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Sony given power to seize Geroge Hotz's computer, Twitter and Youtube request denied
- Thread starter Mama Robotnik
- Start date
TOO LATE.-PXG- said:
Clearly a YouTube video talking shit is worthy of Sony suing his ass straight into jail. Oh and definitely justification for Sony seizing personal property in search for ___________ (will be edited when and if a reason comes up). I hope that they get his computer and find loads and load of iPhone porn, just caseless iPhones dismantled and put into naughty positions and all.
phosphor112
Banned
double post (why can't we delete posts yet?)
phosphor112
Banned
While being serious or not, saying you have someone "keys to their safe" isn't a good idea when you're being sued.squatingyeti said:
Yep, I've had to file a request for discovery once before. Some cop said I was speeding 20mph over the speed limit in my tiny ass Camry.Curufinwe said:
Sounds legit. I filed for discovery, they gave me all of his stuff that he apparently used to clock my speed. Guess if I got to look through it myself!?
I did
Geohot (or any hacker) cannot be held accountable for what people do with CFW. If I own a gun store, and sell someone a firearm and they use it to kill someone (without ever knowing that was their intent), should I be held accountable? Let's go even further and say that me, the owner, went through all of the proper steps and precautions when it comes to selling weapons. If a customer, with a clean record, comes in my store, and everything checks out, I can't help it if he goes outside in the parking lot and starts shooting people.
If Geohot released CFW for the sake of it, you can't blame him for anything else that may ensue afterwards, whether it be back ups, emulation, piracy or online game hacks. If distributing modified licensed software is illegal, then bust him for that. But anything else isn't his fault and he should not be reprimanded for it.
If Geohot released CFW for the sake of it, you can't blame him for anything else that may ensue afterwards, whether it be back ups, emulation, piracy or online game hacks. If distributing modified licensed software is illegal, then bust him for that. But anything else isn't his fault and he should not be reprimanded for it.
BoboBrazil
Member
-PXG- said:
Yep, he didn't enable syscalls which enable piracy. The only thing his cfw allowed were unsigned programs. Kmeaw after the fact released the lv2 flash and the authors of the backup managers created the programs that allowed backups to play. Geohot should not be punished because of what others did, which is what Sony is trying to accuse him of.
phosphor112
Banned
-PXG- said:
Once again, another failed argument by comparison.
"If guns kill people, I can blame misspelled words on my pencil! Git-r-done!"
That's not how a proper comparison works. You can compare two things just because both have a "proper" and "improper" way to use it (legal/illegal). You need proper similar features. I'll use the example again that I said in another thread.
A scientist can argue that a new drug will help humans because in the tests done with mice, it helped them. The comparison comes with the physiological and reactionary similarities humans have with mice.
On the other hand, you can't argue that a hammer be banned because it can be used to kill someone. It's because when comparing to an actual weapon, the only similarities is that you can use the item properly or improperly. In the hammers case, improperly, meaning it doesn't have sufficient similarities to compare them in a logical manner.
Omotesando
Member
Curufinwe said:
Discovery Channel?
squatingyeti
non-sanctioned troll
phosphor112 said:
Yeah, just like your attempts to say piracy could hurt Sony, but is a non-factor WRT Apple.
People want to hide behind, "well the DMCA says", which is complete bullshit. The DMCA has said lots of things that have later been decided are overbearing and anti-consumer. The DMCA said that jailbreaking phones was illegal too. According to the people wanting to follow what the DMCA says, then jailbreaking phones should never be allowed and the people that have done such should rot in jail as some of you desire.
So, stop hiding behind, "the DMCA says" and explain to me why you feel it should be illegal to say you figured something out and what it is, worse even explain HOW you found something, but not release the actual keys (fail0verflow, don't forget, Sony is suing them too as much as people want to only focus on Hotz).
You cannot have the stance that the DMCA is right and whatever it says should go, while also saying it's ok to jailbreak phones.
phosphor112
Banned
I don't feel like repeating myself just for you.squatingyeti said:
So, no.
Mama Robotnik
Member
phosphor112 said:
Why not link to the posts then, where you deconstruct Squatingyeti's reasoned and convincing argument? Surely that won't be as much of an imposition for you.
brotkasten
Member
Maybe he bought a new one?Afrikan said:
squatingyeti
non-sanctioned troll
phosphor112 said:
Repeat yourself? You've dodged every point, but to say piracy could happen on the PS3 and is thus a major factor. All the while trying to say it is a non-factor with phones. That argument is a joke a best.
