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[Arment]

You don't lose yourself...

Do you really think the people in Star Trek would use it if that were the case?

Your consciousness remains uninterrupted. In fact, the transportation is in real-time, so it's as if nothing happened, unless something does happen outside of normal procedure.

 

[Mama Robotnik]

You don't lose yourself...

Do you really think the people in Star Trek would use it if that were the case?

Your consciousness remains uninterrupted. In fact, the transportation is in real-time, so it's as if nothing happened, unless something does happen outside of normal procedure.

How would they know? The person who emerges from the transporter has full memories of the man who was just disintergrated.

Every copy would think they were real. They would have a subjective memory of continued consciousness when, in actuallity, they are a new life form created the second the transport cycle finished.

Think about how many times Picard has transported. That's hundreds if not thousands of Picard copies killed, ceasing consciousness as their brains are destroyed. The concept is maddening.

The entire ST galaxy is a cycle of undending disintergration and copies of dead men.

(While we are on the subject - why does transporting not hurt?)

 

[jakershaker]

There's been loads of arguments made, and I don't think even a single one involves dualism or anything metaphysical like that.

Again, the situation created when you teleport is that an object is destroyed - while a perfect blueprint of the object is saved in the computer. The computer then create a new object with the help of this blueprint, an object that is identical to the first one. This is pretty much what scenario two teleportation entails you destroy and analyze an object down to quantum level and then you create an identical object at the end destination with the help of this blueprint. Scientifically speaking, they're not the same object at the same time that they are identical - if you break down the teleportation process then you must realize that.

In my example with the rock I am trying to show you why this is a dilemma that arises out of our use of an very imprecise language, if we use this machine just to analyze the first object without destroying it and then create an identical copy of it - are they both the same object? If we were to name the rock "Peter" and later pulverized one of the rocks - would you say that "Peter" has been destroyed? Or would you while staring at the pulverized remains of the second rock say that "Peter" hasn't been pulverized at all?

You're not really wrong at all to say that Peter hasn't been destroyed even though we just pulverized Peter, because both rocks are peter. And that is what I've been trying to explain, the words we use to denote the rocks, or the person entering and leaving the teleporter, are too "wide" semantically speaking.

When people say that the teleported person is a new person but at the same time is totally identical the only conclusion for me is that they meant that there is something that can't be copied. An essence, a soul or stream of consciousness as someone called it. Something I would call dualism.

And to clarify my thoughts on the rock teleportation(thanks for explaining it):

Break down rock -> Teleport -> Rebuild rock = It's the same rock.
(It isn't destroyed nor are there any pulverized remains. Well this is something that could be discussed but as far as I know this isn't the case in Star Trek.)

Analyze rock -> Make another identical rock = It's 2 identical rocks.
(This is not teleportation. This is replication. You get 2 objects. Doing this with a person would result in 2 identical persons. Body, memories and everything.)

But the discussion really is about if the same person is coming out of a teleporter that goes in. Something that gets messy when everyone has a different take on what a person or what a consciousness is(I guess everyone agrees that it's the same atoms, or identical version of those, that gets put on the other side of the teleport).

My take is that there is no "ghost in the machine" and that the person coming out on the other side for all intents and purposes will be the same that went in. Claiming something else makes the discussion take a metaphysical turn.

 

[Mama Robotnik]

I'm just going to throw this in here:

Riker beams up, the transporter disintergrates him and measures his physical pattern, This data is stored. The transporter then builds Riker from the stored data,

Transporter error of the week #32 happens, and two Rikers materialise.

Who is Riker?

 

[Ferrio]

I'm curious, the people claiming it would be the same person... do they believe in souls or afterlife at all? Maybe I'm not following correctly because the conversation seems to keep going in circles.

I'm in the "There is no such thing as a soul", but believes a teleporter is a glorified suicide/cloning machine.

 

[jakershaker]

I'm just going to throw this in here:

Riker beams up, the transporter disintergrates him and measures his physical pattern, This data is stored. The transporter then builds Riker from the stored data,

Transporter error of the week #32 happens, and two Rikers materialise.

