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[Panajev2001a]

I love the narrative that 1.8GHz on a GPU is suddenly considered "slow" or "low", keep up the good fight guys

Are you trying to establish it? I see people talking about 2.23 GHz being very fast or much faster and the other being slower not slow. There is a difference .

 

[Panajev2001a]

Everything would still work as attended on RDNA 1, so it could well be based on that. It could have been a 9 TF machine. and they added smart shift. Dev kits with this first version would easily produce games we saw with the reveal . It’s not that of a out of the possibility.. has this happened ? Who knows.


But keep in mind the GitHub leak was also visible for MS and Sony , free business spying.

Again smartshift is just a part of their variable clocks strategy not the whole thing and I do not believe it was a last minute design change. You are putting too much faith in that “Sony panicked, GitHub was right” narrative.

 

[Psykodad]

Again smartshift is just a part of their variable clocks strategy not the whole thing and I do not believe it was a last minute design change. You are putting too much faith in that “Sony panicked, GitHub was right” narrative.

I don't get how people still don't understand it.

After all the noise-complaints, Sony wants a quiet console.
So instead of going with a tradtional locked frequency and variable power, they went with constant power and variable frequency.
This way they could implement a constant cooling solution.
So as a result, they could apply that smartshift system.

Seems like first steps you take in a design-philosophy.

 

[longdi]

Are you trying to establish it? I see people talking about 2.23 GHz being very fast or much faster and the other being slower not slow. There is a difference .

because 2.23ghz is very fast for a gpu. Somemore on a still 7nm, unseen before, and on an Apu, and Sony quotes variable even.
And then MS chose to market on the TF numbers
All this adds up the suspicions.

 

[Panajev2001a]

because 2.23ghz is very fast for a gpu. Somemore on a still 7nm, unseen before, and on an Apu, and Sony quotes variable even.
And then MS chose to market on the TF numbers
All this adds up the suspicions.

Sure, but after a certain point unless substantiated it does become very similar to disingenuous concern trolling especialy if stated as fact.

 

[PropellerEar]

Also had a hot dog in Naples, and guy said fries with that, and added it on top, and said salad with that, and added that on top. Was interesting to say the least. Had to eat the salad first, than the fries, and then got to the dog. I would like to think the PS5 is like that. Multi-layered goodness.

In Sweden you can get hotdog wrapped in thinbread with potatomash and salad. (if feeling fancy, you can also get it with shrimp salad)

 

[Dodkrake]

Everything would still work as attended on RDNA 1, so it could well be based on that. It could have been a 9 TF machine. and they added smart shift. Dev kits with this first version would easily produce games we saw with the reveal . It’s not that of a out of the possibility.. has this happened ? Who knows.

But keep in mind the GitHub leak was also visible for MS and Sony , free business spying.

Besides the point. Both consoles are 7nm+, meaning RDNA2. And RDNA1 doesn't have hardware ray tracing.

 

[Md Ray]

Both consoles are 7nm+, meaning RDNA2. And RDNA1 doesn't have hardware ray tracing.

Is RDNA 2 7nm+ confirmed?

 

[Dodkrake]

Is RDNA 2 7nm+ confirmed?

 

[FranXico]

But not the consoles.

 

[Allandor]

That is only marketing. 7nm+ might not mean anything, just that they are now more experienced with the 7nm process and can design chips a bit better for that process.
Even 7nm or 6nm can mean almost anything because different manufacturers have named their processes different (e.g. 6nm might be the same as the 7nm from the competitor, ...)

 

[Ascend]

because 2.23ghz is very fast for a gpu.

We should stop using 'fast' as a term when talking about high clocks. High clocks does not necessarily mean fast. And fast does not necessarily mean high clocks. Those two terms are not interchangeable.

 

[Thirty7ven]

High would be the correct way to describe them.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

That is only marketing. 7nm+ might not mean anything, just that they are now more experienced with the 7nm process and can design chips a bit better for that process.
Even 7nm or 6nm can mean almost anything because different manufacturers have named their processes different (e.g. 6nm might be the same as the 7nm from the competitor, ...)

I'm not familiar with this at all, but isn't it just a measurement? How could 6nm actually be 7nm and vice versa?

 

[sinnergy]

Besides the point. Both consoles are 7nm+, meaning RDNA2. And RDNA1 doesn't have hardware ray tracing.

