Support NeoGAF

[StealthGoblin]

Off-topic, but it will be interesting what percentage of PS3's actually have eight fully operational SPU's (it was my understanding that the reason for only using seven was so that Cell's would pass QA testing even if one of their SPU's proved to be faulty).

Indeed. It was to increase yields. Sony also saved Cells with 8 functional SPU's for military purposes and dedicated supercomputers.

 

[MYE]

Sony could shit on someones face in public and some people here would still cheer for them. Wooo go Sony poop in our faces.

Gladly rolling in Sony's puddle of piss and shit is honourable. Its the way of the true console warrior.

 

[Ponn]

Cheating on COD4 was occuring before any kind of jailbreak came out as the game had an unencrypted save which allowed people to enable godmode.

There were also ways to glitch the MW2 save as well to enabled godmode without jailbreaking.

There will always be ways to cheat in online games regardless of whether the system itself has been hacked or not. If you're going to offer a robust online service, licensing a cheat detection system or creating one yourself is the only way to go.

Right, i didn't say there was no cheating before or there won't be in the future. I was just pointing out that the attitude that it doesn't matter what hackers do the Onus falls on Sony no harm no foul is very naive. There are reprecussions that come about that will be felt by everyone, either in the current console or next console no matter how hard a person wants to try to fool themselves otherwise.

Sony is a company, and EVERY company is about making money or they wouldn't be in business. And the thing of it is I get a very strong feeling in most of these threads that most hackers and homebrewers could give a shit less if the company (and maybe, even to an extent other companies like MS, etc) went out of business because of their actions, no matter how small that just add up. Thats the sad part, no culpability, I know i went CFW for a couple weeks then felt pretty bad about it and went back to OFW.

 

[BritBloke916]

Sony was under no obligation to support it on the slim. Companies add and remove features during hardware revisions all the time, and as far as I'm concerned, that's fine.

Taking it out of the fats was shitty, and they deserve to lose their lawsuit.

That seems a pretty reasonable outlook to me. I don't know whether or not they deserve to lose THIS particular lawsuit, but I would certainly agree that they deserve to lose the OTHER lawsuit which is specifically about their removal of OtherOS from the PS3 fat. It would have been a nice PR gesture to receive a small PSN voucher or at at least something as an apology for the sudden loss of functionality.

EDIT: In retrospect, if Sony had offered a free first-party PSN game in return for users voluntarily giving up their "right" to OtherOS, you probably would have had almost universal adoption!

As far as the removal of OtherOS from the PS3 Slim is concerned, personally I would have traded my fat's OtherOS option for the Slim's BraviaSync compatibility in a heartbeat.

 

[mclem]

Yes, but even in your scenario here it is still affecting EVERYONE. Who do you think is going to pay the added costs to hunt down cheaters and program stronger protection measures. And who is going to end up having to deal with these stricter protection measures.

What you're fundamentally saying here is this:

"It's okay if companies cut corners, because it saves money! If they didn't cut corners, we'd have to pay for so much more! I'm sure there's no unpleasant side-effects from these corners being cut!"

In the case of multiplatform games, it is likely that the corners were cut on *all* platforms, even those more open (by default) than the PS3. Is it fair on those users that they're implicitly getting an inferior experience?

And how many features will be stripped from the next consoles R and D and not even added because they are too vulnerable.

There would be much less complaining if Sony had never offered OtherOS in the first place. Better not to offer it than run a bait and switch.

 

[jcm]

That seems a pretty reasonable outlook to me. I don't know whether or not they deserve to lose THIS particular lawsuit, but I would certainly agree that they deserve to lose the OTHER lawsuit which is specifically about their removal of OtherOS from the PS3 fat. It would have been a nice PR gesture to receive a small PSN voucher or at at least something as an apology for the sudden loss of functionality.

EDIT: In retrospect, if Sony had offered a free first-party PSN game in return for users voluntarily giving up their "right" to OtherOS, you probably would have had almost universal adoption!

As far as the removal of OtherOS from the PS3 Slim is concerned, personally I would have traded my fat's OtherOS option for the Slim's BraviaSync compatibility in a heartbeat.

Sorry, I was a bit unclear. I agree with you. They deserve to lose the class action other os lawsuit. They should win the geohot one.

 

[fart town usa]

What you're fundamentally saying here is this:

"It's okay if companies cut corners, because it saves money! If they didn't cut corners, we'd have to pay for so much more! I'm sure there's no unpleasant side-effects from these corners being cut!"

