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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #2) - One Thumb Up

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JetBlackPanda

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It's really stupid when you think about it: if R2 turned on before they left for Starkiller, they would have had the complete map and could have possibly gotten Luke. Not sure it would have changed much, but maybe Han could have waited for Luke before deciding on going on Starkiller.

Star killer base still needed to be destroyed though
 

Cross-Section

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It's really stupid when you think about it: if R2 turned on before they left for Starkiller, they would have had the complete map and could have possibly gotten Luke. Not sure it would have changed much, but maybe Han could have waited for Luke before deciding on going on Starkiller.

Regardless, I'd imagine the giant death planet charging to destroy your base leaves little time for waiting around.
 

Messypandas

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It was a 5/7 movie

 

borghe

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Nice to know I wasn't the only one that didn't like the light side seduction angle.

ironically I liked it. It's the same side of the coin that Anakin faced, just phrased differently. Anakin didn't want t one evil but felt himself pulled there. Kylo DID want to be evil, but his "light" feelings.. compassion, love, attachment, etc were pulling him back.

Don't really see what's so confusing about it. Very few people are truly pure good or evil. We all have our thoughts/moments of weakness.


The whole point of the dark side is to fall to seductions and passions. How the fuck does someone get seduced by the light?

read above. Vader was "Seduced" by the light.. aka his feelings for his son in pain. Seduced may be a silly word to us (how do you "seduce" someone into something good?) but remember... to a Dark side wielder, it is a seduction. The dark side is where they want to be, and it's falling to improper feelings that is pulling them out.
 

Ether_Snake

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Regardless, I'd imagine the giant death planet charging to destroy your base leaves little time for waiting around.

Sure, didn't need Han though, Han goes to talk to Ben, which he could presumably do later anyway.
 

Makoto

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Ask darth Vader.
We had Luke's story over the course of 3 movies to set the emotional foundation and have us understand why the Emperor shooting lightning at Luke would affect Vader so much.

We know almost nothing about Ben and Han Solo's relationship. Nor his relationship with Luke before it went sour. What constitutes Kylo Ren's light side?
 

SmithnCo

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I feel like the whole Starkiller Base was just JJ/Disney playing it safe and having a big finale for the movie. That was the "blah" plotline compared to the good stuff which was Kylo. Hopefully since they've "hooked" people they will ditch reusing ideas and go completely new for the sequel.

Kylo was definitely the highlight for me, there is a lot they can do with that character now.
 
Jul 30, 2008
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ironically I liked it. It's the same side of the coin that Anakin faced, just phrased differently. Anakin didn't want t one evil but felt himself pulled there. Kylo DID want to be evil, but his "light" feelings.. compassion, love, attachment, etc were pulling him back.

Don't really see what's so confusing about it. Very few people are truly pure good or evil. We all have our thoughts/moments of weakness.
I would argue that Kylo is never being "seduced" by the light----he has never completely been seduced by the dark side. Until he kills his father, the last piece of good in his life, his turn to the dark isn't complete.
 

Korey

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I mostly agree, though there are like 5 cons that are pretty much the same one and it seems like you kept rephrasing it just to make the picture larger :p I specially agree with your criticism to Han and Leia's relationship though - their only and last meaningful conversation was an uninspired exposition piece that didn't really say anything anyone who had been watching the movie didn't already know.

Yea, like the original trilogy was Han and Leia getting closer and then ultimately becoming a thing.

So in Episode 7, you start off with them splitting up, being distant, and then reminiscing on memories that were off screen?

What if Han died saving Leia, the ultimate sacrifice, instead of the weird anticlimactic way he died here?

So much missed opportunity, which is a good summary of this entire film.
 

GhaleonEB

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I love the movie dearly, but what 'arc'?

The only character with s discernible arc is Fin.

-Rey goes from Badass Normal to Badass Jedi
-Poe just disappears...because...because...
-Kylo tells us that he is conflicted by the light, but we never actually see jack shit
-Han is too old for this shit, he gets a pass

Why do you call out Finn's arc, but not Rey? Both Finn and Rey go through an arc of overcoming their worst fears, realizing who they are capable of being, and facing those fears for another cause. They were both either abandoned or taken from their family as a child, have nothing to hold onto, and find that in one another, their new friends, and the Resistance.