Who is Riker?

Both! But you can never get enough Riker.

 

[McLovin]

I'm just going to throw this in here:

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo80/mappster94/rikers.jpg[IMG]

Riker beams up, the transporter disintergrates him and measures his physical pattern, This data is stored. The transporter then builds Riker from the stored data,

Transporter error of the week #32 happens, and two Rikers materialise.

Who is Riker?[/QUOTE]
You know what always bugged me about this? Why didn't they keep a backup on file whenever they went on dangerous missions? If someone died they could just re-beam them or something :/

 

[Nexus Zero]

Your rock analogy is rubbish. Yes the rock would be objectively the same but if it knew it was alive its experience would end at the moment of teleportation. The rock that comes out at the other end would then continue to experience from the moment of teleportation, only it would mistakenly believe that this was all one experience. Objectively none of its thoughts matter, so yeah, it would be the 'same' rock.

When people say that the teleported person is a new person but at the same time is totally identical the only conclusion for me is that they meant that there is something that can't be copied.

Yes - you cannot copy the 4-dimensional shape of that person. You cut it and then start it somewhere else. This break is what kills the original, or perhaps more precisely, the experience of the original.

Break down rock -> Teleport -> Rebuild rock = It's the same rock.
(It isn't destroyed nor are there any pulverized remains. Well this is something that could be discussed but as far as I know this isn't the case in Star Trek.)

Analyze rock -> Make another identical rock = It's 2 identical rocks.
(This is not teleportation. This is replication. You get 2 objects. Doing this with a person would result in 2 identical persons. Body, memories and everything.)

Nice to reconstitute the example into a strawman but that second example should be:

Break down rock -> Teleport -> Rebuild 2 rocks

Now try.

 

[Arment]

I don't believe in the concept of souls either, but the machine doesn't destroy you. There is no laser beam destroying your body and then using material to recreate you. I think some of you, who are arguing that it kills you, don't realize just how the technology works.

Your body is broken down into energy, that same energy is moved to the planet and then the energy is rematerialized there. In real time. If you don't believe in the concept of a soul, and that your consciousness is merely chemical, then you are the same person. Same consciousness. You aren't a copy.

You were moved, that's it.

 

[Steppenwolf]

Imagine conciousness as a program that runs on a computer (your brain) virtualy. You can't transport that physicaly. You can only transport the machine. The program will restart after the transport but the flow was interrupted. The old conciousness (your soul if you want so) stops to be and is detached from the new one.

 

[Pandaman]

How would they know? The person who emerges from the transporter has full memories of the man who was just disintergrated.

Every copy would think they were real. They would have a subjective memory of continued consciousness when, in actuallity, they are a new life form created the second the transport cycle finished.

according to some episodes, people were conscious while in the matter stream. see: that episode where the eel monster attacked people who were transporting through his subreality or whatever.

Who is Riker?

Both.

 

[Cyan]

It seems to me that a trivial thought experiment makes it pretty clear.

Let's say we've got our two ends to the teleport device, A & B. Somebody walks into A, is destroyed and read into a computer, and is reconstructed at B. This is essentially what the original question is about, right?

Now let's say that some genius discovers a way to copy all of the person's atoms/whatever without destroying the person. The person walks into A, is copied, and an identical copy walks out of B.

Does person A have conscious experience of person B? Do they suddenly start seeing double, experiencing two sets of senses and two thought-streams, etc? Of course not, that would require something metaphysical, a soul or some such.

Sure, person B has the experience of continuity with person A, that is, they believe that they stepped into part A of the device and immediately stepped out of part B. In their subjective experience, they are the original person.

But person A, who originally stepped into A and then back out, is not experiencing what person B is experiencing. Now let's say that the moment they step out of A, someone stabs them through the heart. Or vaporizes them with a laser gun or something. Whatever, point is they're dead, and their consciousness ends.

Did person A, in their subjective experience, walk into and out of A and then die? Or did they walk into A and out of B, and keep on living?

