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[expy]

Good for Hotz's attorney I guess? I want to see the outcome. I don't really care what they say.

 

[mf.luder]

I hope South Park comes on soon with episodes around this issue.

 

[jcm]

Here's Ars' story on this: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/...matched-serial-numbers-and-sealed-manuals.ars

One of the major parts of THIS is that it shows the picture that was presented in the documents:

Of course, this is a story link I found on N4G, and we all know how bad THAT site has become about this story:

Have no idea how he got all that from a WIKIPEDIA article!

But, to one of MY posts there:

And...

I think I provided a link to this N4G page. ALL of the comment sections there have been like this....nearly EVERY! SINGLE! COMMENT! Without actually LOOKING at what they're citing, or knowing what they are talking about. I mean, I know I'm not the most knowledgeable person in the world, but c'mon.

As for the serial numbers, the fact that it was SONY that provided the EXACT serial number without any clear indication that a few numbers might be off or that the last few digits wouldn't matter is a sign that you tried to pull one over on people, provided that it holds up.

Also, I read that ENTIRE PDF document that the OP linked. Yeah, it's lawyer talk, but they really sound convincing, and they seem to be saying things that make a ton of sense. There was no way Hotz could've controlled where the CFW went to. He created it in NJ, and Sony, according to them, tried to be dodgy and go behind their backs and exaggerate stuff, and say things that they cannot prove with admissible evidence in court.

I think Sony needs to be quick to answer these charges, because those charges are pretty damning.

I don't understand this post at all. You were wrong. People pointed out you were wrong. Your think your wrongness is a charge Sony needs to answer?

Edit: Just in case it's not clear which part is the serial number:

 

[DryvBy]

I love how I can comb through and post so much shit that SCEA is trying to pull and yet, rather than say a bunch of people shouldn't have jumped on Hotz, we get stuff like this. That's not personally against you chub I just know there will be many more posts repeating and have been two already now.

It really doesn't matter if he knew they existed, the argument that he wouldn't be directing the statement at them, as they have nothing to do with the actual PS3 OR the firmware, still stands.

I'm not even talking about this case but I find it funny that Geohot can claim this. He broke security features, but had no idea Sony's PS3 might be stationed in the states? I mean, is this why so-called evolved modern man can't drink coffee without a label because he can't figure coffee is hot?

I'm 100% against Sony in this case, as I find it stupid that I can't hack my system and do what I want with it. The customer should be allowed to have an EULA of their own that states by taking my money, you agree this system is mine and I can do what I want with it.

 

[poppabk]

As for the serial numbers, the fact that it was SONY that provided the EXACT serial number without any clear indication that a few numbers might be off or that the last few digits wouldn't matter is a sign that you tried to pull one over on people, provided that it holds up.

No this is a sign that they are not trying to 'pull one over on people' as they submitted exactly what they recorded and didn't remove the part number to make it a more obvious match. What this is a sign of is that, as was stated numerous times in this thread, you can't take what anyone's lawyers say at face value.

 

[Lord Error]

I was just reading that Ars article and the first thing that jumped at me was that the unique portion of SN does match. Funny that the Ars editor didn't realize that (and neither did all but one person in the comments)

 

[squatingyeti]

Yeah, not like you have blinders on or anything. Hotz wasn't happy just offering an alternative to people, he wanted to be famous. This is what he gets.

For the last time, I don't think Hotz has gone about stuff the right way. He is socially abrasive and has some other issues. However, that doesn't mean I don't support CFW. That doesn't mean what he has done is fundamentally different than when he was explaining exactly how the iPhone was hacked (which was illegal when he did it). Who was jumping all over him for being an ass then?

In fact, ignore Hotz, what about Fail0verflow? Keep ignoring this is NOT about the keys being released as Sony will keep trying to convince people. Fail0verflow is named in the suit as well.

 

[MalboroRed]

As a general rule of thumb, if it's corporation vs. a single person, I'd never support the corporation. If only because the stakes are not fair going in.

You're right, Sony seriously needs to get some pro-bono legal counsel, ask for donations for their "legal fund" and go on a vacation to South America booked "back in November", silly corporations, when will they ever learn?

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

Also amusing is how quiet this thread has now gone. It seems that George's lawyers leapt before they looked on this one. So this would imply that the PS3s match which greatly increases the chance that Geo=BlickManic or whatever it is.

