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[Agent Icebeezy]

I've never understood how the GBA still does so well when the DS plays GBA games. Maybe the customer doesn't know that. I'm not going to assume that they are that dumb, but the great sales of the GBA does seem odd to me

 

[Striek]

I've never understood how the GBA still does so well when the DS plays GBA games. Maybe the customer doesn't know that. I'm not going to assume that they are that dumb, but the great sales of the GBA does seem odd to me

Well, Nintendo hasn't advertised the GBA aspect very well, but price is probably the major factor. GBA is a very inexpensive way to entertain your kids.

 

[ioi]

IMO, thats some stupid reasoning. The PSP sales weren't falling as much as they were stabilising. The DS had many big hits, a pricedrop and enticing bundles, and still fails to convincingly outsell the PSP. PSP sales softened due to losing launch momentum primarily - thats not to say compelling software wouldn't have helped it but its certainly hasn't fallen off a cliff like the DS did. You're making very big assumptions on very sketchy evidence. DS has had what, 3-4 months on the upside now after selling like shit and suddenly its flourishing and PSP is in trouble?

Don't get me wrong, I see a very healthy future for both consoles in the US. I think it's by far the weakest market for the DS so far where it is actually tracking behind Gamecube in the same 13 months from GCs launch. DS did hit rock bottom with only 57k for a month and some poor software sales.

PSP launched well also and has been able to maintain a good momentum through the year, although has continued to drop significantly from month to month and even the release of big killer software hasn't done much to change matters. Looking at both systems in the US, you would have to say that on paper PSP has much stronger software so far.

An original GTA- sells 5m + on PS2 last 3 versions, big out the gates
Madden- sells 3m+ on PS2 another 2-3m on other formats each year, big out the gates
Need For Speed- sells 2m+ on PS2, another 2-3m on other formats each year, big xmas seller

And some well-recieved games like Luminies, Ridge Racers, Metal Gear Acid.

DS so far has had:
Mario 64- About a 2 million seller by past experience, long legs and slow start
Wario Ware- sold about 250k on GBA at best
Nintengdogs- brand new game where you rear puppies, wtf??
Mario Kart DS- big game, slow start long legs, sell well in bundles.

So basically Mario 64 DS + Mario Kart DS vs GTA, Madden, Need for Speed

On paper PSP has much bigger games on past performance in the US. It's cool, sleek, gadgety, multi-media so very appealing to Western market and high price point to match the technology.

On paper PSP was gonna destroy the DS, but it's the DS that is gaining momentum at the moment with Nintendogs (and even more so in Europe- you must think that it will catch on to the same proportions in the USA as well) and we all know DS is murdering PSP in Japan this xmas (300k vs 85k last week) and the point is that DS has many of it's big games still to come!!

Pokemon, Mario Bros, Zeldas, Donkey Kongs, Animal Crossing, Mario & Luigi 2 and who knows what kind of impact Brain Training and the other big games from Japan are going to make? Everyone thought Nintendogs was only for the quirky Japanese like Pokemon but certainly Nintendogs is looking to be more popular in the west than Japan.

I'm not saying either are doomed, I don't really care that much which one sells more, I'm sure PSP has some aces up it's sleeve for the future and will sell well on brand name, technology (although I'd rather have an iPod) and image if nothing else.

But I think it's pretty clear from the facts so far that the DS is really hitting it's stride at the moment and with more and more and more big games to come and lots more innovation to be seen from western developers (who may start trying something different than the usual GBA movie licences, platform games and crap versions of madden and so on) whereas the PSP seems to be struggling by comparison as most of it's supposed big games are out and most have struggled sales-wise.

 

[ioi]

*only read up to page 4*

Everyone seems to be forgetting that GBA exists. It keeps on selling more than DS and PSP combined in this country, unlike the other regions of the world. When these potential GBA buyers and GBA owners look for a new handheld, what are they going to get? The more expensive PSP (even with a price drop), or the one with the familiar name, familiar games, AND backwards compatibility?

Nintendo DS is managing to stay neck and neck with PSP in the US, with one hand tied behind its back. GBA is still gobbling up lots of potential DS sales. When GBA owners enter next gen in droves (hello, Pokemon), the DS is going to see an absolutely enormous surge. If the PSP is down to 150-200 dollars, DS will be 99 dollars, with Pokemon and an enormous line of GBA owners looking to trade up. Oh, and it's also got a new Mario, Zelda, a few Final Fantasies, Metroid, etc. etc. etc. The DS has far from blown its wad. If anything, it's still in the foreplay stage.

And as DS extends its lead over PSP in the East, I think you're going to see Japanese support of the PSP decline. Higher production costs for a lower userbase with a worse attach rate? Japanase devs are going to look at PSP the way they look at XBox: that high-tech thing the Americans like to play.

Personally, I don't care if PSP dies. I just want it to stay the underdog, because if PSP overtakes DS in marketshare, it will mean the end of the 2D gaming bliss that has been kept alive by GBA. DS has a great balance of 2D and 3D gameplay, and I'm perfectly happy staying in the 30 dollar, old school, "gaming ghetto."

second best post of the thread so far after NWO's...

