TC McQueen
Member
AFAIK, they don't need someone to have the Gundam license to publish a Gundam game in the US and Europe, because Dynasty Warriors Gundam Reborn is coming out soon as a sub-only release.
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So much jp smut/fanservice games are localized in recent years, what changed?
- Thread starter chickdigger802
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HolyBaikal
Banned
That's really tragic and horrible and I'm horrified and the horrible accidents people have gone through that hurt their minds. It's very sad and disturbing to think about. I love my mind and wouldn't want anything bad to happen to it so I immediately feel sad when I think about it happening to someone else.
But I still think that most people are capable of empathy and it should certainly be encouraged. I think that everyone should have empathy. I'm not for curing autism if people don't want it, and people's neurodiversity should be expected. But if someone has a condition that is causing them them to be cruel and sadistic, I really hope there is a cure to make people more mentally healthy in any and all ways, including having more empathy.
I don't think that people should try to cure what body type people are attracted to, that would be horrible. I don't what people curing what body type I'm attracted to or other people either. But I do think that if people have a neurological problem causing them to not have empathy, I really hope there is a cure for that and that these people get more empathy.
I think that most people basically have the same minds. And that most things are learned. Most of the brain is 'plastic', and changes complete over someone's life because of what it experiences. The mind rewires itself. And while there are a few things that aren't normally rewired, most of the mind and who we are is. And we should always encourage empathy and kindness to those who are able to change.
So, basically, it's a kayos fetish
I have yet to see blade and soul beign localized I think the MMO wing needs to open up to some.
That head looks grafted on... creepy...
Crash Station
Member
It's a discussion. Not sure what pointing out someone's tone is going to accomplish if his/her post actually has useful information.
TheBryanJZX90
Member
he didn't really dispute it.
I dunno what "side of the angels" is, I'm more "side of people that think the prevalence of this kind of imagery in a medium I enjoy is disgusting."
But anyway, let's make the rather large jump from the single data point you've established (because math!) and assume that yes, looking at sexy cartoon eight year olds calms the raging pedophile beast lurking inside loli fans and actually decreases violence towards children in real life.... the imagery in these games is Still. Creepy. As. Fuck. I still would think it's disgusting and still would think people that consume it are disgusting. I would still want it out of mainstream games and would still think it a distasteful subject of discussion on mainstream gaming message boards. I would be just as disappointed as I am now that a genre I used to enjoy now mainly panders to people that enjoy such imagery. All you've done is convince me that maybe the material shouldn't be illegal.
Crash Station
Member
I can't remember, where you one of the guys arguing in the Tomodachi Life thread that people shouldn't be judged for their innate sexual preferences?
TheBryanJZX90
Member
You've got problems if you equate homosexuality with pedophilia.
But what about those unable to change? What do we do with them?
I think you have an admirable stance, and I agree that encouraging kindness in the world is a laudable goal.
However, as per Eagleman's arguments, there are cases, perhaps a surprising amount of them, where people's brains just don't work like other people's brains. We have very different degrees of scads of chemicals. The rash of ADD/ADHD proved that very effectively. To say nothing of clinical depression and all sorts of things. If someone's frontal lobe is just underdeveloped, and they take their deviant desire and make it harmless? I just can't see how we can say that person is wrong/bad/awful.
I do agree we should encourage the kindness and empathy in the world, but I think there's more harm to the net empathy in the world with mass pejoratives against people who fetishize something we find creepy, then those people's affects on the world themselves.
However I think that if a consenting couple likes to get off on rape fantasy or bondage I don't think they're harming themselves, others, or society. Even though they are directly fetishizing the inability to consent, unless they're actively taking away someone's abiltiy to consent they're okay in my book. If someone says "People who have rape fantasies are one step away from, or are practically already rapists" that's where we lose the lion's share of empathy in my eyes. To Each Their Own and all that.
And for me at least that copies over to loli stuff, perverted games, innuendo, sexualization and all that stuff. There's no "Other" to be harmed in games. They're safe escapism and always have been. The only way to claim others are being harmed despite no others being present is either "Slippery Slope" argument, or the "Actively alters society" argument.
Both of these all video gamers who lived through the Jack Thompson era should be *very* familiar with and the many faults of such a position, and the scads of evidence against them.