If this is true he's completely stuffed.

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

For the last time, I don't think Hotz has gone about stuff the right way. He is socially abrasive and has some other issues. However, that doesn't mean I don't support CFW. That doesn't mean what he has done is fundamentally different than when he was explaining exactly how the iPhone was hacked (which was illegal when he did it). Who was jumping all over him for being an ass then?

In fact, ignore Hotz, what about Fail0verflow? Keep ignoring this is NOT about the keys being released as Sony will keep trying to convince people. Fail0verflow is named in the suit as well.

B-b-b-b-but you were so keen to support him, now he's been cast loose? So callous!

 

[plagiarize]

Also amusing is how quiet this thread has now gone. It seems that George's lawyers leapt before they looked on this one. So this would imply that the PS3s match which greatly increases the chance that Geo=BlickManic or whatever it is.

If this is true he's completely stuffed.

jurisdictionally yes.

but here's the thing, why do sony want to contest this in CA? couldn't Sony go after George in his home state (that's an honest question... i don't know that they can)?

if they could go after him at home, and they're trying to make him come to CA, then they're doing that to try and make the case as expensive as possible for George.

again, i don't know that they could go after him in his home state... but all this reeks of SLAPP to me. they don't want people modding their equipment, and so they want anyone who tries to know that Sony is prepared to drag them through the courts at great personal expense.

 

[squatingyeti]

You're right, Sony seriously needs to get some pro-bono legal counsel, ask for donations for their "legal fund" and go on a vacation to South America booked "back in November", silly corporations, when will they ever learn?

You asked about this, got the answer, pointed out that this was addressed in the filing, and then ignored it all to fill in your own bullshit. He was, at first, receiving pro bono work. He did pitch in some of his own money and did ask for donations to help. None of that is wrong. Then, you insinuate he used his "legal fund" to go on a vacation. Amazing.

B-b-b-b-but you were so keen to support him, now he's been cast loose? So callous!

No, I support CFW and that has been said time and time again. I will point out the ridiculous bullshit that gets spewed at Hotz. I will point out what they are stating and their defenses because the case has implications for what I support. I do not have to support his personal behavior and abrasiveness, but people just can't seem to grasp that. I said to ignore Hotz because people are using him to pretend the only reason Sony is suing is because the keys got out. That argument goes to shit when fail0verflow is included.

 

[poppabk]

Also amusing is how quiet this thread has now gone. It seems that George's lawyers leapt before they looked on this one. So this would imply that the PS3s match which greatly increases the chance that Geo=BlickManic or whatever it is.

If this is true he's completely stuffed.

Even if they can show that he created a PSN account and on the balance of evidence show that he knew that SCEA existed and were based in California, Sony still need to demonstrate minimum contact with California. They would probably need at least one instance where Geohot directly dealt with someone from California.

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

jurisdictionally yes.

but here's the thing, why do sony want to contest this in CA? couldn't Sony go after George in his home state (that's an honest question... i don't know that they can)?

if they could go after him at home, and they're trying to make him come to CA, then they're doing that to try and make the case as expensive as possible for George.

again, i don't know that they could go after him in his home state... but all this reeks of SLAPP to me. they don't want people modding their equipment, and so they want anyone who tries to know that Sony is prepared to drag them through the courts at great personal expense.

No here's the thing. He's lied about it to get out of it ("this PSN account isn't mine"), which just exacerbates this huge negative opinion of him and the case and make his entire defence all the more difficult.

As he's the only one who has been collared on this so far it creates a lack of trust with the defenders (Geohot and Failoverflow included). Again if FailOverflow were sure they'd done nothing wrong and could prove it what do they have to hide?

 

[Zoe]

Are you sure that making the document in a non-OCRable format is tampering with evidence? (serious question). If so, then I assume the judge will deal with it appropriately. But if not, then it strikes me as much the same as GeoHot removing the PCBs - becase again, I'm pretty much drawing a blank on legitimate reasons that he could've had for removing the HDD controller PCBs. So I'm viewing the actions of both in much the same way - a douchey move (that, personally, makes the case seem more comedic).

No, it is not tampering with evidence. And it's not on the same level as removing the HDD controllers because their documents are still legible, just not searchable.

OCR is not an exact science and even with perfect scanning of the documents, it's likely the OCR will still result in errors.