I think this is why so many "Nintendo fanboys" flock to support the DS. It's the purest version yet of Nintendo's vision that games are what sells hardware. They have again pushed aside the idea of making a full multi-media device with expensive bits and made an innovative, pure gaming machine that is cheap to develop for.

If we continue to get fantastic and innovative games through DS and also Revolution then this will make me happy. It would be a very very sad day if Sony ruled the world. Nintendo are really trying to do something great with their latest strategy (you have to applaud Iwata) and make games that have mass appeal based on the merit of the game and not flashy graphics, FMV intros and the rest of it.

I am incredibly excited about the new controller. The touch screen on DS doesn't work for every game, but my god you wouldn't be able to have the fun you have with Nintendogs, Wario Ware Touched or Brain Training without it!! I think it's gone past the gimmicky stage now and companies are starting to appreciate it as a means for creating brand new innovative games.

My game of the year is Resident Evil 4, despite being the latest sequel to a long franchise it changed the game mechanics so much (almost Zelda-like) that it's virtually a new game. I'm sick of sequels and to me companies are getting incredibly lazy with endless sequels that are the same as the last one, movie spinoffs and I for one am happy for the future of gaming that the DS is doing so well and we all love it when the "underdog" is winning...

 

[marc^o^]

who knows what kind of impact Brain Training and the other big games from Japan are going to make?

More so than Nintendogs, Brain Training is the reason why DS sales skyrocketed in Japan. I expect it to have the same impact in US/Europe. When is it released in these regions?

 

[AdmiralViscen]

second best post of the thread so far after NWO's...

I'm wise beyond my Junior rank.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Personally, I don't care if PSP dies. I just want it to stay the underdog, because if PSP overtakes DS in marketshare, it will mean the end of the 2D gaming bliss that has been kept alive by GBA. DS has a great balance of 2D and 3D gameplay, and I'm perfectly happy staying in the 30 dollar, old school, "gaming ghetto."

2D gamings on its way out whether the PSP stays around or not.

 

[AdmiralViscen]

2D gamings on its way out whether the PSP stays around or not.

Yea, but if PSP stays around 30% market share, then I'll get another 2 or 3 years of it.

And if the whole "spend more on handhelds than you do on consoles" thing falls through, then I can at least keep paying 30-40 bucks for my handheld games, instead of 40-50(-60??) like I do on consoles. Lower tech, lower production costs, lower prices. That's what handheld gaming has been since its inception. Sony can go ahead and carve its own niche, just leave my ghetto alone.

I would also expect that with Nintendo's current handheld development structure, even a Game Boy Cube would still have its share of 2D games. More than the PS2-derived PSP dev community.

 

[ioi]

2D gamings on its way out whether the PSP stays around or not.

I want games. 2D games, games that are fun and different. The more Wario Wares, 2D Fire Emblems, Brain Trainings and fewer WWE Smackdowns, Tony Hawks, Need for Speeds that we get the happier I'll be.

I want to pay 100 quid for a system and 20-30 for games (or even less) not 250 and 40-50 for games just so I can have snazzy graphics and play movies and if DS doing well ensures that then let's hope DS continues to do very well...

 

[Striek]

On paper PSP was gonna destroy the DS.

According to people without real-word market expectations, aka internet fans and some reporters. Seriously, I don't think anyone would've reasonably assumed that a $250 handheld was going to 'destroy' or even beat a $150 (and now less) market leader offering. The hype of course went overboard, but in all honesty this situation as-is is nothing short of excellent for Sony.

Other points, PSP software is selling fantastically well in the US, GTA, Madden and NFS have enjoyed great sales (Madden and NFS of course available on DS, albeit crap, sales reflected this). I don't know where that came from. I think software sales for DS titles are predictable, shit third-party sales with great first-party sales for the most part. Nintendogs came out of nowhere, and after playing it, I really don't get it. Its definitely no Pokemon (which, apart from the childish theme are actually great games with depth). But thats a win for Nintendo.

Third-party offering have been standard-fare on DS, and really the majority could've been GBA games for all the difference they made. Maybe this will change next year, but I'm sure publishers are looking at the PSP software sales vs. DS software sales and won't be in any hurry to prioritise DS.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I would also expect that with Nintendo's current handheld development structure, even a Game Boy Cube would still have its share of 2D games. More than the PS2-derived PSP dev community.

Even with Nintendo handhelds you're seeing 2D games less and less now that they have a handheld that can product proper 3D graphics. If the next step is GC level graphics on a handheld that'll knock out even more 2D games.

 

[AdmiralViscen]

Even with Nintendo handhelds you're seeing 2D games less and less now that they have a handheld that can product proper 3D graphics. If the next step is GC level graphics on a handheld that'll knock out even more 2D games.

So they'll cancel plans for Advance Wars 3 and instead make a Battalion Wars 2?

Dozens of primarily-handheld devs are unfamiliar with big-budget 3D gaming. They'll stick to what they're good at.

Again, if DS stays strong, we won't leave the ghetto for a long time, and this won't be an issue. Sony wants me to say goodbye today. I want 3 more years.

 

[Striek]

So they'll cancel plans for Advance Wars 3 and instead make a Battalion Wars 2?

Dozens of primarily-handheld devs are unfamiliar with big-budget 3D gaming. They'll stick to what they're good at.

Again, if DS stays strong, we won't leave the ghetto for a long time, and this won't be an issue.