In the case of multiplatform games, it is likely that the corners were cut on *all* platforms, even those more open (by default) than the PS3. Is it fair on those users that they're implicitly getting an inferior experience?

There would be much less complaining if Sony had never offered OtherOS in the first place. Better not to offer it than run a bait and switch.

It's one thing if companies cut corners for the sake of being cheap and it's another thing to cut costs because the majority of gamers and industry figureheads are saying that the console is too expensive and needs a price cut.

OK. If you want a pricecut, some things have to be cut out in order to...wait for it...cut costs. Funny how that works huh?

Also, it wasn't a bait and switch, it was sony responding to a possible security threat, poised by the same person who had jailbroken the iPhone. I think sony had just cause to be concerned.

A few posts back I provided links to sony's response on the otherOS removal for the slim and how they had no intention of removing the feature for the fat models. It was only when geohot tried to backdoor the system that sony removed the feature for all units.

Sony is not at fault here, geohot is. Plain and simple. That doesn't mean homebrew is wrong, but the way geohot went about it was completely wrong and irresponsible. Sony had provided an anevue for homebrewers but apparently it wasn't good enough. If anyone is being hypocrites about this whole thing it's the people that are ignoring the fact that geohot caused the otherOS feature to be removed which snowballed into what is currently going on with the ps3/sony.

 

[Ponn]

What you're fundamentally saying here is this:

"It's okay if companies cut corners, because it saves money! If they didn't cut corners, we'd have to pay for so much more! I'm sure there's no unpleasant side-effects from these corners being cut!"

I said nothing even remotely close to that. I would thank you to no put false words in my mouth then argue about those made up words with an imaginary me.

In the case of multiplatform games, it is likely that the corners were cut on *all* platforms, even those more open (by default) than the PS3. Is it fair on those users that they're implicitly getting an inferior experience?

You seem hung up on cheating while ignoring all the other aspects i mentioned. Fair enough, I already said cheating was there before, but would you coincede that actions of this newest hack did in fact create more issues or not?

There would be much less complaining if Sony had never offered OtherOS in the first place. Better not to offer it than run a bait and switch.

Exactly, and with all this going on don't you think a company is going to say "well, we could innovate and offer more things in our future console but why bother. Running software from external drives? Forget it. Media streaming? forget it, open loophole" and on and on with new features I can't think of that may never be implemented now. Point is reprecussions are going to happen that will affect everyone, not just hackers or homebrewers no matter how much you want to expect Sony to "just deal with it" Company is going to react to protect its business and money, period. Or said company won't exist anymore.

 

[blu]

They should not. They should be protected - by the game makers and by Sony. The former by writing solid code, the latter by banning those who get online with cheats enabled.

At the moment, the hackers are acting as a very useful scapegoat, because by encouraging fans to pile the blame on *them*, it carefully avoids anyone asking any awkward questions about how the corporations behind this failed *you*, as a user.

You, sir, are too smart for this thread. I suggest you leave now.

 

[mclem]

It's one thing if companies cut corners for the sake of being cheap and it's another thing to cut costs because the majority of gamers and industry figureheads are saying that the console is too expensive and needs a price cut.

OK. If you want a pricecut, some things have to be cut out in order to...wait for it...cut costs. Funny how that works huh?

Actually, I'm generally talking about cutting corners in game development, here, not in the console itself. Although I guess the potential for bans straddles both disciplines.

In terms of game dev costs: cut the costs that don't affect gameplay. Use lower-res textures. Hire a cheaper voice actor.

Also, it wasn't a bait and switch, it was sony responding to a possible security threat, poised by the same person who had jailbroken the iPhone. I think sony had just cause to be concerned.

Potayto, potahto.

Plus, of course, we only have their word that that was the real reason they removed it. Could be they were planning to remove it anyway to, well, cut costs; in this case, the costs of keeping future firmwares compatible with it. Of course, claiming it going away being a cost-cutting measure would have been unwise politically, so it's a good job Geohot came along to save them from that.

It's worth bearing in mind that, from what I could see from the initial OtherOS vectors for hacking, they really didn't get all that far with it; they got some access they were previously denied, but not all that much. Which is why I'm more inclined to believe it was a cost-cutting measure over being a security measure. Do bear in mind that they were still working on it after OtherOS was removed, and nothing major came along until the PSGroove thing came about.

