Sony PC Storefront makes too much sense

PhaseJump

Banned
I remember Sony completely erasing the success of it's first 2 Playstation generations by shitting hubris on it's customers with the dud PS3 and Vita generations. I remember PCs being root kitted, or infected with spyware.

They are not infallible. To millions of people Playstation is just a 3rd party publisher that makes generally awful, ugly, noisy hardware.

To think Sony has "leverage" enough to do this and simply succeed against all the existing competition is something else. Delusional.
 

Ozriel

Member
EA, MS, and Activision don't have the leverage or the games that Sony does..

How many Sony IPs are bigger in terms of annual sales than FIFA or Call of Duty? Both are on Steam.

But if Sony's royalties on PC are 20% compared to Steam's 30 percent a 70 dollar game could be sold on the PS Store for 60 dollars and still have a more profitable margin, not to mention boosting your profit on the PS5 version.

This is ignorance speaking, because Steam already does 20% for big publishers when their games generate over $50 million revenue. Capcom's PC games on Steam are pretty much already at 20% royalties.

Sony also has the ability to throw free games at people just to get them to download the launcher, not to mention PS+ membership if it ends up including Crunchyroll.

Aside from the fact that no PC Gamer will pay for online play solely for PS first party titles, where are they going to get the free games to give out when their PC library isn't deep?

200 million people on EGS since 2018 suggests otherwise, but sure go on tell me how much you know about the market based on your own biases.

200 million people, with a massive chunk being there to redeem free games. MAUs are an entirely different story.
They spent billions to even get that userbase.

#2 They don't have leverage on PC, they have PSN... do you know how leverage works? Sony can offer companies discounts on PSN on PS4/5 to support game sales on PSN on PC.

So basically lose out on console revenue to subsidize a PC store that nobody will use.

Imagine Capcom sells 10 million copies of Resident Evil 4 Remake on PS5 and PC. If Sony promises 20% royalties across PSN instead of 30, Capcom can make 560 million dollars instead of 490 million dollars. That's 70 million reasons to want to have your game on PSN instead of Steam.

Any benefit they get from paying only 20% royalties on PSN would be wiped out by their PC sales catering in sales.

Most of EAs games are generic trash, and I doubt their PC sales are nearly as high as their console sales. I'll have to take a look at their financial reports and see if they have a breakdown.

EA makes some of the best selling games in the industry, and while their PC sales aren't as high as their console sales, you can absolutely say the same thing for Sony too.

You clearly are out of touch with the market
 
I'd agree with you with this. The only reason Epic is losing money is because of they are literally paying publishers for exclusivity.

I don't think a PC store front for Sony would be a losing end for them. Maybe not as big as steam but it will be profitable and will only gain traction as time goes by.

That's not saying I'd like it to happpen. I'd prefer if Sony keeps their games exclusive to Playstation just like Nintendo. But I also recognize that them releasing games to PC would hardly diminish the playstation brand.

I would assume that Sony's approach to exclusivity on PC would mirror their exclusive deals on PS5.

Right now you see games that are console exclusive to PS5 but still come out on PC, I think that would continue, but Sony would extend their deal to exclusivity on their PC Store at least a timed one.

If Square Enix does end up purchased by Sony, a big part of making that worth it would be to ensure they're getting 100% of Square Enix's revenue rather than the 30% of PS4/5 revenue they currently get from Square Enix and the 70% of revenue that Square Enix gets from Steam.

I think the Bungie purchase may have been a precursor to that.
 

reksveks

Member
They're currently paying 30%
https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/30...rketplace-revenue-split-new-rules-competition

That will remain the case for the first $10 million in sales a game maker or publisher earns. For all sales between $10 million and $50 million, the split goes to 25 percent. And for every sale after the initial $50 million, Steam will take just a 20 percent cut.

I am struggling with the argument if that key factor is wrong
 
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How many Sony IPs are bigger in terms of annual sales than FIFA or Call of Duty? Both are on Steam.



This is ignorance speaking, because Steam already does 20% for big publishers when their games generate over $50 million revenue. Capcom's PC games on Steam are pretty much already at 20% royalties.



Aside from the fact that no PC Gamer will pay for online play solely for PS first party titles, where are they going to get the free games to give out when their PC library isn't deep?