They could have started as RDNA1 and moved to RDNA2 and incorporated ray tracing for example , but it would still be based on RDNA 1 legacy .

would explain the loud early dev kits as they probably where overclocked.

 

[ZywyPL]

We should stop using 'fast' as a term when talking about high clocks. High clocks does not necessarily mean fast. And fast does not necessarily mean high clocks. Those two terms are not interchangeable.

Technically, "fast" GPU = GPU with high clocks, "slow" GPU = GPU with low clocks. But it's all semantic, everyone knows what's what, right?

 

[FranXico]

High would be the correct way to describe them.

If someone says "clocked higher" there should be no confusion.

 

[Jon Neu]

And then MS chose to market on the TF numbers

Yeah, it's not like Sony spent half this generation moaning about their TF numbers superiority.

It's MS the ones who started the TF war, sure!

 

[FranXico]

Yeah, it's not like Sony spent half this generation moaning about their TF numbers superiority.

It's MS the ones who started the TF war, sure!

Not explicitly TF, but Xbox marketing has always focused a lot more on power, from its inception. Xbox and Xbox360. The X1 was the exception.

So, yes. MS have always been the ones who feed the machine grunt expectation the most. Which is precisely why the Xbox One hurt them so much.

 

[Ascend]

Technically, "fast" GPU = GPU with high clocks, "slow" GPU = GPU with low clocks. But it's all semantic, everyone knows what's what, right?

I dislike ambiguity in language. If fast and slow can be used interchangeably for both clocks and performance, deception, manipulation and confusion is a lot easier. Fast is generally more related to performance than to clocks. It's why we say an RTX 2080 Ti is faster than an RTX 2070 Super. The latter has higher clocks, and the former has low clocks, yet we never hear anyone say that the RTX 2070S is a fast graphics card and the 2080Ti is a slow one.

 

[Jon Neu]

Not explicitly TF, but Xbox marketing has always focused a lot more on power, from its inception. Xbox and Xbox360. The X1 was the exception.

So, yes. MS have always been the ones who feed the machine grunt expectation the most. Which is precisely why the Xbox One hurt them so much.

And why Sony went so crazy with the Teraflops narrative.

 

[TJC]

They could have started as RDNA1 and moved to RDNA2 and incorporated ray tracing for example , but it would still be based on RDNA 1 legacy .

would explain the loud early dev kits as they probably where overclocked.

Surely we aren't still thinking PS5 is RDNA 1 or 1.5, 2 lite or whatever crap people say. Who am I going to believe over MARK CERNY? no one is the answer.

 

[ZywyPL]

Yeah, it's not like Sony spent half this generation moaning about their TF numbers superiority.

It's MS the ones who started the TF war, sure!

Maybe not the Tflops, but the term "world's most powerful console" was indeed used until X1X showed in November 2017.

 

[kuncol02]

But it needs a very specific power controller for that to happen. So it's not like they can just flip a switch and make the clocks variable.

That whole "very specific power controller" is existing option for AMD APUs.

No, the variable clocks do not give credence to the panick theory. They wouldn't have bumped clocks at the last minute since that would have required them to come up with their cooling system also at the last minute; however, we know that the patent for the cooling system was filed back in May of 2018 (Link).

IMG]

Variable clock could means that they needed to make console faster, but couldn't make it use more power (cooling system was finished). That's prety much only reason for using technology like that in not mobile device.

 

[FranXico]

And why Sony went so crazy with the Teraflops narrative.

They went "so crazy" because it would nullify Microsoft's main marketing point for once. Yes.
Are you using the exception to try to disprove the rule?

 

[Jon Neu]

They went "so crazy" because it would nullify Microsoft's main marketing point for once. Yes.
Are you using the exception to try to disprove the rule?

No, what I'm saying is that MS didn't start the Teraflops war, that was your beloved Sony. That's why is so incredibly hypocritical for the Sony side to come in this thread and criticize MS for the thing Sony made in the first place as something so important.

But lo and behold, now the narrative is that TF don't matter anymore (geesh, I wonder why), it's all about the SSD and them bottlenecks™.

PD: Heck, I remember months ago everything that matter before the specs were announced, was the TF count. With every Sony fan wanting the PS5 to have more teraflops (I still remember the 14 teraflops talks).

All that simply banished into the air so suddenly. It's almost poetry.