Thats optimistic. I mean, consoles have stayed strong but they left 2D behind along time ago. First we had pure 2D consoles (NES/SNES). Along came the first 3D consoles (PSX/N64), alot of 3D titles mixed with a fairly hefty dose of 2D titles. Then came refined 3D (current), next to no 2D. Seems familiar. GB/GBA -> DS -> NextGB? Methinks so.

 

[SolidSnakex]

So they'll cancel plans for Advance Wars 3 and instead make a Battalion Wars 2?

Isn't Battalion Wars completely different from AW? It's perfectly possible to make 3D strategy games.

I'm not saying that in the next gen of handhelds that 2D will be completely gone. But its not going to be as prominent as it is in the current gen, for the reasons Striek posted. Its just the evolution of hardware.

 

[Mook1e]

PSP 2D (and 2.5D) games are looking awesome.
Why not have the best of both worlds?

 

[Hero]

2D gaming dying on the DS? Apparently Advance Wars, Castlevania, Princess Peach, New Super Mario Bros, Pokemon, Meteos, Viewtiful Joe, etc aren't counted? 2D is fine, stop making up such drivel.

And as for the 'nobody said PSP would destroy DS' before the launch, pick up any American gaming magazine and they hail the PSP as the second coming of Christ. Everybody was convinced it would retail for 200 dollars and have GTA at launch. Ridiculous.

Here's what my overall stance/point is:

What is in the future (2006) lineup for the PSP that will help sell the system?

I mean, really, most of the top tier PS2 franchises are already out on the PSP, what else could help it at this point? It's going to have to be a new, original game made specifically for the PSP.

The PSP in most of the territories is playing catch up to the DS, and that's with the PSP having used some of their big guns. If the DS is outselling it already, the gap will only widen when Mario Bros, Pokemon, Final Fantasy, and Zelda come out. Heck, Animal Crossing in Japan did half a million units in two weeks. 300K sales of the DS in one week. I can't wait to see the Japanese sales until the new year starts.

 

[ioi]

According to people without real-word market expectations, aka internet fans and some reporters. Seriously, I don't think anyone would've reasonably assumed that a $250 handheld was going to 'destroy' or even beat a $150 (and now less) market leader offering. The hype of course went overboard, but in all honesty this situation as-is is nothing short of excellent for Sony.

Why do we always have the "but it's 250 not 150" discussion. You also get a lot more for 250 you get your movie playback and better graphics. The price is an integral part of the handheld, both are appealing to very different audiences. It's not like they are exactly the same piece of kit with two completely different prices so I think the price argument is largely redundant.

Other points, PSP software is selling fantastically well in the US, GTA, Madden and NFS have enjoyed great sales (Madden and NFS of course available on DS, albeit crap, sales reflected this). I don't know where that came from. I think software sales for DS titles are predictable, shit third-party sales with great first-party sales for the most part. Nintendogs came out of nowhere, and after playing it, I really don't get it. Its definitely no Pokemon (which, apart from the childish theme are actually great games with depth). But thats a win for Nintendo.

I wouldn't say PSP software is selling that fantastically well in the USA considering the titles we have had so far. Madden and NFS won't sell well on the DS, they never sold well on GBA or GC so why would this be any different? Although multi-format they are really Playstation aimed games. We obviously have to take into account the userbase, but go back to the end of 2001 on PS2 (about 14-15 months after launch), PS2 had sold around 7.3 million in the USA and had games that had sold numbers like:

GTA 3 in the last 3 months:

Oct 01 247
Nov 01 447
Dec 01 1,113

Total 1.8 million and GTA3 really pushed PS2 hardware (900k in Nov, 1.95m in Dec).

But also MGS2 on 1.24m, Gran Turismo 3 on 1.2 million (plus about another 600k bundle), Final Fantasy X on 800k, Madden 2002 on around 1.6m

All this just over a year from launch.

PSP on the other hand has done 2.5 million in 8 months and software looks like:

Need Speed: UND Rivals 380,682
GTA: Liberty City Stories 366,581
Madden NFL 06 207,689

Madden is a failure, GTA may do another 300-400k in December and should do a million but hardly GTA3 is it and even the latest Need for Speed only limped to 39k in Nov.

I'd say PSP has been solid but far from spectacular in any way.

DS has been disappointing in the US, but great everywhere else and things are looking up...

Third-party offering have been standard-fare on DS, and really the majority could've been GBA games for all the difference they made. Maybe this will change next year, but I'm sure publishers are looking at the PSP software sales vs. DS software sales and won't be in any hurry to prioritise DS.

Well this is certainly not the case in Japan. I agree that PSP will get strong and probably much stronger 3rd party support in the US but the point that has been made about the GBA holds true that when people start shifting from GBA to DS as they will then the Harry Potters, Spongebobs, Namco Museums and so on that sell so well on GBA should transfer over to DS.

 

[Striek]

2D gaming dying on the DS? [...] 2D is fine, stop making up such drivel.

No one fucking said that.

The rest of your post is "blah".

 

[Mook1e]

What is in the future (2006) lineup for the PSP that will help sell the system?

I mean, really, most of the top tier PS2 franchises are already out on the PSP, what else could help it at this point? It's going to have to be a new, original game made specifically for the PSP.