Although, with my conspiracy theorist hat on, I think this is also a quite possible chain of events:

PS3 released. Security flaw in it (the fail0verflow one)
Slim released. OtherOS removed as a cost-cutting measure.
Sony discover security flaw in PS3. Keep quiet about it. Continue to market the system as a fertile ground to third parties because of the rock-solid security.
Geohot tinkers with OtherOS. Gets more access than the default (but in no way has major access to the whole system)
Sony hears about it, and realises that the access Geohot has now could reveal the security flaw. Removes OtherOS to hide their mistake.
Geohot keeps tinkering with OtherOS, gets nowhere. Maybe OtherOS doesn't open up the information about the security flaw after all. Certainly, no significant progress is made on using OtherOS to get access to the system, despite the fact that there are people with an old firmware who could still make use of it.
PSJailbreak happens. New flurry of development into hacking the PS3, since PSJailbreak gives more access than any form of hacking via OtherOS ever did.
Fail0verflow find the security flaw, and report on it.

I want to know when Sony discovered the security flaw. I want to know if they removed OtherOS because they were scared about people finding out about the security flaw. And finally, I want to know if they knowingly decieved any third parties in the process.

 

[mclem]

You, sir, are too smart for this thread. I suggest you leave now.

You may not think that after my most recent, tinfoil-hatty post

 

[Pristine_Condition]

I'll point out, as I did earlier, the fact they removed OtherOS is simply another mark on the chalkboard for why jailbreaking the PS3 is fair use. It wouldn't matter if OtherOS was never included, that wouldn't take away my desire for, and legally allowed, fair use. Taking it away just makes it another reason why you should be able to jailbreak the PS3, but not the only.

No. Taking OtherOS away is a reason for a consumer to perhaps demand a refund from Sony for their product, or take legal action against Sony if they can't come to terms to rectify the dispute to their satisfaction.

It does not justify someone going OUTSIDE the law to redress the issue, which is what Geohot and the hackers have done.

In other words, you don't like what Sony did RE: OtherOS? Take them to court. Do it legally. Don't become the nerdy Charles Bronson of OtherOS Vigilantism.

 

[mclem]

No. Taking OtherOS away is a reason for a consumer to perhaps demand a refund from Sony for their product, or take legal action against Sony if they can't come to terms to rectify the dispute to their satisfaction.

It does not justify someone going OUTSIDE the law to redress the issue, which is what Geohot and the hackers have done.

However, depending on the law in question, it may open up a reasonable 'fair use' claim for the modifications, making them within the law. That's one for the lawyers to play with.

 

[fart town usa]

Exactly, and with all this going on don't you think a company is going to say "well, we could innovate and offer more things in our future console but why bother. Running software from external drives? Forget it. Media streaming? forget it, open loophole" and on and on with new features I can't think of that may never be implemented now. Point is reprecussions are going to happen that will affect everyone, not just hackers or homebrewers no matter how much you want to expect Sony to "just deal with it" Company is going to react to protect its business and money, period. Or said company won't exist anymore.

I agree completely.

Some people feel like they're entitled to everything.

I for one don't even know what apps the homebrew community has even brought to the ps3.

A quick google search has shown me,

Doom, emulators, tetris.


Yes, praise be to geohot. I can't imagine doing any of those things on a standard pc.

 

[a.wd]

this was really the only issue i have ever had with the way this whole thing apparently went down. nobody did what i've always considered the ethical hacker thing and give Sony a heads up before detailing their findings or going so far as to release the keys/CFW, etc.

at least, if there were attempts to bring this all to sony's attention, i don't recall seeing it mentioned.

usually that forces the company to act or, if they do not, it's basically their own damn fault.

i don't know if it would have made a difference to sony's reaction of the whole thing, but i'd certainly have a different perception of all the players involved if they tried. at least with something where it's the result of a critical mistake in key generation (or non-generation).

I think people didn't do the whole "ethical" thing as Sony did not do the "ethical" thing. People were trying to do stuff with the PS3 for ages, but the efforts were mostly time consuming and very very difficult (see Hotzs paper, tape, exposed wires efforts).

Sony saw that people were trying stuff (again in a very haphazard non focused way) and decided rather than give them what they were trying to achieve (RSX access) they would completely close the whole thing off and screw you to anyone who wants to use functionality of the system as it was when they bought it.

Is that fair of Sony?