200 million people, with a massive chunk being there to redeem free games. MAUs are an entirely different story.
They spent billions to even get that userbase.



So basically lose out on console revenue to subsidize a PC store that nobody will use.



Any benefit they get from paying only 20% royalties on PSN would be wiped out by their PC sales catering in sales.



EA makes some of the best selling games in the industry, and while their PC sales aren't as high as their console sales, you can absolutely say the same thing for Sony too.

You clearly are out of touch with the market

EA's revenue is vastly higher on console than it is on PC. 3-4x more. FIFA isn't a huge game on PC. CoD is certainly large on PC, but what else does Activision have? Sony has a multitude of games that collectively would sell more than CoD on PC if they were day 1 releases.

That's still nearly a million copies and again, Sony can be MORE competitive than that. Any revenue they get on PC is net new, and they can leverage their current royalties to maintain their overall margins. I was just throwing out a number to illustrate the point. It doesn't have to be 20 and 20 and it could be tied to actual sales similar to the one Steam does. Where PC sales could trigger lower royalties on the PS5 sales.

Sony is just getting into the PC market, but their console games are a bigger draw for sure, but MORE important that which is what you're missing is EA doesn't have a console to leverage.
 
Those games sold what they did because they were on Steam. See EGS year end sales for reference. Or any publisher that left and came back to huge sales increases.

You also don't seem to know that Steam is just the place the key is activated. You can buy official keys from 3rd party usually 20%+ off day one.

I'm not following your point here.
 

reksveks

Member
Initial sales are 30%, I'm glad you're ignoring that, but great.
What game do you believe isn't hitting that 20% level or even the 25% level.

Also you did ignore the fact it was tiered and I pointed it out that it gets down to 20%. Post #147.

Sony should release a pc launcher but you are making up random and inaccurate things to justify it.
 
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It absolutely is not a fallacy. Your whole premise is that Sony should do this because they'll make the most money. You're completely ignoring that PC gamers have no incentive to move. They'll just not buy Sony games on PC before they move away from Steam.

Sony's long term strategy is no different than what they're doing right now. Trickle older games to PC after sales slow down on console so that they don't hurt their console business.

They will not make more with a PC storefront because they literally could not move people away from Steam if they tried. PC gamers do not have any reason to trust that Sony will do a better job for them than Valve. Epic Games has been burning money for years with one of the biggest games in the world trying to win people over and they're not even making a dent. Sony doesn't have a game with the popularity of Fortnite to dangle as a carrot to entice people. Nobody is leaving Steam for God of War.

If games are somewhat cheaper on PS Store than Steam on average, have trophy and save support synced across PSN, AND Sony games that will certainly entice existing and net new PC gamers.

They're almost certainly going to make a storefront, so your idea of their long term strategy is just likely to be disproven. I think the only question is whether they have their games exclusive to their storefront or not.

Fortnite is definitely popular, but part of its popularity stems from being F2P and generating backend revenue and it certainly appears that the breakdown of that revenue is LARGELY PS4 owners rather than from EGS.


Less than 18 percent comes from the Switch, Android, and PC COMBINED... So the idea that Fornite is somewhat driving EGS seems like a bit of fallacy. Epic is a vastly smaller company than Sony, with their primary revenue coming from Unreal Engine rather than EGS.
 
What game do you believe isn't hitting that 20% level or even the 25% level.

Also you did ignore the fact it was tiered and I pointed it out that it gets down to 20%. Post #147.

Sony should release a pc launcher but you are making up random and inaccurate things to justify it.

We're not fully aware of the breakdown of many contracts. I wasn't posing an ACTUAL contract here.

My point was that Sony can match/undercut Valve's royalties and can leverage PS4/5 royalties to induce 3rd party support.

I don't know what numbers Sony would actually need to charge in order to make it worth it for them, we have no idea what the cost would be to be profitable (i.e. revenue - operating cost).
 