The PSP in most of the territories is playing catch up to the DS, and that's with the PSP having used some of their big guns. If the DS is outselling it already, the gap will only widen when Mario Bros, Pokemon, Final Fantasy, and Zelda come out. Heck, Animal Crossing in Japan did half a million units in two weeks. 300K sales of the DS in one week. I can't wait to see the Japanese sales until the new year starts.

I already answered this question in the thread.
There are plenty of games coming in 2006 that are known to the majority of PSP gamers and even new games that are unfamiliar but show great promise.

Also, who cares if the DS outsells the PSP?
I don't. I own both. I enjoy both.
As long as both receive plenty of developer support, we all win.
You act as if the DS doing well will affect the PSP in some way. In the long run (if the current trend is an indicator) it doesn't matter if the DS outsells the PSP 2 or 3:1 worldwide if they both have plenty of sales.

 

[ziran]

i think the third party ds situation is being misunderstood and unrealistic.

western third party support for nintendo handhelds has never been strong, japanese third party software has always faired better. even when there was no competition western third party software on gba failed unless it was a kids game or a movie tie in, shown clearly in this chart:
http://www.ga-forum.com/showpost.php?p=2093134&postcount=1

even if nintendo had released a like for like handheld, psp would've been a success because of the popularity of the playstation brand.

in NA neither handheld has been an amazing success and neither handheld has failed miserably. both psp and ds are okay and have a healthy future.

imo competition and choice is great and handheld gaming has never been better.

 

[ioi]

Also, who cares if the DS outsells the PSP?
I don't. I own both. I enjoy both.
As long as both receive plenty of developer support, we all win.
You act as if the DS doing well will affect the PSP in some way. In the long run (if the current trend is an indicator) it doesn't matter if the DS outsells the PSP 2 or 3:1 worldwide if they both have plenty of sales.

Agreed, it doesn't matter but it's interesting to see how they do against one another.

But yes, it's not worth getting in a tizz about it all, they are both doing well and showing that they can co-exist.

I think the problem comes when Sony says things like "we're the fastest handheld ever to 10m" when both DS and GBA did it far quicker- only PR I know but they shouldn't say it when it's untrue.

 

[Hero]

No one fucking said that.

The rest of your post is "blah".

O RLY?

2D gamings on its way out whether the PSP stays around or not.

Even with Nintendo handhelds you're seeing 2D games less and less now that they have a handheld that can product proper 3D graphics. If the next step is GC level graphics on a handheld that'll knock out even more 2D games.

And Mook1e, I still don't know what your last post directed at me was supposed to be about since your post got mixed in with my quotes or something.


Who cares? I do, as do a lot of other people here apparently. For the most part, I just find everything about the PSP funny since a majority of GAF was laughing their asses off that Nintendo would try and compete with such a vastly inferior machine, and look how it's going now.

Another portion is that if the DS is indicative of the new Nintendo under Iwata, then we can hope to get more of the same for the Revolution, which is a good thing.

 

[Striek]

Why do we always have the "but it's 250 not 150" discussion. You also get a lot more for 250 you get your movie playback and better graphics. The price is an integral part of the handheld, both are appealing to very different audiences. It's not like they are exactly the same piece of kit with two completely different prices so I think the price argument is largely redundant.

Uh. $250 instantly puts it out of the price range of the DS's primary targets, kids, budget concious people, cash-strapped gamerss... Thats a huge factor, in no way redundant. If the PSP was $150, it would outsell the DS hands down, but of course, it isn't because of the features. If Sony had of made a $150 handheld, it would've had less features, so who knows how that battle would've turned out. Saying price is redundant is just silly.

With the above quote, you recognise the audiences are different, price is an integral part of the hardware, yet....sigh.

Madden is a failure

200k is a fucking failure? What do you peg the DS Madden sales at? Shit, how many DS third-party titles have hit 200k? How many have come close?

Other notable points, PSP sales aren't up to PS2, but did anyone expect them to be? Comparing PSP software and hardware sales to PS2 is lame. Compare software and hardware to DS, or (even better) nothing.

 

[Striek]

O RLY?

What does quoting SSX achieve? No mention of the DS there. Just the plain fact that 2D gaming is on its way out.

 

[ioi]

i think the third party ds situation is being misunderstood and unrealistic.

western third party support for nintendo handhelds has never been strong, japanese third party software has always faired better. even when there was no competition western third party software on gba failed unless it was a kids game or a movie tie in, shown clearly in this chart:
http://www.ga-forum.com/showpost.php?p=2093134&postcount=1

even if nintendo had released a like for like handheld, psp would've been a success because of the popularity of the playstation brand.

in NA neither handheld has been an amazing success and neither handheld has failed miserably. both psp and ds are okay and have a healthy future.

imo competition and choice is great and handheld gaming has never been better.

Agreed, competition is a good thing for us all

GBA has it's established 3rd party games like Spyro, Disney games, Yugioh, Dragonball Z, Spongebob, Pacman, Sonic Advance and these will all no doubt transfer over to DS. If anything it's because the GBA is so strong in the US that DS has struggled so far.

PSP also has it's trypical software from the usual Playstation market, my point is that I think to do well they need more than this, more handheld-aimed games, exclusives, Elostyle's point is still a good one for me that PSP software sales will be eating into PS2 and vice versa, how many people will own the same game on both systems? I think a good case in point for that is Madden and SW: Battlefront.