Because of the lightening of the file and the normal black text of the Bates stamps, I was unable to run optical character recognition software (OCR) on the file or any other file from SCEA that was produced in this form.

It's a shame this document was filed under seal, but from their description it does sound like part of it is black while other parts of text are grey. This is actually quite common with document scanning because it will calibrate to the darkest text.

 

[squatingyeti]

jurisdictionally yes.

but here's the thing, why do sony want to contest this in CA? couldn't Sony go after George in his home state (that's an honest question... i don't know that they can)?

if they could go after him at home, and they're trying to make him come to CA, then they're doing that to try and make the case as expensive as possible for George.

again, i don't know that they could go after him in his home state... but all this reeks of SLAPP to me. they don't want people modding their equipment, and so they want anyone who tries to know that Sony is prepared to drag them through the courts at great personal expense.

I'll have to check, but did the give over the PSN log showing that an account actually WAS created using that serial? Sony knew all the serial numbers Hotz possessed before trying to make this claim to the court. They have also shown they will state things they cannot actually back up with real evidence hoping it doesn't get pointed out.

For instance, they originally said they could tie Geo1Hotz to Hotz based on information and that was not correct. They also said they have purchase information from the blickmaniac account (you know, information that could definitively attach Hotz to the account) however, they did NOT file that evidence or provide it to the defense with their other "proof" blickmaniac was him. They merely said it.

 

[statham]

You're right, Sony seriously needs to get some pro-bono legal counsel, ask for donations for their "legal fund" and go on a vacation to South America booked "back in November", silly corporations, when will they ever learn?

18 year old kid vs sony, kinda not fare when one has billions at stash the other might have a burger king job. probably still living at home and goes on vacation with his family vs a huge team of lawyers from sony attacking him. whould I ask for donations, yes

 

[mclem]

Don't they also need to show that it was *them* who was impacted by this? There's still the document which suggests that the full rights to the PS3 hardware and firmware belong to SCEI, not SCEA.

(Which, in turn, has interesting repercussions on the OtherOS class action suit, albeit in a negative direction)

 

[Zoe]

jurisdictionally yes.

but here's the thing, why do sony want to contest this in CA? couldn't Sony go after George in his home state (that's an honest question... i don't know that they can)?

They could go after him in New Jersey, but they would likely need a different law firm that can practice in that state. It doesn't look like their current one has a branch there.

 

[squatingyeti]

As he's the only one who has been collared on this so far it creates a lack of trust with the defenders (Geohot and Failoverflow included). Again if FailOverflow were sure they'd done nothing wrong and could prove it what do they have to hide?

You think the court system is all about if you've done something right or wrong? Sony doesn't have to win in court before you submit to an agreement because you have been financially destroyed by them. In fact, several entities know that they don't need the best case to win, they just need to make it financially unreasonable for the other side to fight. You also need to read what I posted above too. Just because Sony said that Serial made an account, does not mean they actually proved it or provided any legal evidence. Sony has, a couple of times now, claimed something without providing any evidence to support.

Also, fail0verflow isn't necessarily hiding. Sony originally tried to claim bushing must live in California, so that gives California jurisdiction over the whole case. Can anyone see the problem with that argument? A John Doe is said to live in California, but there is NO evidence to support that and no one really knows WHO the John Doe is, but because Sony says, without evidence, he lives there, California should have jurisdiction. Read both sides, these are the types of legal claims Sony has been making for jurisdiction.

 

[squatingyeti]

Don't they also need to show that it was *them* who was impacted by this? There's still the document which suggests that the full rights to the PS3 hardware and firmware belong to SCEI, not SCEA.

(Which, in turn, has interesting repercussions on the OtherOS class action suit, albeit in a negative direction)

Hey hey, someone that is getting this is about jurisdiction. If you read the end of the second link, which is the actual filing PDF, you can see some arguments against jurisdiction even if SCEA could prove he had an account or other things.

SCEI would have to sue in Delaware (which they'd have even more straws to grasp at on jurisdiction) and is perfectly capable of bringing the suit. There is a reason SCEA was chosen to file the suit.

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

Hey hey, someone that is getting this is about jurisdiction. If you read the end of the second link, which is the actual filing PDF, you can see some arguments against jurisdiction even if SCEA could prove he had an account or other things.

SCEI would have to sue in Delaware and is perfectly capable of bringing the suit. There is a reason SCEA was chosen to file the suit.