Is the answer no, you don't believe everything the DMCA says is correct, but you want to continue saying hotz and fail0verflow should be punished? Or no, you don't think either jailbreaking phones or consoles should be allowed as they were both deemed illegal by the DMCA?
To some extent. But between actual releases and shit that he does, there are months upon months of NOTHING from Geohot. Usually just sticks to twittering whatever he feels.kitch9 said:
Dude is kinda a dick, and pretty unlikeable, but you're really trying too hard if you think that YouTube video will somehow catalyze events that end up with him in the slammer, or even if you attribute it to the video if he does end up in the slammer.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
This whole thread is filled with extreme exaggerations of just about everything, a comment like that seems perfectly in place.enzo_gt said:
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
phosphor112 said:
But that's not that similar right? You got to see what? The radar gun and other pieces of technology right? Did you get to see the laptop he had in his cruiser to check and take down your information and get a mirror image of the drive? No one cares that sony can see what he found out about the playstation but rather that it holds a lot of various personal information which seems fucked up that a corporation can go through the personal data just like you getting a copy of the cop's hard drive for the laptop in his cruiser over a speeding ticket.
phosphor112
Banned
Mama Robotnik said:
I can't search through my post history for some reason.
"phosphor112, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:"
Also, I'm tired of arguing with him. He's so quick to dismiss the relevance of the DMCA's rules of what geohot did being illegal when this court case SPECIFICALLY EXISTS because of the DMCA.
It doesn't fucking matter if he calls it "draconian" (and it's stupid at how nonchalant the word "draconian" is used).
Sony "could" be damaged from this, but the reality is, THEY ARE. KZ3 torrents are up and running right now and, and guess what, people are playing them, but wouldn't be able to without failOverflow or GeoHot.
He consistently compares the iPhone (cell phone) ruling (exemption) to Sony's situation when the only comparison is that both can have proper and improper use of software and both hardware can be bought. Unlike Apple, Sony is dependent of the software sales that the PS3 has. Unlike Sony, Apple makes a huge profit margin on each piece of hardware sold. Apple loses nothing as a platform holder, Sony, on the other hand, does.
I've explained myself time and time again, but this fucker is so quick to fucking push aside the DMCA in this case when (as I already said) this case is reliant upon.
"But but but, people could die from guns."
Stfu with that irrelevant shit.
By the way, what geohot did, it is CURRENTLY illegal by the DMCA. It doesn't fucking matter if phone hacking was also illegal at one point in time as well.
Zaraki_Kenpachi said:
I saw all things related to my case.
Including any and ALL notes he had, his laptop which had all the information about him pulling me over, his radar gun information, calibration dates. Of course, this was all done while being monitored by the proper authorities.
This will be the same thing for Sony. They can look at all the shit that pertained to the case, but they will do it while being watched.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
But again, that's all notes pertaining to just your case so it's already weeded out which is what people are having a problem with sony. They are getting a mirror copy of EVERYTHING, which you did not.phosphor112 said:
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
Zoe said:
Ah, misread it then if that's what he meant.
phosphor112
Banned
Yeah, I had all notes, of course, because I had some guard and some clerk watching me, I couldn't write down things that weren't pertaining to me, and had to get request for copying things. Like they double checked to make sure it was related to me.Zaraki_Kenpachi said:
BoboBrazil
Member
Afrikan said:
No, Hotz's and Sony's attorneys have to confer on a date together for Sony to look at his computers. I believe he can also be there while they look at them.
phosphor112
Banned
IIRC he was supposed to give them the computer yesterday.BoboBrazil said:
DangerousDave
Member
-PXG- said:
Again, the lie of the evil corporation bullying a poor 22 yo guy.
Pureauthor said:
I don't think it's that cut and dried. You have to look at what those illegitimate and legitimate uses are, and what kind of impact releasing that something into the wild is going to have.
The PS3 is a game console. Most people who bought one did so because they wanted to play games on it. (And by 'games', I mean titles from the major publishers, not homebrew games.)
Cracking the PS3 enables people to do other things with the console, like running homebrew applications. If that was the only thing it did, I doubt anyone would have a problem with it. Unfortunately, it also makes casual piracy easy and opens lots of possibilities for would-be cheaters online. What bothers me is that the people who bought a PS3 for its intended purpose - to play games on the thing, not to turn it into a MAME box or halfassed media center or whatever - are the ones who stand to lose out.