 

[ziran]

Other notable points, PSP sales aren't up to PS2, but did anyone expect them to be? Comparing PSP software and hardware sales to PS2 is lame. Compare software and hardware to DS, or (even better) nothing.

yes, sony!

that's the whole point of this thread...

Sony Computer Entertainment America President and Chief Executive Kaz Hirai told Reuters in October the company's goal is to double its install base by selling between 2.5 million and 3 million additional PSPs in North America by year end.

 

[Mook1e]

O RLY?





And Mook1e, I still don't know what your last post directed at me was supposed to be about since your post got mixed in with my quotes or something.


Who cares? I do, as do a lot of other people here apparently. For the most part, I just find everything about the PSP funny since a majority of GAF was laughing their asses off that Nintendo would try and compete with such a vastly inferior machine, and look how it's going now.

Another portion is that if the DS is indicative of the new Nintendo under Iwata, then we can hope to get more of the same for the Revolution, which is a good thing.

Sorry about that post. Posting from my phone. My comments are in the quotes.
I wasn't around for the GAF DS joke, but I don't understand how anyone can think that a Nintendo handheld isn't going to dominate based on the past 1.5 decades of dominance.
I can only hope that the Revolution is as cool as DS. On an unrelated note, I just bought a Gamecube today, any game recomendations out there?
(Got Naruto 4, RE4, Baten Kaitos, Pikman 2, Killer 7 and a few others for the kids)

 

[ziran]

GBA has it's established 3rd party games like Spyro, Disney games, Yugioh, Dragonball Z, Spongebob, Pacman, Sonic Advance and these will all no doubt transfer over to DS. If anything it's because the GBA is so strong in the US that DS has struggled so far.

PSP also has it's trypical software from the usual Playstation market, my point is that I think to do well they need more than this, more handheld-aimed games, exclusives, Elostyle's point is still a good one for me that PSP software sales will be eating into PS2 and vice versa, how many people will own the same game on both systems? I think a good case in point for that is Madden and SW: Battlefront.

i agree.

 

[ioi]

Uh. $250 instantly puts it out of the price range of the DS's primary targets, kids, budget concious people, cash-strapped gamerss... Thats a huge factor, in no way redundant. If the PSP was $150, it would outsell the DS hands down, but of course, it isn't because of the features. If Sony had of made a $150 handheld, it would've had less features, so who knows how that battle would've turned out. Saying price is redundant is just silly.

With the above quote, you recognise the audiences are different, price is an integral part of the hardware, yet....sigh.

No that's exactly my point. The price is an integral part of the whole situation. You can't compare and say well this is selling worse cause the price is higher.

If Sony had made a 150 handheld it would not have been anywhere near as slick, probably unable to play movies, graphics much worse and would likely have been thrashed by the DS. One of the main reasons the PSP is doing so well is because of the technology. The graphics, it's cool, multimedia capabilities.

You can't take the price on it's own and compare the two as it's an integral part of the whole strategy, target audience and market of both machines. Had the price been the same and the hardware been of the same level technologically then this would be a totally different argument. So taking price on IT'S OWN and using it as an argument is redundant since it's all inter-linked. You can't just say "if PSP was 150..." cause it would be a different piece of hardware with different features for a different audience.

200k is a fucking failure? What do you peg the DS Madden sales at? Shit, how many DS third-party titles have hit 200k? How many have come close?

Other notable points, PSP sales aren't up to PS2, but did anyone expect them to be? Comparing PSP software and hardware sales to PS2 is lame. Compare software and hardware to DS, or (even better) nothing.

200k is a failure for a madden game on a playstation hardware. People did initally expect PSP to do PS2 numbers, in fact many said GBA numbers which is just hillarious. My point is that software has been weak on PSP vs PS2 in the same timeframe and indeed on DS vs GBA. The difference however, is that DS has a lot to come (if we compare DS in the USA to Japan, you basically stretch out the first few months so we're on about June equivalent now in Japan and things are just picking up) whereas PSP seems to have shows most of it's cards already...

 

[Striek]

yes, sony!

that's the whole point of this thread...

6M in these months since launch is still less than PS2, assuming it went back to "business at usual" next year
Anyway, I don't want to get into the whole shipped = sold thing, but 4M sold in NA in 05 is possible (even probable) at this point, so 6M shipped is doable. Software sales on portables has always been worse than consoles though.

 

[Oblivion]

Why do we always have the "but it's 250 not 150" discussion. You also get a lot more for 250 you get your movie playback and better graphics. The price is an integral part of the handheld, both are appealing to very different audiences. It's not like they are exactly the same piece of kit with two completely different prices so I think the price argument is largely redundant.

THANK YOU! I always hate it when people use the price argument. You're fucking paying more BECAUSE it has better graphics, and can do other shit than the DS. And it's kinda funny too, because as someone in this thread mentioned, the GC should be killing every console on the market cause it's the cheapest. But it's not, is it?