 

[mclem]

I said nothing even remotely close to that. I would thank you to no put false words in my mouth then argue about those made up words with an imaginary me.

I misunderstood you, then; I apologise. Could you then elaborate on:

Yes, but even in your scenario here it is still affecting EVERYONE. Who do you think is going to pay the added costs to hunt down cheaters and program stronger protection measures. And who is going to end up having to deal with these stricter protection measures.

I felt that "hunting down cheaters" and "programming stronger protection measures" were a corner that had been cut, and should not have been; I thought you were implying that *not* doing so was perfectly acceptable. Hence my interpretation of your words.

 

[Zoe]

I think people didn't do the whole "ethical" thing as Sony did not do the "ethical" thing. People were trying to do stuff with the PS3 for ages, but the efforts were mostly time consuming and very very difficult (see Hotzs paper, tape, exposed wires efforts).

Sony saw that people were trying stuff (again in a very haphazard non focused way) and decided rather than give them what they were trying to achieve (RSX access) they would completely close the whole thing off and screw you to anyone who wants to use functionality of the system as it was when they bought it.

Is that fair of Sony?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[fart town usa]

I think people didn't do the whole "ethical" thing as Sony did not do the "ethical" thing. People were trying to do stuff with the PS3 for ages, but the efforts were mostly time consuming and very very difficult (see Hotzs paper, tape, exposed wires efforts).

Sony saw that people were trying stuff (again in a very haphazard non focused way) and decided rather than give them what they were trying to achieve (RSX access) they would completely close the whole thing off and screw you to anyone who wants to use functionality of the system as it was when they bought it.

Is that fair of Sony?

Yes it is fair. If the avenue that sony provided wasn't suffice, then so be it. Geohot wasn't being shy about showing off his efforts in trying to exploit the avenue that sony had provided and it ultimately cost everyone that had a fat model the option to run linux.

Nothing is ever good enough for some people.

 

[BritBloke916]

I want to know when Sony discovered the security flaw. I want to know if they removed OtherOS because they were scared about people finding out about the security flaw. And finally, I want to know if they knowingly decieved any third parties in the process.

Given just how quickly - and effectively - Sony were able to implement a new private key and whitelist the existing software with firmware 3.56, I don't agree that this was a vulnerability that they had already known about for a long time. If it had been, they simply would have quietly included these measures even before 3.21 (which removed OtherOS). It would have been less work to compile the whitelist back then!

 

[blu]

I agree completely.

Some people feel like they're entitled to everything.

I for one don't even know what apps the homebrew community has even brought to the ps3.

A quick google search has shown me,

Doom, emulators, tetris.


Yes, praise be to geohot. I can't imagine doing any of those things on a standard pc.

For someone who quotes OSNews, you come out pretty narrow-minded in the above post.

You do know governmental agencies have been using OtherOS for some pretty serious tasks, right? Now, being an intelligent person, you should be able to explain why you think CFW is more limited than OtherOS when it comes to making full use of the hw.

 

[Canova]

I agree completely.

Some people feel like they're entitled to everything.

I for one don't even know what apps the homebrew community has even brought to the ps3.

A quick google search has shown me,

Doom, emulators, tetris.


Yes, praise be to geohot. I can't imagine doing any of those things on a standard pc.

no shit.

All these so-called PS3 homebrew communities reminds me of young teenagers who just learn how to drive.

kids....

 

[MYE]

no shit.

All these so-called PS3 homebrew communities reminds me of young teenagers who just learn how to drive.

kids....

lol

 

[fart town usa]

For someone who quotes OSNews, you come out pretty narrow-minded in the above post.

You do know governmental agencies have been using OtherOS for some pretty serious tasks, right? Now, being an intelligent person, you should be able to explain why you think CFW is more limited than OtherOS when it comes to making full use of the hw.

We've all heard the stories about the ps3's being used in universities and the air force as supercomputers and whatnot. That isn't the case here though because obviously those groups were using linux. They didn't need the console to be blown wide open to satiate their needs.

But people who made doom, tetris, ftp servers & emulators available on the ps3 apparently need complete and full access to the system to satiate their needs.

Right...

 

[jorma]

No. Taking OtherOS away is a reason for a consumer to perhaps demand a refund from Sony for their product, or take legal action against Sony if they can't come to terms to rectify the dispute to their satisfaction.

It does not justify someone going OUTSIDE the law to redress the issue, which is what Geohot and the hackers have done.