The homebrew advocates are crying foul because Sony's infringing on their right to modify the things they buy. Normally I'd be 100% supportive. But when those mods also lead to problems for the (far greater number of) people who bought that product for its intended purpose, who's protecting those consumers? Imagine that the worst case scenario comes to pass - publishers start withdrawing support due to piracy, leading Sony to pull the plug on the PS3 prematurely and shove the PS4 out the door as a more secure platform. If something like that were ever to happen, would the hackers start handing out refunds to everyone who bought a PS3 and now has a $400 doorstop? Or would they just shrug and say 'Not my problem'? Why should everyone who bought a PS3 have to deal with BS for the sake of a handful of users who care more about turning a game console into something else than actually using it to play games?
Melchiah
Member
Tellaerin said:
Applaud.
As for some people crying about big evil corporation taking poor kid's computer, and comparing all this to guns and whatnot, what's your stance about big evil state taking poor young terrorist's computer, in case it held information about past & future attacks?
NullPointer
Member
This. My God, THIS.Curufinwe said:
From reading all of these PS3 crack threads its pretty obvious the response would be 'Not my problem' (and it has been), which is frankly fucking insane to see on a gaming forum.Tellaerin said:
squatingyeti
non-sanctioned troll
In almost every case, hacking something will enable more than legit uses. In almost every case, the illegal uses cannot outweigh everything else just because they could happen. If people are committing piracy, then those individuals should be punished. What most people are advocating is that everyone be found guilty and immoral and therefore no one should be allowed consumer rights and fair use.Tellaerin said:
What problems are being caused to everyone else? Please don't start with the cheating because a) It was going on BEFORE CFW and b) Sony is perfectly capable of detecting cheaters, disabling remote accesses to PSN, AND banning systems (they've chosen to pretty much do nothing).
The bolded portion is exactly how Apple could greatly be affected by jailbreaking. Imaging app makers withdrawing support due to piracy. People no longer see the iPhone as a good device because there's no apps for it, which makes it a shitty smartphone. Apple must pull the plug on the iPhone.
Were you for or against jailbreaking phones?
LOL, you can't be serious, right?Melchiah said:
squatingyeti
non-sanctioned troll
Misrepresenting my statements, maybe next you can enthrall us all with the only uses for CFW are for "backups" again. Again, what I HAVE stated is the DMCA also said it was illegal to jailbreak phones. My point has been, just because the DMCA says something is illegal, does not mean the DMCA itself isn't flawed. In fact, it's been proven to be flawed several times. I've asked you specifically if it said jailbreaking phones was illegal, which it does, and says jailbreaking the PS3 is illegal, why are people quick to attack hotz, but even more importantly, fail0verflow, which you've stayed away from.phosphor112 said:
Apple "could" be damaged by jailbreaking, but the reality is, THEY ARE. App torrents are up and running and have been from the get go. You're right though, it can't hurt Apple. That is the most ridiculously flawed argument. To say piracy could hurt one company due to jailbreaking, but it is a non-factor to another.
Riiiiiiiiiight the only comparison. Nothing about this:
Or the fact that both devices must be owned for a jailbreak to be done to them. Let's also ignore that the firmware for both is also offered for free, meaning jailbreaking canot damage the value because it's free (firmware is free provided with devices as established by DMCA, and the exemption. Not even Apple wanted to debate this). Neither can argue that sales of their device are actually hurt by the jailbreaking:DMCA exemption said:
Then, you go on to explain how Sony sells its system for a loss and Apple makes money on their system. That is a business choice. Hey, printer companies were selling printers at a lower price because you had to buy ink from said company. They planned on gaining some of the money they would have got from the sale of the printer back when you purchased ink. Then, these terrible hackers broke their security and cartridge chips allowing you to do something they didn't want, use ink that wasn't authorized. Guess we should have supported the printer companies more. After all, they were expecting to make money from that. I wonder who won that issue???DMCA exemption said:
Mischaracterization of my stance. I have not pushed aside the DMCA, I have called into question the portion of the DMCA saying what has happened here is illegal. You are so quick to pretend the DMCA is, apparently, always right. Even despite the fact that we all KNOW it has been found wrong before.
I never stated such and your anger with people with a different view than yours seems to continue to stem from your own incorrect belief that the only thing CFW does is allow "backups".
Yes, yes it does. The reason it matters is because there are several people going around talking about putting him in jail and how terrible he is because he broke the law. The problem stands, since the DMCA has said both are illegal, aren't the phone jailbreakers just as bad? Either the DMCA is right and continues to be right, meaning jailbreaking of phones should not be allowed, or the DMCA has flaws and they are addressed individually, as they are challenged.
