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[crazy_about_denise]

Most people are cowards.
Most people are selfish.

There you go.

 

[Salsa]

An insane person can have reasons for doing something but that doesn't make it rational.

this is going well beyond than I intended, I guess the best way of putting it is that I was taking the very short post of "suicide is irrational" as the other common argument of "you must be crazy to kill yourself"

guess that as this discussion showed, those can be two different things

 

[Anticitizen One]

Well it's selfish concerning the loved ones that end up devastated by the suicide.

 

[strata8]

There was something posted on Reddit a few months ago about this.

My roommate took her own life recently. If I had just one more second with her, I would punch her in the face.

Over the summer, my best friend, my roommate, gave in. It became too much for her. She hung herself in her bedroom.

While this sounds completely and unforgivably fucked up, it was the absolute meanest, most selfishly asshole thing that anybody has ever done to me. To me, to her mother, to her sister, her Godson, her boyfriend, her friends, and her entire family. To her dog. She left herself hanging there, tragically dramatic, to be found, and that sight is not something you can un-see. I’ve been so unbelievably angry at her recently, I need to get this off my chest.

It was pretty meticulously planned out. She had cleaned her room, wore a nice outfit, wiped her iPod, even changed her profile picture on Facebook. All of this planning went into her suicide, all of this thought.
She had been in trouble for a long time. Suicide was something that was almost constantly on her mind for years. She was also beautiful, a talented writer, a fantastic tennis player, the best friend that I’ve ever had. A sweet girl, a little derpy, who was socially awkward and had big dreams and a tiny bank account.

See the thing is, the person who kills themselves leaves all the real work to those they leave behind. She wasn’t thinking about who would have to clean up after her. The police officers and EMTs who were horror struck, people who have taken pledges to serve, protect, heal. People who serve their communities and neighbors, trying to keep the city clean and safe and healthy, instead being called in to cut down a 22 year old hanging from her hammock. Human beings who don’t know what to say, can’t even look at the people who called 911. Who have to take pictures of it, by law. I know that police officers are supposed to be badass, used to trouble in all forms, but I have never seen that kind of absolute horror on someone’s face before.

She planned out her outfit, but not what would happen to all of her clothes. She didn’t think about where her dirty laundry would go. Who would pack her stuff up, how long it would take them, how unbelievably nightmarish that particular process would be for us. What do we do with her toothbrush? Her favorite shoes, all worn out and dirty, by the door? All of her belongings, 22 years worth, dresses and books and shampoo, packed in boxes and sitting in the living room of her mother’s tiny apartment. A literal mountain of grief.

She didn’t think about who would have to call her mother. She didn’t think about how completely impossible it is to bring up “oh, by the way, your daughter is dead” into a conversation. She didn’t think it would take three days for her mother to find out. She didn’t have any idea how expensive funerals are, how it would wipe out everything her immigrant family has broken their backs struggling and saving for decades. How many details go into planning them. The impossible situation of trying to plan a wake, funeral, and burial when your world has literally come to an end.

When you die, you don’t disappear. It’s not actually the end. When you die, someone has to find your dead body. Somebody has to get you to a hospital. Somebody needs to fill out your paperwork, find you a funeral home, get in contact with everybody you know. Somebody needs to find you something to wear. Somebody needs to plan your makeup. Somebody needs to pick you out a coffin. Make sure you get in that coffin. Hire a car equipped to drive that coffin around. Find you a grave. Get everybody you knew into a cohesive, informed organization. Make sure that your mother didn’t succeed in following you. Figure out where the fucking world you buy tombstones from. It’s all the work of planning a Super Sweet 16 at a moment’s notice except your heart has physically been ripped out of your chest and all your guts are leaking out everywhere.

When you die, people who loved you have to look at your dead body. If you die in an exceptionally sensational way, such as suicide by hanging, this causes extra gut-leaking.

When you die, your roommates have to live out your lease, or uproot their lives to get the fuck out of there. When you die, your Godkids still have birthdays. When you die, your mom still tries to call you on Sunday afternoons.

I almost would have preferred that she had been murdered. It would be possible to accept her death as a murder. There were ways she could have made it look like an accident.

