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[zoukka]

It's a selfish thing to say. And ignorant. We have plenty of those two to go around.

It's also a way to elevate yourself above these "depressed" (inferior) beings, because "hey, I haven't killed myself so I am courageus".

 

[shanshan310]

go to bed

Its 4pm, but okay. If Plywood demands Plywood shall receive.

 

[mavs]

Suicide is irrational.

A part of your body functions in such a way that you will die imminently. That part of your body happens to be your mind. Well it's irrational yes, but you're still dead whether it's your mind or your aorta.

 

[Clydefrog]

Not always.

*scratches head*

 

[Salsa]

? Absolutely nothing about the act of suicide is inherently rational.

rational in the sense that I dont necessarely share the "people who kill themselves are crazy" aspect. I think life can be tough as shit (well I actually I dont even begin to understand how tough it must be for some) and people might do things on impulse. I dont categorize that as irrational

 

[umop_3pisdn]

I realize that other people depend on or feel pain from the loss but is it not more selfish to wish someone live through agony and despair in order to please you?

I think living for other people is a stupid idea, it's hollow because you have to have some regard for yourself to have any for other people, it's like trying to cover a gaping wound with a bandaid.

I do think though that it can come from the place where those having concern for the person considering suicide just want that person to be able to be happy, and suicide doesn't seem like the means to that end either.

Suicide is irrational.

The vast majority of our lives as human beings is irrational so this is kind of a meaningless statement, irrational doesn't necessarily mean bad.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Its 4pm, but okay. If Plywood demands Plywood shall receive.

Stop being australia!

 

[pants]

Depends on the culture surely? Seppuku doesnt have as much stigma in the east as suicide does in the west. Over here we often attribute it to a mental disorder, where over there it is seen as atonement to the older generation.

It's complicated.

 

[Deleted member 22576]

A lot of times people just repeat stuff without thinking about it.

 

[blackflag]

True or not, I have no idea but it certainly does sound like a dangerous thing to say to someone that us contemplating suicide.

 

[Devolution]

This topic always makes everyone so angry... I'm so tired of people being angry.

It makes people angry because the sheer amount of ignorance is staggering. How can an act of taking a life be selfish unless you're stipulating that one has a) an obligation to live and b) has to live for everyone but themselves and c) has to somehow ignore their depression or mental torture in order to please everyone else in their life.

 

[Plywood]

Its 4pm, but okay. If Plywood demands Plywood shall receive.

ɐıןɐɹʇsnɐ uı ǝןıɥʍuɐǝɯ

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

I realize that other people depend on or feel pain from the loss but is it not more selfish to wish someone live through agony and despair in order to please you?

Why can't we wish they get better? It's not that I want someone to suffer but I'm optimistic. You are describing a terminal condition or a condition with no hope of changing but I would assume most suicides are not related to this kind of situation.

 

[BravesCountry]

I realize that other people depend on or feel pain from the loss but is it not more selfish to wish someone live through agony and despair in order to please you?

There are more options than living through agony and despair or killing yourself.

 

[Jitters]

This topic always makes everyone so angry... I'm so tired of people being angry.

I'm always angry.




Some might say suicide is selfish just to get the person to fight through this tough time.

 

[jtb]

I only think of it as irrational in the sense that you're choosing between something and nothing, so what's the point of choosing nothing? you're not gonna be "better off"

other than that, taking your own life seems pretty rational as far as acts go

Well it's irrational in that it almost always is a decision made when you are not thinking rationally due to mental illness, which by definition skews your perception of reality. That's why I'd call it "irrational" even if suicide is a pretty simple decision calculus at the end of the day.

 

[zoukka]

Depends on the culture surely? Seppuku doesnt have as much stigma in the east as suicide does in the west. Over here we often attribute it to a mental disorder, where over there it is seen as atonement to the older generation.

It's complicated.

I have to guess "seppuku" isn't a very common tradition in anywhere anymore.

 

[Salsa]

Well it's irrational in that it almost always is a decision made when you are not thinking rationally due to mental illness, which by definition skews your perception of reality. That's why I'd call it "irrational" even if suicide is a pretty simple decision calculus at the end of the day.

sure, it depends on how you look at it

 

[Yaboosh]

rational in the sense that I dont necessarely share the "people who kill themselves are crazy" aspect.

Making blanket statements about an act that has motivations that vary widely from person to person makes no sense.