What I, and other consumer rights advocates will have to accept is that Hotz is likely to lose this case. Not because he is necessarily wrong, but because courts don't rule right and wrong, they rule what the law says. Unless they challenge that portion of the DMCA specifically, or the EFF challenges with the Library of Congress, as they did with phones, for an exemption, the court will likely not side with him.
Because the similarities are so...similar! Again, I like how you and phosphor continue to talk about piracy, but when I spell out EXACTLY how Apple would be in the same boat, you just say that doesn't matter. It's like if Apple had no apps, people would just continue to buy the iPhone. BTW, isn't it interesting you don't mention the NDS? I mean, piracy is easily enabled on that handheld too.spwolf said:
DonMigs85
Member
Apple is indeed losing potential software sales, but as has been mentioned, they make big profits from hardware sales alone, unlike Sony. Software royalties are just the icing on the cake for them, and most apps are so cheap anyway, so you can't directly compare their situation to Sony's.squatingyeti said:
Tellaerin said:
Again, this advocates the convenience of the majority over the rights of the minority. I vehemently disagree with that position in every circumstance I can imagine.
This doesn't seem like justification to me.
Apple can make money despite jailbreaking/piracy because they have a robust, conservative, long term business plan that accommodates problems like piracy. Of course Apple would prefer that absolutely nothing went wrong and that everything they tried succeeded without any downsides: but they are aware that this won't realistically happen, so they plan to be able to make money even if some things don't end up working perfectly.
You are essentially saying that Sony can't make money unless absolutely everything goes perfectly right, and that even common bumps in the road (such as jailbreaking) can be the difference between losses and profitability. This suggests that Sony had a bad business plan to begin with, so adding piracy on top of that will make it even worse. Which is true -- it will make it even worse -- but that's absurd justification for treating Sony differently than Apple.
squatingyeti
non-sanctioned troll
Yes I can actually. It is a business decision what to sell your product at. Again, printer manufacturers, at one point, sold printers for less, expecting to make some of that money back on the sale of ink. Hackers broke their ink cartridge chips, copied what they needed to, and made unauthorized cartridges work. We are now allowed to purchase ink from someone other than the printer manufacturer, even though the manufacturers security was broken.DonMigs85 said:
Razor and blades model. The consumer could choose to use a 3rd party option for blades. It is not their fault that you, as a business, sold something for a loss.
EDIT: beaten and put nicely by Opiate. Absurd justification indeed
squatingyeti
non-sanctioned troll
Melchiah said:
So, now we're back to the, "everyone with CFW must be a pirate" argument? I bought the console (paid), I buy games (paid), I want to use apps and play games Sony is denying me. Furthermore, you're talking about convenience vs outright being denied something.
Melchiah said:
First, even those who exclusively use the system for OtherOS are indeed paying for the system. More importantly, what about those who bought the system for OtherOS and for games? Again, I have a friend (mentioned earlier in this thread) who cited OtherOS as a primary reason he initially chose the PS3 over the 360. And I'll put the same caveats on it I did before: yes I'm a techie, yes my friend is a techie with a particular affinity for linux, no I am not suggesting his situation is particularly common.
But he does exist, and I doubt he's the only person in the entire world that fits the description. So what do we tell him? Sucks to be him, I guess? That's easy to say when you're not personally the minority.
jump_button
Banned
if you playing around with thing you shouldnt be dont moan when you get yourself in trouble
squatingyeti
non-sanctioned troll
I'll point out, as I did earlier, the fact they removed OtherOS is simply another mark on the chalkboard for why jailbreaking the PS3 is fair use. It wouldn't matter if OtherOS was never included, that wouldn't take away my desire for, and legally allowed, fair use. Taking it away just makes it another reason why you should be able to jailbreak the PS3, but not the only.Melchiah said:
Who said they promised me any games? They're denying me the ability to use apps or play games they have not approved. If I were to code some rudimentary game for fun, or even a complex game, I should be able to get it to run on my PS3 without needing Sony to allow it. This is similar to the stance Apple had with the iPhone and was a major reason behind the exemption.
Melchiah
Member
squatingyeti said:
Like I said, wasn't OtherOS removed because of people like GoeHot? Because some people found a way to hack the system through it? If so, then they're to be blamed for the removal of OtherOS, not Sony.
squatingyeti said:
You said:
What exactly would entitle you to play other than PS3 games on PS3? (After all, it's was known from the beginning, that RSX would be disabled when using OtherOS) Are you entitled to play any games, and use any apps, you want on 360 and Wii as well? Why don't you just buy a PC, and be done with it?