I wouldn't say PSP software is selling that fantastically well in the USA considering the titles we have had so far. Madden and NFS won't sell well on the DS, they never sold well on GBA or GC so why would this be any different? Although multi-format they are really Playstation aimed games. We obviously have to take into account the userbase, but go back to the end of 2001 on PS2 (about 14-15 months after launch), PS2 had sold around 7.3 million in the USA and had games that had sold numbers like:

GTA 3 in the last 3 months:

Oct 01 247
Nov 01 447
Dec 01 1,113

Total 1.8 million and GTA3 really pushed PS2 hardware (900k in Nov, 1.95m in Dec).

But also MGS2 on 1.24m, Gran Turismo 3 on 1.2 million (plus about another 600k bundle), Final Fantasy X on 800k, Madden 2002 on around 1.6m

All this just over a year from launch.

PSP on the other hand has done 2.5 million in 8 months and software looks like:

Need Speed: UND Rivals 380,682
GTA: Liberty City Stories 366,581
Madden NFL 06 207,689

Madden is a failure, GTA may do another 300-400k in December and should do a million but hardly GTA3 is it and even the latest Need for Speed only limped to 39k in Nov.

I'd say PSP has been solid but far from spectacular in any way.

DS has been disappointing in the US, but great everywhere else and things are looking up...

I agree. The only other heavy hitter that's left seems to be Grand Tourismo, and who knows how much that will sell (not saying it's gonna bomba, but we really don't know if it'll really push hardware, especially if friggin GTA didn't do much). For Japan, Sony could see a change perhaps if they got a real Dragonquest or FF game on it. Europe? Well, Europe has the shittiest tastes, and there'll probably be enough licensed games to satisfy them.

 

[Hero]

What does quoting SSX achieve? No mention of the DS there. Just the plain fact that 2D gaming is on its way out.

The implication was there. If you didn't think so, then oh well, but to me it was there.

 

[SolidSnakex]

The implication was there. If you didn't think so, then oh well, but to me it was there.

The point is that you're seeing less 2D games on the DS than you saw on the GBA because now developers can make 3D games. As Striek pointed out, you still saw alot of 2D games last gen even though 3D was the one most devs went with. If the next step is Cube quality graphics with Nintendo's next handheld, don't you think that 2D gaming is giong to fade out even more?

 

[Striek]

No that's exactly my point. The price is an integral part of the whole situation. You can't compare and say well this is selling worse cause the price is higher.

If Sony had made a 150 handheld it would not have been anywhere near as slick, probably unable to play movies, graphics much worse and would likely have been thrashed by the DS. One of the main reasons the PSP is doing so well is because of the technology. The graphics, it's cool, multimedia capabilities.

You can't take the price on it's own and compare the two as it's an integral part of the whole strategy, target audience and market of both machines. Had the price been the same and the hardware been of the same level technologically then this would be a totally different argument. So taking price on IT'S OWN and using it as an argument is redundant since it's all inter-linked. You can't just say "if PSP was 150..." cause it would be a different piece of hardware with different features for a different audience.

But that argument is flawed because it assumes that the potential audience (in #) is the same for a $150 handheld and $250 handheld. The whole point is, at $250 there are less possible consumers than at $150/130. It should sell worse.
IF the PSP was $150 with the features, it would be a whitewash, but it can't be so it isn't, and thats the whole damned point. You can't compare sales of a $150/130 console to the PSP. Its stupid. I think you're halfway towards reaching this conclusion for yourself, but bias is holding you back.

whereas PSP seems to have shows most of it's cards already...

It clearly hasn't. FF, GT4 (very nearly as big as GTA), all the usual Sony franchises sure to grace the system.

 

[marc^o^]

If the next step is Cube quality graphics with Nintendo's next handheld, don't you think that 2D gaming is giong to fade out even more?

Nintendo has too many 2D beloved franchises to stop making such games. Cube quality graphics + touchscreen controls (or Rev like controls?) = 2D FTW.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Nintendo has too many 2D beloved franchises to stop making such games. Cube quality graphics + touchscreen controls (or Rev like controls?) = 2D FTW.

So you don't think 2D gaming would decrease at all on a console that can handle 2D gaming really well, even though its already decreated on the DS?

 

[Oblivion]

But that argument is flawed because it assumes that the potential audience (in #) is the same for a $150 handheld and $250 handheld. The whole point is, at $250 there are less possible consumers than at $150/130. It should sell worse.

Once again, why is the PS2 still killing the GC in terms of sales if it's higher price has less possible consumers?

 

[Hero]

The point is that you're seeing less 2D games on the DS than you saw on the GBA because now developers can make 3D games. As Striek pointed out, you still saw alot of 2D games last gen even though 3D was the one most devs went with. If the next step is Cube quality graphics with Nintendo's next handheld, don't you think that 2D gaming is giong to fade out even more?

Of course developers are going to try 3D, I see no problem in this, but there are a lot of franchises that will continue to go 2D. Castlevania, Mario Bros, Fire Emblem, Mega Man, etc.

I'm not going to try and speculate too much on the next Nintendo handheld, but it seems like the DS is going to be here for at least another 3 years, which is fine for 2D gaming. When it begins to dry up, then we can start discussing it.

Now if we don't see a 2D Metroid on DS then there's going to be hell to pay.

 

[marc^o^]

So you don't think 2D gaming would decrease at all on a console that can handle 2D gaming really well, even though its already decreated on the DS?

Nintendo is making a lot of 2D games for the DS, I don't see your point?

