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[Dontero]

Also why people keep saying Primitive Shaders are out when Cerny specifically called it out in his presentation ?

62 % larger Cerny said and we now know that there is 1 item thats not RDNA2, and Cerny has a patent on that, the Ps5 new geometry engine giving 2.5 effciency as people like 2.5 x things..

62% larger in transistor count vs PS4 CU not RDNA2 CU. But overall you are right because i read wrong when he compared CUs to PS4 and somehow i saw RDNA2 there for some reason.

 

[M1chl]

Indeed likely. But we would be back at speculating at this point.

Sure, but it's fun to speculate : )

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

Last part, guess ML upscale supersampling is striked out for PS5

tensor cores are not present in rdna2. I think what could boost performance is probably 8 bit acceleration being present. Ps4 pro had 16 bit precision acceleration, so it is conceivable ps5 has 8 bit acceleration too.

But even gcn can do machine learning.

Also why people keep saying Primitive Shaders are out when Cerny specifically called it out in his presentation ?

I think people are saying primitive shaders are less advanced than mesh shaders. Don't know if true. Or if they are the same thing with different branding or if ps5 has customizations to them.

 

[BlueXImpulse]

Also why people keep saying Primitive Shaders are out when Cerny specifically called it out in his presentation ?



62% larger in transistor count vs PS4 CU not RDNA2 CU. But overall you are right because i read wrong when he compared CUs to PS4 and somehow i saw RDNA2 there for some reason.

Why did you rush to this thread to spread FUD?

 

[DinoD]

The only thing that interests me is the why of it.

What would be the reason that Sony—roughly twice as important to AMD vs Microsoft—deliberately rejected RDNA 2 improvements that MS embraced?

If this is true I am fascinated about the reasons behind it.

Don't forget that MS started putting the AMD kit into their Surface lineup.

 

[Snake29]

Inevitably ended in the midst of a fierce controversy, the engineer clarified his statements to make people understand exactly how things are. His new messages, which are also private and unfortunately shared on social media, are very interesting:

"RDNA 2 is a commercial theme to simplify the market, otherwise GPUs with completely random features would come out and it would be difficult for the average user to choose," wrote Leonardi.

"For example, support for ray tracing is not present in any AMD GPU currently on the market. (...) The PlayStation 5 GPU is unique, it cannot be classified as RDNA 1, 2, 3 or 4."

"It is based on RDNA 2, but it has more features and, it seems to me, one less. That message turned out badly, I was tired and I shouldn't have written the things I wrote", continued the engineer, complaining that he received insults for his statements.

 

[Psykodad]

The same engineer who "confirmed sub-RDNA2" further ellaborated and actually clarified that it is heavily customized and actually based on RDNA2, minus a feature (probably VRS didn't make the cut after all).

PS5, l'architettura non è RDNA 2? L'ingegnere Sony chiarisce le sue dichiarazioni

L'architettura di PS5 non è RDNA 2 pura? Sono state trafugate alcune dichiarazioni di un ingegnere di Sony, che ha poi fornito ulteriori chiarimenti sulla questione.

multiplayer.it

Shouldn't this be added to the OP.
Seem people don't want to address this.

 

[FranXico]

The only thing that interests me is the why of it.

What would be the reason that Sony—roughly twice as important to AMD vs Microsoft—deliberately rejected RDNA 2 improvements that MS embraced?

If this is true I am fascinated about the reasons behind it.

First off, Microsoft is just as important to AMD as Sony - if not more, even.
Secondly, the PS5 GPU is also based on RDNA2, which means that the fundamental performance improvements over GCN and RDNA1 are also there. What it would seem is that Sony was more nitpicky about specific features and did more customizations over whatever the current state of RDNA2 was at the time.

 

[MasterCornholio]

The same engineer who "confirmed sub-RDNA2" further ellaborated and actually clarified that it is heavily customized and actually based on RDNA2, minus a feature (probably VRS didn't make the cut after all).

PS5, l'architettura non è RDNA 2? L'ingegnere Sony chiarisce le sue dichiarazioni

L'architettura di PS5 non è RDNA 2 pura? Sono state trafugate alcune dichiarazioni di un ingegnere di Sony, che ha poi fornito ulteriori chiarimenti sulla questione.

multiplayer.it

I found this part to be really interesting.

"It is based on RDNA 2, but it has more features and, it seems to me, one less. "

 

[Snake29]

I found this part to be really interesting.

