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So next gen 3rd party games are gonna target a 4TF 1440p baseline and we're ok with this because $299?

Marlenus

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are those TF better or worse than the ones in the nvidia new gpu line?

RDNA was about the same vs Turing in terms of FPS per flop. Due to the dual fp32 layout in Ampere FPS per Tflop is likely to reduce so I would estimate that RDNA2 will have more FPS per Tflop than Ampere.
 

Bogroll

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My son wants one of these instead of the XSX, the only thing that's concerning me is the SSD. I would like it if there was at least a 1TB option for £300.
 

MaestroMike

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My son wants one of these instead of the XSX, the only thing that's concerning me is the SSD. I would like it if there was at least a 1TB option for £300.

lol really? that seems odd he doesn't want the more powerful one
 

Cato

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also, considering what happened this gen where lot of devs still dont bother release proper patch or fix for ps4 pro or x1x version of game, i wonder if it will be same for next gen. some game still waiting for patch until today, near end of generation where such a waste for additional power for those midgen refreshes.

assuming there will be 3 sku for xbox, (lower, base, high) im not suprise if there is situation where one of the iteration is kind of 'left behind' by devs. for example there is patch for xsxx but no proper patch on xss or vice versa.

No, S will not be left behind. S is where the majority of customers will be, so everyone will put the majority of their resources to make sure it will look as good as possible on it.
Just like today, XSX and a future XSSX might or might not get a proper patch to make it better, but these are a small fraction of the market so no one will allocate too much resources on doing that. If it looks better on XSX or XSSX then that is a bonus but focus will always be where 90% of the paying customers are.


You already know what will happen. You wrote it even. Look at what happened in current gen. This is what will happen.
 
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megreotsugua

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4k native is a waste of resources. UE5 is 1440p on PS5 and upscaled to 4K. DF cannot count the pixels at all because the upscaling is so good. They have to be told by Epic that it was rendered at 1440p natively.

Spider-man Miles Morales is 4K in both graphics and performance mode. Why is the performance mode in 4K when Insomaniac can easily bring down the resolution for better frames? Perhaps the graphics mode in the first place is not 4K native but 4K upscaled so there is no point downscaling the resolution for the performance mode.

If PS5 is targeting 1440p natively and upscaled to 4K, developers can bring more graphical flair and focus more on geometry and texture fidelity where it matters.
 
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DemonCleaner

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this thread decerns in two kind of people:

1. poeple who have the slightest idea how game development works

2. people who only think about their wallet and believe they can have a next gen experience without paying for the hardware actually needed to provide that



that would be fine if it didn't influence all customers who don't choose this route. all series X, ps5 and PC gamers should be fucking furious about what microsoft is doing. instead they applaud them. poor mankind.
 

DynamiteCop!

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this thread decerns in two kind of people:

1. poeple who have the slightest idea how game development works

2. people who only think about their wallet and believe they can have a next gen experience without paying for the hardware actually needed to provide that



that would be fine if it didn't influence all customers who don't choose this route. all series X, ps5 and PC gamers should be fucking furious about what microsoft is doing. instead they applaud them. poor mankind.
Why exactly would anyone be furious? The system appears to be perfectly and linearly scaled to the capabilities of the Series X at lower targeted parameters.
 

megreotsugua

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this thread decerns in two kind of people:

1. poeple who have the slightest idea how game development works

2. people who only think about their wallet and believe they can have a next gen experience without paying for the hardware actually needed to provide that



that would be fine if it didn't influence all customers who don't choose this route. all series X, ps5 and PC gamers should be fucking furious about what microsoft is doing. instead they applaud them. poor mankind.

Don't worry. If UE5 demo on PS5 is anything to go by (rendered at 1440p natively, upscaled to 4K), we will see amazing looking next-gen games. Let's just hope more and more 3rd party developers adopt UE5.
 

DemonCleaner

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Why exactly would anyone be furious? The system appears to be perfectly and linearly scaled to the capabilities of the Series X at lower targeted parameters.

it only does if your premise is that all series x games should be native 4K60 baseline (and even than it really doesn't in a lot of aspects like memory). to provide a next gen jump in visuals that really should not be the case. it might be a good idea for crossgen games. but 2 years down the line the clever use of series x would be internal 1440p/60 upscaled with machine learning super sampling to 4K. that would provide enough rendering budget to really enable a next gen jump in visuals and game logic.
 
