed. Not only in law but also in general common sense. I dare say a lot of people who have that attraction are aware of this and never act on it, and instead would actually kind of like help. I would argue that the high suicide rate is pretty clear evidence of people who want help and are completely unable to get it.

Of course there are cases where that sadly isn't the case and they start dealing with all sorts of messed up stuff. And well, fuck those people.

EDIT: I also want to get out of this discussion, I don't even know why a thread about fanservice turned into a thread debating the ins and outs of pedophilia.

Thankyou, yes you just explained what I meant in a better fashion. I'm not very good with words. I too, would also li ke to get out of the discussion now since I've made my point and I don't really have anything to add.

I do find it strange that this sort of discussion always comes up, but I think the fault lies with people who equate something like Senran Kagura to peadophillia in the first place.

 

[Jobbs]

I don't think you should equate pedophiles with child rapists, basically.

The only difference between homosexuals and peadophiles is a law that prevents one of them from acting on their urges.

No matter what kind of commitment to logic exists in your mind, I think if you find yourself in the position of defending pedophiles, it's time to stop typing. XD

 

[BlitzBlake]

Perhaps you guys should watch the documentary "are all men paedophiles?" Whilst it's not a 100% rock solid nor unbiased it does bring up a few important points that most people seem to overlook.

 

[Kintaro]

This thread is a good example why I have pretty much abandoned threads on most anything Japanese on this forum. The discussion is clearly OT and was subtly baited into this direction.

 

[Gbraga]

This thread is a good example why I have pretty much abandoned threads on most anything Japanese on this forum. The discussion is clearly OT and was subtly baited into this direction.

While I do think you're right, this time the discussion was surprisingly good and informative, definitely the best I've ever seen here on GAF. I guess this is the reason the thread wasn't locked, some really good points being made and overall people are being very respectful.

 

[chaobreaker]

This thread is a good example why I have pretty much abandoned threads on most anything Japanese on this forum. The discussion is clearly OT and was subtly baited into this direction.

A lot of GAFers have grievances with the kind of Japanese games that are coming over it seems.

I honestly don't blame them.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

This thread is a good example why I have pretty much abandoned threads on most anything Japanese on this forum. The discussion is clearly OT and was subtly baited into this direction.

I take the bait, some posters really do believe we should all agree on an issue when it's not that simple.

 

[Kintaro]

While I do think you're right, this time the discussion was surprisingly good and informative, definitely the best I've ever seen here on GAF. I guess this is the reason the thread wasn't locked, some really good points being made and overall people are being very respectful.

I don't mind the discussion itself. Its a valid one. It just gets baited into this direction so often that it becomes too easy to associate these games and the discussion together. Its cyclical. Its tiresome.

 

[Shingro]

At work so I'll be brief, but I'll always take the bait because as long as someone isn't hurting anyone I do not give a damn what they masturbate to.

I believe the same for the sexual fandom parts of furries, same for bronies, lego, funiture, or the recently exhumed corpse of carl sagen.

doesn't matter. If you aren't actually hurting anyone, if it's just in your own head you get a pass in my book.

and I think it's worth saying so.

 

[Crash Station]

The worst thing about lolis is that they're mostly super annoying. God, I hate children.

There are some exception like Kate in Zvezda, she's AWESOME, but overall I really dislike child characters. ugh

What we need is more cakes.

And monster girls, we really need monster girls in gaming. Kemonomimi is fine too if monster girls are too much.

Kate is like 100% standard loli. She yells a lot and has an annoying voice.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

At work so I'll be brief, but I'll always take the bait because as long as someone isn't hurting anyone I do not give a damn what they masturbate to.

I believe the same for the sexual fandom parts of furries, same for bronies, lego, funiture, or the recently exhumed corpse of carl sagen.

doesn't matter. If you aren't actually hurting anyone, if it's just in your own head you get a pass in my book.

and I think it's worth saying so.

I agree 100%.

 

[Uthred]

If a homosexual abuses sexually a minor, he's charged as a paedophile

No, I'm pretty sure he's charged for sexual assault and child abuse, paedophilia i.e. the sate of being isnt illegal in most places just acting on it

EDIT: I also want to get out of this discussion, I don't even know why a thread about fanservice turned into a thread debating the ins and outs of pedophilia.