You forget one thing - the only thing making this even potentially illegal is the fact that geohot is american. So even if geohot might have gone outside of the law (we'll see about that, i still think the iphone is a good precedent since it was not on the DMCA list of exceptions when it was actually jailbroken), but all those other hackers? They went outside of no law, because most of them are from europe.

Kmeaw is not american is he?
So his fw would not be made outside of the law and using his work is obvously not outside the law. Yay!

In other words, you don't like what Sony did RE: OtherOS? Take them to court. Do it legally. Don't become the nerdy Charles Bronson of OtherOS Vigilantism.

Turns out i don't need to take Sony to court in order to stay both morally and legally ahead of sony. Kmeaw to the rescue!

 

[blu]

We've all heard the stories about the ps3's being used in universities and the air force as supercomputers and whatnot. That isn't the case here though because obviously those groups were using linux. They didn't need the console to be blown wide open to satiate their needs.

But people who made doom, tetris, ftp servers & emulators available on the ps3 apparently need complete and full access to the system to satiate their needs.

Right...

You do realize one of the uses of CFW is to facilitate the deployment of linux on slims, right?

 

[fart town usa]

You do realize one of the uses of CFW is to facilitate the deployment of linux on slims, right?

Yes.

The slims didn't feature the otherOS option because sony was cutting costs in order to sell the system at a lower price because the general public said that the ps3 was too expensive. The slim not featuring otherOS is a moot point because it was never intended to have the otherOS feature.

As for the fat model, you shouldn't have ever had to run CFW to get linux on it because if geohot hadn't tried to backdoor the system via otherOS, sony never would have removed the otherOS support.

 

[DenogginizerOS]

I am late to this whole thing. What did this guy say his reason for hacking the PS3 was? Nonetheless, It seems to me his hacking the ps3 certainly makes his PC a valid target for discovery.

 

[fart town usa]

I am late to this whole thing. What did this guy say his reason for hacking the PS3 was? Nonetheless, It seems to me his hacking the ps3 certainly makes his PC a valid target for discovery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG9r7cCpk_g

Basically, he put forth a stronger effort to hack the ps3 because sony removed the otherOS feature from the fat model.

The only reason sony removed the otherOS feature was because in january of 2010 geohot was showcasing on his blog that he was trying to backdoor his way into the ps3 by way of the otherOS feature, flash forward to march 2010 and sony removes the otherOS feature due to security issues.

So geohot hacked the ps3 system because sony removed the otherOS feature which geohot himself was the reason the otherOS system was removed.


Make sense? Ha.

 

[mclem]

As for the fat model, you shouldn't have ever had to run CFW to get linux on it because if geohot hadn't tried to backdoor the system via otherOS, sony never would have removed the otherOS support.

Once again: No significant breakthroughs were made from attempting to backdoor via OtherOS, in nearly a year. What was Sony afraid of?

Sony did it to cut costs. Geohot was a scapegoat. Only a theory, I grant you, but it's not an impossibility.

 

[PetriP-TNT]

The only reason sony removed the otherOS feature was

so that they didn't have to keep supporting it as no-one* was using it and it was already removed from Slim-consoles.


*~99% of all owners

 

[fart town usa]

Once again: No significant breakthroughs were made from attempting to backdoor via OtherOS, in nearly a year. What was Sony afraid of?

Sony did it to cut costs. Geohot was a scapegoat. Only a theory, I grant you, but it's not an impossibility.

Or maybe Sony thought,

"Hmm, this is the same guy that jailbroke the iPhone, he's a child prodigy when it comes to computers hardware/software, let's put an end to this before it goes any further."

Obviously it backfired horribly but all the same.

 

[mclem]

Or maybe Sony thought,

"Hmm, this is the same guy that jailbroke the iPhone, he's a child prodigy when it comes to computers hardware/software, let's put an end to this before it goes any further."

Obviously it backfired horribly but all the same.

Well, they were wrong. And in being wrong, and having that knee-jerk reaction, denied OtherOS (or the ability to run new games) to a bunch of legitimate users.

So, once again, a fair portion of the blame does lie at Sony's feet.

 

[blu]

Yes.

The slims didn't feature the otherOS option because sony was cutting costs in order to sell the system at a lower price because the general public said that the ps3 was too expensive. The slim not featuring otherOS is a moot point because it was never intended to have the otherOS feature.

Please, enlighten me, what is the connection between slim's intended use, and its fair use.