 

[Striek]

Once again, why is the PS2 still killing the GC in terms of sales if it's higher price has less possible consumers?

Glad you asked!
Because the GC sucks in terms of software lineup (comparitively), isn't a strong contender, has a very shitty reputation, and more importantly, the PS2 is affordable.

 

[ioi]

But that argument is flawed because it assumes that the potential audience (in #) is the same for a $150 handheld and $250 handheld. The whole point is, at $250 there are less possible consumers than at $150/130. It should sell worse.
IF the PSP was $150 with the features, it would be a whitewash, but it can't be so it isn't, and thats the whole damned point. You can't compare sales of a $150/130 console to the PSP. Its stupid. I think you're halfway towards reaching this conclusion for yourself, but bias is holding you back.


It clearly hasn't. FF, GT4 (very nearly as big as GTA), all the usual Sony franchises sure to grace the system.

No, no, no, no, no!!!

It's you who is missing the point completely.

You're assuming that everything is equal apart from the price!

Just as the fact that the PSP is 250 and DS is 150 means some people can't afford a PSP, the fact that the PSP has flashier graphics and plays movies and the DS doesn't means that the PSP has a wider appeal to gamers and non-gamers, tecchies and so forth. The fact that the DS has more "kiddy" games does not appeal to older gamers.

There are a muiltitude of factors here and all are interlinked.

You can't just take price alone and use it for comparison as the price has many other implications that are advantageous for one or the other.

Ok, so you've listed GT and Final Fantasy (which certainly hasn't been confirmed in fact more Square Enix support for DS has been announced so far an as always they have said that FF / DQ games will be on the console with largest userbase) and do you care to elaborate on the "usual Sony franchises"?

You mean like Everybody's Golf, Ape Escape, Wipeout?

 

[SolidSnakex]

Final Fantasy (which certainly hasn't been confirmed in fact

What? FF7: Crisis Core has been confirmed for a long time now.

 

[sonycowboy]

I wouldn't say PSP software is selling that fantastically well in the USA considering the titles we have had so far. Madden and NFS won't sell well on the DS, they never sold well on GBA or GC so why would this be any different? Although multi-format they are really Playstation aimed games. We obviously have to take into account the userbase, but go back to the end of 2001 on PS2 (about 14-15 months after launch), PS2 had sold around 7.3 million in the USA and had games that had sold numbers like:

GTA 3 in the last 3 months:

Oct 01 247
Nov 01 447
Dec 01 1,113

Total 1.8 million and GTA3 really pushed PS2 hardware (900k in Nov, 1.95m in Dec).

But also MGS2 on 1.24m, Gran Turismo 3 on 1.2 million (plus about another 600k bundle), Final Fantasy X on 800k, Madden 2002 on around 1.6m

All this just over a year from launch.

PSP on the other hand has done 2.5 million in 8 months and software looks like:

Need Speed: UND Rivals 380,682
GTA: Liberty City Stories 366,581
Madden NFL 06 207,689

Madden is a failure, GTA may do another 300-400k in December and should do a million but hardly GTA3 is it and even the latest Need for Speed only limped to 39k in Nov.

I'd say PSP has been solid but far from spectacular in any way.

You really should look at the first 7-8 months of PS2 software. The PSP is surpassing that quite easily. But, if you want to compare that time frame vs a system that was 12 months old entering it's second holiday, you should compare DS software sales vs the PS2 software sales above.

The DS would come up far shorter than the PSP has.

DS has been disappointing in the US, but great everywhere else and things are looking up...

Well this is certainly not the case in Japan. I agree that PSP will get strong and probably much stronger 3rd party support in the US but the point that has been made about the GBA holds true that when people start shifting from GBA to DS as they will then the Harry Potters, Spongebobs, Namco Museums and so on that sell so well on GBA should transfer over to DS.

I haven't noticed that DS software was selling anywhere near what PSP software is selling in Europe. I know we've seen Gaybrush say that the bundles are doing well, but no software is charting at all.

And if you're looking at those titles you just listed as the path to success, ugh.

 

[ioi]

What? FF7: Crisis Core has been confirmed for a long time now.

Yeah and that's gonna be huge !

 

[SolidSnakex]

Yeah and that's gonna be huge !

Glad you've been able to come to that conclusion without even seeing the game or heaving basically any info on it.

 

[Striek]

No, no, no, no, no!!!

It's you who is missing the point completely.

You're assuming that everything is equal apart from the price!

Just as the fact that the PSP is 250 and DS is 150 means some people can't afford a PSP, the fact that the PSP has flashier graphics and plays movies and the DS doesn't means that the PSP has a wider appeal to gamers and non-gamers, tecchies and so forth. The fact that the DS has more "kiddy" games does not appeal to older gamers.

There are a muiltitude of factors here and all are interlinked.

You can't just take price alone and use it for comparison as the price has many other implications that are advantageous for one or the other.

Ok, so you've listed GT and Final Fantasy (which certainly hasn't been confirmed in fact more Square Enix support for DS has been announced so far an as always they have said that FF / DQ games will be on the console with largest userbase) and do you care to elaborate on the "usual Sony franchises"?

You mean like Everybody's Golf, Ape Escape, Wipeout?