I sound like the most selfish fucked up excuse for a human being, I know. It’s been a few months, and I have gone from previously inconceivable terror and grief to absolute fury. Of all the things that I have ever experienced, I feel like this might actually kill me. I am so angry and pissed off because I feel like there was absolutely no purpose behind this. Intellectually, I know that she was sick, but personally, I know that she didn’t have to die. There is always somewhere to go. There is always another course of action. All those issues that loomed so large before she died were temporary situations. Time goes on no matter what, and nothing lasts forever. She could have gone home to Peru, to her mother’s house, she could have joined a fricken convent or even just taken off like a gypsy. She could have joined one of those silent meditation shaved head type deals. She could have pulled some ‘Into the Wild’ type shit. She did not have to die.

Of course, there is another explanation. Maybe she WAS thinking about us. Thinking about this is what fuels my fury, it’s the only way that the nameless, paralyzing, nauseating feeling can manifest in my consciousness. She knew we would find her. She knew we would have to clean up after her, call her mother, look at her lying there on that steel table in the basement of the hospital with a giant ridge in her neck and her tongue split in half. She needed us to know that it was our fault. She needed us to know just how badly we had failed her. She was so angry with us, this was the only thing she could do to demonstrate the depths of her disappointment in the people, the society, she thought we were. She needed to show the world how it had betrayed her. She wanted to punish her family. She wanted us to suffer.

And you know what? We really, really are.

Anyway, that's my dirty little rant to the internet.

Rest in Peace, Chickadee.


EDIT: This is my r/offmychest, meaning it is something that I needed to get off my chest. It is not, and never claimed to be, a complete, in depth, point by point detailing of my roommates death, or our relationship. It's just how I feel. Stage 2 of Grief, I believe.

EDIT 2: After punching her, I would grab her, smush her into my bosom, and never never ever let her go.

From the outside perspective, suicide is a selfish act. I'm not going to deny that, because it's fundamentally true. At the same time though I don't think you can call someone who commits suicide as being selfish, not when you haven't been in the situation they have.

 

[RawkHawk2010]

I guess if it's someone you really care about (and presumably someone that cares back), them committing suicide shows that you weren't enough to keep living for.

But above all, I'm a firm believer in the right to die, so I don't think such a decision should ever be disrespected with "How selfish!" nonsense. I would just recommend leaving a suicide note as to not leave loved ones in the dark for why they did it. Closure is the most important thing here.

 

[JABEE]

It makes people angry because the sheer amount of ignorance is staggering. How can an act of taking a life be selfish unless you're stipulating that one has a) an obligation to live and b) has to live for everyone but themselves and c) has to somehow ignore their depression or mental torture in order to please everyone else in their life.

Just like the person committing suicide may be thinking emotionally, so do the people that experience a family member take their own lives. Why can't someone feel angry or betrayed by someone that killed themselves and have to come up with a rational reason for their feelings?

Sometimes people feel things that they may regret later. I would never hold a grudge or be mad at someone going through the shock of seeing someone they truly love and depend on be taken from those that care about them. I think as humans we should have the same consideration for the victims of depression that we have for the victims of the collateral damage done by the results.

You are right that people are wrong in saying that and it may hurt other to say it, but I would never tell someone that they shouldn't feel robbed when someone they loved dies. These conversations in the way it has been framed can only exist in a textbook or a philosophy class.

Few people can think in a rational, somewhat robotic way when faced with extreme emotional trauma.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

For me, the question is more, 'can you ever respect the act of killing someone, even if it's suicide?'. If someone kills another person, there is more to judge about that act than the part about having taken someone's life against their will. There's also the thought that the person committed lethal aggression. It's a monstrous low in the eyes of many. Is there a difference in doing that to yourself? I'm not really sure.

I do agree that the 'cowardly/selfish' thing is a poor thing to say, though.

I've never thought of it in that way before actually.
Thing is, the "taking someone's life against their will" is really the most monstrous thing about killing, but even that is dependant on whether or not the individual killed is "innocent" or not.
A terrorist's or murderer's death is probably celebrated by many, and no thought is given to the lethal aggression or the life taken against their will.

Though, they switch that back on when an innocent is killing himself you reckon?
Perhaps, perhaps. It's a view I can understand, but it's not one I agree with.