 

[sinnergy]

Surely we aren't still thinking PS5 is RDNA 1 or 1.5, 2 lite or whatever crap people say. Who am I going to believe over MARK CERNY? no one is the answer.

It’s RDNA 2 technically, but it could have started as RDNA 1, how would you categorize the GPU if this happened? Just a question it’s all hypothetical. But if Series X started as RDNA2 and released as RDNA 2 what would this all mean?

 

[Portugeezer]

Maybe not the Tflops, but the term "world's most powerful console" was indeed used until X1X showed in November 2017.

It was kind of a big deal because PS4 was also the cheaper console. That is a lot of value.

If Series X can somehow be cheaper than PS5, then that is a big win for MS.

 

[FranXico]

No, what I'm saying is that MS didn't start the Teraflops war, that was your beloved Sony. That's why is so incredibly hypocritical for the Sony side to come in this thread and criticize MS for the thing Sony made in the first place as something so important.

But lo and behold, now the narrative is that TF don't matter anymore (geesh, I wonder why), it's all about the SSD and them bottlenecks™.

You must be very young, that's what I'm getting from your inability to understand what I've been trying to explain to you. I'll adopt this emotional language you are so fond of to make it easier for you.

Marketing consoles based on hardware power has been happening for decades, and as far as I remember (even before "blast processing" by my beloved SEGA, not Sony).

When your beloved Microsoft took advantage of the void left behind by SEGA and got in the console business, they used the superior hardware capabilities of their console (correctly so, I might add) as a marketing tool as well.

This "TF war" you are so focused on (probably because your sensitivities must have been so hurt in 2013) is part of an ongoing marketing trope of "this toy is so powerful, look!". Any company uses it, whether it is Sony or Nintendo (yes, even Nintendo used the SNES number of colors and sprites compared to the Megadrive as a marketing asset back in the day).

Your beloved Microsoft is using it so hard because they have the upper hand now, obviously, but not to get back at "evil lying Sony", as you probably fantasize. It's just because they have it and consider it their most important asset. Just like the PS4Pro was in fact "the most powerful console" until the X1X released, and Sony used that as a selling point, like every other company would in the same circumstances.

So no, Sony did not "start it", and MS has a history of using it more. Because they've been able to for longer.

Now, please tone down that passive aggressive "us versus Sony ponies" rhetoric.

 

[Hendrick's]

Stop trying to grasp onto the FUD. Let it go.

 

[Allandor]

I'm not familiar with this at all, but isn't it just a measurement? How could 6nm actually be 7nm and vice versa?

Well, it should, be different companies name their processes a different way. Like the 14nm and 12nm processes. Or Intel 14nm++++++... process.
There are many technical numbers in such processes, with a different outcome. 7nm TSMC is not the same as intel 7nm, ...

 

[DForce]

No, what I'm saying is that MS didn't start the Teraflops war, that was your beloved Sony. That's why is so incredibly hypocritical for the Sony side to come in this thread and criticize MS for the thing Sony made in the first place as something so important.

But lo and behold, now the narrative is that TF don't matter anymore (geesh, I wonder why), it's all about the SSD and them bottlenecks™.

PD: Heck, I remember months ago everything that matter before the specs were announced, was the TF count. With every Sony fan wanting the PS5 to have more teraflops (I still remember the 14 teraflops talks).

All that simply banished into the air so suddenly. It's almost poetry.

Using power to market a console has been going on for years.

In the 90s it was bits and now it's teraflops.

 

[Jon Neu]

So no, Sony did not "start it",

Thank you for your weird basic history lesson with the only intent of excusing Sony of being the ones starting the TF war (and somehow claiming that you don't have a Sony bias, but a Sega one, that was hilarious), but they are still the ones who started the TF war.

And that's why it's so hypocritical to come and blame MS for centering everything in the TF when was actually Sony the ones who made that narrative of TF being almost everything that mattered. Now that MS follows that narrative, are we gonna critizice them? When months ago every Sony fan here was talking about 14 teraflops?

That's the hypocrisy I'm critizicing.

Now, please tone down that passive aggressive "us versus Sony ponies" rhetoric.

I'm commiting a crime of wrong thinking, I see.

That's actually quite easy. If the Sony fans such as yourself stop dogpiling, reporting in mass and the similar procedures, then maybe we could have a forum in which people wouldn't have fear of saying something bad about Sony because of fear of getting dogpiled or even banned.