Seems pretty clear to me it's the former.

Now move that death back just a little bit, such that it coincides with person B stepping out of point B. Does moving the death back a few seconds change things? I don't see why it should.

If I'm going wrong somewhere, feel free to jump on it.

 

[Shanadeus]

When people say that the teleported person is a new person but at the same time is totally identical the only conclusion for me is that they meant that there is something that can't be copied. An essence, a soul or stream of consciousness as someone called it. Something I would call dualism.

I think it has more to do with the fact that the second scenariou teleport in the OP leads to the logical conclusion that the person entering the teleporter dies (as it's matter is deconstructed) and the relative position of everything that make it up down to a quantum level is stored in the computer. This pattern is then used to create a person based on this blueprint, a person that will be identical to the person that stepped into the machine, yet it will be a new person whose objective existence in spacetime only started the moment it was created. Its subjective existence is that it's lived ever since it's own memories says it was born, but this has nothing to do with the subjective existence of the person that entered the machine - and was in every sense of the word destroyed.

Break down rock -> Teleport -> Rebuild rock = It's the same rock.
(It isn't destroyed nor are there any pulverized remains. Well this is something that could be discussed but as far as I know this isn't the case in Star Trek.)

Analyze rock -> Make another identical rock = It's 2 identical rocks.
(This is not teleportation. This is replication. You get 2 objects. Doing this with a person would result in 2 identical persons. Body, memories and everything.)

In star trek it wouldn't quite be the same no, but in the other scenario would follow the exactly same principles as when you create two items out of one source. You first analyze A at point a, you store a blueprint of it in a computer and possibly destroy A in the process depending on what you're aiming for. The blueprint is then used to assemble B at point b. Now if I put it like that it sounds like the only difference between copying and teleportation is that I destroy A at point a. If A wasn't destroyed you wouldn't say that A and B were literally the same, for all intents and purposes as they'd be two separate entities which while qualitatively are identical, aren't numerically identical. But when you destroy A and later create B, you suddenly feel that A hasn't been destroyed?

But the discussion really is about if the same person is coming out of a teleporter that goes in. Something that gets messy when everyone has a different take on what a person or what a consciousness is(I guess everyone agrees that it's the same atoms, or identical version of those, that gets put on the other side of the teleport).

My take is that there is no "ghost in the machine" and that the person coming out on the other side for all intents and purposes will be the same that went in. Claiming something else makes the discussion take a metaphysical turn.

The discussion is really about if you personally would do it, if my mother or brother or fiance entered a teleporter I'd feel exactly the same towards the copy that'd leave the teleporting end. But I, who is A, wouldn't personally feel a single thing if I entered a teleporter - I'd be dead while B would live on.

Which is just something I don't prefer over not entering the machine, and dying to it to begin with.

EDIT: Looks like you thought up about the same thing Cyan :lol

 

[Ferrio]

I don't believe in the concept of souls either, but the machine doesn't destroy you. There is no laser beam destroying your body and then using material to recreate you. I think some of you, who are arguing that it kills you, don't realize just how the technology works.

Your body is broken down into energy, that same energy is moved to the planet and then the energy is rematerialized there. In real time. If you don't believe in the concept of a soul, and that your consciousness is merely chemical, then you are the same person. Same consciousness. You aren't a copy.

You were moved, that's it.

But you're also making the assumption that a human can survive being turned into energy. As soon as you break the consciousness then I'd argue it's no longer the same person.

 

[J-Rod]

If the original isn't destroyed, there is no reason or way to think both would share the same consciousness, no matter how you happen to define it, so it is better to assume one is ending and another replacing. You don't have to invoke the metaphysical to understand that.

If you must say it is "exact" copy in every way, then it's really not the same type of teleportation described here. In that case, you could bring the idea of souls and any other ingredients you can think of into the picture and it would make no difference, because you're saying everything is the same no matter what. That's more like staright ressurection or true teleportation than the copy-destroy-recreate method.

 

[Nexus Zero]

You were moved, that's it.

