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[-PXG-]

Sony is not suing YOU. They're suing people who not only modified their PS3's, but made the tools and software available so that others could modify their PS3's. You did not violate the DMCA but these people, according to Sony, did.

I know. I'm just making a separate point.

 

[DonMigs85]

The government did get involved but there's also precedent for exceptions to be made.

I thought geohot specifically did not allow backups in his CFW? that stuff was enabled later by other hackers. They are probably included in the case as well.

At the same time there's no guarantee that anyone using multiman or something isn't just using it to salvage a system with a dead blu-ray drive or using it to store their games on the hard drive.

Hey, maybe instead of spending all this money chasing after the hackers why not implement legit game installation features like your competition did long ago?

But you still need the disc in the drive for this, so anybody with a dead BD drive is out.

 

[Massa]

The government did get involved but there's also precedent for exceptions to be made.

I thought geohot specifically did not allow backups in his CFW? that stuff was enabled later by other hackers. They are probably included in the case as well.

At the same time there's no guarantee that anyone using multiman or something isn't just using it to salvage a system with a dead blu-ray drive or using it to store their games on the hard drive.

Hey, maybe instead of spending all this money chasing after the hackers why not implement legit game installation features like your competition did long ago?

Right. Exceptions have been made but people have been screwed over too, like Dmitry Sklyarov.

 

[SonOfABeep]

Sony is not suing YOU. They're suing people who not only modified their PS3's, but made the tools and software available so that others could modify their PS3's. You did not violate the DMCA but these people, according to Sony, did.

Erm didn't Sony request info on anyone who tweeted, downloaded, posted, or viewed videos about this hack?

I think it's those kinds of things that have people really raging about this. The anger at Sony wasn't really started until we started seeing how absurd their demands were and who they were targeting with this thing.

 

[SonOfABeep]

But you still need the disc in the drive for this, so anybody with a dead BD drive is out.

right, I meant to assuage the people who are afraid of their drives dying or something. At least a few people in the CFW thread have posted that as their reason for wanting to use multiman, to prevent possible future problems.

I know it's at least some comfort to know that my 360's drive is not spinning/being used 100% of the time when i'm playing games. That's gotta count for something as far as longevity of that part of the console.

 

[Ilias78]

If all this guy did was hack the PS3 and show others how to do it he did nothing wrong. It is as if someone posted a video on youtube of how to turn your ps3 into a plane. Some people then use the plane to distribute drugs, kill people, etc.
Are you going to punish the guy who put the video up?

Personally? Yes i would.

Because lets not fool ourselves here: Despite if Geohot said that his jailbreak was created for other purposes than piracy, by giving it to the public it was like giving to other hackers the keys to pirate the machine to bits. He KNEW that this was gonna happen and he WANTED the publicity for it. Period.

I want to see how well he will pirate from the inside of a jail cell, with an inmate groping his arse.

 

[Shambles]

Personally? Yes i would.

Because lets not fool ourselves here: Despite if Geohot said that his jailbreak was created for other purposes than piracy, by giving it to the public it was like giving to other hackers the keys to pirate the machine to bits. He KNEW that this was gonna happen and he WANTED the publicity for it. Period.

I want to see how well he will pirate from the inside of a jail cell, with an inmate groping his arse.

Back to this dumbass argument? Wow. Alright time to sue Walmart for sellings guns, google for having links to torrent sites and Ford for making cars that people crash.

 

[Massa]

Erm didn't Sony request info on anyone who tweeted, downloaded, posted, or viewed videos about this hack?

I think it's those kinds of things that have people really raging about this. The anger at Sony wasn't really started until we started seeing how absurd their demands were and who they were targeting with this thing.

I can't imagine Sony going after their users but... oh, wait, I can.

I think they'll stick to suing the hackers and trying to use FUD on regular users.

right, I meant to assuage the people who are afraid of their drives dying or something. At least a few people in the CFW thread have posted that as their reason for wanting to use multiman, to prevent possible future problems.

I know it's at least some comfort to know that my 360's drive is not spinning/being used 100% of the time when i'm playing games. That's gotta count for something as far as longevity of that part of the console.

The biggest problem with the original 360's hard drive is that it's noisy and gets hot. Not only does it make your system louder it can actually help the RROD happen earlier than it normally would.

360 games also don't use the hard drive nearly as much PS3 games, so it's much more feasible to make an image of them to stream from the hard disk. Not so with PS3 games that already do heavy streaming from the HD.