Its a thread about niche Japanese games on Neogaf, when do they ever not descend into "debates" about pedophilia?

 

[Crash Station]

No matter what kind of commitment to logic exists in your mind, I think if you find yourself in the position of defending pedophiles, it's time to stop typing. XD

I say read this article from a doctor that studies pedophilia. I don't see anything wrong with trying to learn more and take a more sympathetic stance toward the people that are often considered to have the most heinous "preference" out there.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

No matter what kind of commitment to logic exists in your mind, I think if you find yourself in the position of defending pedophiles, it's time to stop typing. XD

I totally missed this post, hahaha... oh man, so pedophiles don't deserve any type of respect? They didn't chose to be attracted to children, I can't imagine how awful it must be to just be attracted to little kids, sounds fucking awful and I'd wish people were more supportive of them instead of demonizing them.

Many are probably too scared of going to therapy or whatever might help them over people acting like they are monsters.

 

[TheBryanJZX90]

I totally missed this post, hahaha... oh man, so pedophiles don't deserve any type of respect? They didn't chose to be attracted to children, I can't imagine how awful it must be to just be attracted to little kids, sounds fucking awful and I'd wish people were more supportive of them instead of demonizing them.

Many are probably too scared of going to therapy or whatever might help them over people acting like they are monsters.

I'm ok with having therapy and other treatments available for pedophiles. I'm OK with encouraging them to seek such treatment. I'm not OK with anything that suggests it's not wrong to have those desires, even if they never act on them. Because even thinking that about a child is wrong.

 

[_hekk05]

JPN games threads always devolve into arguments about pedophila by page 5. Always.

I've learned not to participate in the discussion, but I can't help pointing out that there is no such thing as being charged under the law for pedophilia. Pedophilia itself is not a crime, it is classified as a psychiatric disorder.

For actual laws, you can get charged with child sexual abuse / rape of a child / corruption of a minor / unlawful sex with a minor / carnal knowledge of a minor etc depending on your jurisdiction. This is for sexual crimes against minors (prepubescent).

Statutory rape is sexual activity when one person is below the age required to legally consent to the behaviour, generally for a sexually adult minor past the age of puberty.

Get your law terms right, and continue arguing!! Reading these threads never gets old.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

I'm ok with having therapy and other treatments available for pedophiles. I'm OK with encouraging them to seek such treatment. I'm not OK with anything that suggests it's not wrong to have those desires, even if they never act on them. Because even thinking that about a child is wrong.

I've thought about a lot of stuff that others could consider horrible like most people probably do, and guess what? I'm a responsible adult and will not act upon any of that.

If it stays in your mind, it doesn't matter.

 

[Briarios]

The only difference between homosexuals and peadophiles is a law that prevents one of them from acting on their urges.

What you should have said is "The only difference between straight people, homosexuals and peadophiles ..." Otherwise, you're purposely being offensive by linking the two.

The fact is, there is a HUGE difference between being attracted to someone who has sexually matured and someone who has not. That's why one is an affliction and the other is not.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Sony dropped their most restrictive concept approval stuff, minimum print runs declined, digital became a factor, small publishers started up, more aggressive region locks and bad exchange rate situations led to a decline in importing, Japanese games have gone further in that direction, and the first few releases did well enough to keep the trend going.


Edit: oh, I see, never mind.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

I've thought about a lot of stuff that others could consider horrible like most people probably do, and guess what? I'm a responsible adult and will not act upon any of that.

If it stays in your mind, it doesn't matter.

Yeah, that's fine. I don't have to respect you for it, though.

 

[Dead Early]

Well, I sort of figured after years of weeaboos such as myself clamoring "Localize X" to whomever would listen, they finally got the message.

EDIT: Oh, have the thought police invaded the thread? Dearie me.

 

[_hekk05]

Well, I sort of figured after years of weeaboos such as myself clamoring "Localize X" to whomever would listen, they finally got the message.

True fans learn japanese. I'm trying so hard but I still can't get git gud.