 

[Darklor01]

You must be very young, that's what I'm getting from your inability to understand what I've been trying to explain to you. I'll adopt this emotional language you are so fond of to make it easier for you.

Marketing consoles based on hardware power has been happening for decades, and as far as I remember (even before "blast processing" by my beloved SEGA, not Sony).

When your beloved Microsoft took advantage of the void left behind by SEGA and got in the console business, they used the superior hardware capabilities of their console (correctly so, I might add) as a marketing tool as well.

This "TF war" you are so focused on (probably because your sensitivities must have been so hurt in 2013) is part of an ongoing marketing trope of "this toy is so powerful, look!". Any company uses it, whether it is Sony or Nintendo (yes, even Nintendo used the SNES number of colors and sprites compared to the Megadrive as a marketing asset back in the day).

Your beloved Microsoft is using it so hard because they have the upper hand now, obviously, but not to get back at "evil lying Sony", as you probably fantasize. It's just because they have it and consider it their most important asset. Just like the PS4Pro was in fact "the most powerful console" until the X1X released, and Sony used that as a selling point, like every other company would in the same circumstances.

So no, Sony did not "start it", and MS has a history of using it more. Because they've been able to for longer.

Now, please tone down that passive aggressive "us versus Sony ponies" rhetoric.

To add to what you're pointing out.. it was the 16-bit era in general that began the need for these companies to add tech with buzz-words like "Blast Processing". It was all Sega. They loved to fire shots at Nintendo. Other competitors (Philips, NEC, and SNK) at the time were just as reserved as Nintendo was. I loved all of the consoles that came out at the time.

 

[Dodkrake]

They could have started as RDNA1 and moved to RDNA2 and incorporated ray tracing for example , but it would still be based on RDNA 1 legacy .

would explain the loud early dev kits as they probably where overclocked.

we started as sperm and eggs, but we're not that, right?

That is only marketing. 7nm+ might not mean anything, just that they are now more experienced with the 7nm process and can design chips a bit better for that process.
Even 7nm or 6nm can mean almost anything because different manufacturers have named their processes different (e.g. 6nm might be the same as the 7nm from the competitor, ...)

7 nm lithography process - WikiChip

The 7 nanometer (7 nm) lithography process is a technology node semiconductor manufacturing process following the 10 nm process node. Mass production of integrated circuit fabricated using a 7 nm process began in 2018. The process technology will be phased out by leading-edge foundries by...

en.wikichip.org

The N7+ node is TSMC's first process technology to adopt EUV lithography. It is unrelated to N7 nor N7P and is not IP-compatible with either, requiring re-implementation (new physical layout and validation). N7+ entered mass production in the second quarter of 2019 and uses EUV for four critical layers. Compared to TSMC N7 process, N7+ is said to deliver around 1.2x density improvement. N7+ is also said to deliver 10% higher performance at iso-power or, alternatively, up to 15% lower power at iso-performance. On paper, N7+ appears to be marginally better than N7P, albeit that comes at the cost of re-implementing the design.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

They intended to have the max possible frequency. 2.23 is the result.

You guys really need to read more carefully. Having a target of max frequency and seemingly hitting 2.23 GHz are not the same thing. There's no evidence 2.23 GHz was the specific target from the beginning. That's all.

1. Your posts are unnecessarily long.

2. I highly doubt that Sony or Microsoft ever plan for exact or specific frequencies. So, Sony may not have planned for 2.23 Ghz exactly, but they planned for a frequency that would be unusually high by traditional standards (a frequency that would be at least 2.0 Ghz).

1: I honestly think they're too short. You guys need to get used to reading longer passages, not everything is like Twitter.

2: They do. At the very least, they plan for certain performance targets and knowing the tech they're using, know what clock targets would hit that.

The second part of your post here just reaffirms what I was saying; they planned for a high frequency due to being locked in to 36 CUs, that doesn't mean they explicitly targeted 2.23 GHz. If you look at Ariel and, in particular, Oberon testing data, they show 2 GHz for over half a year of development, across multiple revisions.

Only possible explaination for them doing this if 2.23 GHz was the explicit target the whole time is that Oberon testing data was Ariel iGPU profile testing for regression. But that could be considered a stretch.

SNK

Lol no. SNK went even further than SEGA with that. Speaking on Nintendo...