  1. PC gamers tend to hate publishers who try to force them to choose their platform by using leverage (such as exclusivity agreements).
    • Additionally, Epic Games Store literally gives away 2+ games for free every single week. If they can't tear Steam gamers away from Valve with that kind of leverage then there is little to nothing that Sony is going to be able to do.
  2. Sony will generate more revenue by releasing their games on Steam. If 2 million people would have bought the game on Steam while only 1 million people buy the game on Sony then that additional savings of 30% still means that Sony made less money than they would have if the game released on Steam.
    • Steam
      • 2,000,000 sales at $60/sale, with 30% taken off of that would equate to $84,000,000.
    • Sony
      • 1,000,000 sales at $70/sale would equate to $70,000,000.
Using the above calculations, and assuming Sony would charge $10 more per game on their own platform (since they wouldn't be competing with Steam/Valve and could charge what they wanted) would still result in Sony making less money on their own platform than they would by releasing their game on Steam. And by the way, I am being extremely generous by saying that Sony would even reach half of the sales they would otherwise reach on Steam. You don't seem to understand the magnitude of the Steam store or why people use it. Microsoft had every advantage on their own OS and still isn't even a competitor for Steam.

PC gamers don't want the stupidity of what you're selling. In fact, we find your fanboyism rather repugnant. Keep that off of our platform.

Sony might have gotten more money selling their games on Steam but they won't get any 3rd party revenue. You steam fanboys might not switch but net new users might go with what's cheapest and Sony can certainly undercut Steam prices with lower royalties/leveraged royalties.

Microsoft doesn't have the userbase it does on consoles to leverage royalties to the same degree as Sony. Their operating system did not give them much leverage to consumers either.

And again, I don't think you understand that Sony doesn't have to outdo Steam's revenue for their own storefront to make sense financially.
 

ergem

Member
I would assume that Sony's approach to exclusivity on PC would mirror their exclusive deals on PS5.

Right now you see games that are console exclusive to PS5 but still come out on PC, I think that would continue, but Sony would extend their deal to exclusivity on their PC Store at least a timed one.

If Square Enix does end up purchased by Sony, a big part of making that worth it would be to ensure they're getting 100% of Square Enix's revenue rather than the 30% of PS4/5 revenue they currently get from Square Enix and the 70% of revenue that Square Enix gets from Steam.

I think the Bungie purchase may have been a precursor to that.

If Sony can have a successful GaaS game or two like Fortnite, then there is a chance they might make their own PC store front.

I think that would be the catalyst.
 
If Sony can have a successful GaaS game or two like Fortnite, then there is a chance they might make their own PC store front.

I think that would be the catalyst.

I think that is being ignored as well. They are investing highly into GaaS.

I can't imagine they're doing that with the thought of sharing revenue directly with Steam/EGS. Sony is a platform holder not a publisher. Their entry into PC Publishing is just the beginning and I see that pisses off a lot of Steam fanboys, but it's the reality of Sony's business.

Does it mean that they'll be exclusively on their own storefront immediately? No, not necessarily, but I would be absolutely stunned if a storefront isn't their end goal. Not only is it a way to maintain their own revenue on their own games like other publishers want to do, but unlike other publishers, as I mention they are a platform holder, they want to generate revenue from other people's games.

I absolutely think they'll work their exclusive deals to their PC Storefront, I absolutely think they'll support trophy and game save syncs across PSN, I absolutely think they'll integrate PS+ into the PC storefront to generate more subscribers for their PS+. They could offer PS+ subscribers the option of their 3 free games redeemable on PlayStation or PC. They can invest in emulation and actually get value from it across PlayStation and PC.

There are many paths for them to take here, but paying 20-30% of this path to Valve probably isn't in the cards for their long term future.

But hey, I could totally be wrong.
 

reksveks

Member
We're not fully aware of the breakdown of many contracts. I wasn't posing an ACTUAL contract here.
Re the valve revenue cut, you don't need to be post anything more than the steamwork post on the revenue split.

My point was that Sony can match/undercut Valve's royalties and can leverage PS4/5 royalties to induce 3rd party support.
Yes, but that Valve royalties for most big games is not 30%. Its going to be closer to 20%. Can Sony go much below that? Who knows.

Sony can and should release a store. I am combating the inaccuracies in your argument. I suspect it will look a lot like the MS store in terms of policies and don't think Sony will have too many exclusives, think publishers have seen it fail with EGS.
 
Re the valve revenue cut, you don't need to be post anything more than the steamwork post on the revenue split.


Yes, but that Valve royalties for most big games is not 30%. Its going to be closer to 20%. Can Sony go much below that? Who knows.

Sony can and should release a store. I am combating the inaccuracies in your argument. I suspect it will look a lot like the MS store in terms of policies and don't think Sony will have too many exclusives, think publishers have seen it fail with EGS.