I dunno, the brain is super weird, and we're not going to know how exactly it's affected for a very long time. I've got zero problem with people saying "Hey, this stuff isn't for me"
I can't help but fight against anyone saying "This stuff shouldn't be for anyone" No matter what that "stuff" is so long as it harms no real people.
So the real question is: Does it?
I'd suggest you don't bother with our friend Bryan. You should be able to recognize someone just trying to start flames and derail actual conversation
It's funny though "He didn't really dispute it."
SatelliteOfLove
Member
I honestly do not care one bit they're being serviced by companies or even how. It being ALL THE COMPANIES is where the problem lies. The market is sick, and this is a symptom.
I blame this game for opening the floodgates for more obscure Japanese pantsu games.
It pretty much the perfect example of the type of Japanese games that come over here now.
- Wacky humor you only see on late night anime shows in Japan
- Liberal use of anime tropes and references
- Gameplay is a derivative of classic games of old but turned up to 11
- Character design that is questionable at best, scandalous at worst (how old is Etna? 1470 years old? Suuuuuure)
- Developed by either NIS, Gust, or Idea Factory.
Disgaea 1 is honestly more of a last stop of regular-ass anime mentalities before it crosses into pandering. Absurdism ruled the roost. Most of the bits on there are being parodied, abused, flipped, and generally played with. They use anime tropes. Then you look at later NI games and the tropes are reverently and delicately tended to. Scenes revolve around a "payoff" pandering to a specific niche trope. Tropes use them. The crowd serviced by this is explicitly here for that trope in that way in that situation. Would they stick around if that payoff wasn't there, or it wasn't handled in an expected fashion?
Wow, thats some mental leap right there. I think its also a little hyperbolic to say that the majority of jrpgs (Im assuming thats what you meant by a genre you used to enjoy?) are thinly disguised pedo wank material. I'm not a fan of "loli" designs (on aesthetic rather than moral grounds), and I mean actual loli designs not the pointlessly wide brush people use, and I still find plenty of JRPG's to play.
HolyBaikal
Banned
Well, I hope that we have all sorts of better surgeries to improve people's quality of life and society. From life extension, to curing seizures, to removing painful and horrible memories for those who want them removed, to giving people better memory, to even giving people more empathy.
I think that neurodiversity should be respected and I don't think that anyone should be cured of their sexuality and what body type they're attracted to. But I do think people should have empathy. And people particularly who are dangerous and want to hurt others should be cured. I think it's much better to cure people and give them more empathy than to lock them away.
Again, I think that people's individuality and diversity should be respected. But dangerous people are an exception to the rule. I don't like the jail system, I think it's too focused on punishment rather than rehabilitation. I think that society should be focused on making people better rather than punishing them.
But for people who have disorders causing them to be harmful, and we don't have a cure, we should try to isolate them and look for a cure.
Crash Station
Member
I'm equating it with heterosexuality as well, as in an attraction that people do not choose. There have been some recent studies that pedophilia is not always a result of child abuse and actually something people are born with. They just can't and shouldn't be able to act on those urges.
If drawings appease their desires and not real humans, I'm all for that.
The mod Opiate would back me up on this, but this probably isn't a thread he would enter.
plasmawave
Banned
i wonder how old this poster is:
"^thanks dude. omitted ages is fine. it's between us and our perverted minds."
probably wouldn't be "perverted" if they were a high schooler/middle schooler
i dunno, it's just weird when I'm at gamestop and the balding, 30 something clerk is telling me how awesome Persona 4 Golden is, when it's a game that's like 50% about picking up high schoolers.
High school kids need to get laid too, bro. Stop being old and selfish!
NinjamicWZ
Banned
We made it past the innocent 90's, the "Japan sux lolz" editorial movement kind of peaked and went out of style, and DD helped establish this idea that the extreme low-end can be the new middle.
I have yet to see blade and soul beign localized I think the MMO wing needs to open up to some.
it's like bayonetta, but done by an underpaid person who didn't give a fuck and popped a loli head on it
TheBryanJZX90
Member
Yeah, I was a bit imprecise there. I suppose I didn't necessarily mean everyone that plays such a game, just the ones who get some kind of sexual kick out of them.