This was basically a paid attack advert on SEGA disguised as an editor piece in their own Nintendo Power. Also, considering Nintendo had a vice grip on the American gaming market even into the early 1990s (to the point they were found guilty of anti-competitive practices by the US court system and had to give rebates to NES owners), no wonder SEGA went hard in their ads xD.

 

[PharaoTutAnchAmun]

Definitely, especially if you consider that they had to have the design of the cooling system finalized or at least nearly finalized before filing the patent, which means that they started designing the cooling system in either late 2017 or early 2018. So, it seems that they intended to incorporate high clock speeds very, very early.

No i dont think so. They knew about the heating /cooling problems from the PS4 (Pro). They knew the new hardware would be significant hotter. (The new GPU and CPU producing more heat than de PS4 processors) And they did not want to have the same problem so they design a new coolingsystem to take care with that problem. It has nothing do do with your assumtion.

 

[FranXico]

You guys really need to read more carefully. Having a target of max frequency and seemingly hitting 2.23 GHz are not the same thing. There's no evidence 2.23 GHz was the specific target from the beginning. That's all.

The presentation implied that they did try to go even higher.

 

[lepermessiah]

I think everyone needs to do some revision with Cerny's talk, he gave very valid justification for the "TFs are not the sole metric for performance argument", things are more nuanced now with smarter engineering choices and I/O efficiencies, etc. The most brute forced, thickest milk shake in the world is still thwarted by a thin straw.

 

[SlimySnake]

No, what I'm saying is that MS didn't start the Teraflops war, that was your beloved Sony. That's why is so incredibly hypocritical for the Sony side to come in this thread and criticize MS for the thing Sony made in the first place as something so important.

But lo and behold, now the narrative is that TF don't matter anymore (geesh, I wonder why), it's all about the SSD and them bottlenecks™.

PD: Heck, I remember months ago everything that matter before the specs were announced, was the TF count. With every Sony fan wanting the PS5 to have more teraflops (I still remember the 14 teraflops talks).

All that simply banished into the air so suddenly. It's almost poetry.

Alright. here is a Sony fan. Tflops matter and will always be the most important metric to calculate the raw power of a console. XSX has the most tflops and is the most powerful console.

Are you now going to stop getting upset whenever some sony fan brings up the SSD and I/O improvements? To me, it's obvious that they are looking at whats best about their console and hoping for it to be utilized in game. You look at that and think 'omg, they are downplaying my xbox'. I dont see why you are so obsessed with the posting habits of some Sony fans. I could technically say the same thing about xbox fans downplaying I/O improvements, but I have better things to do than obsess over other poster's posting habits.

This persecution complex you people have is silly. Let it go. You should be secure enough about your specs to be able to look at someone downplaying them and look past it. You already have the bigger dick, why are you so concerned with everyone else. That just screams insecurity.

P.S If SSD and I/O improvements didnt matter, MS wouldnt have gone through the trouble of coining the term velocity architecture. they wouldnt have spent so much time explaining their SFS and I/O hardware. They wouldnt have written several different articles explaining how their SSD can do up to 6 GBps. They are doing it because they know it matters. Just how much remains to be seen, but it's the single biggest leap in I/O in 30 years. Of course, it matters. The benefits wont be easily quantifiable as tflops are to graphics, but this isnt some useless tech.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

The presentation implied that they did try to go even higher.

No, the presentation mentioned that they had to cap at 2.23 GHz or else the chip logic would fail/become unstable. So that's already the peak they can do on 7nm DUV enhanced with that silicon.

how much remains to be seen, but it's the single biggest leap in I/O in 30 years.

Hm, that's debatable. Seeing that we're basically playing the games off SSDs now, you also have to factor in storage mediums here too. Going from platter drives to SSDs is a massive leap, but I'd argue actual ROM and RAM cartridge expansions of older systems like SNES and Saturn have some benefits over the SSDs we will be getting now.

Particularly, they still will have advantage of lower latency, and longer-term data retention (ROM cartridges). And more direct access to data in the ROM as a natural expansion of RAM space (though Sony and in particular Microsoft are doing what they can to bring those concepts to their SSD I/O systems, FWIW).

 

[FranXico]

No, the presentation mentioned that they had to cap at 2.23 GHz or else the chip logic would fail/become unstable. So that's already the peak they can do on 7nm DUV enhanced with that silicon.