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As if cross gen focus wasn't bad enough (look what it did to Halo), now we have the "next gen" baseline being 1440p and 4TF. Devs will cater to the lowest common denominator.

Make no mistake about it, games will be held back all gen thanks to Series S.

This just seems like the worst idea in gaming history, NO CAP.

edit: and not just 3rd party. All of MS 1st studio will have this console as the one they build around because it will sell better and games have to run on it. Trash.

You a fully paid-up member of the SONY Defence Force?
 

DemonCleaner

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Don't worry. If UE5 demo on PS5 is anything to go by (rendered at 1440p natively, upscaled to 4K), we will see amazing looking next-gen games. Let's just hope more and more 3rd party developers adopt UE5.


please go back and look at any UE demo of the past 15 years and research how long it did take till we saw what was shown there in games. we won't see that until the end of next gen in multiplattform games.
 

Zoro7

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Sep 15, 2013
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Why exactly would anyone be furious? The system appears to be perfectly and linearly scaled to the capabilities of the Series X at lower targeted parameters.
Seriously, everything this guy says the opposite happens. Im still laughing because he thought MS were generous enough to make Xbox live free. Fun times man.
 
Feb 27, 2013
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As if cross gen focus wasn't bad enough (look what it did to Halo), now we have the "next gen" baseline being 1440p and 4TF. Devs will cater to the lowest common denominator.

Make no mistake about it, games will be held back all gen thanks to Series S.

This just seems like the worst idea in gaming history, NO CAP.

edit: and not just 3rd party. All of MS 1st studio will have this console as the one they build around because it will sell better and games have to run on it. Trash.

Dude, they have literally said graphics of next gen games will be identical between series s and x. the only difference will be resolution. If Series X pushes next gen graphics at 4K, Xbox Series S will do dynamic resolution between 900p-1080p-1440p depending on graphical intensity.
 

Kumomeme

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No, S will not be left behind. S is where the majority of customers will be, so everyone will put the majority of their resources to make sure it will look as good as possible on it.
Just like today, XSX and a future XSSX might or might not get a proper patch to make it better, but these is a small fraction of the market so no one will allocate too much resources on doing that. If it looks better on XSX or XSSX then that is a bonus but focus will always be where 90% of the paying customers are.


You already know what will happen. You wrote it even. Look at what happened in current gen. This is what will happen.
Thats what it should happened. But opposite also could happen. Upscale should be easier than downscale and yet there lot of ps4 pro or x1x game still didnt get proper patch or fix until today. Ps4 pro sold quite well and yet we didnt get bloodborne patch yet for example. Thats what happened to upscale game for stronger console. For downscale game to weaker console should be more challenging. Im not suprise if there is situation that devs end up didnt bother at all, or vice versa towards stronger or weaker version. Be it for xss or xsx we might have situation that one of it could get 'abandoned'.

but who know? we will see how it goes.
 
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Stiflers Mom

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As if cross gen focus wasn't bad enough (look what it did to Halo), now we have the "next gen" baseline being 1440p and 4TF. Devs will cater to the lowest common denominator.
Why should I care if I (and 87 percent of the population) don't have a 4k tv anyway?
4K was always the most stupid idea.

On the 4tf, we will see how it will look like. We still have a better GPU, much better CPU and an SSD..
 

DynamiteCop!

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it only does if your premise is that all series x games should be native 4K60 baseline (and even than it really doesn't in a lot of aspects like memory). to provide a next gen jump in visuals that really should not be the case. it might be a good idea for crossgen games. but 2 years down the line the clever use of series x would be internal 1440p/60 upscaled with machine learning super sampling to 4K. that would provide enough rendering budget to really enable a next gen jump in visuals and game logic.
Well Series X is a sum of 3x, not 4x so already by traditional rendering logic a 4K 60FPS game on Series X would be roughly 2216x1248 on the Series S operating identically otherwise.