Crash Station
Member
HolyBaikal
Banned
And yet the majority of porn depicts men dominating women. And reinforces hegemonic masculinity and stereotypes of women as submissive and men as dominant. And a lot of this pornography depicts outright rape. These aren't unusual people with injuries that make them sadistic or less empathetic. There's clearly something social at play.
And the very desire is mean and wouldn't it be good for less people to have less mean feelings and desires to begin with? It's better for people to only think mean things than to do mean things, but neither thinking or doing mean things is very good. Empathetic feelings tend to reflect empathetic behavior, and mean feelings tend to reflect unempathetic behavior. Even if someone who likes rape porn might not be a rapist, the mean feelings that cause them to like that could cause them to hurt and abuse someone in some other way.
There's a limit to how much we can do but we should certainly try to promote a nicer world how we can. And I think that nice behavior starts with nice feelings and desires and empathy, not the desire to rape and hurt and be cruel to others. Even if just to fictional characters, the desire to hurt people like that is awfully worrisome. I don't like it, and I don't want to see it, and it bothers and worries me.
Aha! now we're getting somewhere. How exactly is it doing that? Also, what about rape fantasy from the other direction? There's scads of women who like bondage and being the M. Fifty Shades of Grey didn't sell for it's outstanding grammar. Are all those people sick? Mislead? Would they be "better off" if they didn't like fifty shades of grey or identify and appreciate the desires outlined within? I personally know a woman who had to basically rap her knuckles on her boyfriend's head to indulge her fantasies in the bedroom, and he spoke to me at length about how uncomfortable he was about meeting her desires since he's always been told it was "Bad and wrong."
Again we get dangerously close to saying "It's better for you if you don't like that" Which is a very paternalistic attitude towards anyone, but to women in specific here, and thus something second and third wave feminism wouldn't be too happy with.
How do we avoid falling in that trap? This is where the snake starts to eat it's own tail and things remain eternally unsolved. If we can figure what is permissible fantasy and why in a non-paradoxal way. We'll have "solved" a great many "-isms" in society at large, and by extension, gaming. Since most gaming is basically an indulgence of some form of fantasy.
Edit: For the record I'm really glad you've indulged this topic forthrightly and with intellectual honesty. It's very very very hard to find that conversation as a lot of this thread hints at. Even if we can't figure this out, I've really enjoyed discussing it with you.
The Silver
Member
I just wanna come here and say that smut is such an ugly and disgusting sounding word.
TheShampion
Member
Man, going from the first page to the final page, this thread really changed its tone.
I hate when people pathologize and judge people by the media they consume, especially video games. When people try and tell me what I am thinking subconsciously, in an interactive medium no less, it is hard to take them seriously. People who dedicate their lives and do experiments on how the human brain works don't have a clear idea about how it all works, but many places I have seen this type of discussion held seems filled to the brim with experts who know better than you what you are feeling.
Until we live in a society that is free of sex-shaming, media that attempts to be sexual in any way outside of the mainstream is just going to be thrown into the same category is some horrible rape simulator. I feel like many people are just condemning the symptoms while giving no heed to what is actually causing all this.
It's funny, I actually don't play any games that do this sort of thing as far as I know. I just get bummed out that we are finally getting more games localized and at every turn there is just more and more proof that, despite people working hard to translate this stuff, it will probably get ignored and pariahed just because it resembles something people dislike.
I hate when people pathologize and judge people by the media they consume, especially video games. When people try and tell me what I am thinking subconsciously, in an interactive medium no less, it is hard to take them seriously. People who dedicate their lives and do experiments on how the human brain works don't have a clear idea about how it all works, but many places I have seen this type of discussion held seems filled to the brim with experts who know better than you what you are feeling.
Until we live in a society that is free of sex-shaming, media that attempts to be sexual in any way outside of the mainstream is just going to be thrown into the same category is some horrible rape simulator. I feel like many people are just condemning the symptoms while giving no heed to what is actually causing all this.
It's funny, I actually don't play any games that do this sort of thing as far as I know. I just get bummed out that we are finally getting more games localized and at every turn there is just more and more proof that, despite people working hard to translate this stuff, it will probably get ignored and pariahed just because it resembles something people dislike.
