Explosive Zombie
Banned
I understand that it was Rian Johnson's intent to make the movie all about learning from past failures, but I also believe he himself failed spectacularly at doing so in a convincing or believable way. I call it cynical and nihilistic because I believe that characterizes the approach that Johnson took. To me it was like he had an idea for an original movie that explored the themes you mentioned and decided to simply apply it all to the 8th Star Wars movie without a care in the world (or perhaps an active disdain) for the characters, lore, and internal logic that had been established up to that point.
Honestly, The Last Jedi may have worked as the introductory film to this new trilogy (with some changes, of course), but it made little sense as the sequel to TFA and what we knew about our characters by the end of that film. In the end, TLJ came across as a kind of vanity project for Johnson to explore some themes he had banging around in his mind with little care for where the story was going before he came on board or where it might go after his film ended. With how ROS turned out, I suspect even more that this is the truth of things.
Sorry, I didn't mean to insult you personally. I just thought what you were saying was ridiculous: namely that people generally don't understand storytelling or themes, don't want to accept Star Wars progressing beyond the OT, or that the deconstruction of Star Wars in TLJ was necessary for the franchise to be meaningful beyond the OT.
I know what the film's intended themes were. What I'm saying is that the director's approach and what actually transpired on screen in service of his attempt to convey those themes ultimately came across as cynical and nihilistic.
What was unconvincing or unbelievable about it? He made a movie about broadening the universe Star Wars explores to be about more than just one family lineage. The message of the movie is anyone can be special and it was meant to be a launching pad for Disney to continue making movies in this universe without feeling bound by the Skywalker dynasty. I wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that he didn't care about the characters, lore or internal logic. People like to say because Luke threw down his saber in RotJ he had completed his arc but to set these films 30 years later, to have there even be a First Order and for Luke to be in hiding (all set up by TFA) means he failed somewhere. Johnson is exploring what happens with the traditional hero's journey if he's completed it and life goes on, does completing an arc mean he never has to wrestle with the dark side of himself ever again? Even momentarily and in reaction to seeing a future where everything he loved is destroyed? And if we're so concerned about characters having fulfilled arcs then why were so many perfectly okay with Han Solo being right back to the sort of person he was at the start of A New Hope, estranged from his wife, getting into hijinks, owing people money and now a deadbeat dad on top of all of it. If Luke briefly igniting a light saber and considering killing his nephew is betraying his arc then the sort of betrayal Solo represents should be something people scream over but they don't. Because it's not about logical progression from the story we say for most people, it's about seeing things like the things they loved and they liked Solo being this way, they just don't like Luke being a sad old hermit. Not liking Luke that way is 100% okay, just don't rationalize it to me as the film not getting the characters, Luke constantly wanted to give up in the OT and his temptation to the dark side was much bigger in the OT as well. What happens when you become an old man and everything you fought to stop happens all over again? Luke's character is a direct result of the Force Awakens existing at all. I also heavily disagree on lore and internal logic and have never seen a convincing argument for the idea that Johnson doesn't get those things.
Interesting you say that since the plot for TLJ was the plot of the first of the scripts Lucas sent Disney for his own idea for a trilogy, it would begin with Luke secluded on an island due to battling the dark side within himself, finding redemption by training a young girl to be a Jedi named Kira I believe. It even included his own art work of what the island should appear like which was actually used in large part. I'm not sure what you mean about what we know about the characters in TFA at the end of it, or why this film doesn't follow. What explanation was Johnson meant to come up with for why Luke is in hiding while planets are destroyed and Han is killed? Why was it so wrong of him to use the one Lucas himself provided? The idea that Johnson got to do what he wanted is baloney, btw, everything in these new films had to be approved by a committee to become canon meaning everything Johnson decided is now canon, he gave the film thematic depth but the level of control he allegedly had over the plot I think is wildly overstated. How RoS turned out has more to do with the exaggerated fan backlash to TLJ than the idea that Johnson hadn't set them up for a third film, but that's an unwinnable argument to an extent, I'd just easily say there's as much there that builds off TLJ (the connection between Rey and Kylo, force ghosts manipulating real world objects) as there is that feels like a repudiation (Rose Tico's role, Rey's lineage).
I mean I don't think what he said was ridiculous, every argument I get into about these films seems to fall into those categories. Did TFA and RoS really add stuff to make them more meaningful than the OT or were they largely just repeating the beats of the OT? We come together, good and bad, to defeat the Emperor but not by striking him down in anger AGAIN? I love Rise of Skywalker, but not because it's some brand new vision for the franchise. Because I also like seeing the same stories retold over and over, my defense of TLJ isn't predicated on it being the only way to do things, even if I think it's a better way. Heck, I might like Rise of Skywalker better even if I have more respect for TLJ.
You have yet to explain why they come across cynical and nihilistic, though. You seem to be claiming he's cynical about the Star Wars franchise is I guess the idea? But that also describes most fans these days, whether they were wronged by Ewoks, Jar Jar or TFA and if you really go back you have the divisive reactions at the time to Empire, Star Wars hasn't been a universally loved thing since the first film and nowadays I even see that get crap from prequel fans and other such types. Star Wars is too many things to too many people to appease them all, what Johnson did wasn't cynical or nihilistic, what he did was an attempt to broaden the scope of the franchise and it was the right thing to do, if we don't get past the Skywalkers we may never escape the level of entitlement this fan base has. Look at Mandalorian's reception for proof of that.