The fact of the matter is any method of ML or reconstruction can equally be applied to the Series S, so if something on the Series X is targeting 2560x1440 and reconstructing to 4K the Series S can run this same game graphically identical at 1472x832 and reconstruct to 1440p.

There's no issue here, the hardware meets the demand.
 
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Cato

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thats what it should happened. but opposite also could happen. Upscale should be easier than downscale and yet there lot of ps4 pro or x1x game still didnt get proper patch or fix until today. Ps4 pro sold quite well and yet we didnt get bloodborne patch yet for example. thats upscale. for downscale game to weaker console should be more challenging. Im not suprise if there is situation that devs didnt bother at all.

but who know? we will see how it goes.

True, but there is a much bigger issue with downscaling and why that is unlikely to ever happen. Cost.

Assets is a major cost in the game budget. Creating 4k assets is a lot more expensive than creating 1080 assets.
No one will ever spend the cost of 4k assets just to later downscale it for 90% of the target platforms.
No one that has any budget responsibility will.
So what will happen is that everyone will develop assets for 1080 and 90% of the market and then upscale it to 4k for the tiny "pro" market.

Maybe sometimes the upscaling will look good out of the box and almost like native 4k.
Maybe the upscaling will sometimes not look very good but can be fixed by a lot of costly manual tweaks to look near 4k.
And maybe sometimes upscaling does not look good and there is no budget to do anything about it. Take it or leave it.
But upscaling will never look as good as native 4k.

I really thought more people would realize that there is more to it than "click a slider in the dev sdk and the magic happens."
Halo Infinite is already forgotten?
 
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Phrixotrichus

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Well Series X is a sum of 3x, not 4x so already by traditional rendering logic a 4K 60FPS game on Series X would be roughly 2216x1248 on the Series S operating identically otherwise.

The fact of the matter is any method of ML or reconstruction can equally be applied to the Series S, so if something on the Series X is targeting 2560x1440 and reconstructing to 4K the Series S can run this same game graphically identical at 1472x832 and reconstruct to 1440p.

There's no issue here, the hardware meets the demand.
AMD so far hasn`t had anything that could even remotely compare to DLSS.....and every other available tech produces really poor results when the base material goes below full-hd.
I´d not bet on devs allowing the Series S to go significantly below that line.
 
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Kumomeme

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True, but there is a much bigger issue with downscaling and why that is unlikely to ever happen. Cost.

Assets is a major cost in the game budget. Creating 4k assets is a lot more expensive than creating 1080 assets.
No one will ever spend the cost of 4k assets just to later downscale it for 90% of the target platforms.
No one that has any budget responsibility will.
So what will happen is that everyone will develop assets for 1080 and 90% of the market and then upscale it to 4k for the tiny "pro" market.

Maybe sometimes the upscaling will look good out of the box and almost like native 4k.
Maybe the upscaling will sometimes not look very good but can be fixed by a lot of costly manual tweaks to look near 4k.
And maybe sometimes upscaling does not look good and there is no budget to do anything about it. Take it or leave it.
But upscaling will never look as good as native 4k.

I really thought more people would realize that there is more it than "click a slider in the dev sdk and the magic happens."
Halo Infinite is already forgotten?
Agree. Making asset is one of process that take lot of time and budget. Especially if a game has enourmous asset in it. Most of devs will create at highest quality as possible for future proofing than create it at lower resolution since it would look ugly at higher resolution later or they might end up didnt have higher quality resource for future patch for example. If didnt, the devs has no choice but to recreate everything which is, such a pain in the ass.

this is what i mean before too, that there more to developers than merely playing with graphical sliders. There more to it and yet people think it as simply as lowering or increasing the setting.
 
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Azurro

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I remember when the PS3 with a less hard drive space was called "The retard pack". I'm kind of puzzled why Xbox fans are happy about the S. It has drastically cut down specs, a very small SDD and no disk drive.

I don't get it, is it because they think the price point will help their favorite brand win?
 

kevin_trinh

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Better solution for 3rd pt dev is just ignore the Xbox and make game for PS5 and PC only, then take time to optimze and put it to gamepass later. Everyone happy, xbox gamer happily play after every platform for 6 months to 1 year
 

SDMG

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A developer weighs in on Xbox Series S. Pretty much series S won't be holding Series X back.
 