HolyBaikal
Banned
Both men and women are taught and internalize gender roles by society.
And a lot of women hold misogynistic beliefs.
There are also many black parents who belittle the curly or frizzy or afro-textured hair of their children and other stereotypically African features. If society is able to make many black people uncomfortable with their bodies and even make many black parents uncomfortable with their children's looks, why couldn't similar things be true of gender?
Whatever the situation of individuals, there's definitely social trends. And one of those social trends is the normization and the fetishization and sexualization of rape and men dominating women. I think that society is teaching people to feel this way. Not just men that it's normal to want to dominate women and that they want to dominate women, but women that it's normal and that they want to be dominated.
Of course, consensual BDSM is different from actual abuse. But there are some really worrisome social trends. And I don't think it's paternalistic to be worried about this.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Resembles? It is the stuff people dislike. I don't want to play shit like Mugen Souls. As far as I'm concerned, games like that are precisely the problem. It's not that those games have sexualized characters, either -- it's that the game is typically a piece of shit that the devs thought they could pass off as a finished product because some lonely creeps will buy it entirely for the lolis. As long as dreck like that gets localized while Yakuza 5 or Final Fantasy Type-0 or Dragon Quest VII for 3DS are left on the shelf, yeah, I find it difficult to care that anyone took the time to localize it.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
But would you be willing to say outright that all those women who enjoy being the M or appreciate a work of fiction like fifty shades of grey hold misogynistic beliefs? That would be a pejorative towards a vast number of women's sexual expression and desires. Implying there's a "right" and a "wrong" type of desire would indeed be paternalistic. This is part of the paradox loop in these things. I personally can't feel comfortable telling someone what they should and shouldn't like. Assuming that if someone likes bondage, or scat or any other thing I find personally distasteful that they must have internalized some sort of "bad" influence, that they couldn't have made that choice of their own free will. Maybe we're getting to a second wave vs third wave divide?
Personally I feel that if we compared say, 1950s vs today, we're definitely sliding the bar towards women being the badasses/dominators/etc. I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree on the direction of the "societal movement" given time.
Actually in order to make it a more positive question lets flip that (I'd hate to imply a perjorative myself.) Would you be willing to say that a woman could decide she liked being in bondage exclusively of her own free will?
I don't see how one game being localized prevents other games from being localized. We are getting stuff like bravely default.
besides, fundamentally it's a factor of what people are willing to open their wallets for. If they're opening their wallets for "lonely boy games" then that's what the market will provide.
Doesn't prevent people from opening their wallets for other stuff, Project Rainfall worked after all. If you want the other stuff the key is creating a groundswell underneath them. A stable market that companies can count on.
There will always be very lonely people. That's a stable market. Once square is convinced (BD's success was a great start) they'll bring their stuff over too.
No reason we can't all play together =)
There aren't a whole lot of threads where one can call other members pedophiles without repercussion, so people like to get their fill when a chance comes along.
zeopower6
Member
This is a pretty odd stance considering that I don't think companies like XSEED/Aksys/NISA even have the ability to consider localizing those games. :|
Those things don't really have anything to do with each other, though. Sega and SE aren't going to let small publishers like XSEED or Aksys localize their games, so it's not like they passed them over in favor of stuff like Mugen Souls. I'm as frustrated about it as you are, it's really unfortunate that they'd rather make no money at all in the west on those games than let someone else localize them and reap the profits.
Crash Station
Member
Putting the sexualization argument aside, I do agree that some of those games are flat out bad. Gust knows what its doing most of the time, but Idea Factory generally doesn't.
Doesn't mean I can't be excited for Eiyuu Senki since I've heard it's legitimately good.
Doesn't mean I can't be excited for Eiyuu Senki since I've heard it's legitimately good.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Honestly? While I'll certainly debate about any number of social or artistic critiques of sexualization, on a more personal level I just find fanservice patronizing.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
C'mon, guys, extrapolate a little. I'm not saying it has to be those exact games that come over -- just something that's a little less pandering than the typical NIS game.
zeopower6
Member
Then what games? I feel like recently we've been getting just about everything that isn't a visual novel in the West outside of SE/Sega/Capcom's pool of titles that they don't seem to want to bring over.