As for the fat model, you shouldn't have ever had to run CFW to get linux on it because if geohot hadn't tried to backdoor the system via otherOS, sony never would have removed the otherOS support.

Did Sony take it upon themselves to supply said serious users with unlimited supply of phats? Honest question. I wouldn't be much surprised if they did, despite the same-as-pirate's effect of those customers on Sony's bottom-line.

 

[fart town usa]

so that they didn't have to keep supporting it as no-one* was using it and it was already removed from Slim-consoles.


*~99% of all owners

It was removed from the slim model to cut costs, just as the emotion engine was cut from the ps3, just as the digital av port was removed from the gamecube, the lack of a hdd on the 360 arcade unit, the lack of hdmi when the 360 launched, etc, etc, etc...

Cutting out certain features in order to cut costs is nothing new to the gaming industry.

 

[Jocchan]

Once again: No significant breakthroughs were made from attempting to backdoor via OtherOS, in nearly a year. What was Sony afraid of?

Sony did it to cut costs. Geohot was a scapegoat. Only a theory, I grant you, but it's not an impossibility.

Every major decision a company takes, in the end, boils down to costs and potential damages.
If Sony removed OtherOS, it was likely because it appeared as a solution much cheaper than mantaining it, especially if that meant patching out some flaws (something that could still have made them public).

 

[mclem]

It was removed from the slim model to cut costs, just as the emotion engine was cut from the ps3, just as the digital av port was removed from the gamecube, the lack of a hdd on the 360 arcade unit, the lack of hdmi when the 360 launched, etc, etc, etc...

He's not talking about the Slim, there.

Cutting out certain features in order to cut costs is nothing new to the gaming industry.

Although it's particularly galling when it occurs such that an entire *region* gets an inferior model. Not that I'm bitter. Oh, no.

 

[fart town usa]

Please, enlighten me, what is the connection between slim's intended use, and its fair use.

Did Sony take it upon themselves to supply said serious users with unlimited supply of phats? Honest question. I wouldn't be much surprised if they did, despite the same-as-pirate's effective effect of those customers for Sony's bottom-line.

Fair use to me it using the ps3 in it's intended function. It's not like sony was removing features left and right for the hell of it. I still have yet to see a homebrew app for the ps3 that justifies why some people in the homebrew community felt they needed complete access to the ps3.

As for supplying an unlimited supply of fats? That's silly. I didn't buy a ps3 at launch, my fat doesn't have ps2 compatibility. I didn't throw a hissyfit though, I thought, "hmmmm, damn. Maybe if I would have bought one at launch for $600 I could be enjoying ps2 games on my ps3"

Instead of paying $600, I paid $400, and why was the price cheaper? Because Sony removed features to lower the cost. I can't play ps2 games on my ps3, that's my fault. Not sony's, people wanted a lower price, sony said OK, but these features are leaving. Then people again wanted a cheaper and slimmer ps3, sony says ok, but this feature is leaving.

The ps3 came out in 06, people had ample time to save up and buy one if they wanted it that bad for linux.

 

[fart town usa]

He's not talking about the Slim, there.

Originally Posted by PetriP-TNT:

so that they didn't have to keep supporting it as no-one* was using it and it was already removed from Slim-consoles.


*~99% of all owners

Yes he was talking about the slim model, he was referring to both models and I gave the exact reason as to why sony removed the otherOS feature from the slim ps3 model.

There shouldn't be any confusion as to why the otherOS option was removed from the slim. The slim model was available months before sony removed the otherOS option from the fats. The official statement from sony as to why they removed the otherOS feature on the slims is readily available on the internet. All you have to do is take 2 minutes and google it. I posted a link to sony's statement in a post on page 12.

 

[a.wd]

Yes it is fair. If the avenue that sony provided wasn't suffice, then so be it. Geohot wasn't being shy about showing off his efforts in trying to exploit the avenue that sony had provided and it ultimately cost everyone that had a fat model the option to run linux.

Nothing is ever good enough for some people.

Yeah you are right, its not good enough for me to use my system the way it was advertised when I paid my money based on the fact that Sony advertised it as having this functionality. And the fact that some guys were (for the large part unsuccessfully) trying to get additional functionality out of a system shouldn't be the basis for Sony removing functionality that I am using.

Did Geohots actions cause Sony to penalise everyone? I dont think so, but it might be true, however did Sonys action remove functionality that I use? definitely yes. Do I think that of the 2 Sony is more culpable for the things that have happened since then? IMO yes.