GymWolf

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I'm more concerned about the cpu being clocked noticeably lower more than gpu or small ssd.
 

Three

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And you're making the assumption that the RDNA 2 GPU in Series S cannot handle general purpose processing. Everything else is highly scalable. The only concern with Series S was the CPU and SSD and it has both. It can do everything PS5 and Series X can do, but at a lower resolution and texture detail. For people who are still using a 1080p TV, this console is perfect and for them will have all the benefits, heck even 4K TV owners will benefit from the extra resolution which will be a native output of 1440p and Machine Learning DLSS type of upscale to 4K which will look glorious. We've seen DLSS native 1080p to 4K and it looks better than native in Control.
Who said I assumed it can't handle it? But if a game wants to use the Series X gpu for some physics based gameplay or GPGPU for AI or something how would this scale down to a GPU with 1/3 the power? The answer is it doesn’t and they won't. It relegates the GPU to res and fps gains only.
 
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Sorc3r3r

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Another very salty, concern thread.
Another fool!
Games are not only graphic.
This shitty policy by MS will cripple games in their whole vision, physic, I.A., complexity, breadth, interactions, quantity, everything should fit this crappy box with Its crappy hardware for a whole generation for all 3rd party games.
This is good for you?
It's not for me.
And you know why they did this?
Cause they don't have any 1st party games that is worth.
They cripple a whole generation to cut Sony out of their strength.
They are trying to cut Sony out to be the high end Nintendo, maybe worth for their exclusives.
Now it remains only a chance that this abomination will be discounted, and crashes and burns like MANY other MS piece of shitty hardware.
One thing remains, as usual, MS confirms to be a disgrace in the videogame industry.
 

John254

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Really. Will this ever end?


XSX Forza 8 (lead platform)
Budget 16ms, 4K60, assets like cars having 1mill. polys, 4K textures, every race with 30x cars fits within the 10GB vram + menu, sounds etc. making good use of 2.4GB/s (SSD), barely any loading times.

XSS Forza 8 (port)
same Budget but at 2K60, but every assets like cars need to be downgraded, only 2K textures, else only 15 cars can be rendered (due less vram). If they went the other path.

Porting over the XSS (lead platform) code, build over to the XSX and call it a day? Same quality-level as on XSS but at 4K60 ... maybe with better textures but every other assets like the cars remain the same as on XSS.

Will any developer make the extra effort, time and spent money on remodelling, replacing "lower grade" assets with HQ ones?

In other words: Craig.gif
Halo 6 would have looked much better, if the lead platform was the XSX and not the Xbone (even though MS states otherwise). If you have more vram, more stuff can fit, or better looking shit can fit.

The lowest common denominator always has, always will hold back the strongest one (see PC discrepancy among the gpus in use, barely anyone buys a 2080ti (they apparently sold poorly compared to the 1000 series, barely anyone plays at 4K on the PC, majority still plays at 2K).

If im wrong, feel free to correct me.
Yes you are wrong.
Since all XGS games will be also on PC, then Turn 10 in Forza 8 needs to create lower res textures because of PC hardware scaling. So they will just pick from those PC presets those which will fit Xbox Series X horsepower and those which will fit Xbox Series S horsepower.

And that's it.
 

Stiflers Mom

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And you know why they did this?
Cause they don't have any 1st party games that is worth.
They cripple a whole generation to cut Sony out of their strength.
They are trying to cut Sony out to be the high end Nintendo, maybe worth for their exclusives.
Sorry, but that's bullshit.

By your logic Sony's first party offerings will even look better then, if the rest of the industry has such a low baseline (which I don't believe it will be). This will make it much more interesting to get a PS5.
 

Zuzu

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Well Series X is a sum of 3x, not 4x so already by traditional rendering logic a 4K 60FPS game on Series X would be roughly 2216x1248 on the Series S operating identically otherwise.

