Devolution
Member
You're being obtuse. The people saying these statements are levying judgments.
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Suicide is Selfish
- Thread starter Devolution
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You're being obtuse. The people saying these statements are levying judgments.
shanshan310
Member
I'm not. Yes, some people are. But not everyone. I don't see how its judgmental in some cases.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Because generally speaking there are ways to treat most mental illness to at the very least mitigate its effects
It's judgmental, but it's often reasonable for a person going through emotional loss to feel that way. Imagining someone you love being taken away is not going to elicit the best reactions out of people. They are human. They, just as the victim, have emotions and feelings. They aren't looking into the lives of a stranger or dealing with a far-removed philosophical question. Their pain is real to them and is causing dissonance.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I like to think of suicide as an issue that the living can never be un-biased about.
I always think that suicide is just a way of passing your problems onto someone else (for the most part, although I support the principal of "assisted suicide" for people with painful terminal illnesses)
However, mental illness is a fucker and comes in many different forms. It makes logical thought almost impossible a lot of the time, sometimes it even makes you believe what you are doing is logical.
However, mental illness is a fucker and comes in many different forms. It makes logical thought almost impossible a lot of the time, sometimes it even makes you believe what you are doing is logical.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
...which is a good argument against just handing out treatment and not monitoring the people undergoing it, but not, I feel, against the very idea of treatment itself.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Unless you've experienced an existential crisis I would like to add
I understand what it's like to view existence as fundamentally pointless, but have chosen not do more because of instincts and social needs rather than deep philosophizing.
Life isn't intrinsically meaningful, or meaningless for that matter - it just is.
They maybe, but I feel empathy for people levying these judgements just as I feel empathy for the person going through the depression that led to the suicide.
Grief is also something that impacts peoples judgement. I don't blame people for being judgmental when someone they love dies. I know they just miss someone they cared about dearly. I don't feel being right is more important than the health and happiness of the people suffering from the cognitive dissonance that comes when people you love die in tragic ways.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Unless you've experienced an existential crisis I would like to add
I understand what it's like to view existence as fundamentally pointless, but have chosen not do more because of instincts and social needs rather than deep philosophizing.
Life isn't intrinsically meaningful, or meaningless for that matter - it just is.
I see your point. I suppose not all "living" people cannot empathize with the willingness to let life go. Not just the existential crisis - the samurai ethic of Bushido comes to mind as a formal philosophy which was okay with it.
But the masses of living people are, in the main, going to be kind of a dick about the concept of people who don't want to be alive.
brianjones
Member
or if they even work
personally they just make me really numb
I haven't cried until I stopped taking them
Trent Strong
Banned
No. Especially if they are young kids. Not to mention that some people can recover from depression. Those kids might not have a depressed parent forever.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Well I think the operable word in "terminal illness" is "terminal", as in "treatment is not just unlikely to be effective, there is a 100% chance of death"
I wonder how many of you have experienced the feeling of having read what would've been the last words of someone dear to you, only having to directly stare into their eyes after the failed attempt so you see how little they cared or even acknowledged how it has affected you and those surrounding him or her. suicide itself is inherently selfish though it doesn't necessarily make it wrong.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Oh sure, and it might even be a belief that's been selected for to a degree through natural selection.
Generally speaking, you're not going to spread your little meme-genes if you think life is pointless. Or maybe we're seeing an increase in suicidal individuals in the west because we've for so long guilted the suicidal meme-gene carriers into living long enough to procreate - giving rise to an unprecedented number of currently living meme-gene carriers of the suicidal willingness.
Necromanti
Member
As someone with two depressed/mentally ill parents, I will have to respectfully disagree. That is to say, there is no general rule when it comes to these things, but that there will be some damage is an inevitability.
dragonelite
Member
Euthanasia i have no problems with it. Would probably do it my self if i was in such a physical pain that is not fixable.
Suicide isn't something that would pass my mind no matter how much life sucks, i will always find a reason to life on. Because it never really enters my mind i dont think i can say something about it. Just if someone wants to commit suicide please don't do it somewhere public you can scar others for life with jumping from a building.
Suicide isn't something that would pass my mind no matter how much life sucks, i will always find a reason to life on. Because it never really enters my mind i dont think i can say something about it. Just if someone wants to commit suicide please don't do it somewhere public you can scar others for life with jumping from a building.
I'm just curious for conversations sake, have you ever had someone close to you commit suicide? In 2001, my best friend killed himself. He wore a mask so convincing that nobody knew he was even sad let alone depressed enough to end it.
Having gone through 12 years of grief, I can see how people can play both sides of the argument. On one hand, his depression was so severe that he ended life to escape from the pain he was feeling. On the other, everyone that knew and loved him had their life instantly changed to varying degrees.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Memes: definitely. What society would ever say: "it's just fine if you off yourself if you have physical/emotional pain" ? It's an untenable thing for people to say to each other. Even if, in some objective sense, it may be perfectly true.
I don't even think we need to get evolutionary/genetic about it (though that may possibly exist). It's something that people just can't say to each other, because they don't want people dropping out of "the game" on them.
this person described their state as being no different before and after their attempt as well as profusely apologizing to this day for what we were put through.