One person may commit suicide because they are dying from a painful cancer. One may commit suicide because they lost all of their money to gambling. One may do it because they are insanely depressed. The first two may be entirely rational. The last one not.

 

[Devolution]

Why can't we wish they get better? It's not that I want someone to suffer but I'm optimistic. You are describing a terminal condition or a condition with no hope of changing but I would assume most suicides are not related to this kind of situation.

There are more options than living through agony and despair or killing yourself.

Why are you acting like I'm stipulating suicide is the only answer? I'm merely talking about the response to the act itself.

 

[Speedy Blue Dude]

I honestly didn't truly understand depression until I checked out the Depression Threads and a few related ones on GAF.

Changed my mind on the way I felt about it, and my mind on depression. I didn't truly understand it, and always thought of it as "People who are depressed are just people who are sad and can't get over it.", and I thought of suicide as "People who are just sad and irrational and can't just get over it." Really wrong and pathetic of me. I feel most people who think "suicide is selfish" are in the same vote, they just truly don't understand it.

The whole attitude that "conquering your issues" is brave and respectable while "committing suicide" is idiotic. Depression is really psychological and medical and most people don't understand that.


I still think that suicide is never the answer, and there are always better options than it, but those options all require something the person complementing suicide doesn't have, or couldn't receive, money, medical help, support, etc. It's sad because most of the time it revolves around the person not getting the help he/she requires. Society needs to work on that.

Suicide is in no way Selfish/Cowardly.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Human interaction is not a one-sided street, it works both ways. As social animals the interactions and connections we make we others is a joint-effort.

For some who suffer severe depression, living life is a torment. I would not wish torment on anyone. The best possible scenario is taking some panacea for depression but it doesn't exist.

 

[Haly]

You could elaborate you know.

There are a few factors:

1) In cases of severe clinical depression where someone's hormones are all fucked up, "selfish" doesn't really carry a lot of weight nor does it make sense to them. If someone reaches that point and entertains thoughts of or successfully commits suicide, I can't blame them at all. I'd blame everyone around them.

2) There must be a point where life is no longer worth living. At least, for myself, I can think of many hypothetical scenarios where this is would true. From there, I can assume that everyone has their own personal limits for when they deem suicide to be an appropriate course of action and it's not my right to assume what their reasons are or if they're "moral".

3) I've considered the idea of suicide before. Not seriously, but more as a mental exercise. I'm in a position where depression is a constant possibility in my life and I wanted a safeguard against that. My original stance (that suicide was selfish) was to take advantage of both my pride and my guilt to make sure I never reach that point.

There can be selfish suicides, but because of the reasons above, I have come to realize that not all suicides are necessarily selfish. So these days my stance is: "My suicide would be wholly selfish, but I have no right to judge other people's suicides or motivations for them."

 

[pants]

I have to guess "seppuku" isn't a very common tradition in anywhere anymore.

Seppuku as a ritual? No. The suicide rate is still stupidly high as a legacy though.

 

[Salsa]

b) has to live for everyone but themselves

this is what makes it not that surprising to read tho. There's this weird sense of "heroism" going around (specially when someone just writes stuff) where you should absolutely put everyone else before you as far as priorities go, and that's just bullshit

Making blanket statements about an act that has motivations that vary widely from person to person makes no sense.

One person may commit suicide because they are dying from a painful cancer. One may commit suicide because they lost all of their money to gambling. One may do it because they are insanely depressed. The first two may be entirely rational. The last one not.

well then you don't disagree with me!

 

[shanshan310]

It makes people angry because the sheer amount of ignorance is staggering. How can an act of taking a life be selfish unless you're stipulating that one has a) an obligation to live and b) has to live for everyone but themselves and c) has to somehow ignore their depression or mental torture in order to please everyone else in their life.

Because some people are mourning and in pain.

 

[Lissar]

I only think of it as irrational in the sense that you're choosing between something and nothing, so what's the point of choosing nothing? you're not gonna be "better off"

other than that, taking your own life seems pretty rational as far as acts go

It's not rational. They are not choosing it out of a wish to die. No one truly wishes to die. They wish for the pain to stop, nothing they do can make it stop, and once they get to that point they are pretty desperate. Think of it like an animal being chased by a predator. They can't just tell it to go away and everything will be fine. Eventually they're cornered. They don't know what to do. They might do something that is completely irrational at that point, because they are trapped. They no longer can think rationally. When people get to the point of considering suicide, that's what it's like for them. They don't want to die, but they don't know how to escape the pain.