EGS is like 12 or 18% iirc.

Sony could say 12 percent, they could say 20% percent from day 1 or they could say 25% on PC and PS5 if the game is on both platforms. There's many ways for them to skin the cat here. I have no idea what the numbers would or should be. I'm just saying they have options to generate revenue and probably profit.

I do think Sony can work their console exclusives into exclusivity in their PC store (obviously at a greater cost). I think they can get 3rd parties to support the store just as much as they do Steam if they can match or undercut their royalty prices and give relief on PS5 royalties.
 

ergem

Member
I think that is being ignored as well. They are investing highly into GaaS.

I can't imagine they're doing that with the thought of sharing revenue directly with Steam/EGS. Sony is a platform holder not a publisher. Their entry into PC Publishing is just the beginning and I see that pisses off a lot of Steam fanboys, but it's the reality of Sony's business.

Does it mean that they'll be exclusively on their own storefront immediately? No, not necessarily, but I would be absolutely stunned if a storefront isn't their end goal. Not only is it a way to maintain their own revenue on their own games like other publishers want to do, but unlike other publishers, as I mention they are a platform holder, they want to generate revenue from other people's games.

I absolutely think they'll work their exclusive deals to their PC Storefront, I absolutely think they'll support trophy and game save syncs across PSN, I absolutely think they'll integrate PS+ into the PC storefront to generate more subscribers for their PS+. They could offer PS+ subscribers the option of their 3 free games redeemable on PlayStation or PC. They can invest in emulation and actually get value from it across PlayStation and PC.

There are many paths for them to take here, but paying 20-30% of this path to Valve probably isn't in the cards for their long term future.

But hey, I could totally be wrong.

And while were at it. I’d like to see Mac full support.
 
And while were at it. I’d like to see Mac full support.
I mentioned this. I think that's a large market that Sony should try to target, especially with their 1st party games. If Feral can get Rise of the Tomb Raider playing on Mac, most games should be able to get up and running.

Untapped market and Steam is largely ignoring it because they aren't developing many games themselves. Sony can lead by example here.
 

Soodanim

Member
I know it's all been said when it's 4 pages in, but it's incredible that someone is willing to go that far into something that negatively affects consumers when there's no personal gain.

This should be a good lesson for anyone who thinks the smart thing to do is to chase the immediate dollar, though. Keep customers happy and they'll stick with you. It's a factor that you can't (immediately) quantify, but it will absolutely make a difference in the long run.

OP's maths also ignore the added costs and hassle of running a separate store.
 
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jm89

Member
Just because you have a high revenue, doesn't mean you can open pc launcher easily.

Pc launcher is a long term project, and money sink, if they want to compete with steam.


They can do like GOG, and enjoy the ride. But that won't get them alot of big games on their platform.
I never said they can develop one easily, of course there will be a cost to develop it, this isn't some small company with limited funds if they want they can do it.

And like i said before they don't need compete with steam, pc right now is a supplementary to psn they will always have psn there biggest maker, they have the luxury of moving away.

People need to stop comparing to gog and epic store, sony aren't in a position where they are gonna rely on limited audience of there pc storefront. Psn store + plus pc storefront integration will be a massive customer base, and yes they can lockdown big titles for psn and their pc storefront.

Obviously this all talk who know if they deem it worthy to do it, but steam certainly won't be the blocker.
 

feynoob

Member
I never said they can develop one easily, of course there will be a cost to develop it, this isn't some small company with limited funds if they want they can do it.

And like i said before they don't need compete with steam, pc right now is a supplementary to psn they will always have psn there biggest maker, they have the luxury of moving away.

People need to stop comparing to gog and epic store, sony aren't in a position where they are gonna rely on limited audience of there pc storefront. Psn store + plus pc storefront integration will be a massive customer base, and yes they can lockdown big titles for psn and their pc storefront.

Obviously this all talk who know if they deem it worthy to do it, but steam certainly won't be the blocker.
"Userbase"

Its what generates money for you. If you are going to make a pc launcher, you need to have enough userbase, which can sustain it. That means more investment on the launcher, which results in burning more money.

Your example would result windows store.
 

jm89

Member
"Userbase"

Its what generates money for you. If you are going to make a pc launcher, you need to have enough userbase, which can sustain it. That means more investment on the launcher, which results in burning more money.