So just to confirm, this thread is now entirely over whether the jurisdictional nature of this case is correct?

Not my bag of beans really. I'm no armchair lawyer so for that reason, I'm out.

 

[PSGames]

What is stopping geohot from claiming someone else created that account on his PS3?

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

What is stopping geohot from claiming someone else created that account on his PS3?

Honour, Decency and the American Way!

 

[poppabk]

Don't they also need to show that it was *them* who was impacted by this? There's still the document which suggests that the full rights to the PS3 hardware and firmware belong to SCEI, not SCEA.

(Which, in turn, has interesting repercussions on the OtherOS class action suit, albeit in a negative direction)

I somehow don't think that will matter as SCEA is a wholly owned subsidiary of SCEI.

 

[PSGames]

Honour, Decency and the American Way!

lol But seriously his mom, dad, brother, sister, friend, cousin, anyone could have created an account on his PS3.

 

[graywolf323]

18 year old kid vs sony, kinda not fare when one has billions at stash the other might have a burger king job. probably still living at home and goes on vacation with his family vs a huge team of lawyers from sony attacking him. whould I ask for donations, yes

he's 21 not 18 and if he had gone on vacation with his family I don't think he would have talked about paying for it back in November, most 21 year-olds don't have to pay for their vacation if it's with family

 

[squatingyeti]

I somehow don't think that will matter as SCEA is a wholly owned subsidiary of SCEI.

I think it does matter because SCEI would be the one impacted and they DO have a presence in the US (Delaware). Furthermore, I'll have to check, but I don't think the way they have their agreements makes SCEA capable of this.

 

[Lonewolf_92]

Are we to assume that a company and/or the lawyers working for said, that can't even get a standardized part number correct from one filing to the next, correctly IDed an account using a lengthy alphanumeric? Beggars belief. Add to the fact that they claim it contains purchase information but haven't presented it and something starts to smell.

 

[squatingyeti]

So just to confirm, this thread is now entirely over whether the jurisdictional nature of this case is correct?

Not my bag of beans really. I'm no armchair lawyer so for that reason, I'm out.

Everything has been about jurisdiction. There is NO case yet. The only thing the court is SUPPOSED to be hearing about is jurisdiction. Hotz's lawyers have pointed out that Sony has used jurisdictional discovery in an attempt to do more. Even introducing evidence that has nothing to do with jurisdiction.

Are we to assume that a company and/or the lawyers working for said, that can't even get a standardized part number correct from one filing to the next, correctly IDed an account using a lengthy alphanumeric? Beggars belief. Add to the fact that they claim it contains purchase information but haven't presented it and something starts to smell.

Everyone was quick to make some magic connection that since Hotz went on vacation and asked for donations, he stole people's money and fled the country. However, twice (originally with the Geo1Hotz account) SCEA has stated they have information which proves it is Hotz. They did not turn over the Geo1Hotz "proof" at first and it ended up being an IP that was not Hotz. Then, they claim blickmaniac is him and they have purchase information (information that would definitively tie it to Hotz) and have not provided said information to the court OR the defense.

 

[poppabk]

lol But seriously his mom, dad, brother, sister, friend, cousin, anyone could have created an account on his PS3.

The preponderance of evidence would suggest that if the account was made on his PS3 then he made it.

 

[squatingyeti]

The sole way SCEA attempts to demonstrate that “blickmaniac” is Mr. Hotz is an unauthenticated and hearsay blog posting where an individual attempts to sell an unlocked cell phone

Curiously, the exhibit proffered by SCEA regarding the purported “blickmanic” account indicates that there was some form of purchase or transaction relating to this account. Law Dec. Ex. A. Consistent with SCEA's general refusal to provide Mr. Hotz with its requested discovery responses, SCEA has not provided any information pertaining to this transaction to Mr. Hotz's counse

You'd think SCEA would want to, without a doubt, show that this account is his since they have purchase information. However, we must remember they also had "IP information" for Geo1Hotz.

 

[squatingyeti]

I somehow don't think that will matter as SCEA is a wholly owned subsidiary of SCEI.

Well, that may not be so...

On the other hand, SCEA, which is not even a subsidiary of Sony Japan

SCEA has enacted in this lawsuit is its masquerade as Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. (“Sony Japan”), a Japanese corporation headquartered in Japan and duly incorporated in the state of Delaware. To be clear, Sony Japan-- not SCEA-- is responsible for manufacturing, distributing, and marketing the Playstation Computer. Sony Japan is the owner of all rights, title, and interest in, to and under the copyrights in the PS3 Programmer Tools...