 

[DonMigs85]

Back to this dumbass argument? Wow. Alright time to sue Walmart for sellings guns, google for having links to torrent sites and Ford for making cars that people crash.

Geohot is like a lion that killed a mighty buffalo, then he actually invited the hyenas and vultures to share the kill.

 

[NullPointer]

Whether I want to hack my PS3 because I'm bored, and install OFW after I'm done or backup (not pirate) 100 games, Sony shouldn't give me any trouble. As long as I

1) Don't pirate
2) Don't go online

They shouldn't care AT ALL.

And when it comes to fighthing piracy, let's be honest: The battle is already lost. You don't win by adding DRM and making things inconvenient for legit users. Adding value to your product and giving potential customers incentives, lower/ competitive pricing, flexibility and more freedom (with some semblance of control) is how you stop folks from hacking and/ or stealing your shit. It's that simple. Why add (or take away) things that are only going to piss people off and give them more reasons to acquire your product through unscrupulous means?

Nothing is that simple. For the life of me I'm having a hard time trying to come to grips with what Sony could've done to avoid this, or placate those who would seek to hack their system wide open.

They have the most open console on the market, with strong (or so they believed) protection, but still offered OtherOS support. Even with that support they got targeted, and when they felt their software ecosystem was threatened they eliminated that feature. This was then used as justification for not only cracking it, but distributing key info to allow others to run with it.

Imagine for one moment that you made your paycheck from distributing these games. How would you go about making sure the community wasn't driven to hacks that lead to piracy? Whats the simple solution here? Because from my vantage point they were damned if they did and damned if they didn't, which is why I don't understand the hate. Sure, some of Sony's actions can be seen as draconian, but what alternatives did they really have? If its impossible for them to discern the difference between custom firmware used for fair use purposes, and malware or pirate copies of games, they can only be reasonably expected to target and reject any custom firmware itself. Or do you know the solution they could use to automatically tell the difference?

And since the actual issue here is whether people can hack and reverse engineer anything they own, I have a feeling that any simple answer to what Sony could've done wouldn't actually matter, as people would feel justified in hacking the system regardless.

In short, there are way too many distractions to the core issues here. And no I don't care, nor would I imagine that Sony would either, if you took your PS3 and put it in an industrial blender. Its when you take certain actions that open the door to piracy, share those techniques, or otherwise adversely affect other online consumers that raises alarm bells and requires that some action be taken.

 

[manzo]

From the PS3 CFW firmware thread:

Geohot has a message for Sony http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iUvuaChDEg&feature=player_embedded

lol

Hahaha awesome!

Now imagine some Sony exec rapping back at him - some sort of epic rap battle. :O

 

[DonMigs85]

I know several people at the office who immediately sold off their original games and started pirating away once the USB dongles and later CFW came out, so if you multiply them by a million that's a lot of potential lost revenue.
And Sony really doesn't care if you physically destroy your system since you already paid for it anyway. You didn't share a software mod that could cost them a lotta dough in the future.

 

[kinoki]

Well, there's a few questions which aren't being talked about. Sony is shutting OtherOS-project down because it's too costly.

1) Would these "hackers" and "homebrewers" be prepared to pay a monthly subscription fee to continue the support of the platform?

2) Is it really unreasonable for Sony to block your console from playing PS3-games if you prefer to keep OtherOS?

The first question is something I don't really feel a part of so I'm going to stay out of it. It would be nice if they had a way to support development of the platform. Donations or subscriptions would be ideal.

The second question is to me not unacceptable. It's something that doesn't make business-sense. And I don't blame corperations for not wanting to lose money, heck, if I've learned anything from having my own business it is that supporting something that just barely hangs on is a nightmare product. It doesn't make enough money to expand it and it doesn't lose enough money for you to cancel it. Sony did a hard, and some might say wrong, choice but they did choose. However I do feel that Sony could actually face up to it and make any console able to revert back to a previous state. So, in which case you want to both have the cake and eat it you'd have to buy 2 consoles.

 

[Ilias78]

Back to this dumbass argument? Wow. Alright time to sue Walmart for sellings guns, google for having links to torrent sites and Ford for making cars that people crash.

Dont try to justify Geohot's act by making such comparisons. You KNOW about what im talking about and so does everybody else. Its funny to see so many people complaining about piracy, yet defending Geohot who has become the root of all (piracy) evil on the PS3.