This isn't how teleportation actually works in real life though I appreciate that wasn't the original topic. Apart from in the new Star Trek is there an example of the teleporter breaking light speed?

 

[Arment]

But you're also making the assumption that a human can survive being turned into energy. As soon as you break the consciousness then I'd argue it's no longer the same person.

Well I think everyone here is making a lot of assumptions. It's hard to talk about something like this without really doing so. Also, on that same line of thinking, then falling asleep would qualify for your level of not being the 'same person'.

I'm basically appealing to the fact that the people in the world of Star Trek are obviously smart people. I think they know what's going on. And I don't think they would use a technology like this unless they were sure of their ability to keep the original consciousness intact.

 

[Ferrio]

Well I think everyone here is making a lot of assumptions. It's hard to talk about something like this without really doing so.

I'm basically appealing to the fact that the people in the world of Star Trek are obviously smart people. I think they know what's going on. And I don't think they would use a technology like this unless they were sure of their ability to keep the original consciousness intact.

Well if we're basing our decision entirely on fiction and fake science then sure no problem I'd teleport.

 

[Angry Grimace]

You don't lose yourself...

Do you really think the people in Star Trek would use it if that were the case?

Your consciousness remains uninterrupted. In fact, the transportation is in real-time, so it's as if nothing happened, unless something does happen outside of normal procedure.

But that's the point; there's no way you'd know because from the clone's perspective, nothing's changed.

 

[Shanadeus]

Well I think everyone here is making a lot of assumptions. It's hard to talk about something like this without really doing so. Also, on that same line of thinking, then falling asleep would qualify for your level of not being the 'same person'.

I'm basically appealing to the fact that the people in the world of Star Trek are obviously smart people. I think they know what's going on. And I don't think they would use a technology like this unless they were sure of their ability to keep the original consciousness intact.

I'm pretty sure the intelligence of a star federation officier is determined by the writers of Star Trek, and they probably didn't have a year long philosophical debate on the nature of identity and existence before writing in the teleportation device - it was out of practicality.
They then just turned it into a favorable teleportation that doesn't mean destruction.

But that's the point; there's no way you'd know because from the clone's perspective, nothing's changed.

Except, you know right now - and it's up to you to enter it or not.

 

[Mama Robotnik]

I'm basically appealing to the fact that the people in the world of Star Trek are obviously smart people. I think they know what's going on. And I don't think they would use a technology like this unless they were sure of their ability to keep the original consciousness intact.

The Federation were confronted with evidence that their Warp Engines were destroying the fabric of the universe. The concept was so madenning and inconvenient, they tried to pretend it wasn't happening and dismiss the evidence as flawed when it wasn't. By the end of the episode, it took a lady killing herself to prove her theories correct and force the Federation to face up to the fact that they were wrong.

The Federation has proven it will ignore horrors that question their existence/their way of doing things. They are smart only to a degree.

 

[samus i am]

Being converted to energy and rebuilt at another destination is not suicide at all.


Edit: If I remember correctly there were a few TNG episodes were they carried on conversations with each other while being transported. How do those that believe you are dead explain that?

 

[Zenith]

Being converted to energy and rebuilt at another destination is not suicide at all.


Edit: If I remember correctly there were a few TNG episodes were they carried on conversations with each other while being transported. How do those that believe you are dead explain that?

*sigh* you really don't understand the concept do you. right over your head.

 

[Mama Robotnik]

Being converted to energy and rebuilt at another destination is not suicide at all.

Energy doesn't have memory, its energy.

Your brain has been destroyed as your flesh is disintergrated into energy. All consciousness ceases. To emphasise, the brain is completely destroyed.

The energy (which retains no memory or affiliation, its just energy) from the matter->energy conversion is transmitted to another location. It is converted into matter to form an exact copy of the disintergrated flesh, based on computer-stored physical pattern scan data.

The copy begins its existence with the copied memories of the original, and in their copied brain is a consciousness that is not a continuation of the destroyed one.