BadAss2961
Member
Yep. It might not be the best thing to say to a suicidal person, but it's a real thing to say. No doubt in my mind that it's a selfish act in most cases for exactly this reason... It's not just about you, you'll bring others right down with you.
I can feel bad for those that go through with it, real bad. But I won't enable the act of suicide and justify people throwing their lives away. Fuck that.
Irrational or not, doesn't stop it from being selfish to some degree. If the person doesn't even write a suicide letter, add cowardice to the list too. At least give a fucking reason for throwing your family in such disarray.
Edit: I'm talking about the actual act of suicide, calling someone depressed selfish obviously doesn't help in most cases.
Edit: I'm talking about the actual act of suicide, calling someone depressed selfish obviously doesn't help in most cases.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Not just that, I think it might also play into the general belief-structure regarding life being meaningful that people maintain (very strongly by the look of it) because they do not want to life to be meaningless.
If you accept that others can die for any reason, or even a semi-legit one, then you might start questioning for what reason you are staying alive.
They don't just want people to not drop out of the game on them, but also maintain the potential facade of the game being worth playing.
Spring-Loaded
Member
Just reading the thread title pissed me off. Put that shit in quotes next time, ugh.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Very true. Good point.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
#forumphilosophy is legit
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
It's a classic bait and switch, hahaha.
Living?
Can't be that hard if a couple of billion people do it every day.
Yeah sorry, should have put some context round my post.
Thinking if you've reached the stage in your life where Suicide is the most viable option, I'd imagine living, especially for someone else, would be hugely courageous.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
You're not enabling anything by having empathy and a real understanding of humans and their brains. "Real talk" is a lame excuse to say shitty things that bring others down for no good reason.
Killing yourself is the complete opposite of any instinct or natural desire we have. Being able to hurt yourself and throw yourself willingly into an unknown oblivion is (to me) the hardest thing imaginable.
I'm not saying it's good, I'm saying it's brave. It's the kind of bravery I wish I'll never have, and it shows the level of despair that some people can feel.
Spring-Loaded
Member
brianjones
Member
merely existing is really easy
Kitsunebaby
Member
Personally, as someone who has attempted suicide a few times, I believe it is selfish. But then again so is everything else I've ever done or will ever do. Even the nice things I might do are motivated by self-interest.
That time I gave to charity? A selfish desire to feel good about myself.
That time I comforted a sobbing friend? A selfish desire to ease my own empathetic suffering.
Those times I've done favors for classmates or coworkers? A selfish desire to make myself more likable and curry favor.
That time I rescued my dog from a stray? A selfish desire not to lose a loved one.
Really, when every action I take is motivated by a desire to increase my happiness or decrease my pain, "selfish" becomes an utterly meaningless word, and attempting to levy it as an insult is downright hypocritical.
That time I gave to charity? A selfish desire to feel good about myself.
That time I comforted a sobbing friend? A selfish desire to ease my own empathetic suffering.
Those times I've done favors for classmates or coworkers? A selfish desire to make myself more likable and curry favor.
That time I rescued my dog from a stray? A selfish desire not to lose a loved one.
Really, when every action I take is motivated by a desire to increase my happiness or decrease my pain, "selfish" becomes an utterly meaningless word, and attempting to levy it as an insult is downright hypocritical.
In that "mental state*"? I don't think so.
*hate that phrase, but can't think of anything more suitable
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I see your point. Isn't everything ultimately selfish when we do it from a position of self?
matt360
Member
Yes.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Because we don't like to consider everything we do to be an act of selfishness, we've oh so cleverly categorized different acts into different categories of selfishness. Some things, that anyone if they put some thought into it would consider selfish, are accepted as normal behavior - and thus not called out specifically as selfish, so that we can use the term to judge or insult those committing selfish acts that "we" don't approve of
Yes everything begins from the self. But the term "selfish" still has its uses because if I strive to do good to others and my enviroment, I am not as selfish as someone who only aspires to do good to themselves at the cost of the good of others. Even though each of our motives begins from ourselves, the end results vary.
Then there are people who strive towards forgetting their own ego. It's debatable if such a thing can be achieved, but it just goes to show there is a wide spectrum of how we apply our "self" to life.
It's harmful to others.
Dr_Boris_Goltz
Banned
As somebody who has suicidal thoughts on occasion, I do feel there is a bit of a selfish attitude in the thinking. I know personally one of the things that keeps me from pursuing it is the knowledge that certain people will feel as though they're responsible.
I don't want to ruin their lives.
I don't want to ruin their lives.
Trent Strong
Banned
Because we don't like to consider everything we do to be an act of selfishness, we've oh so cleverly categorized different acts into different categories of selfishness. Some things, that anyone if they put some thought into it would consider selfish, are accepted as normal behavior - and thus not called out specifically as selfish, so that we can use the term to judge or insult those committing selfish acts that "we" don't approve of
Oh, come on. We need to be able to distinguish between, say stealing an old woman's purse to buy an xbox and giving to charity so we feel good about ourselves. "Selfish" is a useful word.
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