Finn runs from the New Order, literally, for most of the film. His arc is about finding the courage to be more than just someone who can run away and "disappear". He has no family, nothing to fight for, and just wants to flee. That his final confrontation with Kylo at the end is done when they have both discarded the masks they wore when they first saw one another plays into it nicely: they both no longer have anything to hide and see each other for what they are. Kylo has solidified his turn to the dark. Finn stands and faces his greatest fear. (And gets his ass kicked, but hey.)

Rey goes through a similar arc, but it has a couple layers. Her great fear is that her family will never come back for her, and she's in total denial that they won't through most of the film. Failing to confront that means she doesn't see what she can be - what she is - without them. She maintains that her family is going to come back for her, even after she's left Jakku and found a makeshift family of friends. This comes to a head when Maz tells her to embrace the force, which is so clearly calling out to her. Doing so means facing the reality that her family was not coming back, of leaving her home behind for good, and no longer letting that hold her back. Maz even ties the two together directly, in the same scene.

What does Rey do when she is told this? She literally runs. Just as Finn had been doing from his fears through the entire film.

Had Rey not grabbed the lightsaber at the end, had Luke shown up to bail her out, all that build up would be squashed. She had to pick it up to finish the emotional journey she was on and embrace what she knew she could become.

That arc.
 

Solo

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Exactly. You don't call in JJ if you want a risky movie. He is a very safe pair of hands that will get your film in on time and with little to no bumps.

For sure. And just to make it clear that I dont use "safe" as a derogatory term, I actually cannot think of anyone who would have been a better choice than Abrams for this reboot.
 

Neoweee

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I can't ever tell with these things.

Didn't know 7/10 was a meme, though.

Bestowing a 7 out of 10 is basically a nerd's way of saying "It is not as good as you think it is!", as if they are an arbiter of superior taste and judgment.
 

opoth

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So now that's set in and a lot of us have seen a couple of times do you guys still feel they way you did after first seeing it? Or has the "honeymoon phase" set in?

I've seen it 3 times. It definitely holds up, I preferred the 2nd and 3rd viewings quite a bit.
 

Korey

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Exactly. You don't call in JJ if you want a risky movie. He is a very safe pair of hands that will get your film in on time and with little to no bumps.

Not true.

He did a WAY better job reintroducing Star Trek for a whole new generation.

Loved the new Star Trek, was meh on Force Awakens.
 

borghe

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I would argue that Kylo is never being "seduced" by the light----he has never completely been seduced by the dark side. Until he kills his father, the last piece of good in his life, his turn to the dark isn't complete.

well right.. those were his words, not mine. He felt his turn to the dark side was almost complete and that he was "Being seduced" by the light.. that's his description.
 

Fliesen

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The whole point of the dark side is to fall to seductions and passions. How the fuck does someone get seduced by the light?

It's called a conscience. Regret.
"being drawn to the light" = "i don't think i can do any of this abhorrent shit anymore, i'm disgusted by my own actions"
 

John Harker

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Feb 26, 2005
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I just hope that we find out just how many children Luke was training.

Would be cool if at some point in the movies if he or Rey gather up all the barely trained apprentices.

Do we have any reason to believe yet that the Knights of Ren are not ALL apprentices of Luke?

Like, Snoke got to Ben and Ben pulled 6 other padawans away with him, lured them to this cult of the dark side with promises of more power (even Anakin fell for that one, when he felt the Jedi were intentionally keeping knowledge from him, he turned to the dark for the secrets... They know Luke's connection to Vader, so maybe they all felt he was holding back from them?), so this splinter group followed Ben because of his connection to Vader and his promise of teachings from Snoke?