Suicide may be the wrong word, as most transportees will probably not consider that the machine will kill them. Its more of an instant-death machine rather than a suicide machine.

 

[Mashing]

Every time I see Barclay I can't help but be reminded of that horrible de-evolving episode.

 

[MDR1750]

simple answer for me:

lets say, hypothetically, that the way the world works (and that we don't realize) is that my existance ceases when i go to bed and a copy is born the next day with all my memories. as it stands today the only place you'd ever hear a discussion on that topic would be in intro philosophy classes and internet boards.

If teleporting was similar to that kind of scenario I'd absolutely use it.

Spoiler

clarification: if teleporting did end your existance but no one really thought too much about it and only considered it a philosophical debate I'd do it.

 

[Ducarmel]

nvm I had it backwards.

 

[Pandaman]

The Federation were confronted with evidence that their Warp Engines were destroying the fabric of the universe. The concept was so madenning and inconvenient, they tried to pretend it wasn't happening and dismiss the evidence as flawed when it wasn't. By the end of the episode, it took a lady killing herself to prove her theories correct and force the Federation to face up to the fact that they were wrong.

The Federation has proven it will ignore horrors that question their existence/their way of doing things. They are smart only to a degree.

i cant blame you for not watch enterprise, but they address the crews discomfort with transporters as they were first introduced to the ship over many episodes.

 

[Link Man]

You know who needs to be brought into this discussion?

 

[Mama Robotnik]

You know who needs to be brought into this discussion?

Probably more fitting for the thread.

Seriously, with all the debate, where does this poor

Spoiler

executed

bastard fit in?

 

[Big One]

I'm curious, the people claiming it would be the same person... do they believe in souls or afterlife at all? Maybe I'm not following correctly because the conversation seems to keep going in circles.

I'm in the "There is no such thing as a soul", but believes a teleporter is a glorified suicide/cloning machine.

Yeah I'm not sure I get what people are arguing either. There's a few people who are fine with dying because "it doesn't matter" in this thread but quite a few people are asking, "If you're religious why would this be a problem?"

And speaking from an atheistic, non-religous perspective, this is quite an offensive assumption, because if someone really feels like this doesn't matter and you would "still be the same" then that's implying that the conscious and mind itself of the transported person is on a supernatural or (perhaps) ethereal level. This is really perfect irony to the situation, considering how realist these arguments are trying to be yet it implies that the materialized person on the other side will still be the same person. Either that, or they have no perspective of their own and don't believe they have a mind or conscious which is completely ludicrous.

However, to my understanding, our physical matter does decompose and change into new matter in time, so maybe it wouldn't be much of a problem as it seems. I mean it's quite obvious that we aren't consciously dying over and over again as our gray matter decomposes and grows.

 

[Ding]

Anybody know the name of that short story that explored this age-old question? At some point the story was made into a "Twilight Zone" episode. Or was it "Outer Limits"? In either event, it was one of the new remakes of the show. Made in the.... 80s, perhaps?

Anyway, the plot went something like this:

The main protagonist dude is at some sort of space base, his 6-month tour of duty is over, and he is going to be "transported" back home to Earth today. Yay! (Hey, the recent movie: "Moon" has a kinda similar beginning.)

They strap him down. The countdown starts... 3, 2, 1, energiz---no, wait! Alarms go off.

"Okay, transport aborted. Earth, what the hell is going on down there"?

"Uh, bit of a problem with the gear. We'll get back to you."

So, the hero goes off and gets something to eat. He's just waiting around for them to get the transporter fixed. Then, people start acting weird to him. Whispering into telephones. Staring at him.

Turns out that "he" materialized down on Earth just fine. Right now, "he" is down there hugging his daughter and catching up with his wife.

His employer has a procedure for this sort of accident, which has happened before: Kill the original guy. Usually, they inject them with something before letting him out of the machine, but this time they didn't realize what had happened right away. So, they end up chasing him around the station for a bit, before chucking him out an airlock or something. Very messy.​

The copy down on Earth has a lovely life ahead of him, no doubt. So, I guess the guy on the space station isn't really dead, right?