"It is based on RDNA 2, but it has more features and, it seems to me, one less. "

What was already said, some of those features are developed between Sony and AMD and could end up in RDNA3 or maybe 4.

 

[ZywyPL]

This thread reminds me of the famous meme lol

So apparently as suspected VRS, Mesh Shading and ML aren't available on PS5, if so then the question is, how much impact they'll make on the performance? I guess we won't fully know until 3-4 months from now when the consoles launch and there will be multiplatform titles to compare.

And yet....

I always love great contribution to topics by newly registered Neo members, keep it up buddy

 

[BlueXImpulse]

What was already said, some of those features are developed between Sony and AMD and could end up in RDNA3 or maybe 4.

That is true but what he is saying actually is that you can't call it either because it's highly custom

 

[Panajev2001a]

So apparently as suspected VRS, Mesh Shading and ML aren't available on PS5

What is the basis for this (three features missing) considering the latest statements says “RDNA2 based with some features not in RDNA2 and one seemingly missing (replaced by other customisations possibly, unless he means the INT4/INT8 RPM extensions... this just means FP16/INT16 available for ML as neither solution take about dedicated tensor cores, the MS interview with DF actually stated they do not have dedicated Tensor Cores or similar, but the CU Vector ALU gets reused for ML computations)”?

 

[geordiemp]

I found this part to be really interesting.

"It is based on RDNA 2, but it has more features and, it seems to me, one less. "

So apparently as suspected VRS, Mesh Shading and ML aren't available on PS5, if so then the question is, how much impact they'll make on the performance? I guess we won't fully know until 3-4 months from now when the consoles launch and there will be multiplatform titles to compare.

Yes, Cerny did niot want no mesh shaders, VRS - hold my beer

Cerny changed the new Geometry engine, Cerny has a patent on it, and it seems to ditch VRS and claims 2.5 efficiency rendering

Created a new thread about it.

 

[Thugnificient]

This doesn't fill me with a whole lot of confidence when Sony's own engineers don't know what their GPU is lol.

 

[Thirty7ven]

So it’s what we knew already, a custom design. How could it be custom if it was off the shelf? Are the people claiming that XSX is full RDNA2 is actually... not a custom design?

Navi doesn’t have tensor cores, XSX doesn’t have tensor cores and neither does PS5.

I’m guessing PS5 doesn’t have VRS.

 

[FranXico]

So apparently as suspected VRS, Mesh Shading and ML aren't available on PS5

The original source claimed one feature is missing, and based on this, you are already extrapolating three features, without even considering that the customizations might also try to tackle the same problems in different ways.

 

[kuncol02]

Surely consessions have to be made in other areas if the controller and the ssd are superior on the playstation? I guess superior is subjective when it comes to the controller, but more costly seems obvious? It has a lot more tech in there. A rechargeable battery, adaptive triggers, microphone etc.

So if the controller and ssd cost more to manufacture, to be competitive price wise with the xbox series x, like I said before, consessions have to be made. It would seem the power of the graphics is where Sony made those concessions?

You can't have it all. It just seems obvious that the series X is going to be more powerful, surely? That's not to say the ps5 won't be a great piece of tech though.

Be realistic people!

It's not about controller, but about transistor budget. There is limited number of transistor to use in soc and that looks like Sony chose to prioritize SSD (bigger decompression module, cache scrubbers, etc) over GPU power

I'm not so sure if PS5 really needs ML, because checkerboard upscaling can look very good as well. XSX has ML on paper, but without tensor cores equivalent developers will have to use shaders for ML calculations. I want to see evidence XSX can benefit from ML in real games before I will start making jokes in regards to missing ML on PS5.

Look how Control works with DLSS 2.0. It's twice as fast and with better image quality. ML is also used for RT denoising on RTX cards.

 

[BlueXImpulse]

So it’s what we knew already, a custom design. How could it be custom if it was off the shelf? Are the people claiming that XSX is full RDNA2 is actually... not a custom design?

Navi doesn’t have tensor cores, XSX doesn’t have tensor cores and neither does PS5.

I’m guessing PS5 doesn’t have VRS.

Series X is also custom. They are both custom.

 

[MasterCornholio]

So apparently as suspected VRS, Mesh Shading and ML aren't available on PS5

Not exactly.