TheBryanJZX90
Member
First, I don't think anyone has proven that drawings actually appease any desires to abuse children. Comparing child abuse statistics from two wildly different countries doesn't come close to establishing that. But I will allow that it is a possibility.
There is still a huge difference between pedophilia and homosexuality, and I think it's actually pretty insulting to homosexuals to compare the two. There's still a huge difference between pedophilia and heterosexuality. I think you know the difference. Two adults willingly engaging in a homosexual or heterosexual act is nothing like an adult performing a sexual act upon a minor. In one case there is consent, in one there cannot be consent. To try and piggy back pedophilia on the goodwill gained by the gay rights movement in recent years is especially troublesome considering the historical conflation between homosexuality and pedophilia in anti-gay circles.
No reason you shouldn't feel that way, that's the nature of an appeal. Heck, it's pretty difficult to make a sexual element in media NOT feel patronizing in some way just due to the volume of it. Even those that have really interesting things to say (Ar Tonelico) are considered some of the most patronizing (Ar Tonelico =P)
Heck, Catherine's design in Catherine is pretty pandery, but that's the best relationship commentary in games (besides Ar tonelico of course)
Still, there's a market of people who enjoy being pandered to, and I think they're a neutral presence at worst, and positive at best.
Crash Station
Member
At least it's better here than other places. Over at Something Awful, having certain opinions on the subject can get people digging up stuff on you and calling the cops.
Which is a perfectly fine opinion to have. I even agree that it's crept its way into the mainstream more than it probably should have. People have every right to be creeped out or put off by it, and it does make sifting through that stuff to find the actual appealing stuff tougher if you have a particularly big aversion to it.
That being said, there are still anime and games from Japan that do not fall under that category. Which reminds me, why haven't you been posting in the Hunter x Hunter thread lately :0
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I'm not sure of the best legal way to watch the anime (I'm sure there is but I just haven't bothered) and I'm more of a manga guy anyway
I've been reading the HxH manga for like 7 years nowI have yet to see blade and soul beign localized I think the MMO wing needs to open up to some.
why bother? skyrim already has numerous XXX "loli" mods with totally naked little girls (children, as in pedophilia.) that is a western game btw. as much as I can acknowledge such perversion in japanese culture, it would be willful ignorance to say that american culture is not just as bad.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Well, Sega, SE, and Capcom stuff is a lot of it. Some other things off the top of my head, though:
Lots of Falcom games
Cave shooters
Actually, a lot of other shmups, too, particularly on 360
Persona 2: Eternal Punishment (PSP)
Zangeki no Reginleiv
Gundam Extreme Vs.
Fatal Frame 4
Suikoden I & II
I dunno. That's just random stuff that comes to mind. I'll admit that the biggest problem right now is that Japan's still in a creative rut (to put it mildly.)
True seems like these types of threads ignore anything but those evil Japanese games.
Play what you like .don't let others views shame the content you want to enjoy. Japan is an awesome place and has issues like anywhere else in the world. Enjoy/hate these puritan threads but everyone is due a say if they choose.
Hellsing321
Member
They realized that the West has perverts willing to part with their money too.
A lot of that is very old though, (except gundam, which is a JP vs USA licensing issue)
I think I can confidently say that you actually have a lot to look forwards to if Bravely Default's run away success is any indication. The japanese market is "aging away" from video games which means all those japanese companies are going to look to other markets, and that means english speakers. To say nothing of the ever better machine translation.
It's just that a sexual market is a safe market, so we're seeing that first, but the normal stuff will come.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
I was primarily going for stuff that's old enough that we can say pretty much for sure isn't coming Stateside at this point.
I want to believe that Japan's going to figure its shit out and try making cool stuff again, but I dunno. Something's got to kick them in the ass and make them ignore the otaku market first.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Consent is not what he's talking about, he's saying that pedophiles don't chose to be attracted to children, just like homosexuals don't chose to be attracted to the same sex, heterosexuals don't chose to be attracted to the opposite sex and bisexuals(like myself) don't chose to be attracted to both sexes. People who are attracted to children have been demonized because of an attraction that they can't control, because of this it's hard for any of these people to get any help and it hammers into their heads that they are wrong for liking something that they have no control over. Many of these people feel they will never be happy and the stigma over it causes many of them to snap and act on their urges, something that might not have happened if they could have gotten help. I sympathize with those who have an attraction to children because they didn't chose to be attracted to them, it's just a shame that it is near impossible for them to get any help in most of the world.
zeopower6
Member
I don't think they can ever ignore the otaku market because they'll be the ones to pay for limited editions and so on. It's usually the sameish developers making those kinds of games anyway that never really made non-otaku-friendly stuff to begin with.