And they collectively slaughtered Luke's other trainees that wouldn't join them- to snuff out the light in exchange for this knowledge.If Snoke really is not a Sith, then no need to have a rule of 2 anymore... And makes for a much more emotionally conflicted and frightened Luke, who has 7 dark side fanatical trained force users hunting him And his family down throughout the Galaxy, so he goes into hiding to find deeper knowledge from the ancient Jedi to turn them back toward the light ... And so far in this film, we only saw Kylo's hunt. The other Knights are on separate grail quests to kill Luke.
 

sphagnum

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The whole point of the dark side is to fall to seductions and passions. How the fuck does someone get seduced by the light?

The light is nice and comfortable, but if Kylo believes that the Empire was justified and that the New Republic has brought nothing but disorder to the galaxy, then being seduced by the nice and comfortable things in life would be contrary to establishing galactic peace. Driver has been very insistent that Kylo doesn't see himself as "bad". He's just someone willing to do what it takes to achieve order and justice, and since it's a war, that means embracing the darkness to achieve power.
 

diaspora

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It's called a conscience. Regret.
"being drawn to the light" = "i don't think i can do any of this abhorrent shit anymore, i'm disgusted by my own actions"

My issue isn't with fighting to stay with the darkside, just describing it as a seduction as idiotic.

.

The light is nice and comfortable, but if Kylo believes that the Empire was justified and that the New Republic has brought nothing but disorder to the galaxy, then being seduced by the nice and comfortable things in life would be contrary to establishing galactic peace. Driver has been very insistent that Kylo doesn't see himself as "bad". He's just someone willing to do what it takes to achieve order and justice, and since it's a war, that means embracing the darkness to achieve power.

Kinda wish this was in the movie.
 

Makoto

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It's called a conscience. Regret.
"being drawn to the light" = "i don't think i can do any of this abhorrent shit anymore, i'm disgusted by my own actions"
Perhaps my memory is betraying me but did he ever show a sign of regret after cutting down that dude int he village, ordering the villagers slaughtered and then torturing Poe?

Edit: And I don't even mean a blatant sign of regret, just a tinge or a hint of it?
 

DiipuSurotu

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The lightsaber fights were AWESOME, however. Not as slow as in the OT, not as fancy as in the PT, but a nice middle ground. I loved the anger and fury on each slash and clash.

I love how brutal they were. You could feel the pain. When Kylo turned his crossguard so the little saber thing would touch Finn, I was feeling the pain holy shit
 

borghe

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So now that's set in and a lot of us have seen a couple of times do you guys still feel they way you did after first seeing it? Or has the "honeymoon phase" set in?

I've seen it 4 times. It seriously keeps getting better. Mind you I acknowledge many of the faults (story retread, Finn's programming mysteriously going awry, artoo mysteriously turning on, though apparently that was explained in the book, etc) but overall the movie was as good as i was hoping, and honestly better than it needed to be to get the Star Wars train wreck back on track. Loving the whole experience of this. Takes me back to seeing the OT in the theaters when they were released.
 

Fliesen

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Rey goes through a similar arc, but it has a couple layers. Her great fear is that her family will never come back for her, and she's in total denial that they won't through most of the film. Failing to confront that means she doesn't see what she can be - what she is - without them. She maintains that her family is going to come back for her, even after she's left Jakku and found a makeshift family of friends. This comes to a head when Kaz tells her to embrace the force, which is so clearly calling out to her. Doing so means facing the reality that her family was not coming back, of leaving her home behind for good, and no longer letting that hold her back. Kaz even ties the two directly into the same scene.


That arc.


Perhaps my memory is betraying me but did he ever show a sign of regret after cutting down that dude int he village, ordering the villagers slaughtered and then torturing Poe?

Edit: And I don't even mean a blatant sign of regret, just a tinge or a hint of it?

not like we could see any sign of his inner conflict because he's wearing a mask and a cape. I think the whole point of his getup is to hide the fact that he's not as much of a cold hearted badass as he pretends to be.

I've seen it 4 times. It seriously keeps getting better. Mind you I acknowledge many of the faults (story retread, Finn's programming mysteriously going awry, artoo mysteriously turning on, though apparently that was explained in the book, etc) but overall the movie was as good as i was hoping, and honestly better than it needed to be to get the Star Wars train wreck back on track. Loving the whole experience of this. Takes me back to seeing the OT in the theaters when they were released.