"It is based on RDNA 2, but it has more features and, it seems to me, one less. "

He only mentioned it not having ML. And then he goes on saying that it has additional features.

So isnt exactly an RDNA1.9 or an RDNA2.1.

I saw some people push the narrative that it's missing a ton of features even the perf/wattage improvement and hardware based Ray tracing. Turns out they were wrong.

 

[Snake29]

That is true but what he is saying actually is that you can't call it either because it's highly custom

True, hopefully Sony gives us breakdown on the GPU part. That would be interesting. In the end, I'm only interested in the end result. If that's the same in terms of performance/graphics in multiplatform games, then who are we to judge? After 25 years Sony really knows how to make consoles and in terms of new tech they were always in the forefront.

 

[Thugnificient]

So...does it have ML or not?

 

[FranXico]

Series X is also custom. They are both custom.

It's fascinating. It would seem that these GPUs are not as directly comparable as one would think.

 

[DinoD]

This doesn't fill me with a whole lot of confidence when Sony's own engineers don't know what their GPU is lol.

Unless I missed something. Where does it say that he's hardware person or being directly involved in PS5 gpu design? He could also be under the strict NDA?

 

[Thugnificient]

Unless I missed something. Where does it say that he's hardware person or being directly involved in PS5 gpu design? He could also be under the strict NDA?

I would assume a principal graphics engineer would know this stuff.

 

[BlueXImpulse]

It's fascinating. It would seem that these GPUs are not as directly comparable as one would think.

I would say they're comparable because the core architecture is the same but the feature set differs. However, I would say that it's hard to predict performance on paper due to these differences. 12 > 10.3. That is true no matter how much anyone tries to disagree. But the difference is the PS5 may perform certain tasks better despite the teraflops difference. Clock speed also affects performance. So conclusion is we have to wait for the games to see. PS5 may not have VRS but it has the geometry engine, so we just don't know

 

[Rea]

This doesn't fill me with a whole lot of confidence when Sony's own engineers don't know what their GPU is lol.

Because sony Don't have fancy names for their features unlike Microsoft. Sony really should have given names for their features.

 

[Clear]

This doesn't fill me with a whole lot of confidence when Sony's own engineers don't know what their GPU is lol.

Not really, he makes a point of saying that RDNA2 is basically just a marketing term for a collection of certain technologies. Its to help guide non technical people, but from an engineering standpoint it doesn't mean much at all.

 

[DinoD]

I would assume a principal graphics engineer would know this stuff.

Yeah. That was also my initial reaction. Perhaps so early in the game its all per case know basis (ie. he may only know things to the certain abstraction layer) as you can see from the leak.
Who knows. Perhaps wheels come off the Sony juggernaut.

 

[Thugnificient]

Not really, he makes a point of saying that RDNA2 is basically just a marketing term for a collection of certain technologies. Its to help guide non technical people, but from an engineering standpoint it doesn't mean much at all.

Stop defending his stupid tweets. He fucked up when he called it "between RDNA1 and RDNA2." Then he backpedalled when he realized it was a major screw-up.

 

[DinoD]

Stop defending his stupid tweets. He fucked up when he called it "between RDNA1 and RDNA2." Then he backpedalled when he realized it was a major screw-up.

Unfortunately. You are getting to hung up on this given that (and I assume) you have no technical insight or the point of reference.

 

[Thugnificient]

Unfortunately. You are getting to hung up on this given that (and I assume) you have no technical insight or the point of reference.

1. Calls it "between RDNA1 and RDNA2"
2. Rectifies "it cannot be classified as RDNA1, 2 or 3"

Next time how about not calling it between RDNA 1 and 2 and just call it like Cerny called it? RDNA2 based with customizations. Would have avoided this thread going 10+ pages.

I honestly just find it hilarious a principal graphics engineer would choose his words so poorly. Then again, English isn't his first language so it could be he simply didn't express himself correctly.

 

[Bojanglez]

So MS bought Super Car MK2 from the manufacturer. Sony Also bought a Super Car MK2 from the same manufacture but asked them to strip out or swap a few bits.

Or Both Sony and MS had the plans for Super Car R MK2, picked the bits they wanted and didn't want, asked the manufacturer to to remove bits or tweak as they saw fit. MS ended up with a car that was closer to Super Car MK2's retail spec than Sony.

My analogies aren't the best maybe, but something like that yes?

