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[Femmeworth]

Because we don't like to consider everything we do to be an act of selfishness, we've oh so cleverly categorized different acts into different categories of selfishness. Some things, that anyone if they put some thought into it would consider selfish, are accepted as normal behavior - and thus not called out specifically as selfish, so that we can use the term to judge or insult those committing selfish acts that "we" don't approve of

Eh, there are definitely degrees of selfishness. Any action can be placed on more than one axis.

 

[Kitsunebaby]

Yes everything begins from the self. But the term "selfish" still has its uses because if I strive to do good to others and my enviroment, I am not as selfish as someone who only aspires to do good to themselves at the cost of the good of others. Even though each of our motives begins from ourselves, the end results vary.

Then there are people who strive towards forgetting their own ego. It's debatable if such a thing can be achieved, but it just goes to show there is a wide spectrum of how we apply our "self" to life.

I don't think you actually got my point. The fact that you may be more empathetic than others doesn't make you any less selfish. It might make you a better person in your mind, but in my mind "better people" don't objectively exist. Just people who are more pleasant to be around.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Oh, come on. We need to be able to distinguish between, say stealing an old woman's purse to buy an xbox and giving to charity so we feel good about ourselves. "Selfish" is a useful word.

Sure, if you're a dirty utilitarian.
(I'm not entirely serious)

 

[Eight Diagram Bat Fighter]

Do I owe my existence to anyone other than myself?

The wife you vowed your life to when you got married? And in essence, your children?

 

[Trent Strong]

I don't think you actually got my point. The fact that you may be more empathetic than others doesn't make you any less selfish. It might make you a better person in your mind, but in my mind "better people" don't objectively exist. Just people who are more pleasant to be around.

So Albert Schweitzer isn't objectively better than Hitler?

 

[SquiddyCracker]

So Albert Schweitzer isn't objectively better than Hitler?

He's certainly a lot more pleasant to be around.
Calling him objectively better than Hitler is a useful sentiment, definitely, but not necessarily a true one.

 

[zoukka]

I don't think you actually got my point. The fact that you may be more empathetic than others doesn't make you any less selfish. It might make you a better person in your mind, but in my mind "better people" don't objectively exist. Just people who are more pleasant to be around.

No I got your point. Whatever good I do to others I do because I feel it makes the world a better place, thus making my life better as well. A selfish motive.

But these are words and terms remember. We are not getting anywhere by simply saying that everything is equally selfish even though it might be true by literal logic. That doesn't create any meaningful discussion about the matter.

 

[Trent Strong]

He's certainly a lot more pleasant to be around.
Calling him objectively better than Hitler is a useful sentiment, definitely, but not necessarily a true one.

I guess we're getting into ethical subjectivism here.

 

[Kitsunebaby]

So Albert Schweitzer isn't objectively better than Hitler?

No. Both of them were motivated only by their own desire for happiness/pleasure. One of them may have been far more sadistic and apathetic than the other when pursuing his ambitions, but he was not an evil or "bad" person. Those are romantic notions based on outdated, simplistic understanding of human behavior.

No I got your point. Whatever good I do to others I do because I feel it makes the world a better place, thus making my life better as well. A selfish motive.

But these are words and terms remember. We are not getting anywhere by simply saying that everything is equally selfish even though it might be true by literal logic. That doesn't create any meaningful discussion about the matter.

What meaningful discussion is created by people hypocritically judging others for their "selfishness"? All that does is makes those with suicidal impulses/histories feel attacked while those without get to feel "strong" since they never had to deal with truly debilitating depression.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

I guess we're getting into ethical subjectivism here.

My view, TL;DR: The notion of objectivism is just a tool of propagating a particular brand of subjectivism. I don't mind it that much when it's the brand of subjectivism I ascribe to, but I see it for what it is even if that's potentially damaging it as a tool to propagate my beliefs.

I think a philosophy OT would be appropriate more than ever for a discussion like this.

 

[Eight Diagram Bat Fighter]

Also if you have a family:

I quit life so I'm dropping all this on you unplanned and without your approval
you're in charge of paying off all my bills now
you're in charge of raising the kids and doing every responsibility we shared
sorry for the funeral you'll have to pay for that is on average of $10,000 bucks here you go
sorry for all the guilt you may feel not knowing if it was because of you and all the sadness that comes with this

I can see how that can be a selfish move on behalf of everyone who has to clean up after your mess.

 

[strata8]

As somebody who has suicidal thoughts on occasion, I do feel there is a bit of a selfish attitude in the thinking. I know personally one of the things that keeps me from pursuing it is the knowledge that certain people will feel as though they're responsible.

I don't want to ruin their lives.

Same. If there was a button in front of me that erased my existence, I might've pushed it. You could almost say I wasn't really suicidal... just tired of life.