They have the agreements between SCEA and SCEI (they notable pointed out that Sony did not provide those agreements until the evening Hotz's response was due).

 

[staticneuron]

Hey hey, someone that is getting this is about jurisdiction. If you read the end of the second link, which is the actual filing PDF, you can see some arguments against jurisdiction even if SCEA could prove he had an account or other things.

SCEI would have to sue in Delaware (which they'd have even more straws to grasp at on jurisdiction) and is perfectly capable of bringing the suit. There is a reason SCEA was chosen to file the suit.

SCEA is responsible for the Playstation operations in this market. The business is still affected in this jurisdiction because SCEA is the legal representation for SCEI in this country regarding the playstation. Eula, warranties and all other agreements or issues, you take to SCEA not SCEI.

Sony Japan-- not SCEA-- is responsible for manufacturing, distributing, and marketing the Playstation Computer.

Which isn't entirely true. If I am not mistaken even though SCEI (a subsidiary of Sony Japan) manufactures the PS3's, SCEA are the ones responsible for marketing and distribution of the PS3 in the United States, Canada and Latin America.

 

[poppabk]

Well, that may not be so...

On the other hand, SCEA, which is not even a subsidiary of Sony Japan

I was just going by what it says on the SCEA website.

 

[MalboroRed]

Everything has been about jurisdiction. There is NO case yet. The only thing the court is SUPPOSED to be hearing about is jurisdiction. Hotz's lawyers have pointed out that Sony has used jurisdictional discovery in an attempt to do more. Even introducing evidence that has nothing to do with jurisdiction.



Everyone was quick to make some magic connection that since Hotz went on vacation and asked for donations, he stole people's money and fled the country. However, twice (originally with the Geo1Hotz account) SCEA has stated they have information which proves it is Hotz. They did not turn over the Geo1Hotz "proof" at first and it ended up being an IP that was not Hotz. Then, they claim blickmaniac is him and they have purchase information (information that would definitively tie it to Hotz) and have not provided said information to the court OR the defense.

Fact #1: George Hotz went on vacation in South America in the middle of being sued by a multi-billion dollar corporation.
Fact #2: George Hotz solicited donations for his "legal defense fund".

What is not clear and cannot be proven at this point is whether he spent money from the "defense fund" on his vacation, one can speculate that he did, the same way that one can speculate that he did not, but if you believe that he did not and somehow magically came up with his own money to spend on the trip, then you are basically taking George Hotz's word at face value, not everybody would do that given George Hotz has not behaved like an honest, responsible person.

 

[squatingyeti]

I was just going by what it says on the SCEA website.

I believe they reorganized after this case, or are in the process of such. Their agreements at the time of the filing and before, as apparently shown in the evidence, says they are/where not.

SCEA is responsible for the Playstation operations in this market. The business is still affected in this jurisdiction because SCEA is the legal representation for SCEI in this country regarding the playstation. Eula, warranties and all other agreements or issues, you take to SCEA not SCEI.

Which has nothing to do with why SCEA is filing this case. They are merely a marketing and distribution channel for the PS3.

Which isn't entirely true. If I am not mistaken even though SCEI (a subsidiary of Sony Japan) manufactures the PS3's, SCEA are the ones responsible for marketing and distribution of the PS3 in the United States, Canada and Latin America.

Correct, marketing and distribution. I'll need to go back and address your post when I have more time, but if you look over the full PDF, you'll see the legal arguments brought by Kellar for why SCEA has no business bringing this case.

 

[squatingyeti]

Fact #1: George Hotz went on vacation in South America in the middle of being sued by a multi-billion dollar corporation.
Fact #2: George Hotz solicited donations for his "legal defense fund".

What is not clear and cannot be proven at this point is whether he spent money from the "defense fund" on his vacation, one can speculate that he did, the same way that one can speculate that he did not, but if you believe that he did not and somehow magically came up with his own money to spend on the trip, then you are basically taking George Hotz's word at face value, not everybody would do that given George Hotz has not behaved like an honest, responsible person.