Oh maybe Sony took Super Car R Mk1 for a spin a couple of years ago in preparation of the MK2 release, in order to broadly check that it could handle the road in a similar way to their 2013 Super Car (OK I admit an already dodgy analogy definitely fell apart here)

 

[Thirty7ven]

Not exactly.

"It is based on RDNA 2, but it has more features and, it seems to me, one less. "

He only mentioned it not having ML. And then he goes on saying that it has additional features.

The thing is EA dev already talked about machine learning. When he said it didn’t have ML, he said Navi doesn’t have ML which leads me to believe he is talking about coprocessors like tensor cores. Which only Nvidia have.

 

[prinz_valium]

Stop defending his stupid tweets. He fucked up when he called it "between RDNA1 and RDNA2." Then he backpedalled when he realized it was a major screw-up.

But it's right.
We all know Series X and Ps5 are RDNA2, but the Series X has more GPU features.

How that will turn out and translate into real world performance and games, we have to see.

 

[Thugnificient]

But it's right.
We all know Series X and Ps5 are RDNA2, but the Series X has more GPU features.

How that will turn out and translate into real world performance and games, we have to see.

It's not "between RDNA1 and RDNA2" as he later clarifies. It's based on RDNA2 with custom features. "Between RDNA1 and RDNA2" implies it's more advanced than the former but not as advanced as the latter which is incorrect.

 

[Dontero]

Why did you rush to this thread to spread FUD?

Why did you assume that i rushed to thread to spread FUD ?
Do you feel threatened ? You can't sleep at night that someone post somewhere ?

 

[Rea]

But it's right.
We all know Series X and Ps5 are RDNA2, but the Series X has more GPU features.

How that will turn out and translate into real world performance and games, we have to see.

How do you know xbox has more features? As long as i can see, ps5 missing feature is only VRS and Cerny replaced with Geometry Engine. For better or worse, we have to wait and see.

 

[ZywyPL]

The original source claimed one feature is missing, and based on this, you are already extrapolating three features, without even considering that the customizations might also try to tackle the same problems in different ways.

Then how come it's all named exactly the same on XBX (AMD/RDNA2) and RTX cards (Nvidia/Turing)? it is what it is, VRS is exactly what it means, you don't call "resolution", "framerate", "polygons" or "AI" differently no matter what platform/architecture you're talking about, V8 is a V8 no matter if it sits in a Ford or Chevy, so is Turbo, Nitro and so on. For me it's very strange how Cerny was so eager to confirm they also have RT, twice actually, but cannot confirm the other features months after the reveal. Sony are obviously tracking all the debates on the internet about upcoming consoles, hence they jumped on RT confirmation so quickly, but are completely silent about the others? So yeah, I do believe PS5 doesn't have those features until proved otherwise, but then again, today's patent indicates that PS5 Geometry Engine is what will handle the tasks in a similar manner.

It's fascinating. It would seem that these GPUs are not as directly comparable as one would think.

Which IMO is a bad sign because than would mean that none of the devs will even use them, or at best in a very limited manner. Especially during cross-gen period.

 

[SleepDoctor]

Why did you rush to this thread to spread FUD?

Just pointed out the comparison was to the pro. You guys love throws that stupid word around any time you don't like what you hear. Just like the engineers initial tweets.

Nice alt btw

 

[BlueXImpulse]

Why did you assume that i rushed to thread to spread FUD ?
Do you feel threatened ? You can't sleep at night that someone post somewhere ?

I just don't know why you would say PS5 CUs are 30% smaller when nowhere in presentation is that stated. You would have to had completely skimmed through it to even deduce that. I hope your intention was not to intentionally deceive as that is a terrible thing to do.

Just pointed out the comparison was to the pro. You guys love throws that stupid word around any time you don't like what you hear. Just like the engineers initial tweets.

Nice alt btw

See above.

 

[Dory16]

The probability that someone went through the trouble of photoshoping all those tweets and PM screens just for the purpose of proclaiming information that is actually public knowledge was very slim, never mind that a PS5 senior engineer was tolerating them on his official tweeter page without denial. Maybe going forward a bit more expectations could be placed on truthers to provide a shred of evidence of the fabrication that they screamed to not have to face facts in a conversation. They got to completely derail a thread and personally harass a poster who did nothing other than provide fresh information to discuss on a discussion forum and this with absolute impunity.