HolyBaikal
Banned
Well, it depends on what defines as misogyny.
There are many feminist women who are masochists.
I don't think by and large people who feel this way hold overty sexist beliefs, though I'm sure that some of them do.
More, most people internalize racist and sexist belief that they don't even realize. Women, when being asked to do a test, and fill out their gender, score lower statistically on math and science, just from filling out a question about their gender.
Race and gender both play a role it how people perceive themselves, based upon society. And influences how they score on academic tests, just being remembering it.
If this is true of education, I'm sure that it's true to some degree of sexuality and an influence or sadistic or masochistic feelings. I don't think I would say that women who are masochists "hold misogynistic beliefs". But I would say that everyone in society has internalized misogynistic beliefs, including even the most radical of feminists.
Well, I think that wanting to rape someone is more than personally distasteful. That rape is bad isn't a personal feeling. It's a horrible and awful violence. And rape is a widespread problem.
And I think that these desires must come from somewhere. And since it's a part of a social trend, I don't think it can be explained by poor people with injuries causing them problems in being able to feel empathy.
It depends on your idea of what free will is.
If free will means indeterminism and that the mind is separate from cause and effect. Then no, I don't think that's scientifically sound. Free will doesn't exist, for anyone or anything that exists in this universe. At the quantum level, there is some probability rather than certainty. But the vast majority of everything is deterministic. And probabilistic wouldn't mean that free will exists, it would mean that behavior would be caused by random chance and probability rather than cause and effect, not free will.
We are all subject to the results of cause and effect. We are all here and doing exactly what we're doing now because of trillions and trillions of causes and effects. And something that is only probabilistic rather than deterministic, only at the tiniest level that doesn't fit with the rest of physics which is completely cause and effect.
The kind of "free will" that personal choice is more important to making decisions than cause and effect simply doesn't make sense with the laws of physics. People make choice, but people's choices and feelings come from somewhere and people don't have unlimited choices.
As for the free will meaning that they simply had a choice and no one was forcing them to do anything. Of course it was their choice, in some cultures women have had no free will to choose at all, as their lives were decided by their families and society. But that free will doesn't change the fact that everyone is influenced and become who they are because of things and people around them that influence them and change what choices they have.
In the case of seeing trends like fat women being unhappy with their bodies, or a tendency for men to be seen as dominant, or black women being unhappy with their bodies, free will isn't the only thing making this happy. Society is teaching people things. And not all of those things are healthy.
It doesn't mean everyone who feels things like this is bad. It means there's something wrong in society. And yes, there's something wrong with women and people of colour not liking themselves.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Well, I'm going to go out on a limb here anyway and suggest that pedophiles are wrong for liking kids.
Crash Station
Member
The difference is based on demographics and social perception. It's still something that can't be "cured" just like normal orientations like gay, straight and bi.
You also seem to think pedophilia=child molestation, which isn't always true. A child molester is a pedophile that acts on his or her desires. Those are not the people I am talking about. I'm talking a simple attraction from people that know full-well they can never act on those desires because it would be wrong.
We don't have to keep this limited to pedophilia by the way. Paraphilia in general works the same way in that it represents an atypical attraction that people may or may not be able to legally act on depending on the category. My intent is not to compare this to gay rights or other LGBT caused because I do not actually believe pedophiles should have the right to act on their urges unless it's in a perfectly legal outlet like whatever the hell Japan is making.
Really, my point is it must suck to be a pedophile or anyone else with urges they cannot fulfill. We can go beyond sexuality with this line of thinking if you want as well.
I'm not sure of the best legal way to watch the anime (I'm sure there is but I just haven't bothered) and I'm more of a manga guy anyway
Crunchyroll. It's perfectly legal.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Pedophiles are wrong for molesting or raping children, they are not wrong for being sexually attracted to them because they didn't chose to be.
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