 

[Yaboosh]

You are right OP, but it looks like some people took your post and ran away with it saying that suicide is rational or sometimes the right thing to do. IMO it's never rational or the right thing to do.

So somebody dying of a painful cancer cannot rationally decide to commit suicide?

 

[Haly]

Depression is not a terminal disease of the mind. It doesn't last a lifetime, although 15 years can seem like a lifetime, it goes and it gets better.

Not if the depression is caused by something else, say, some genetic factor or another disease. Then it just keeps coming back.

Making blanket statements is stupid.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

So you think it is ok then to pass your agony and despair to someone else? People just don't feel a little pain or loss either, and you're not PLEASING people by not committing suicide. And people don't want others to not commit suicide because they want them to be in agony either. That's all angst bullshit. Depression is not a terminal disease of the mind. It doesn't last a lifetime, although 15 years can seem like a lifetime, it goes and it gets better.

There is depression, and schizophrenia, and PTSD, and cancer, and Alzheimer's, and etc.

If it's not clear to you yet, the reasons behind why people would end their own lives are not reasons they chose, and they are not things they can just move on from.

 

[KevinCow]

Here's what annoys me.

A dude's walking around with a bullet in his spine or something that causes physical agony every time he moves, people at least sympathize and understand why he might want to just go ahead and end it.

But someone's walking around in mental and emotional agony most of the time because their brain doesn't work right, no sympathy. Because apparently that kind of pain doesn't "count".

 

[Prax]

I think of suicide as a really unfortunate act out of desperation.
Selfish or not, it's understandable that people want to avoid suffering, and if that suffering is great enough, it can be seen as the only or "best" solution, especially to someone who is in a place where they can't reason properly or have enough mental fortitude to think up of something else.
And yes, it's kind of selfish for people to want the person suffering to continue suffering out of hope they will get better or on principle or because it would bother them/burden them in some way if that person were dead.

But I don't think being selfish is necessarily bad, either.

I just want people to be able to find ways to enjoy their lives as much as they can and reduce suffering for themselves and others in general. So I hope it never has to come down to suicide, but I think there are some situations where it does meet the criteria for being a reasonable choice (e.g. euthanasia for patients who are suffering and terminally ill). I think for the majority of people though, if they were not suffering or if they could find a solution to relieve themselves of suffering more or are convinced their lives are worth more than the pain they feel, they would not choose suicide if they could make the choice in a rational state of mind.

 

[Salsa]

You are right OP, but it looks like some people took your post and ran away with it saying that suicide is rational or sometimes the right thing to do. IMO it's never rational or the right thing to do.

I feel like I already clarified but another way to put it is this: I can understand how someone might think about their situation and arrive at the realization that they could kill themselves to just give up on it. I can follow it, even if I dont share it. That's what I meant by it being achievable through rational thought. Irrational thought to me just sounds (and perhaps im completely mistaken by this) like something a regular thinking person couldnt even consider or understand.

 

[Lissar]

For me, the question is more, 'can you ever respect the act of killing someone, even if it's suicide?'. If someone kills another person, there is more to judge about that act than the part about having taken someone's life against their will. There's also the thought that the person committed lethal aggression. It's a monstrous low in the eyes of many. Is there a difference in doing that to yourself? I'm not really sure.

I do agree that the 'cowardly/selfish' thing is a poor thing to say, though.

With homicide, someone is making the choice for you. It is out of your hands whether or not you die. With suicide (unless you commit it in such a way that it harms others) you are only (physically) harming yourself. While both acts stem from mental illness, one is taking away choice from another person. If you are so desperate you make that choice for yourself, I can feel only pity.

 

[AppleMIX]

I don't necessarily agree with the idea but it's kind of hard to not think it's selfish when their are people who are having trouble finding food for the next day, living in literal shitholes and making pennies a day.

But still... kind of hard to hold it against them.

 

[Yaboosh]

Making blanket statements is stupid.

This blanket statement is awesome.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

Those who think it's selfish are generally those who havent been there themselves. The level of suffering one has to get to to consider taking their own life is beyond comprehension. To those who 'don't understand' why someone would commit suicide...its because you don't realize the spectrum of human emotion goes way, way lower than you've personally experienced.

Suicide is giving up, in a way. But it's not cowardly. It's what someone turns to when they are in such an unliveable amount of pain that there seems to be literally no other way out.