Yes, I was referring to that. They're at the limit already at 2.23GHz. They would have gone higher, but the silicon wouldn't stand it.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Only possible explaination for them doing this if 2.23 GHz was the explicit target the whole time is that Oberon testing data was Ariel iGPU profile testing for regression. But that could be considered a stretch.

Due to GDDR and NAND cost, along with I/O complex (which has two coprocessors) it makes sense to read 36 CU as the plan from the beginning. They had their priorities, and having the largest GPU they could fit in a console wasn't number one.

GIThub tells us they were aiming for high clocks, and as Mark Cerny stated in road to PS5, knowing the roadmap they also knew how much perf per watt they would theoretically get from RDNA2. But it's hard to clock something high when you're selling a console and working around the expectation of low power consumption and low noise levels.

I don't think 2.23GHz was ever the target, neither was 2Ghz. They wanted to stretch it as much as they could and this is where they landed. It was a risky strategy in my opinion, but we will know once the prices are announced if it paid off or not.

P.S If SSD and I/O improvements didnt matter, MS wouldnt have gone through the trouble of coining the term velocity architecture. they wouldnt have spent so much time explaining their SFS and I/O hardware. They wouldnt have written several different articles explaining how their SSD can do up to 6 GBps. They are doing it because they know it matters. Just how much remains to be seen, but it's the single biggest leap in I/O in 30 years. Of course, it matters. The benefits wont be easily quantifiable as tflops are to graphics, but this isnt some useless tech.

It's clear that it matters. PS5 is just from a design perspective hyper focused on I/O, and that is one of the reasons why devs love it.

 

[Jon Neu]

Are you now going to stop getting upset whenever some sony fan brings up the SSD and I/O improvements?

I have never got upset by that.

Actually, I think all the SSD talk is kind of fascinating (when you mentally erase all the fanboyish/marketing stuff that comes with it).

Remember, this conversation started because I quoted this:

And then MS chose to market on the TF numbers
All this adds up the suspicions.

And I simply said that MS didn't "chose" to market TF numbers, that narrative of TF being all that matters was installed by Sony and MS simply are going along with it. Hell, they probably targeted such a high TF number because of it.

And now that Sony doesn't have the TF advantage, suddenly the narrative changes and everyone who concentrates on the TF count is bad, when just some months ago the PS5 having 14 teraflops was all that mattered.

When my favourite company does it is good, when the rival does it, it's bad, and weird and suspicious. That's the hypocrisy I was critizing.

This persecution complex you people have is silly. Let it go. You should be secure enough about your specs to be able to look at someone downplaying them and look past it. You already have the bigger dick, why are you so concerned with everyone else. That just screams insecurity.

I don't even care that much which console is more powerful, they are probably in a similar ballpark anyway.

I just hate double standards and abuses of power.

 

[SlimySnake]

No, the presentation mentioned that they had to cap at 2.23 GHz or else the chip logic would fail/become unstable. So that's already the peak they can do on 7nm DUV enhanced with that silicon.



Hm, that's debatable. Seeing that we're basically playing the games off SSDs now, you also have to factor in storage mediums here too. Going from platter drives to SSDs is a massive leap, but I'd argue actual ROM and RAM cartridge expansions of older systems like SNES and Saturn have some benefits over the SSDs we will be getting now.

Particularly, they still will have advantage of lower latency, and longer-term data retention (ROM cartridges). And more direct access to data in the ROM as a natural expansion of RAM space (though Sony and in particular Microsoft are doing what they can to bring those concepts to their SSD I/O systems, FWIW).

i was comparing it to the CD drives in PS One. SO i guess more like 26 years.

yes, cartridges were better than CD drives and im glad we are going back to that kind of immediacy.

 

[NoMoChokeSJ]

Alright. here is a Sony fan. Tflops matter and will always be the most important metric to calculate the raw power of a console. XSX has the most tflops and is the most powerful console.

Are you now going to stop getting upset whenever some sony fan brings up the SSD and I/O improvements? To me, it's obvious that they are looking at whats best about their console and hoping for it to be utilized in game. You look at that and think 'omg, they are downplaying my xbox'. I dont see why you are so obsessed with the posting habits of some Sony fans. I could technically say the same thing about xbox fans downplaying I/O improvements, but I have better things to do than obsess over other poster's posting habits.