The fact of the matter is any method of ML or reconstruction can equally be applied to the Series S, so if something on the Series X is targeting 2560x1440 and reconstructing to 4K the Series S can run this same game graphically identical at 1472x832 and reconstruct to 1440p.

There's no issue here, the hardware meets the demand.

Or alternatively, for the Series S, they could lower some graphical settings and run the game at 900p and 30fps, instead of reconstructing up to 1440p and running at 60fps. 900p doesn't look too bad on a 1080p TV. But anyway, I agree with you; the Series S shouldn't affect the graphical output of the Series X, even for Series X games that target 1440p.
 

Sorc3r3r

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Sorry, but that's bullshit.

By your logic Sony's first party offerings will even look better then, if the rest of the industry has such a low baseline (which I don't believe it will be). This will make it much more interesting to get a PS5.
No.
PS5 will not be cheap, not cheap enough to be considered worth their exclusives.
It can truly lead Sony to be a high priced Nintendo game box... something that never worked in the game industry.
 

Zuzu

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my concern is at further middle of generation when developers reach 'peak' of console performance, where they start hitting limit with ps5 and xsx, where there games will be 1440p30fps for example. how it will run on xss?

also, assuming later both sony and ms gonna release ps5 pro and xsxx, for ms there will be 3 xbox sku that devs need optimize for which is not easier for smaller devs especially indies since they didnt have resources like larger studio.

on other aspect if 4tf is the 3rd party devs baseline, not just xsx will serve as 'upscalling' machine. ps5 too.

but we will see how it goes.

In the situation where a game is 1440p and 30fps on Series X, we could see the Series S running the same game at 720p or 900p and maybe with some lower settings at 30fps. It should still look pretty good on a 1080p panel.
 

AphexTwunt

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Another fool!
Games are not only graphic.
This shitty policy by MS will cripple games in their whole vision, physic, I.A., complexity, breadth, interactions, quantity, everything should fit this crappy box with Its crappy hardware for a whole generation for all 3rd party games.
This is good for you?
It's not for me.
And you know why they did this?
Cause they don't have any 1st party games that is worth.
They cripple a whole generation to cut Sony out of their strength.
They are trying to cut Sony out to be the high end Nintendo, maybe worth for their exclusives.
Now it remains only a chance that this abomination will be discounted, and crashes and burns like MANY other MS piece of shitty hardware.
One thing remains, as usual, MS confirms to be a disgrace in the videogame industry.

Beautiful.

My favourite hyperbolic meltdown so far, keep 'em coming!
 

Redlancet

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this thread decerns in two kind of people:

1. poeple who have the slightest idea how game development works

2. people who only think about their wallet and believe they can have a next gen experience without paying for the hardware actually needed to provide that



that would be fine if it didn't influence all customers who don't choose this route. all series X, ps5 and PC gamers should be fucking furious about what microsoft is doing. instead they applaud them. poor mankind.
the only people applauding this are the ones who thinks the xbox s price its a weapon on their console war, i have seen a lot of deals this past two years on the xbox x,circa 230 euros and sold like shit,its not only price there is a lot of factors,and if the ps5 all digital its only 100 euros more,this thing its death on the water
 

Sleepwalker

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The PS5 will hold back Sony exclusives in 3-5 years when the PS5 pro is out. I wonder how many threads about how "the baseline is not OK" and "the console has been gimped on arrival!!!!" will we see? Any bets?
 

ZywyPL

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It's interesting to see how the narrative has switched - not so long ago people were bashing Pro and 1X for "wasting power" for 4K, that they could achieve so much more if they stayed on 1080p and use all their power for better graphics instead, well, now there will be Series S which does exactly that, it's way more capable than any current-gen console but still target that low resolutions, hence it will move the baseline dramatically forward thanks to its CPU/GPU/SSD, while the bigger consoles will just elevate that baseline to 4K. Because even if Series S never existed, a lot of PS5/XBX power would have been "wasted" on 4K anyway, it's not like they could've push even better visuals at 4K then they can now if Series S never happened.
 
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UnNamed

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People struggle to understand GPU is almost meaningless when we talk about raw performance. It's all about CPU.

Example, Forza 8:
-run at 4k/60 on XSX.
-run at 1080p/60 on XSS
-run at 1080/30 on XOX since CPU is weaker.