Think about it for a second. Think about how much pain, mental or physical, you would have to be in to get there. It boggles the mind.

Too many people don't take the time to realize that their emotional spectrum is not universal.

Nope, I've been there, picked my place (Ben Franklin bridge in Philly because the 7 story parking lot had a lot of grass and I didn't want to fail spectacularly) but I think it was selfish of me. I was depressed for at least 2 years. It was also very temporary.

I can agree about the word, 'cowardly' since I was too much a coward to do it. It's a hell of a thing to stare into your life like that and want to end it. I usually view someone claiming suicide to be cowardly as very emotionally charged. The same emotions that draw us close to each other and make it hard to separate from each other. I see a lot of beauty and love in it. It annoys me but also fills me up with hope. To me, it's the same reason people have a hard time letting go when their elders get past a certain age, stop talking, yet they can't pull the plug.

 

[pants]

It's inherently selfish I think, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that necessarily.

I live a very selfish life and I'm not ashamed of it. The word selfish seem to set people off though :/

 

[smokeandmirrors]

This blanket statement is awesome.

"This page is intentionally left blank"

 

[RM8]

Irrational thought to me just sounds (and perhaps im completely mistaken by this) like something a regular thinking person couldnt even consider.

I don't think a healthy, regular thinking person can desire death.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Here's what annoys me.

A dude's walking around with a bullet in his spine or something that causes physical agony every time he moves, people at least sympathize and understand why he might want to just go ahead and end it.

But someone's walking around in mental and emotional agony most of the time because their brain doesn't work right, no sympathy. Because apparently that kind of pain doesn't "count".

Despite us all having brains, most people don't appear to use them well. They seem unaware that it is a physical object that controls us and can be damaged.

Someone's having heart attacks, and ant1532's all like "dude just stop having heart attacks. Your arteries will fix themselves over time. It gets better."

 

[triplestation]

a kid comes home from school one day and sees that his sister commited harakiri

the kid starts crying and sees a suicide note

the suicide note says Do I owe my existence to anyone other than myself? Fuck right off.

 

[Haly]

it is selfish for someone who has a family because they got a careless attitude about how much pain it can bring them

not everyone lives in individual bubbles some people are mad tight with eachother like families

For someone undergoing severe depression, the idea of being a burden on one's family (a feeling that comes out of love mind you), can make their condition worse.

Again, depression and suicide is too multifacted to make any blanket statements.

 

[Salsa]

is thinking of myself before others selfish?

I think that's one of the basis here

 

[Yaboosh]

is thinking of myself before others selfish?

I think that's one of the basis here

Only according to the dictionary.

 

[Karkador]

Is there a difference in me storking my dick and me stroking your dick?

What a ridiculous (religious?) moral stance to take.

The ridiculous part is this false equivalency you've made.

Of course there's a difference between murder and suicide. One, you're violating another's freedom without their consent. The other is your own life and you can do with it as you please.

How on earth is there not a gigantic distinction between the two?

Did you read half of my post? I'm talking about other than personal rights. But yeah, we judge and disallow people acts of aggression that are non-lethal, too, including against themselves. I do think we generally don't accept acts of violence & harm as good, welcome or 'normal', however you'd like to interpret those. So does that attitude change when violence/harm is self-inflicted? Should we look at it as you put it, that it's fine because they did it to themselves?

 

[Salsa]

Only according to the dictionary.

sure, but to the practical implementation. It is one thing to think about doing something for someone else as long as it doesnt interfere with your own personal situation much. But to put it blindly in front of EVERYTHING no matter what?

thinking of oneself before others is not the same thing as purely thinking about oneself

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Here's what annoys me.

A dude's walking around with a bullet in his spine or something that causes physical agony every time he moves, people at least sympathize and understand why he might want to just go ahead and end it.

But someone's walking around in mental and emotional agony most of the time because their brain doesn't work right, no sympathy. Because apparently that kind of pain doesn't "count".

Or what if someone just wants to die.

Existential crisis isn't really a pain, and I wouldn't call it irrational either.