Right?

 

[Ferrio]

Anybody know the name of that short story that explored this age-old question? At some point the story was made into a "Twilight Zone" episode. Or was it "Outer Limits"? In either event, it was one of the new remakes of the show. Made in the.... 80s, perhaps?

The copy down on Earth has a lovely life ahead of him, no doubt. So, I guess the guy on the space station isn't really dead, right?

Right?

I remember seeing that episode, but it was a woman.

 

[samus i am]

*sigh* you really don't understand the concept do you. right over your head.

Dude I get it. "Being turned into particles means you're dead!"

I say when they put you back together on the other end, what does it matter? I was in my living room in DC two seconds ago and now I'm in Paris. Sounds like a good deal to me.

 

[Ferrio]

Here's the episode (I think can't check)

http://www.hulu.com/watch/69830/outer-limits-think-like-a-dinosaur

 

[Cyan]

Anybody know the name of that short story that explored this age-old question? At some point the story was made into a "Twilight Zone" episode. Or was it "Outer Limits"? In either event, it was one of the new remakes of the show. Made in the.... 80s, perhaps?

Anyway, the plot went something like this:

Well, shit.

So much for my so-clever idea for the creative writing thread. Bah.

...

Oh what the hell, I'll do it anyway.

 

[dojokun]

Dude I get it. "Being turned into particles means you're dead!"

I say when they put you back together on the other end, what does it matter? I was in my living room in DC two seconds ago and now I'm in Paris. Sounds like a good deal to me.

The idea is that it's more like "I was in my living room in DC two seconds ago and now I'm dead, while someone who looks, talks, and thinks like me was created in Paris. Sounds like a good deal to the other guy who was just created."

 

[DrForester]

I'm just going to throw this in here:

Know who benefited from Transporters?

 

[McLovin]

I don't believe in the concept of souls either, but the machine doesn't destroy you. There is no laser beam destroying your body and then using material to recreate you. I think some of you, who are arguing that it kills you, don't realize just how the technology works.

Your body is broken down into energy, that same energy is moved to the planet and then the energy is rematerialized there. In real time. If you don't believe in the concept of a soul, and that your consciousness is merely chemical, then you are the same person. Same consciousness. You aren't a copy.

You were moved, that's it.

Do you know how data is transmitted? The information getting transmitted is not you. Its infomation that the receiver can interpreat to make the copy. You would cease to exist and a copy somewhere else would have your memories. To everyone else it worked, but to you.. the person who step into the transporter.. your dead.

 

[JBuccCP]

I would let them make a copy of me and have him do whatever he was sent to do, then explode him with some photon beams. Hehehe sucker.

 

[samus i am]

The idea is that it's more like "I was in my living room in DC two seconds ago and now I'm dead, while someone who looks, talks, and thinks like me was created in Paris. Sounds like a good deal to the other guy who was just created."

Oh Jesus people. One last time:

In TOS the transporter tech was still new and was not perfected. I would have had some concerns about it at first, but if it's good enough for Kirk than it's good enough for me.

Second, the thing that happened to Riker was a one in a million fluke. The technology was 100% safe at that point.

Third the episode of Voyager with Tuvix was stupid and an obvious rip off of the fly plus the TNG episode with Riker.

All in all if you are a true Star Trek fan and Picard asks you to join the away team, the only thing that should stop you from going is if you have a red shirt, not the transporter.

 

[McLovin]

Oh Jesus people. One last time:

In TOS the transporter tech was still new and was not perfected. I would have had some concerns about it at first, but if it's good enough for Kirk than it's good enough for me.

Second, the thing that happened to Riker was a one in a million fluke. The technology was 100% safe at that point.

Third the episode of Voyager with Tuvix was stupid and an obvious rip off of the fly plus the TNG episode with Riker.

All in all if you are a true Star Trek fan and Picard asks you to join the away team, the only thing that should stop you from going is if you have a red shirt, not the transporter.

By it being a one in a million fluke and being 100% safe that means that YOU DIE 100% OF THE TIME!


