 

[Clydefrog]

devo i like you pls don't do it

 

[Yaboosh]

this is what makes it not that surprising to read tho. There's this weird sense of "heroism" going around (specially when someone just writes stuff) where you should absolutely put everyone else before you as far as priorities go, and that's just bullshit



well then you don't disagree with me!

If you think that suicide can be either rational or irrational depending on the person, sure.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Thank you. The "cowardly" bullshit pisses me off too.

I think the ability to take ones own life is anything but cowardly. It takes a ton of courage to face death and actually follow through with it.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

this is what makes it not that surprising to read tho. There's this weird sense of "heroism" going around (specially when someone just writes stuff) where you should absolutely put everyone else before you as far as priorities go, and that's just bullshit



well then you don't disagree with me!

Anecdote:

I find this to be more common of an attitude in america of all places.
It's kinda odd, how rugged individualism is a highly held trait and ideal, yet at the same time you got a crazy amount of (unselfish) hero worshipping.

 

[Pavaloo]

The only way I've ever thought of a suicide being selfish is in a situation where the person say just drives into oncoming traffic. Otherwise, really I can't dictate a person's fate. I mean if they truly want to end their life, who am I to say otherwise?

 

[Narag]

It makes people angry because the sheer amount of ignorance is staggering. How can an act of taking a life be selfish unless you're stipulating that one has a) an obligation to live and b) has to live for everyone but themselves and c) has to somehow ignore their depression or mental torture in order to please everyone else in their life.

I think that level of ignorance is what bothers me when this is discussed. People are too eager to take a simple comfortable stance because it's easier to do that than actually consider the complexity of the matter.

 

[computers putin']

It's not rational. They are not choosing it out of a wish to die. No one truly wishes to die. They wish for the pain to stop, nothing they do can make it stop, and once they get to that point they are pretty desperate. Think of it like an animal being chased by a predator. They can't just tell it to go away and everything will be fine. Eventually they're cornered. They don't know what to do. They might do something that is completely irrational at that point, because they are trapped. They no longer can think rationally. When people get to the point of considering suicide, that's what it's like for them. They don't want to die, but they don't know how to escape the pain.

good post.

 

[Salsa]

It's not rational. They are not choosing it out of a wish to die. No one truly wishes to die. They wish for the pain to stop, nothing they do can make it stop, and once they get to that point they are pretty desperate. Think of it like an animal being chased by a predator. They can't just tell it to go away and everything will be fine. Eventually they're cornered. They don't know what to do. They might do something that is completely irrational at that point, because they are trapped. They no longer can think rationally. When people get to the point of considering suicide, that's what it's like for them. They don't want to die, but they don't know how to escape the pain.

Sure, thus they think "I cant escape this, might as well end it", that's, in a way, a completely rational solution, in the sense that in your mind you arrive to that conclusion by ways of rational thinking. Stupid and pointless as it might be.

That's the angle I was taking, as others showed it depends on your definition, I was thinking of irrationality as far as the act itself goes. I dont disagree with you.

If you think that suicide can be either rational or irrational depending on the person, sure.

most def

 

[Karkador]

For me, the question is more, 'can you ever respect the act of killing someone, even if it's suicide?'. If someone kills another person, there is more to judge about that act than the part about having taken someone's life against their will. There's also the thought that the person committed lethal aggression. It's a monstrous low in the eyes of many. Is there a difference in doing that to yourself? I'm not really sure.

I do agree that the 'cowardly/selfish' thing is a poor thing to say, though.

 

[RM8]

It's not rational. They are not choosing it out of a wish to die. No one truly wishes to die. They wish for the pain to stop, nothing they do can make it stop, and once they get to that point they are pretty desperate. Think of it like an animal being chased by a predator. They can't just tell it to go away and everything will be fine. Eventually they're cornered. They don't know what to do. They might do something that is completely irrational at that point, because they are trapped. They no longer can think rationally. When people get to the point of considering suicide, that's what it's like for them. They don't want to die, but they don't know how to escape the pain.

Pretty much. You can't be a healthy, rational person and desire death. It goes against the most basic of our instincts.

 

[zoukka]

Seppuku as a ritual? No. The suicide rate is still stupidly high as a legacy though.

You need to cough up some research linking the tradition of seppuku rites to modern suicide rates in Japan or something :b

 

[ant1532]

I realize that other people depend on or feel pain from the loss but is it not more selfish to wish someone live through agony and despair in order to please you?