You want piracy to stop? Then sometimes you have to eradicate the problem at its source. You cant have it bothways.

 

[DonMigs85]

Dont try to justify Geohot's act by making such comparisons. You KNOW about what im talking about and so does everybody else. Its funny to see so many people complaining about piracy, yet defending Geohot who has become the root of all (piracy) evil on the PS3.

You want piracy to stop? Then sometimes you have to eradicate the problem at its source. You cant have it bothways.

Probably too late for the PS3 now, but let's see how secure PS4 will be.

 

[vic2020]

I wonder will sony go after people who downloaded the hack from geohotz site since that hack itself doesn't allow piracy?

 

[lupinko]

Probably too late for the PS3 now, but let's see how secure PS4 will be.

Well they had 4 years of success with PS3, who knows with PS4?

 

[Ilias78]

I know several people at the office who immediately sold off their original games and started pirating away once the USB dongles and later CFW came out, so if you multiply them by a million that's a lot of potential lost revenue.

Exactly. There are TONS of guides on Youtube at the moment on how to make your PS3 a primo pirating machine. All because of Geohot's "innocent" jailbreak.

 

[Ilias78]

I wonder will sony go after people who downloaded the hack from geohotz site since that hack itself doesn't allow piracy?

Lol what is Sony gonna do, go after the MILLIONS of people who have downloaded the hack so far? They cant do anything. Geohot litteraly destroyed them on this matter.

 

[Yagharek]

Exactly. There are TONS of guides on Youtube at the moment on how to make your PS3 a primo pirating machine. All because of Geohot's "innocent" jailbreak.

But those people are responsible for their own actions. They are guilty of a crime once they actually go out and copy a game to their hard drive with no intention of keeping it (ie assuming they dont already own that game and have acquired it by dubious means). Geohot cant be held responsible for the actions of other people.

 

[DonMigs85]

But those people are responsible for their own actions. They are guilty of a crime once they actually go out and copy a game to their hard drive with no intention of keeping it (ie assuming they dont already own that game and have acquired it by dubious means). Geohot cant be held responsible for the actions of other people.

Unless they try to somehow equate Geohot to a drug pusher, lol

 

[AzureNightmare]

But those people are responsible for their own actions. They are guilty of a crime once they actually go out and copy a game to their hard drive with no intention of keeping it (ie assuming they dont already own that game and have acquired it by dubious means). Geohot cant be held responsible for the actions of other people.

You make a reasonable argument, but alas, many a GAFer are anything but reasonable.

 

[Safe Bet]

Knife manufactures are not to blame for stabbings for example.

"To be convicted of an accessory charge, the accused must generally be proved to have had actual knowledge that a crime was going to be, or had been, committed."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_(legal_term)

geohot is "smart" enough to be fully aware of what the direct results of publicly publishing instructions how to circumvent the PS3's security measures would be

 

[mugwhump]

I did that once. Had to report some dude, he had.... "hard candy" on his computer. I almost vomited several times over.

you mean like lolipops

 

[CaseyTappy]

I think I might have looked at a PS3 USB dongle thingie one time or another on Youtube , am I in trouble , is it safe , Sony ?

 

[Jocchan]

Someone should make a Geohot Cycle picture.

- New thread is posted about the Sony/geohot litigation
- Some members post snarky remarks cheering Sony or wishing geohot jailed/raped/whatever
- The same people from both sides enter the discussion
- The same arguments start over once again, from the beginning
- Both sides start quoting the excerpts from random laws that support their stance ignoring the parts that don't
- Rinse, repeat

"To be convicted of an accessory charge, the accused must generally be proved to have had actual knowledge that a crime was going to be, or had been, committed."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_(legal_term)

geohot is "smart" enough to be fully aware of what the direct results of publicly publishing instructions how to circumvent the PS3's security measures would be

And how is that different from knife manufacturers?

Dont try to justify Geohot's act by making such comparisons. You KNOW about what im talking about and so does everybody else. Its funny to see so many people complaining about piracy, yet defending Geohot who has become the root of all (piracy) evil on the PS3.

You want piracy to stop? Then sometimes you have to eradicate the problem at its source. You cant have it bothways.

Piracy didn't start with geohot's CFW. He's not the source of the problem. Your anger is misguided, sir.