Your example would result windows store.
No it really isn't they same as window store, sony actually have quality games to offer.

Userbase isn't gonna come day one on pc storefrone, of course they will have to work on it. They aren't in a position like epic store giving away shit for free and burning away money.

Games like Bloodborne and demons souls exclusive on their storefront will be huge and bring in people.
 

Wildebeest

Member
In order to get PC gamers to leave the convenience of steam you need a game like Minecraft, Fortnite, league, apex, or wow. Uncharted is not that.
 

Bojanglez

The Amiga Brotherhood
I think the only way they can do it is by incentives, rather than pissing people off by 'taking things away' from others. So keep all first party games on Steam, Epic etc. but incentivise people to buy on the PS Store
  • Cross platform purchase entitlements (PC/PS5)
  • Cross platform saves
  • Discounts for PS+ members (basically make PS Store cheapest place to buy first party and maybe some other PC games)
  • Offer PS+ catalogue
  • Trophies
  • Make PC store fees more attractive than competitors (and reduce PS5 if publishers offer dual entitlements i.e. make it cheaper for them to sell games on PS5 by also listing in in PC store)
  • Ensure all PC games listed in the store come optimised for Dualsense
  • Offer PSVR2 games on PC
Sony would have considerable power in terms of being able to do deals with publishers based on being able to offer access to both, but strategically they probably have to respect the PC players and not be dicks.
 

feynoob

Member
No it really isn't they same as window store, sony actually have quality games to offer
Quality doesn't bring userbase. Also, MS games are more pc oriented, compared to your Sony high quality. Even them couldn't make their windows store attractive.


Userbase isn't gonna come day one on pc storefrone, of course they will have to work on it. They aren't in a position like epic store giving away shit for free and burning away money.
They have to do like epic. You can't sustain a pc storefront with minimal userbase. Especially with drops like Sony. Or they become EA, take 2 and Ubisoft, but with less compeling games.


Games like Bloodborne and demons souls exclusive on their storefront will be huge and bring in people.
That is just an internet meme. Bloodborne isn't gonna attract that much userbase. Plus you need to retain to those userbase and not lose them, after they finish those games.

EA and Ubisoft have subscription service, which retains their userbase. Take 2 has Gta. Activision has COD. MS has Halo, forza, sea of theives. While Sony doesn't have long term engaging game aside of spiderman, and maybe the last of us 2.
 

feynoob

Member
I think the only way they can do it is by incentives, rather than pissing people off by 'taking things away' from others. So keep all first party games on Steam, Epic etc. but incentivise people to buy on the PS Store
  • Cross platform purchase entitlements (PC/PS5)
  • Cross platform saves
  • Discounts for PS+ members (basically make PS Store cheapest place to buy first party and maybe some other PC games)
  • Offer PS+ catalogue
  • Trophies
  • Make PC store fees more attractive than competitors (and reduce PS5 if publishers offer dual entitlements i.e. make it cheaper for them to sell games on PS5 by also listing in in PC store)
  • Ensure all PC games listed in the store come optimised for Dualsense
  • Offer PSVR2 games on PC
Sony would have considerable power in terms of being able to do deals with publishers based on being able to offer access to both, but strategically they probably have to respect the PC players and not be dicks.
Essentially what windows store does. Aside of VR.

That is alot of money investment. It could work, if Sony is willing to do that (they would have to lose money on the first few years)
 

Bojanglez

The Amiga Brotherhood
Essentially what windows store does. Aside of VR.

That is alot of money investment. It could work, if Sony is willing to do that (they would have to lose money on the first few years)
Yeah to be fair I meant to put exactly that in the post, this is something MS have been doing pretty well, but even they have struggled to gain significant penetration, so it will be hard.
 

Ozriel

Member
I think the only way they can do it is by incentives, rather than pissing people off by 'taking things away' from others. So keep all first party games on Steam, Epic etc. but incentivise people to buy on the PS Store
  • Cross platform purchase entitlements (PC/PS5)
  • Cross platform saves
  • Discounts for PS+ members (basically make PS Store cheapest place to buy first party and maybe some other PC games)
  • Offer PS+ catalogue
  • Trophies
  • Make PC store fees more attractive than competitors (and reduce PS5 if publishers offer dual entitlements i.e. make it cheaper for them to sell games on PS5 by also listing in in PC store)
  • Ensure all PC games listed in the store come optimised for Dualsense
  • Offer PSVR2 games on PC
Sony would have considerable power in terms of being able to do deals with publishers based on being able to offer access to both, but strategically they probably have to respect the PC players and not be dicks.