5 times here and it doesn't get any better after like ... the 3rd time. After that you're just enjoying the ride.
I'm gonna do this for as long as i don't leave the cinema with a big smile on my face.
 
Jul 30, 2008
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Perhaps my memory is betraying me but did he ever show a sign of regret after cutting down that dude int he village, ordering the villagers slaughtered and then torturing Poe?

Edit: And I don't even mean a blatant sign of regret, just a tinge or a hint of it?
Well no. But they deserved it!
 

Figboy79

Aftershock LA
Just got back from seeing it with my wife, sister, niece and nephew (they're both 15). My niece is more of a Star Trek fan (as in, she likes the Abrams ones; not a knock against her, I really like the Abrams Treks too), and we watched Empire and Jedi last night, but she fell asleep during Empire (sacrilege!!). She did love this one, however.

My nephew and older sister are more into Star Wars, and they also loved it. My sister was the one who got me watching Star Wars back in the early 80's. My wife has also been a huge fan since she was a little girl.

I absolutely loved the movie. I had been spoiled to hell and back, so I was watching it basically just to see how it all played out on screen, and I was not disappointed. I thought the pacing felt just right, and while I do feel like it borrowed it's structure from A New Hope, I think the films are different enough that the parallels didn't bother me. I enjoyed the fan service; Han and Chewie's intro got a nice round of applause (our theater wasn't particularly packed, as it was the first show of the day), as did the intro of other classic characters. The crowd also clapped and cheered when Rey got her big moment during the final battle. Had I not been spoiled, I would have been pleasantly surprised as well. The film wasn't "predictable" because it was aping the format of the OT, it was "predictable" because the show had a lot of foreshadowing and telegraphing of future events. I don't see that as a negative. Besides, I'm 36. Heroes Journey arcs aren't really that surprising or new, whether it be Star Wars, or any other movie. The old crew was great to see, but this movie wasn't about them, it was about the new blood.

And the new blood delivered. The cast is really, really charming, likable, and endearing, just like you hope they'd be. Finn is the standout character, and is most certainly the heart of the film. Rey is a great lead and counterpoint to the often bumbling, in over his head, Finn. Poe isn't in the film enough, but he makes an awesome impact when he is on screen. Very likable, and his chemistry with Finn is a highlight of the movie. Hell, Finn's chemistry with every character he interacts with is fantastic, and more than likely a testament to John Boyega's charisma and charm. He is the glue that ties the characters and movie together. His back and forth with every character he's in a scene with is just fun to watch.

I love that Rey is not Luke 2.0. She is her own character. For all of the structural similarities with A New Hope, Empire, and Jedi, Rey is NOT Luke Skywalker. I had no problems with her being incredibly capable, resourceful, and talented in the Force. Her heroes journey does not have to mirror Luke's 1:1. She is awakening to her potential, which is great. Where that takes her is what's going to make her interesting to follow. She was able to best Kylo Ren because, much like her, his arc is just beginning as well. When we meet Vader in A New Hope, his arc of heroic growth is kind of complete. He isn't at peek power (that'd have been Episode 3 Anakin), but he has been trained in the Force, and is very capable. Kylo Ren is still in training. He's still green, with a lot of raw talent. Sure, he was trained by Luke, and mentored by Snoke, but we don't know for how long.

I think this new trilogy is going to have us seeing both these light side and dark side users coming into their own, which already sets it very much apart from the original trilogy. Kylo is going to want a rematch. Rey is going to be an attempt by Luke to right a horrible failing in his teaching of Kylo, and it's going to be very interesting to see how the two of them come away from another face off. I am not in the camp that thinks that Rey is going to go dark side, but she is going to be tempted, I'm sure. I just feel that having her fall to the dark side as well, diminishes Luke as a character and teacher. Obi-Wan failed Anakin, but did not fail Luke. Luke failed Kylo, I don't think he's going to fail Rey.