I understand that Sony has to take whatever action it deems necessary to protect itself, but if it had either worked with the community (you know the little insignificant people, who buy their shit) to come up with a better solution all of this could have been avoided. As was stated by the failOverflow team, they were not actgively looking into this until Sony took away otherOS. Not Geohot the guys who actually "broke" the system.

 

[blu]

Fair use to me is using the ps3 in it's intended function.

Could have never guessed..

It's not like sony was removing features left and right for the hell of it. I still have yet to see a homebrew app for the ps3 that justifies why some people in the homebrew community felt they needed complete access to the ps3.

Remind me again, did you or did you not say you were aware that CFW makes Linux possible on the slim? Or you just dont consider Linux a justifying factor? Pirates and cheaters 'em all, amirite?

As for supplying an unlimited supply of fats? That's silly. I didn't buy a ps3 at launch, my fat doesn't have ps2 compatibility. I didn't throw a hissyfit though, I thought, "hmm damn, maybe if I would have bought one at launch for $600 I could be enjoying that feature" Insteads of paying $600, I paid $400, and why was the price cheaper? Because Sony removed features to lower the cost. I can't play ps2 games on my ps3, that's my fault. Not sony's, people wanted a lower price, sony said OK, but these features are leaving. Then people again wanted a cheaper and slimmer ps3, sony says ok, but this feature is leaving.

The cheaper slim is capable of running Linux just fine. I know, shocking. And continued support of that feature those OtherOS users bought their phats for is not silly at all. You don't build computing facilities with the idea of running out of hw supply after a few years. The longer that hw is available to those users - the better (for them). Actually, I hear Sony did some "out-of-ordinary" warranty support for the USAF's phats..

The ps3 came out in 06, people had ample time to save up and buy one if they wanted it that bad for linux.

People buy things when they can/feel the need to.

 

[mclem]

Instead of paying $600, I paid $400, and why was the price cheaper? Because Sony removed features to lower the cost.

So, er, why was the price of the euro PS3 *more expensive* than that of the US one? No EE in any European model, although the first ones did have the emulation option.


Anyhow, you're latching onto the wrong thing, here. You're arguing that "If you wanted a PS3 for linux, you had options". Up until you *didn't*, but that's beside the point.

The argument that the proponents are making is along the lines of "If you have a PS3, you should be able to run linux on it.". After all, why shouldn't you? I'm not much of a linux user, myself, but I've run it on my Wii and on my DS; mainly as technical exercises, I admit (although having a handheld SSH terminal is reasonably handy!). Why shouldn't I be able to run it on my PS3? Because Sony don't want me to? I've run linux on lots of systems where the manufacturers didn't really envisage it. Why should Sony be afforded special privileges which those other manufacturers were not?

 

[fart town usa]

Could have never guessed..

Yes, heaven forbid someone being happy with a console that provides all kinds of features and for the features it lacks I was able to work around that with the java ps3 media server. Once again, and I'm sincerely not knocking the efforts put forth by the homebrew community but I have yet to see an application that justifies the need for the complete and total access to the ps3.

Remind me again, did you or did you not say you were aware that CFW makes Linux possible on the slim? Or you just dont consider Linux a justifying factor? Pirates and cheaters 'em all, amirite?

Yes I am aware that Linux is capable of running on the slim model. It probably does it in a way that Sony didn't design the ps3 to do, just as geohot was saying that he was going to create a CFW that would allow ps2 emulation. My ps3 fat isn't designed to run ps2 games, but I'm sure someone could come up with a way via CFW. It's a moot point.

The cheaper slim is capable of running Linux just fine. I know, shocking. And continued support of that feature those OtherOS users bought their phats for is not silly at all. You don't build computing facilities with the idea of running out of hw supply after a few years. The longer that hw is available to those users - the better (for them). Actually, I hear Sony did some "out-of-ordinary" warranty support for the USAF's phats..

Umm, new models come out for everything. I don't walk into a game store and demand to know why they don't have any n64's for sale. New phone models are released, new car models, etc. It's the same principle. New models replace old models. It's been that way since day 1.

People buy things when they can/feel the need to.

Ha, I can play that game too.

The ps3 came out in 06, the otherOS feature was removed in march of 2010. You have saved a 1 dollar per day for 15 months and had more than enough to buy a ps3 and a game or two.