 

[Ilias78]

Piracy didn't start with geohot's CFW. He's not the source of the problem. Your anger is misguided, sir.

Perhaps it didnt start with him but thanks to him, it became more 100x times more accessible. Now anyone can dowload the required jailbreak and other mod data on their USB stick and start playing games they downloaded from torrent sites.

Geohot was fully aware of what he was doing, despite his "innocent" claims. People have been wanting an easy way to pirate PS3 games for years now - and he offered them the keys on a plate. They just tampered with his code and voila.

And you are telling me that hes not the source of the problem? Please. If he hadnt made his jailbreak, this mess wouldnt have happened. He could at least keep it away from the public eyes. But hey - what youngster can resist publicity and the $$$ it brings these days?

 

[Jocchan]

Perhaps it didnt start with him but thanks to him, it became more 100x times more accessible. Now anyone can dowload the required jailbreak and other mod data on their USB stick and start playing games they downloaded from torrent sites.

Geohot was fully aware of what he was doing, despite his "innocent" claims. People have been wanting an easy way to pirate PS3 games for years now - and he offered them the keys on a plate. They just tampered with his code and voila.

And you are telling me that hes not the source of the problem? Please. If he hadnt made his jailbreak, this mess wouldnt have happened. He could at least keep it away from the public eyes. But hey - what youngster can resist publicity and the $$$ it brings these days?

Of course removing the need to buy objectively inexpensive hardware (we're talking about $30 dongles, pretty much the same price as DS flash cards... let's be real) made things much easier for people wanting to pirate, but this doesn't make him the source of piracy on the PS3. A cheap solution for piracy was already available to the large market before his CFW, and that's a fact.

 

[chrislowe]

Its not Geohot who is to blame if there is piracy or not.

Im sure he just wanted to show his skills, not to earn money (how can he make money from this?).

Its like saying the company who makes guns are responsible for killing people. Not the users who uses them (in this case, the people who download these firmwares and installing them).

I think we should give Geohot a break, sony should take some notes from this and make sure this isnt possible on the PS4.
the users who downloaded the firmwares should be left playing et on atari 2600 for the rest of their lives.

 

[DonMigs85]

Apple makes pretty big profit margins on their hardware alone, so I bet that may be one reason they didn't pursue Hotz as eagerly as Sony.

 

[Enco]

Perhaps it didnt start with him but thanks to him, it became more 100x times more accessible. Now anyone can dowload the required jailbreak and other mod data on their USB stick and start playing games they downloaded from torrent sites.

Geohot was fully aware of what he was doing, despite his "innocent" claims. People have been wanting an easy way to pirate PS3 games for years now - and he offered them the keys on a plate. They just tampered with his code and voila.

And you are telling me that hes not the source of the problem? Please. If he hadnt made his jailbreak, this mess wouldnt have happened. He could at least keep it away from the public eyes. But hey - what youngster can resist publicity and the $$$ it brings these days?

I'm with you on that one.

Not surprising at all that they want to sue him. If someone hacks your product and tells everyone else how to do it, you have the right to be unhappy.

Not supporting all the moves Sony has made though.

 

[mclem]

There are a couple of publicly documented vulnerabilities that I've heard of, but luckily for Geohot they all require unfettered physical access to the encrypted machine and... oh. Ha ha.

Oh dear.

Wait a moment - a vulnerability in an encryption mechanism? And if Geohot wrote the data inside, does he not have copyright on that?

Can... can he cite the DMCA?

 

[Tellaerin]

And how is that different from knife manufacturers?

If you want to liken this crack to something, it wouldn't be knives. It would be something like lockpicks.

While a set of lockpicks is arguably something that you might want to keep around the house for non-criminal purposes - say, helping out a buddy who locked himself out of his house, for example - they can also be used to commit crimes. And there are a lot more people out there who'd be interested in using them for illegal entry than there are people with a legitimate reason to own them.

Posting instructions on how to crack the PS3 on the internet like that was like handing out lockpicks on a streetcorner, no questions asked. You know there are a metric crapton of people out there who are going to misuse them, and that they arguably outnumber the people who would only use them for legal purposes. It's just an irresponsible, asinine thing for someone to do. You can't tell me that this guy didn't realize how this information would be (mis)used once he put it out there. And his actions don't just hurt Sony. Piracy can lead to publishers cutting back support for a platform, and online cheating sucks for everyone who's interested in legit, exploit-free play. For the people who bought their PS3's because they want to play big-budget, commercially-developed games (which I suspect is the majority of owners), 'Hey, devs may put less games on the system from here on in, and you'll have to deal with a lot more cheating and hacks when you're playing online - but that's OK, right? I mean, you can run homebrew now!' really isn't cutting it.