When it comes down to it, the real reason people object to suicide is not that it's irrational or viewed as a selfish act - but that people are themselves selfish. As mentioned previously in the thread, the person killing themselves don't have to deal with their deaths - it's everyone around them that has to. We are those people, as most of us do not have suicidal thoughts, and I suppose the thought of closed ones killing themselves have lead to the rather widespread social norm of suicide being wrong.

If someone wishing to commit suicide is selfish, then everyone surrounding them are doubly selfish.

 

[Haly]

I guess "suicide is selfish" makes perfect sense from a semantic point of view.

Too bad grammar doesn't make the world go around.

 

[jtb]

The ridiculous part is this false equivalency you've made.



Did you read half of my post? I'm talking about other than personal rights. But yeah, we judge and disallow people acts of aggression that are non-lethal, too, including against themselves.

Non-lethal acts of aggression against others still violate freedoms. Against oneself they do not. The point remains... What gives you the right to judge or even restrict someone's actions if it does not violate another's freedom?

 

[ant1532]

Despite us all having brains, most people don't appear to use them well. They seem unaware that it is a physical object that controls us and can be damaged.

Someone's having heart attacks, and ant1532's all like "dude just stop having heart attacks. Your arteries will fix themselves over time. It gets better."

yeah that's what i said.

 

[Satch]

After spending years and years of living life for other people, attempting suicide was probably the first thing that I had ever done for myself. It was a pretty educational experience.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

yeah that's what i said.

You diagnosed what is wrong with people and decided they'll get over it in time.

 

[zoukka]

is thinking of myself before others selfish?

I think that's one of the basis here

Not that simple at all.

 

[BrokenEchelon]

By definition, a selfish action is:

Adjective
(of a person, action, or motive) Lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.

If one is suffering, suicide resolves that suffering, allowing them to no longer suffer.
If one has a family, significant others, etc. then their suicide will impact those individuals negatively.

Since suicide is an act which only you can perform on yourself, it is 100% concerned chielf with one's own personal profit, where profit in this sense is the escape from pain, illness, responsibility, whatever.

I guess the only case where it wouldn't be selfish is if someone was trying to get their family an insurance payday or some situation similar to that.

Is it cowardly? I'm sure it's one of the most terrifying things a person can possibly do, but on the other hand it's taking the easy way out which many often view as cowardly, but depends heavily on context.

I don't think you can really just toss it in either category and make an ultimate judgement. It can be selfish and cowardly, it can be brave, it can be altruistic.

 

[Salsa]

Or what if someone just wants to die.

man this is the other thing, more related to the first post I made here

everyone's entitled to die whenever they fuck they want! it's their life.

It's the only thing that is 100% yours and you have complete control over. This idea of being obligated to exist no matter what situation you're in is a fucked up way of thinking.

Not that simple at all.

seems to be for some. In reality it's not that simple either way. This is not a simple matter in general.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

I guess "suicide is selfish" makes perfect sense from a semantic point of view.

Too bad grammar doesn't make the world go around.

Grammar is also highly dynamic so there's that.

 

[RM8]

man this is the other thing, more related to the first post I made here

everyone's entitled to die whenever they fuck they want! it's their life.

It's the only thing that is 100% your and you have complete control over. This idea of being obligated to exist no matter what situation you're in is a fucked up way of thinking.

Still, suicide is way too closely related to mental illness. To the point where it's not very responsible to treat is as "yeah, it's their right, let people kill themselves".

 

[PK Gaming]

"Suicide is selfish" is a selfish claim to make in itself.

Besides, it's been said that suicide is like being on the rooftop of a burning building. Dying by flames or jumping -- there's no alternative.

EDIT: devolution's "Zeus" avatar is back

 

[Salsa]

Still, suicide is way too closely related to mental illness. To the point where it's not very responsible to treat is as "yeah, it's their right, let people kill themselves".

Im just more on the way of thinking that it's impossible to be in someone else's head. No matter what I cannot know what other people are going through. So: it's their thing. I cannot judge from a place as if I knew anything. It's absolutely their right as far as im concerned. I think that to claim otherwise is in itself a way of saying that you can comprehend everyone out there with those thoughts, at least a little bit, and really that's just not true.

 

[shanshan310]

Still, suicide is way too closely related to mental illness. To the point where it's not very responsible to treat is as "yeah, it's their right, let people kill themselves".