It is illegal to misappropriate donations. His lawyer would certainly be upset about not getting paid the money he should be getting. His lawyer agrees the trip was planned and paid for before this case was brought. His lawyer, in his filing, also stated no funds were misappropriated. Guilty until proven innocent, exactly how Sony has been fighting this whole case and some people going right along with it.

 

[obonicus]

if they could go after him at home, and they're trying to make him come to CA, then they're doing that to try and make the case as expensive as possible for George.

Maybe that's part of the motivation, but I think that it's because CA is friendlier to IP lawsuits. Hotz will probably lose if it goes to CA. But this probably will be settled out of court in any case, so I think it's moot.

 

[squatingyeti]

Maybe that's part of the motivation, but I think that it's because CA is friendlier to IP lawsuits. Hotz will probably lose if it goes to CA. But this probably will be settled out of court in any case, so I think it's moot.

It's both IMHO. CA is much friendlier to a lawsuit of this type and it puts extra burden on Hotz to defend himself across the country.

 

[MalboroRed]

It is illegal to misappropriate donations. His lawyer would certainly be upset about not getting paid the money he should be getting. His lawyer agrees the trip was planned and paid for before this case was brought. His lawyer, in his filing, also stated no funds were misappropriated. Guilty until proven innocent, exactly how Sony has been fighting this whole case and some people going right along with it.

Nobody is saying he's "guilty" of misappropriating donations and should go to jail or get sentenced to the iron maiden, it's not like we're talking about an official charitable organization here with tax receipts and everything, it's just a bunch of guys sending money to George Hotz for a supposed "legal fund", even IF he used some of it to pay for his South American trip or used the money to buy gum drops, we'll never know and won't be able to prove either way, the point is we don't know how he's using the money and whether the money actually goes towards his legal defense, we DO know that George Hotz went on vacation in the middle of the current law suit and removed parts of the hard drive he was supposed to turn over, it's not about being "guilty", people can have a negative opinion of him, we're not sentencing him here, merely speculating.

 

[squatingyeti]

SCEA is responsible for the Playstation operations in this market. The business is still affected in this jurisdiction because SCEA is the legal representation for SCEI in this country regarding the playstation. Eula, warranties and all other agreements or issues, you take to SCEA not SCEI.

Which isn't entirely true. If I am not mistaken even though SCEI (a subsidiary of Sony Japan) manufactures the PS3's, SCEA are the ones responsible for marketing and distribution of the PS3 in the United States, Canada and Latin America.

Ok, getting back to this, here are the responses to SCEA taking the action when SCEI is located in Delaware and could take the action in the US.

SCEA develops, markets and distributes video games, and speaks extensively about video games in its pleadings. However, Mr. Hotz' actions have nothing to do with video games and the Code does not provide users the ability to run pirated video games or any other pirated software, as SCEA claims.

Presumably, had one of Sony Japan's hundreds of affiliates initiated a lawsuit in a different forum, such affiliate would modify the discourse to argue that Hotz focused on music (e.g., Sony Music Entertainment, Inc.), movies (e.g., Sony Pictures Classics, Inc.), electric components (e.g., Sony Corporation, Inc.), or some other aspect tangentially related to the Playstation Computer in an attempt to confer jurisdiction in such forum. The Playstation Computer provides for many functions-- in fact, it's slogan is that “It Only Does Everything”. The fact that Mr. Hotz purportedly impacted the Playstation Computer does not mean that all of these affiliates, including component manufacturers in China, can suddenly claim that Mr. Hotz directed his activities toward them.

This is despite the fact that the Playstation Computer packaging, the Playstation Computer itself, and the click through agreements one has to accept when upgrading the Playstation Computer all indicates they are the products and property of Sony Japan, which is incorporated in Delaware. This is also despite the fact that all of the agreements put forth by SCEA indicate that Sony Japan is the owner and manufacturer of the Playstation Computer

Remember, SCEA is asserting that Hotz targeted this action at them. In fact, they use the fact that he said "any of you 3", when saying any of the manufacturers could secure their next system by giving him a job, as targeting SCEA. Even knowing of SCEA's existence, that would still not be targeted at them as they do not make the firmware or the system.

As its last saving grace, SCEA tries to use the Playstation Network ("PSN”) and its Terms of Service (“TOS”) as a method of establishing jurisdiction over Mr. Hotz. Even assuming arguendo that Mr. Hotz acquiesced to the PSN TOS, it alone would be incapable of establishing jurisdiction over Mr. Hotz.