For the record, I think Sony overstepped their bounds with the attempts to subpoena the Youtube and Twitter info. Two wrongs don't make a right, though.

 

[Jocchan]

If you want to liken this crack to something, it wouldn't be knives. It would be something like lockpicks.

While a set of lockpicks is arguably something that you might want to keep around the house for non-criminal purposes - say, helping out a buddy who locked himself out of his house, for example - they can also be used to commit crimes. And there are a lot more people out there who'd be interested in using them for illegal entry than there are people with a legitimate reason to own them.

Posting instructions on how to crack the PS3 on the internet like that was like handing out lockpicks on a streetcorner, no questions asked. You know there are a metric crapton of people out there who are going to misuse them, and that they arguably outnumber the people who would only use them for legal purposes. It's just an irresponsible, asinine thing for someone to do. You can't tell me that this guy didn't realize how this information would be (mis)used once he put it out there. And his actions don't just hurt Sony. Piracy can lead to publishers cutting back support for a platform, and online cheating sucks for everyone who's interested in legit, exploit-free play. For the people who bought their PS3's because they want to play big-budget, commercially-developed games (which I suspect is the majority of owners), 'Hey, devs may put less games on the system from here on in, and you'll have to deal with a lot more cheating and hacks when you're playing online - but that's OK, right? I mean, you can run homebrew now!' really isn't cutting it.

For the record, I think Sony overstepped their bounds with the attempts to subpoena the Youtube and Twitter info. Two wrongs don't make a right, though.

I wasn't making a knife analogy myself. Just replying to a post itself replying to another who did, to point out it's not that different (both geohot and knife manufacturers should, in theory, be "smart" enough to know how their work will be used by some). I didn't express my opinion on the matter

 

[Pureauthor]

At the end of the day, the question boils down to 'Do you think it's okay to distribute something you know will be used for illegitimate purposes if at the same time there are entirely valid uses for that something?'

I say 'Yes'.

 

[mclem]

They have the most open console on the market, with strong (or so they believed) protection, but still offered OtherOS support. Even with that support they got targeted, and when they felt their software ecosystem was threatened they eliminated that feature. This was then used as justification for not only cracking it, but distributing key info to allow others to run with it.

There's an interesting side question I'd add to this, that I doubt we'd ever get the answer to but, well, it does raise some points.

Did OtherOS make it *easier* to find out about the inherent security flaw in the system?

I'm curious whether they removed OtherOS because - by the time the hacking had begun - they had become aware of the security hole and wanted to try to avoid people finding out about it.

If no-one ever finds it, the insecurity can last the whole generation, and no-one needs to know.

Sony have been touting themselves as having the most secure system from time to time. The followup question is: Have they been using this as leverage on third parties to favour their system?

Have they been lying to third parties? Did they remove OtherOS to attempt to cover up the lie?

Final question:

The reaction here is certainly more extreme than most other console manufacturers have done in the past on private individuals.

Is it misdirection? Is it trying to distract their licensees from noticing that there's another culprit in all this?

 

[DonMigs85]

At the end of the day, the question boils down to 'Do you think it's okay to distribute something you know will be used for illegitimate purposes if at the same time there are entirely valid uses for that something?'

I say 'Yes'.

Yeah, but so far these "valid uses" are boot managers for people too lazy to swap discs (I'll give them a pass if their drives really are busted and they can't afford repairs) and emulators that you could get on dozens of other platforms already.
Even things like MKV support are pretty minor in the end, and not worth the trouble the hack has brought to everyone.

 

[Zutroy]

To the people claiming it's their property, they can do what they want. I don't know the law to well in this regard, especially the US, but this is what I see could be the problem.

Yes, it's your property and you have the right to do what you want with the hardware, but you have no right over the software on it. You're just leasing that, which is the agreements you accept, right?

From what I've seen of CFW, the majority of it is original source code with some modification. Therefore I imagine it would be breaching copyright laws, as Sony hasn't given permission for you to use that code. Especially the use of the 'master key'.