I agree with this. We should be trying to help people get treatment and find worth in life again.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Still, suicide is way too closely related to mental illness. To the point where it's not very responsible to treat is as "yeah, it's their right, let people kill themselves".

I wouldn't say that suicide is related to mental illness.
It's a value neutral act in itself, but it can often be the result of mental illnesses or irrational thinking.
The problem is when this result in restrictions on individuals who wish to kill themselves, but do not suffer from a mental illness or irrational thinking.

I'm all for setting up restrictions on euthanasia nonetheless, as it does give us a chance to help those with mental illnesses or irrational thinking, but with enough safety checks I think it should be a legal option for people.

 

[Karkador]

Non-lethal acts of aggression against others still violate freedoms. Against oneself they do not. The point remains... What gives you the right to judge or even restrict someone's actions if it does not violate another's freedom?

I edited and expanded my response. I'm not claiming any right to restrict, though. But as people, we will be affected by these things and are going to weigh them anyway.

 

[jtb]

Still, suicide is way too closely related to mental illness. To the point where it's not very responsible to treat is as "yeah, it's their right, let people kill themselves".

Well telling them that suicide is selfish and cowardly sure as fuck isn't going to stop them from doing it either. Obviously this thread is about addressing idiotic stigmas that surround mental illness- no one has suggested that mentally ill people should commit suicide.

But if they do, why should we judge them negatively? Should we not just mourn their passing rather than trying to vilify them?

 

[FStop7]

Its 4pm, but okay. If Plywood demands Plywood shall receive.

Don't forget your Vegemite

 

[umop_3pisdn]

I've never thought of it in that way before actually.
Thing is, the "taking someone's life against their will" is really the most monstrous thing about killing, but even that is dependant on whether or not the individual killed is "innocent" or not.
A terrorist's or murderer's death is probably celebrated by many, and no thought is given to the lethal aggression or the life taken against their will.

Though, they switch that back on when an innocent is killing himself you reckon?
Perhaps, perhaps. It's a view I can understand, but it's not one I agree with.

Regardless of the most extreme examples I think the moral character of killing is mostly to do with intentionally causing harm. If you cause harm without the intention it's an accident, but if you intend to cause harm and fail then you're more morally responsible than you would be in the case of an accident. But suicide might be better characterized as a kind of accident, I think intentionality would be obviously very compromised by their circumstances, but I also don't think it would be a complete accident, but as others have mentioned making this moral distinction does raise the question of why a person would do that, or if it's to sort of morally congratulate themselves or something which is missing the point of why a person would engage in ethical reflection I think. I do think it's probably a decision that does have some moral character to it, but it's kind of ridiculous to make this a discussion about that considering that if we can consider it a 'failing' it's a ridiculously human and understandable one that for all we know we would make under the same circumstances. We can have a moral guideline like "killing (ourselves or others) is morally problematic", but as a standard that's something that we try to live up to instead of using it as a metric to judge the 'failings' of others, and we're still allowed to 'fail' it just might be better if we don't.

 

[Professor Beef]

Fuck right off.

Yeah, that'll show that selfish sister.

 

[Salsa]

I agree with this. We should be trying to help people get treatment and find worth in life again.

dude don't get me wrong, this post right here in no way acts as an opposition to what im saying

if a friend decides to kill himself tomorrow I wont be all "ah whatevs, it's your life", nor will I be any less supportive of treatment or doing ANYTHING I can to make that not happen. Im just saying that as a core conceptual thing, that's my stance.

 

[RM8]

Im just more on the way of thinking that it's impossible to be in someone else's head. No matter what I cannot know what other people are going through. So: it's their thing. I cannot judge from a place as if I knew anything. It's absolutely their right as far as im concerned.

It's not judging in my opinion - but trying to help people and prevent suicide should always be a priority in my opinion. Suicide prevention works, counseling works, happy people don't decide to kill themselves nearly as much as depressed people, right? It's most definitely not a matter of "hey, it's his/her decision! let's respect it!".

 

[Salsa]

It's not judging in my opinion - but trying to help people and prevent suicide should always be a priority in my opinion. Suicide prevention works, counseling works, happy people don't decide to kill themselves nearly as much as depressed people, right? It's most definitely not a matter of "hey, it's his/her decision! let's respect it!".

absolutely, see post above. Don't get confused as to what im saying