Ah its getting to a stage its not worth arguing here. Of course everything has a fucking effect on percieved value and desirability, but price is THE limiting factor in the end. Enticing lineups, good features, these things mean jack if a person can't afford the damn thing. You're taking the biased standpoint of saying that the PSP is selling poorly and price has nothing to do with sales. I'm never pretended that if the PSP was $150 it would still be as desired, I said its a whole new ballgame which neither me nor you could predict. We just don't fucking know.

But what we DO know is that the PSP isn't as affordable, and thus we can conclude sales are being affected. Thats just common sense.

As for franchises, are you for real? You think GTA/Madden (on the damned DS as well) and WE, the big hitters so far, are "most of it's cards". Sony have the aforementioned GT, Jak/Daxter, Ratchet, HL from Santa Monica, The Getaway, KZ, really, most of Sonys output is unique and I can't wait to see what they have. But to assume they've shown their hand is naive to the extreme.
Plus you have the far superior franchise ports from most publishers as well as their unique games....

 

[Mook1e]

are there any estimates of bundle sales for ds in NA?
That would deffinately increase the software attach ratio for ds.

Edit- Devil May Cry?

 

[ioi]

You really should look at the first 7-8 months of PS2 software. The PSP is surpassing that quite easily. But, if you want to compare that time frame vs a system that was 12 months old entering it's second holiday, you should compare DS software sales vs the PS2 software sales above.

The DS would come up far shorter than the PSP has.

Well, looking ahead to about Apr 06 I can't see things having changed that much for PSP.

PS2 launched in Oct 2000 in the US.

By mid 2001 we had GT3 out, sold 500k in first month or so, 2 million in 6 months including bundle. Just after that we had Madden 2001, sold ~700k in first month, 2 million total. October 2001 we had GTA3, Nov MGS2 and Dec FF X not to mention loads of others (DMC, Onimusha, Ace Combat 4, Jak & Daxter).

Similar in Japan. A year after launch we had Onimusha on 1 million, quickly followed by GT3 on 1.5m, FFX on 2.5m, Everybodys Golf 3 on 1m then into holidays with MGS2.

I know we are still only 8 months into PSP (12 in Japan) but to think we've had nothing that has sold particularly well as yet (Everybody's Golf has done 450k in Japan, GTA:LCS 400k in the US) and nothing until GT comes out looking like it will then I would have to worry.

I've posted this before but these are the big Playstation franchises:

Japan

Dragon Quest
Final Fantasy
Gran Turismo
Everybody's Golf
World Soccer
Dynasty Warriors
Kingdom Hears

USA
GTA
Madden (Pro Evo)
Gran Turismo
Need For Speed
Medal of Honour
Final Fantasy
Kingdom Hearts
EA Sports Range
Metal Gear Solid
Tony Hawks
SOCOM

Many of which (italics) have already seen PSP releases (i know Metal Gear Acid isn't a proper MG game but still) and out of what's left it's doubtful PSP will get any new versions of DQ and FF in Japan so we're only really left with GT to save the day.

As I've said before, PSP is far from DOOMED but it needs to be more than just a "portable playstation" to do well as this hasn't worked so far, it needs some more original games and compelling reasons for people to buy.

I haven't noticed that DS software was selling anywhere near what PSP software is selling in Europe. I know we've seen Gaybrush say that the bundles are doing well, but no software is charting at all.

And if you're looking at those titles you just listed as the path to success, ugh.

I'm not saying success (they are shite) but looking at your own chart they sell 500k-1m on GBA so no reason to assume they wont be popular with the DS crowd.

And to be honest, it's no different to the usual Playstation drivel of WWE, Tony Hawks, 50 Cent, Harry Potter games the latest EA Sports renditions every year, movie tie ins and so forth.

 

[ioi]

Ah its getting to a stage its not worth arguing here. Of course everything has a fucking effect on percieved value and desirability, but price is THE limiting factor in the end. Enticing lineups, good features, these things mean jack if a person can't afford the damn thing. You're taking the biased standpoint of saying that the PSP is selling poorly and price has nothing to do with sales. I'm never pretended that if the PSP was $150 it would still be as desired, I said its a whole new ballgame which neither me nor you could predict. We just don't fucking know.

But what we DO know is that the PSP isn't as affordable, and thus we can conclude sales are being affected. Thats just common sense.

lol, this is pointless you're right.

Price does have an effect, but it's not the main one (the point about GC being outsold surely proves that). Quality of software, image, advertising, features, perception of future software, holiday periods, lifecycle of console, bundles all sorts of things affect sales but you just keep saying "well PSP costs more so thats why it's not selling as well", but it's also a reason why it's selling better than it would if it cost less (more attractive hardware, UMD etc) so it's impossible to put it all down to the price.

There are many many many factors in why one console sells an amount one month and another sells another.

What I'm disagreeing with is that price is the main one. It's not.

And to take price on it's own is impossible to do anyway- as you say you can't argue if PSP was 150 as it would be a totally different situation.

 

[Striek]

I agree that its a combination of lots of things, and agree that the features the PSP affords at $250 makes it more desirable. But its clearly the single most important aspect of a console, but not more important than all others combined of course. GC/PS2 comparison is weak at best.

What I'm disagreeing with is that price is the main one. It's not.

We're just going to have to disagree then.