More important, however, the PSN TOS does not apply to any hardware-- namely, the Playstation Computer. To the contrary, the PSN TOS explicitly states it "applies to software, content and access to software, content and services provided through (his emphasis)or in connection with" the Playstation Network and a service known as “Qriocity.”

Whether a forum selection clause applies to tort claims depends on whether resolution of the claims relates to interpretation of the contract.” Manetti-Farrow v. Gucci America, Inc., 858 F.2d 509, 514 (9th Cir. 1988). In the present case, none of the claims SCEA has asserted in any way relate to the PSN-- nor could they be since the alleged torts involve Mr. Hotz's alleged circumvention outside the scope of the PSN.

I'd like to hear other arguments on this as SCEA has not alleged he broke PSN or circumvented PSN. SCEA's only claim to jurisdiction remains PSN and the TOS somehow tying Hotz to California. Hotz's actions were circumventing the security of the PS3 and that is the suit that Sony is trying to bring.

It defies reason that Mr. Hotz "directed" his comment at a company that does not create the hardware or the firmware that he is alleged to have hacked

The question is, does anyone think he did actually direct that comment at SCEA and not Sony itself?

Regarding SCEA intentionally sabotaging the documents they provided to Hotz

compare Bricker Dec. filed with Court with Bricker Dec. produced to Mr. Hotz

If it was because of copying, as suggested previously in this thread, both copies would look similar due to adjusting to the black level on both. However, there is apparently a greying attempt on the documents provided to Hotz.

 

[squatingyeti]

Nobody is saying he's "guilty" of misappropriating donations and should go to jail or get sentenced to the iron maiden, it's not like we're talking about an official charitable organization here with tax receipts and everything, it's just a bunch of guys sending money to George Hotz for a supposed "legal fund", even IF he used some of it to pay for his South American trip or used the money to buy gum drops, we'll never know and won't be able to prove either way, the point is we don't know how he's using the money and whether the money actually goes towards his legal defense, we DO know that George Hotz went on vacation in the middle of the current law suit and removed parts of the hard drive he was supposed to turn over, it's not about being "guilty", people can have a negative opinion of him, we're not sentencing him here, merely speculating.

I think you need to read over that thread again. Those against Sony on this matter said we do not know what has happened and jumping to conclusions would be premature. Now, go read what the others said and check the mod support in doing so. Notice the huge difference? One side going apeshit while the other saying that is unfair.

Now, this is about jurisdiction over Hotz. If you would like to address anything posted and have a discussion about said jurisdiction, please see above.

 

[Massa]

I'll have to check, but did the give over the PSN log showing that an account actually WAS created using that serial? Sony knew all the serial numbers Hotz possessed before trying to make this claim to the court. They have also shown they will state things they cannot actually back up with real evidence hoping it doesn't get pointed out.

In this case you're basically accusing Sony of fabricating evidence.

 

[squatingyeti]

In this case you're basically accusing Sony of fabricating evidence.

No, I'm not saying the fabricated evidence and I don't think that's what they have done. I AM saying SCEA has stated they have something proving their side and either not provided it (the blickmaniac purchase that could show who it is) or when they did provide it, the evidence did not support their claim.

Now, SCEA has stated a particular PS3 with a particular serial# created a PSN account. However, they did not provide the evidence that proved such. Just stated, they could show. They also stated they could show an IP attached Geo1Hotz to George Hotz and the evidence did not actually support that. Do you see the difference?

 

[Zoe]

No, I'm not saying the fabricated evidence and I don't think that's what they have done. I AM saying SCEA has stated they have something proving their side and either not provided it (the blickmaniac purchase that could show who it is) or when they did provide it, the evidence did not support their claim.

Now, SCEA has stated a particular PS3 with a particular serial# created a PSN account. However, they did not provide the evidence that proved such. Just stated, they could show. They also stated they could show an IP attached Geo1Hotz to George Hotz and the evidence did not actually support that. Do you see the difference?

The documents with that evidence exist but are filed under seal.

Edit: They must be internal support documents of some kind because the declaration originally filed does mention the CG221368477-CECH-2001A serial number instead of the other one with the parts number appended.

 

[squatingyeti]

The documents with that evidence exist but are filed under seal.