This persecution complex you people have is silly. Let it go. You should be secure enough about your specs to be able to look at someone downplaying them and look past it. You already have the bigger dick, why are you so concerned with everyone else. That just screams insecurity.

P.S If SSD and I/O improvements didnt matter, MS wouldnt have gone through the trouble of coining the term velocity architecture. they wouldnt have spent so much time explaining their SFS and I/O hardware. They wouldnt have written several different articles explaining how their SSD can do up to 6 GBps. They are doing it because they know it matters. Just how much remains to be seen, but it's the single biggest leap in I/O in 30 years. Of course, it matters. The benefits wont be easily quantifiable as tflops are to graphics, but this isnt some useless tech.

Its awesome when people come to defense of a product and then tell others they gave a persecution process, lol.

As for the Sony i/o solution being the single biggest i/o solution in 30 years... We'll see. Whatever end up the most widely adopted will be what matters in the long run. This is where MS development and Sony differ.. MS's long game isn't is xbox, but software as a whole.

Also, MS is writing articles on SFS? I get the video, but the articles are coming from gaming "jouralist". And I imagine the drive is because of the SSD hype from Sony fans. I would actually say that MS seems to shrug off anything thrown towards at them and say we have a way to close the ssd gap and still have the more powerful console. MS seems like the more confident messenger so far.

 

[psorcerer]

There's no evidence 2.23 GHz was the specific target from the beginning. That's all

There is no evidence that such clock can be hit with anything less than RDNA2 on 7nm.

 

[Darklor01]

Lol no. SNK went even further than SEGA with that. Speaking on Nintendo...

This was basically a paid attack advert on SEGA disguised as an editor piece in their own Nintendo Power. Also, considering Nintendo had a vice grip on the American gaming market even into the early 1990s (to the point they were found guilty of anti-competitive practices by the US court system and had to give rebates to NES owners), no wonder SEGA went hard in their ads xD.

Well damn! I sit corrected!! Thanks for this .. I hate spreading misinformation, even by accident.

 

[FranXico]

Lol no. SNK went even further than SEGA with that. Speaking on Nintendo...

This was basically a paid attack advert on SEGA disguised as an editor piece in their own Nintendo Power. Also, considering Nintendo had a vice grip on the American gaming market even into the early 1990s (to the point they were found guilty of anti-competitive practices by the US court system and had to give rebates to NES owners), no wonder SEGA went hard in their ads xD.

LOL, good find. Basically EVERYBODY has done that.

 

[GODbody]

I think everyone needs to do some revision with Cerny's talk, he gave very valid justification for the "TFs are not the sole metric for performance argument", things are more nuanced now with smarter engineering choices and I/O efficiencies, etc. The most brute forced, thickest milk shake in the world is still thwarted by a thin straw.

Cerny's talk was marketing for a PS5. We went from PS4 has higher TF than an Xbox One to TF doesn't matter SSD bandwidth is paramount on PS5 vs Series X. They even had that weird 10 minute segway as apart of the road to PS5 where Cerny was implying that Higher clocks beat higher core counts using a 36 core 1 ghz gpu and a 48 core 0.75 ghz gpu as an example. If TF doesn't matter why even make this comparison? Sony created this TF narative in the first place now it suddenly doesn't matter when they don't have the advantage? Also the PS5 clock speeds are peak speeds not average speeds since TFs don't tell the whole story why aren't we getting the whole story on PS5'S clockspeeds?

I don't think it was a rushed decision to utilize variable clocks but the reality of the situation is that they needed to keep their core count close to that of the PS4Pro so they could run back compatability. They could have had more compute units to increase their TF but chose not to for this reason. We saw from the leaks in December that they had compatibility profiles for the GPU clocked at the exact same speeds as the PS4 and PS4 Pro. This worked out great since they weren't spending so much on the GPU they could spend more money on bumping up their SSD bandwidth. Not that any of this is a bad thing just the facts of the situation.

As for the RDNA 1.5 comment thats another story. Likely one that involves with them starting development of their architecture earlier. The Github leaks from December have been spot on so far so I don't see any reason to doubt them

Per digital foundry

Testing and validating a chip to ensure that it meets performance targets and that it passes debugging is in itself a lengthy process - and making changes to the architecture of the chip at this point is unlikely. Tweaks to clock speeds or accompanying memory are a possibility but the timeline we have suggests that Sony already took the decision to push GPU clock speeds higher by the time the leaked testing took place.