The only flaw I see with that though is that Apple lost its jailbreak case, and I imagine that uses a lot of iOS source code.

Laws are tricky things...

 

[Hot Coldman]

hasn't he left the country by now

 

[shuri]

To be honest, I expect Sony to start legal procedures against random users who connected to the PSN using hacked machines any time soon now. Especially since they can tell whats on the hard drive of those machines.

It's only a matter of days, weeks.

 

[Polari]

Hope he used some strong encryption just to fuck with them.

 

[chrislowe]

I thought a bit about it.. what could be illegal in my life?

My Audi A4 quattro have a changed firmware, giving me an extra 40hp.
Audi hasnt still asked me to hand over my computer to them.

My phone, has a custom Android-rom that gives me some extra ram, and speed.
Google havent asked me either to hand over my computer to them.

I record things into my Motorola iptv harddrive, so i could watch it later.
Im not sure whats the difference to record a movie from television or to download it from internet?.
Im sure both are illegal anyway.
But motorola havent told me to give them my iptv.

In sweden we also pay a tax on every cd, cassette, vhs etc that we buy to cover up the loss of income from piracy. I guess this tax gives me the right to download pirated movies then?.. no it doesnt.. but i have to pay it anyway, even if like me, only buying my movies.

 

[-viper-]

I thought a bit about it.. what could be illegal in my life?

My Audi A4 quattro have a changed firmware, giving me an extra 40hp.
Audi hasnt still asked me to hand over my computer to them.

My phone, has a custom Android-rom that gives me some extra ram, and speed.
Google havent asked me either to hand over my computer to them.

I record things into my Motorola iptv harddrive, so i could watch it later.
Im not sure whats the difference to record a movie from television or to download it from internet?.
Im sure both are illegal anyway.
But motorola havent told me to give them my iptv.

In sweden we also pay a tax on every cd, cassette, vhs etc that we buy to cover up the loss of income from piracy. I guess this tax gives me the right to download pirated movies then?.. no it doesnt.. but i have to pay it anyway, even if like me, only buying my movies.

Audi aren't losing money when you modify your car. Neither are Motorola.

Sony's business is based on consumers buying games. If everyone finds out about CFW and pirates their games, what business is there for them?

 

[Man]

I thought a bit about it.. what could be illegal in my life?

My Audi A4 quattro have a changed firmware, giving me an extra 40hp.
Audi hasnt still asked me to hand over my computer to them.

You wouldn't download a car

 

[chrislowe]

Audi aren't losing money when you modify your car. Neither are Motorola.

Sony's business is based on consumers buying games. If everyone finds out about CFW and pirates their games, what business is there for them?

Audi could say that my modified car doesnt have any guarantee. Those 40 extra hp probably could wear things out quicker? and therefore if Audi should replace them they loose money.

And still the moviecompanys are loosing my money if i can record them from television, instead of buying them. And i can give copies to friends that missed the show, so they can see them?. They loose even more money.

but yeah, only Sony is loosing money.

 

[chrislowe]

You wouldn't download a car

This is about changing a firmware. Geohots changed the firmware of PS3.
My car has changed ECU (firmware)...

Why is geohots so illegal, but the car is ok?.

 

[DonMigs85]

This is about changing a firmware. Geohots changed the firmware of PS3.
My car has changed ECU (firmware)...

Why is geohots so illegal, but the car is ok?.

Because you can't run pirated software on your car's engine even after changing its ECU.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

At the end of the day, the question boils down to 'Do you think it's okay to distribute something you know will be used for illegitimate purposes if at the same time there are entirely valid uses for that something?'

I say 'Yes'.

Add
*and risk being taken to court by the owner of said software and security. You sharing exploits like that for thousands to download on your site is begging for attention and trouble.

 

[blu]

Audi aren't losing money when you modify your car. Neither are Motorola.

Sony's business is based on consumers buying games. If everyone finds out about CFW and pirates their games, what business is there for them?

The really funny part in that, is that you could hurt Sony just as much by just buying their consoles en mass and piling them in your backyard.

And then some people ask what's wrong with subsidized hw models..

 

[Ploid 3.0]

And still the moviecompanys are loosing my money if i can record them from television, instead of buying them. And i can give copies to friends that missed the show, so they can see them?. They loose even more money.

When movies are on tv they are already done with the customer profit model. Tv commercials and subscriptions pay those movie companies. Camcorder in movie theater is a better fit.