It's the same on Switch, same framerate since CPU clock is the same.

It's also the same on XOX Vs XBO: different resolution, similar framerate since XOX have a slightly better clock. Reduce the resolution help to decrease CPU load, that's why you can choose better resolution or better framerate on XOX. I don't remember any XOX game with better resolution AND better framerate. CPU always matter.

It's very easy.
 

pasterpl

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Another fool!
Games are not only graphic.
This shitty policy by MS will cripple games in their whole vision, physic, I.A., complexity, breadth, interactions, quantity, everything should fit this crappy box with Its crappy hardware for a whole generation for all 3rd party games.
This is good for you?
It's not for me.
And you know why they did this?
Cause they don't have any 1st party games that is worth.
They cripple a whole generation to cut Sony out of their strength.
They are trying to cut Sony out to be the high end Nintendo, maybe worth for their exclusives.
Now it remains only a chance that this abomination will be discounted, and crashes and burns like MANY other MS piece of shitty hardware.
One thing remains, as usual, MS confirms to be a disgrace in the videogame industry.

Same architecture, same cpu, Same IO, similar ram, Same gen of gpu...elements that rely on cpu will be same across both, elements that rely on IO will be same, elements that relay on ram should be same (just scaled down), elements that rely on gpu will be different scaled down), in theory games will be designed in the same way for both and scaled down to xbss (resolution, effects etc.). Game logic/design should not be crippled in any way. With both system so similar, I am more worried that if games Are being made to target ps5 these might not be using all of the xbsex and xbss advantages.
 

Tchu-Espresso

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If you think the XSS is at all respectable, then you must also believe that the PS5 is so close to the XSX that there is no real distinction.
 

megreotsugua

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Because even if Series S never existed, a lot of PS5/XBX power would have been "wasted" on 4K anyway,

That's not true. UE5 demo on PS5 is 1440p native upscaled to 4K. Digital Foundry said they couldn't count the pixels which is a testament to how good the upscaling technique. Epic said it's because of their implementation of TAA. But I have a feeling that due to NDA, Epic didn't spoke about the bespoke upscaler that is in the PS5 and simply said it's their TAA. I could be wrong of course, but I feel like they were hiding something. Until Sony speaks about it, no devs could ever could.
 

Jon Neu

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If you think the XSS is at all respectable, then you must also believe that the PS5 is so close to the XSX that there is no real distinction.

The difference is that the XsS targets a 4 times less resolution while the PS5 and the XsX target 4K.

For it’s purpose, the Series S it’s actually a better machine than the PS5 and the X.
 

Phrixotrichus

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People struggle to understand GPU is almost meaningless when we talk about raw performance. It's all about CPU.

Example, Forza 8:
-run at 4k/60 on XSX.
-run at 1080p/60 on XSS
-run at 1080/30 on XOX since CPU is weaker.

It's the same on Switch, same framerate since CPU clock is the same.

It's also the same on XOX Vs XBO: different resolution, similar framerate since XOX have a slightly better clock. Reduce the resolution help to decrease CPU load, that's why you can choose better resolution or better framerate on XOX. I don't remember any XOX game with better resolution AND better framerate. CPU always matter.

It's very easy.
wow...just wow.
I sincerely hope this is just a really weak attempt to be funny....

The difference is that the XsS targets a 4 times less resolution while the PS5 and the XsX target 4K.
The PC already showed how incredibly unrealistic that 4k render target is with the available performance ....
 
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martino

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Apr 25, 2013
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this thread decerns in two kind of people:

1. poeple who have the slightest idea how game development works

2. people who only think about their wallet and believe they can have a next gen experience without paying for the hardware actually needed to provide that



that would be fine if it didn't influence all customers who don't choose this route. all series X, ps5 and PC gamers should be fucking furious about what microsoft is doing. instead they applaud them. poor mankind.

and your post is only one kind of bad logic: false dilemna.
 
Last edited:
Apr 30, 2018
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If the graphical compromises are just/mostly resolution Im fine with 1440p.

I dont like Microsoft or Xbox, I might add.

Great price.