The IP address associated with the PSN Geo1Hotz never matched up and that's why they moved on to now say he is blickmaniac. Apparently, the evidence that a PS3 with a particular serial# created a PSN account is made, but that is not filed under seal (from what I can tell) as Kellar identifies each piece of evidence he references that is under seal in his filing and that was not one of them. Furthermore, in that evidence, they make the claim of a purchase or transaction tied to the blickmaniac account, but do not provide the details which could definitively prove or refute that it is indeed Hotz. A curious move wouldn't you say?

Also, did you see above where the copy of documents Hotz was given are different than what the court received (shaded grey) in what they argue is an attempt to stop OCR. SCEA also avoided providing the documents in TIFF.

 

[squatingyeti]

Kellar even brings arguments that if Hotz had accessed PSN, it still wouldn't bring jurisdiction to California. I think, as part of any good legal team, they both do their best to make the other side prove something was done. Hotz very well could be dancing that dance, but in the end, should it really matter over jurisdiction?

Accessing PSN still would not bring his actions to be directed at SCEA. People keep wanting to talk about the overall case, but there is no case yet. This is all about jurisdiction and I'm wondering how people are seeing California have jurisdiction. I've yet to hear good discussion on this.

 

[Zoe]

The IP address associated with the PSN Geo1Hotz never matched up and that's why they moved on to now say he is blickmaniac. Apparently, the evidence that a PS3 with a particular serial# created a PSN account is made, but that is not filed under seal (from what I can tell) as Kellar identifies each piece of evidence he references that is under seal in his filing and that was not one of them.

The evidence is in Law Decl A.

The serial number utilized by SCEA, however, is different from the serial number proffered by Mr. Hotz's attorney. Compare Law Dec., Ex. A, with Kellar Dec., Ex. L.

DOCUMENT E-FILED UNDER SEAL re [109] Order on Administrative Motion to File Under Seal -- Exhibits H, L, M, N, P and T to [104] Declaration of Ryan Bricker by Sony Computer Entertainment America LLC. (Attachments: # (1) Exhibit Bricker Exs. H, L, M, N, P and T_Part 2, # (2) Exhibit Bricker Exs. H, L, M, N, P and T_Part 3, # (3) Exhibit Bricker Exs. H, L, M, N, P and T_Part 4, # (4) Exhibit Bricker Exs. H, L, M, N, P and T_Part 5, # (5) Exhibit Bricker Exs. H, L, M, N, P and T_Part 6, # (6) Exhibit Bricker Exs. H, L, M, N, P and T_Part 7, # (7) Exhibit Bricker Exs. H, L, M, N, P and T_Part 8, # (8) Exhibit Law Exs. A and B, # (9) Exhibit Pierce Ex. A)(Smith, Mehrnaz) (Filed on 23-Mar-2011) Modified on 24-Mar-2011 (ysS, COURT STAFF).

Furthermore, in that evidence, they make the claim of a purchase or transaction tied to the blickmaniac account, but do not provide the details which could definitively prove or refute that it is indeed Hotz. A curious move wouldn't you say?

Curiously, the exhibit proffered by SCEA regarding the purported “blickmanic” account indicates that there was some form of purchase or transaction relating to this account. Law Dec. Ex. A. Consistent with SCEA's general refusal to provide Mr. Hotz with its requested discovery responses, SCEA has not provided any information pertaining to this transaction to Mr. Hotz's counsel.

Why didn't they file proof of them asking for additional information?

Also, did you see above where the copy of documents Hotz was given are different than what the court received (shaded grey) in what they argue is an attempt to stop OCR. SCEA also avoided providing the documents in TIFF.

It looks like they converted that document to grayscale when printing it to PDF--that could easily be a mistake just as easily as it could be a stalling tactic. That said, shading such as that shouldn't have prevented any decent OCR client from parsing it. Additionally, the document is still completely legible.

Regarding TIFF vs PDF, because TIFF is a highly manipulative format, I can understand a preference for handing over documents (particularly sealed documents) as PDF. Unless they've been legally instructed to do so (and the lawyers don't cite anything on that), then providing documents in that format would just be a courtesy.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

It really only makes logical sense that SCEI would sue him and not SCEA since SCEA is only the games division and they do have a good point that SCEI has a presence in the US. SCEA has nothing do with with the system nor the firmware and are just a marketing arm of one division of Sony where as the hack affected all aspects of the system and not just those related to games in the US. But should each division of Sony sue him individually?