So you think it is ok then to pass your agony and despair to someone else? People just don't feel a little pain or loss either, and you're not PLEASING people by not committing suicide. And people don't want others to not commit suicide because they want them to be in agony either. That's all angst bullshit. Depression is not a terminal disease of the mind. It doesn't last a lifetime, although 15 years can seem like a lifetime, it goes and it gets better.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Whether due to extreme mental illness (grief, PTSD, depression) or from external factors (living in a hellscape where you could be murdered at any moment like probably millions of people right this second, being in an inescapable cycle of abuse), it isn't up to happy, mentally sound individuals to declare whether your act was one of cowardice or not. That comes across as a total lack of empathy to me.

There's a simpler angle, too: Imagine you are plagued by constant thoughts of how worthless you are. You try to kill yourself. Someone close to you says, "how could you ever try to do that? Only cowards would do that! Are you a coward?" It isn't a far logical leap for a depressed person to think in that moment, "yes, I guess you're right. I guess I am a coward."

Referring to a suicidal person as "cowardly" only actively harms them. The person it helps is you, as you get to assign some kind of abstract trait to explain away why this sad thing would occur instead of confronting it and trying to understand it. It becomes, instead, a question of manliness, and you, apparently, passed the test. Good for you! You're number one at life!

Goddamn, I love this post.

 

[Yaboosh]

Sure, thus they think "I cant escape this, might as well end it", that's, in a way, a completely rational solution. Stupid and pointless as it might be.

That's the angle I was taking, as others showed it depends on your definition, I was thinking of irrationality as far as the act itself goes.

An insane person can have reasons for doing something but that doesn't make it rational.

 

[Laughing Banana]

It makes people angry because the sheer amount of ignorance is staggering. How can an act of taking a life be selfish unless you're stipulating that one has a) an obligation to live and b) has to live for everyone but themselves and c) has to somehow ignore their depression or mental torture in order to please everyone else in their life.

I know you (probably?) does not intend to make it sound like if, say, a person you know/care about comes to you and say, "Devolution, I am seriously depressed, and I want to kill myself", you will only reply with "Okay, it's your right to do it, I am not gonna try to stop you." but man, it does sound like it.

 

[zoukka]

For me, the question is more, 'can you ever respect the act of killing someone, even if it's suicide?'. If someone kills another person, there is more to judge about that act than the part about having taken someone's life against their will. There's also the thought that the person committed lethal aggression. It's a monstrous low in the eyes of many. Is there a difference in doing that to yourself? I'm not really sure.

Is there a difference in me storking my dick and me stroking your dick?

What a ridiculous (religious?) moral stance to take.

 

[BravesCountry]

Why are you acting like I'm stipulating suicide is the only answer? I'm merely talking about the response to the act itself.

It's because of the way you phrased it. The people that are hurt by a suicide of a loved one aren't wishing that the person would live through agony and despair instead as you phrased it. They are wishing they could have helped the person get better.

 

[pants]

/Tangent

I remember a lot of times George Bush called suicide bombers 'cowardly' in speeches, I never really got that either. These people were committing vile crimes but it seemed weird to purposefully mislabel them and I always thought this would piss them off more.

You need to cough up some research linking the tradition of seppuku rites to modern suicide rates in Japan or something :b

Maybe later, i'm still in a happy mood this morning so I don't want to ruin that by searching through a large volume of morbidity. =p

 

[jtb]

For me, the question is more, 'can you ever respect the act of killing someone, even if it's suicide?'. If someone kills another person, there is more to judging that act than just having taken someone's life against their will. There's also the thought that the person committed lethal aggression. It's a monstrous low in the eyes of many. Is there a difference in doing that to yourself? I'm not really sure.

I do agree that the 'cowardly/selfish' thing is a poor thing to say, though.

Of course there's a difference between murder and suicide. One, you're violating another's freedom without their consent. The other is your own life and you can do with it as you please.

How on earth is there not a gigantic distinction between the two?

 

[buy teh haloz]

It's inherently selfish I think, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that necessarily.

 

[ant1532]

Again, whether or not it is right or wrong is irrelevant when the person is not acting rationally.

no it's still relevant.

 

[triplestation]

it is selfish for someone who has a family because they got a careless attitude about how much pain it can bring them

not everyone lives in individual bubbles some people are mad tight with eachother like families

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

You are right OP, but it looks like some people took your post and ran away with it saying that suicide is rational or sometimes the right thing to do. IMO it's never rational or the right thing to do.