:lol

 

[Arment]

Do you know how data is transmitted? The information getting transmitted is not you. Its infomation that the receiver can interpreat to make the copy. You would cease to exist and a copy somewhere else would have your memories. To everyone else it worked, but to you.. the person who step into the transporter.. your dead.

Says you.

Sure for a while I physically cease to exist, but I am reintegrated at one point. As long as I am 100% chemically identical, I am the same person with the same thoughts and consciousness. Remember, transportation happens in real time. I can be thinking about pot roast the whole time I'm being transported and never lose that thought.

 

[McLovin]

What you guys don't get is that what is being sent is assuming A B and C are atoms in the body
A - 0001101001
B - 1100101101
C - 0010101001

the receiver gets
0001101001
1100101101
0010101001
and make A B and C on the other end. Thats how data trasmission works more or less. Thats how the transporter is making the copy.
The guy on the other end is some corbon copy with your memories.
edit- Its someone else with a copy of your conciousness. Yes the copy will 100% think it worked. But the original is gone forever.

 

[Shanadeus]

Says you.

Sure for a while I physically cease to exist, but I am reintegrated at one point. As long as I am 100% chemically identical, I am the same person with the same thoughts and consciousness. Remember, transportation happens in real time. I can be thinking about pot roast the whole time I'm being transported and never lose that thought.

Except... you would lose that thought. There'd just be a copy created on the other side thinking this very thing "lalala oh it seems I have arrived, and I was thinking of pot roast the whole time without losing that thought".

 

[samus i am]

By it being a one in a million fluke and being 100% safe that means that YOU DIE 100% OF THE TIME!

:lol

I CANT TAKE THIS! NERD RAGGGGEEEEEEE!!!!!!

 

[Cyan]

When did this turn from a philosophical discussion into an argument about Star Trek handwavy tech canon?

Or maybe I've got it all backwards. :lol

 

[ckohler]

I'm just going to throw this in here:

Riker beams up, the transporter disintergrates him and measures his physical pattern, This data is stored. The transporter then builds Riker from the stored data,

Transporter error of the week #32 happens, and two Rikers materialise.

Who is Riker?

I already answered this in post #97. Actually, I'm surprised you didn't know this being so well versed in TNG. The transporters don't just store you as data. They store you as a long string of molecules in a pattern known as a "matter stream". The second Riker's matter came from some weird alien cloud. The only thing bizarre about this episode is why Star Fleet didn't return to the planet more often and try to recreate the duplication fluke.

You know what always bugged me about this? Why didn't they keep a backup on file whenever they went on dangerous missions? If someone died they could just re-beam them or something :/

For the fifth time, transporters don't make you out of raw materials. They use your original molecules and reconstruct you. Furthermore, they can't store your pattern for more than several minutes before it degrades because it's simply too much data and material to keep suspended in that state. Granted, Scotty did pull it off in one episode of TNG but I think that whole idea was a kinda cop-out just to get him to appear in the show.

 

[samus i am]

What you guys don't get is that what is being sent is assuming A B and C are atoms in the body
A
B
C

the receiver gets



and make A B and C on the other end. Thats how data trasmission works more or less. Thats how the transporter is making the copy.
The guy on the other end is some corbon copy with your memories.
edit- Its someone else with a copy of your conciousness. Yes the copy will 100% think it worked. But the original is gone forever.

You are well versed in 21st century technology but we are not talking about the same thing. It is not the same thing as copying a MP3. The technology to do this is way more advanced. Is it too hard to make a leap of faith that these people are not committing suicide?


Edit: ckohler is doing a way better job at explaining this than me but my question still stands.

 

[LogicStep]

In Star Trek canon, Argument 1 was early transporter tech. Argument 2 is what transporters eventually became from TOS forward. People shouldn't have an issue with the later version.

See, if we go by what this guy is saying, then I would use one of the later ones. But if it's one of the early ones where you actually DIE and it's a clone that keeps on going, fuck that who the hell wants to up and die like that.