 

[mclem]

Yes he was talking about the slim model, he was referring to both models and I gave the exact reason as to why sony removed the otherOS feature from the slim ps3 model.

Um, no. He was talking about why support was removed in the *firmware*. That's a very different thing from talking about why support was removed in the *slim*.

 

[hauton]

Gee, wonder if they're going to try using info they "accidentally" find to track down some people that watched the videos or talked about it as well.

Truly disgusting that the judge is allowing this.

Well I was waiting for this post... and I barely had to scroll down.

LegalGAF is pretty hilarious. If the judge didn't give them the legal right to obtain that info, what makes you think they could go do it illegally and have it stand up in court? lmao

 

[fart town usa]

So, er, why was the price of the euro PS3 *more expensive* than that of the US one? No EE in any European model, although the first ones did have the emulation option.


Anyhow, you're latching onto the wrong thing, here. You're arguing that "If you wanted a PS3 for linux, you had options". Up until you *didn't*, but that's beside the point.

The argument that the proponents are making is along the lines of "If you have a PS3, you should be able to run linux on it.". After all, why shouldn't you? I'm not much of a linux user, myself, but I've run it on my Wii and on my DS; mainly as technical exercises, I admit (although having a handheld SSH terminal is reasonably handy!). Why shouldn't I be able to run it on my PS3? Because Sony don't want me to? I've run linux on lots of systems where the manufacturers didn't really envisage it. Why should Sony be afforded special privileges which those other manufacturers were not?

The system was more expensive because of economics. I grew up in america, I live in asia. Why is a beer in my hometown 3 dollars at a bar but out here it's 15 dollars? That's the way the world works.

As for running linux on the system? I'm not against that and I'm not against homebrew. I'm against the way geohot and failoverflow went about doing it. It was so completely irresponsible and people are acting as if sony is trying to control gamers like puppets. Yes sony did a knee jerk reaction but I don't blame them. Someone was trying to hack the system, they got nervous and pulled support. Of course it sucks for people who were using it legitimately. I have my wii soft modded and there is a fantastic homebrew community in place. The thing that bothers me the most is the feeling of entitlement that some people have. The ps3 is by no means a walled up closed platform, and some people ultimately took advantage of it, when, in my opinion, there was no reason for that because an avenue for homebrew was already there.

As for why sony is the only company to cause such a ruckus? I dunno, probably because they're concerned with losing money and faith in 3rd party developers & stock holders. Also, and I could be wrong but as far as I know, the ps3 is the only console ever to be blown this wide open. I guess the dreamcast would be a close second.

 

[kamorra]

Once again, and I'm sincerely not knocking the efforts put forth by the homebrew community but I have yet to see an application that justifies the need for the complete and total access to the ps3.

You keep repeating that and I have to wonder if you change your stance on the matter if someday a app comers out you approve of being worthy.

I have my wii soft modded and there is a fantastic homebrew community in place.

Ah, forget about it. You are one of those guys.

 

[mclem]

Yes I am aware that Linux is capable of running on the slim model. It probably does it in a way that Sony didn't design the ps3 to do, just as geohot was saying that he was going to create a CFW that would allow ps2 emulation. My ps3 fat isn't designed to run ps2 games, but I'm sure someone could come up with a way via CFW. It's a moot point.

It's not quite a moot point, though. Linux can run on a slim through CFW... so... *what did those cost-savings on the slim actually remove*?

What'll be really interesting is if CFW makes it possible to actually re-enable the OtherOS option on a slim. If so, there are some very interesting questions I want answered: If the Slim was *capable* of running OtherOS, why was it removed? Was the Slim just 'sweetening the pill' for a planned removal of the option from fats for cost-saving purposes - *BEFORE* Geohot ever did his tinkering?

The ps3 came out in 06, the otherOS feature was removed in march of 2010. You have saved a 1 dollar per day for 15 months and had more than enough to buy a ps3 and a game or two.

Sure. If you knew in 06 that you needed to do that.

 

[Einbroch]

All you pro-geohot people, what would you do with homebrew? I am truly curious.

 

[Zoe]

It's not quite a moot point, though. Linux can run on a slim through CFW... so... *what did those cost-savings on the slim actually remove*?

A software or firmware engineer's time isn't free.

 

[mclem]

The thing that bothers me the most is the feeling of entitlement that some people have.

Just to clarify, here: You think that wishing to do what you like - within the constraints of the law - with a product you have purchased - is *entitlement*?