I very much like that Kylo is a petulant brat, very much like his grandfather. I think he's going to be a very different, more calculating character in Episode VIII and beyond. I think he could be redeemed. But seeing how the film has set up his arc, I'm not sure that redemption will be his end game. It very much seems that Kylo is a newb Dark Side user, and will grow into a great Dark Side user by the end (probably betraying Snoke and becoming THE major Dark Side practioner in the remaining movies), and Rey is starting off a new Light Side user (yes, she awakened to her potential, but it's silly to think that she's reached it).

The pace is brisk and moves along nicely. There's a lull during the Maz' cantina portion, but it's very short, and once they leave there, the movie is on it's final trajectory to the end.

I'm not sure if Rey is a Skywalker, but I do think she was trained at the Jedi temple, her mind/memories Force blocked, and left on Jakku by Luke until perhaps the time was right for her to re-emerge. She seems to know that there is more to her than she knows, but is still blinded to the specifics. I do wonder if Daisy Ridley's comments prior to the film's release that Rey's parentage would be answered by the end of the film was altered and left on the cutting room floor. I think her vision of being left on Jakku was a lot more revelatory, but for whatever reason, they decided against giving us a definitive answer.

The theater was dead quiet when Kylo killed Han Solo, although I think his death was inevitable the moment Harrison Ford signed on to reprise the role. Besides, the staging of that scene was only going to really have that one outcome. There was no way he was going to turn Kylo from the Dark Side (and the trailer already showed us that we had a lightsaber duel coming up), so the other alternative was Kylo killing Han. There was also a lot of foreshadowing that Han wasn't long for the world. All that talk about him being able to talk his way out of trouble was pretty blatant.

I didn't particularly have a problem with the Star Killer side plot. In my mind, it existed purely to establish the scale of the conflict between the First Order and the Resistance. The New Republic wasn't ever going to be a thing, and when Star Killer destroyed their capital, it cemented in my mind that this new trilogy is going to revolve around the two splinter groups of their respective camps. The First Order is small, yet growing stronger. The Resistance was a small part of the Republic that wanted to take the fight to the First Order. With the Republic wiped out, we only have the Resistance and whatever resources they have (which didn't seem like much), to combat the First Order, which seems pretty sizable.

I think the scale of the galactic conflict in this new trilogy isn't going to be as large as in the prequels or the OT. That could be interesting to see. Two smaller forces vying for control of the system they inhabit. Perhaps Snoke's goal isn't to bring back the Empire, or even wipe out the Republic/Resistance. I wouldn't be surprised if all he cares about is destroying the light side of the Force, not galactic conquest.

I also wanted to mention that the sound design in this movie was excellent, and the soundtrack was very, very good. I didn't think it was as bombastic as the OT or PT, but I think it felt like a reflection of the movie itself. Yes, the callbacks to the classic Star Wars themes were going to tug at you the most, but I think a lot of the original music was very inspired and reflective of the characters and moments they were supplementing. Rey's theme is beautiful, and it intertwines with the OT themes very organically and naturally. I don't think John William's best is behind him, I just think he's like any creative individual, and was experimenting with different sounds and approaches to the familiar. It would have been incredibly easy for him to phone it in and just recycle themes and melodies from the PT and OT, but he didn't. The score shows an incredible amount of restraint, actually.

Overall, it was a fantastic movie, and a return to form of the Star Wars franchise. I had almost forgotten what a good Star Wars movie was like. It is not a flawless movie. It is not the best thing ever, but I think it stands tall with the OT, and is leagues above the PT. I went into the movie with pretty measured expectations, and it exceeded them.
 

Solo

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My favorite scene in the movie was Rey force pulling and lighting up Luke's lightsaber. It's amazing the power that music has, as that is my favorite mostly because of the music.
 

140.85

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Jun 6, 2006
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What is up with everyone wanting so many explanations. Some of you sound like people that whine about the Souls games not holding your hands.

They told us enough to make a solid enjoyable film. It's good that they didn't hit you over the head with why every little plot point was happening. That would have been super lame. R2 waking up felt right to me and it engaged my imagination. And it was absolutely not just some random convenient shit - there were subtle hints dropped in the film regarding this.
 
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