Most of these will reduce revenue on the PSN side for a minority stake in PC gaming. Store fees are already decent for big publishers, a PS+ catalogue that includes PC releases will drive up costs for content negotiation and the vast majority of PSVR2 games will be multiplatform games that will also be available on Steam. Not to mention the likelihood of Valve completely dominating PC VR when their untethered Deckard headset comes out.
 

SaucyJack

Member
No it's not over. It's just that every other attempt at a PC storefront has been lazy and half baked. It's like the people running these companies don't actually play PC games in order to understand the many reasons why someone might decide to purchase games on Steam instead of elsewhere.

The moment someone gets it through their thick skull that they need to compete on features and price then they might have a fighting chance to gain some market share. Attempting to force gamers hands by removing/blocking games from Steam and and bribes have been proven to not work.



God of war delay avatar crew typing out fantasies of sabotage hoping someone at Sony is dumb enough to go along with it.

You think Sony’s PC storefront wouldn’t be lazy and half baked?

You've seen the PlayStation store, right?
 

jm89

Member
Quality doesn't bring userbase. Also, MS games are more pc oriented, compared to your Sony high quality. Even them couldn't make their windows store attractive.
Constants drop of quality titles will bring a userbase which is what sony have proven, ms pc oriented means jack shit when they've had lacklustre releases for years as admitted by phil spencer many times.
They have to do like epic. You can't sustain a pc storefront with minimal userbase. Especially with drops like Sony. Or they become EA, take 2 and Ubisoft, but with less compeling games.
This is such a silly take, you want sony to follow epics strategy which failed badly? No they don't need to follow epic, just because you have a one minded way of thinking how they can be successful on pc.
That is just an internet meme. Bloodborne isn't gonna attract that much userbase. Plus you need to retain to those userbase and not lose them, after they finish those games.
Sony aren't exactly releasing a game and calling it a day are they? They have proven they can release a steady stream of games and they have the most ips in development then they ever had and a lot of those will come to pc.
EA and Ubisoft have subscription service, which retains their userbase. Take 2 has Gta. Activision has COD. MS has Halo, forza, sea of theives. While Sony doesn't have long term engaging game aside of spiderman, and maybe the last of us 2.
They have multiple gaas games in development alongside their single player releases, assuming the gaas games workout they can improve on their user engagement.
 

Midn1ght

Member
Some people are so far up Sony's ass that they'd rather have games exclusively locked on a store controlled by a company notorious for overpricing, locking features behind paywalls and not giving an easy path for refunds. All that because "SoNy eXcLuSiVEs aRe tHe BeSt!", "TrOpHieS aRe BetTEr!", "MaH PoOr faVoRitE CoMpAnY nEeDS mORe MoNeY!"



"WTH am I reading?"
 

SmokedMeat

Gamer™
Sony can’t even build a decent store on their own platform. PlayStation gamers might lap up no refunds and paid cloud support, but that shit won’t fly with PC gamers.

It would fail big time.

And who gives a fuck about Sony’s royalties?? Gotta love people concerned about their favorite corporations finances, after they just fucked their fanbase over with price increases. Meanwhile they’re paying celebrities to advertise in a shitty commercial for their new game.
 
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T-Cake

Member
Seems like way too much work to release like 5 games a year on.

Battle.net and Rockstar Games Launcher both have a minimum catalogue yet mandatory for PC users. I guess it helps they have two massive multiplayer franchises which Sony doesn't really have yet.
 
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Godot25

Member
Sony PC storefront makes sense
In addition to Sony first-party games being on Steam.
Nobody can beat Steam. Even EA came back after few years and it is only matter of time when Ubisoft will also come back. Microsoft also has huge presence on Steam despite them having separate Xbox app with or without Game Pass subscription.

You can argue about quality of a games, but PC gamers are stubborn bunch. I personally know many people who are refusing to buy a game when it is not on Steam. Even if its a game they want. No Steam, no buy
 
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