Now we are being presented with "guidelines" on how to frame our discussion on something that has been factual and true from the beginning. As if we were being done a favour by being allowed to say that the sky is blue. So here's the precedent that has been established. If a topic is started with legitimate information that does not put the forum administration's device of choice in a good enough light, the device defense force is authorised to insult and ridicule the credentials of the poster, claim that he's a liar and fabricated tweets without even attempting to try to prove any of it, threaten his family, attempt to get the poster's source fired, the thread will be pre-emptively closed, the OP will have a ban warning and will be ordered to provide tweeter deletion links and tweeter chain audit artifacts even if the information is at the top of of the official page of a Sony official.

Also to be frank, who can realistically expect all those events to unfold similarly if the tweets were about how design on the XSX is seriously being held back by having to cater to the One S or the Lockhart?
The GAF mods haven't done themselves any favour in terms of asserting their impartiality with their handling of this episode and asking us to all get familiar with web archivers (especially if the tweet is not pro Sony I guess) I think is a bit bizarre.

 

[lepermessiah]

When you put all of your FUD in one basket.

Unreal.

 

[Snake29]

Because sony Don't have fancy names for their features unlike Microsoft. Sony really should have given names for their features.

Not really necessary for us to know. The reason MS gave it all fancy names, is because it's also part of DX12 Ultimate and they need to convince GPU manufactures that their api is the better then Vulkan for example. Sony doesn't have to sell their tech to others but they only share it with AMD.

You will see Nvidia and AMD will slap all those fancy names on their videocard boxes with the RTX3000 and RDNA2 GPU's, like DX12 Ultimate, Mesh Shaders, SFS, etc.

But it's right.
We all know Series X and Ps5 are RDNA2, but the Series X has more GPU features.

How that will turn out and translate into real world performance and games, we have to see.

Well we don't know that, and it doesn't really matter if the end result is the same. The XSX has more "raw" TF, but that doesn't have to mean that GPU has more features.

 

[BlueXImpulse]

When you put all of your FUD in one basket.

Unreal.

Unreal

 

[DrDamn]

It's not "between RDNA1 and RDNA2" as he later clarifies. It's based on RDNA2 with custom features. "Between RDNA1 and RDNA2" implies it's more advanced than the former but not as advanced as the latter which is incorrect.

It could imply lots of things, people just tend to take the implication they like best.

Given his clarification I'd say that the RDNA1 side of things is in addition to the RDNA2 elements and needed for b/c with the PS4. Cerny talked about this in the Road to PS5 presentation. Could be wrong though.

 

[JonnyMP3]

So MS bought Super Car MK2 from the manufacturer. Sony Also bought a Super Car MK2 from the same manufacture but asked them to strip out or swap a few bits.

Or Both Sony and MS had the plans for Super Car R MK2, picked the bits they wanted and didn't want, asked the manufacturer to to remove bits or tweak as they saw fit. MS ended up with a car that was closer to Super Car MK2's retail spec than Sony.

My analogies aren't the best maybe, but something like that yes?

Oh maybe Sony took Super Car R Mk1 for a spin a couple of years ago in preparation of the MK2 release, in order to broadly check that it could handle the road in a similar way to their 2013 Super Car (OK I admit an already dodgy analogy definitely fell apart here)

I've always liked the car analogy as a car person.
But yeah, to my rudimentary engineering knowledge, it appears that both Sony and MS took a base chasis and engine from a manufacturer (AMD) and went on different paths.

MS went for qtr mile drag racer. Straight line top speed at max horse power.

Sony went for a more balanced race car. Less top end BHP but has other extras to aide performance like a LSD and independent suspension to go round corners much better.

This is why I have no side in the console war. I like both

 

[Clear]

Stop defending his stupid tweets. He fucked up when he called it "between RDNA1 and RDNA2." Then he backpedalled when he realized it was a major screw-up.

Yeah the screw up was saying something that was going to be wilfully misinterpreted by console warriors like yourself and used to try and spread FUD amongst the technically non-savvy.

 

[hemo memo]

Criticism is not console warring. It is asking for improvement. It’s ridiculous the length some are going just to defend a multibillion company.

 

[Thugnificient]

Yeah the screw up was saying something that was going to be wilfully misinterpreted by console warriors like yourself and used to try and spread FUD amongst the technically non-savvy.

1.5 comes between 1 and 2. Nothing about console warriors spreading FUD among the non-tech-savvy lol.