 

[zoukka]

No. Both of them were motivated only by their own desire for happiness/pleasure. One of them may have been far more sadistic and apathetic than the other when pursuing his ambitions, but he was not an evil or "bad" person. Those are romantic notions based on outdated, simplistic understanding of human behavior.

But ones actions if harmful will end up shaping onself as a "harmful" person. To others, to self. There is no divine label on hitler that made him "harmful", just a chain of events. But anyone has every right in the world to call him extremely harmful/bad/evil based on his actions.

 

[Goodlife]

As somebody who has suicidal thoughts on occasion, I do feel there is a bit of a selfish attitude in the thinking. I know personally one of the things that keeps me from pursuing it is the knowledge that certain people will feel as though they're responsible.

I don't want to ruin their lives.

I'd imagine everyone has had a suicidal thought at one time or another.

But the thing is, the deeper down the rabbit warren you go, the more you convince yourself that you're not ruining their life, infact you are doing this to help them. (I'm guessing)

 

[Jburton]

It is only selfish in so much as it is an act based upon the needs of oneself.

The way that word is used by some when talking about suicide, in a negative connotation ........ is frankly self righteous, posturing bullshit.


I will bet my bottom dollar that a majority of those types that make those comments have never suffered mental illness of the severity and longevity to the point that there seems to be only one way forward.

I have seen a lot of suicide, in so much as that which is left behind ..... broken hearted family members, for whom my heart aches, asshole opinions are not just a dig at the recently deceased but a cause of further hurt upon the suffering family.


I have dealt with severe depression, anxiety and paranoia for many years ..... for over half my life and in the past I have reached scary lows where altered states of mind take over, no logic nor reason inhabit those places ........ only an overwhelming despair and loneliness, an image in my mind saved me and I went home from the secluded place I had chosen to die and fell to pieces, time in a mental ward (suicide watch is one of the worst things I have ever experienced but I know I needed it) and years of work (and repeated incidents) have only now at the age of 33 allowed me to get enough of a grip to feel in control of my life and my mind.

My experiences allow my to empathise with the those that feel the need to take their own lives or try to, I hope for those that come out with such crass comments that they do not need to walk a mile in a mans shoes to know where he comes from ....... I would not wish that on anyone.

 

[BocoDragon]

Because we don't like to consider everything we do to be an act of selfishness, we've oh so cleverly categorized different acts into different categories of selfishness. Some things, that anyone if they put some thought into it would consider selfish, are accepted as normal behavior - and thus not called out specifically as selfish, so that we can use the term to judge or insult those committing selfish acts that "we" don't approve of

Oh, come on. We need to be able to distinguish between, say stealing an old woman's purse to buy an xbox and giving to charity so we feel good about ourselves. "Selfish" is a useful word.

Eh, there are definitely degrees of selfishness. Any action can be placed on more than one axis.

I see this as a trivial semantic difference.

Ultimately I think all things are selfish from a certain meaning of the word.

But from a conventional/societal perspective, some actions are meant to benefit one's self only, and others are intended to benefit others. Even if it's all "for the self's gratification", we can see the difference here.

 

[KingFire]

Many people have never gone through enough pain to even begin to think about committing suicide. These people, much like the deaf who can't understand the beauty of a song no matter how much time you spend explaining, will never understand the urge to commit suicide.

 

[beje]

Ugh, I hate it when people say it's selfish, as they clearly haven't had to deal EVER with someone with a mental illness (like depression). It's been exactly two months ago since my roomate's failed attempt, and his main reason was that he was completely broke and didn't want to become a burden for anybody, not even his own parents. Not exactly selfish...

In fact he tried the best he could to hide it from everyone during his 3 week stay at the hospital's psychiatric ward (but me, obviously, as I was the one who found him unconscious and called the emergency service) including his parents and friends because he didn't want other people commiseration or making them troubled and was stubborn on fixing the situation all by itself. He's much better now, and medication is finally making effect because he's slowly back to his former self. He's also learning now (in his forties!) to ask for help.

 

[MoGamesXNA]

Holy crap. I actually agree with something Devolution has posted.

Dilemma: Does that mean that I'm wrong and that suicide is actually selfish?

 

[Gustav]

I'm not tired of hearing it. People can say what they want.

 

[Kitsunebaby]

But ones actions if harmful will end up shaping onself as a "harmful" person. To others, to self. There is no divine label on hitler that made him "harmful", just a chain of events. But anyone has every right in the world to call him extremely harmful/bad/evil based on his actions.

But not everyone did. He was a hero to many, which is just further proof that moral judgments are completely subjective.

 

[Trent Strong]

No. Both of them were motivated only by their own desire for happiness/pleasure. One of them may have been far more sadistic and apathetic than the other when pursuing his ambitions, but he was not an evil or "bad" person. Those are romantic notions based on outdated, simplistic understanding of human behavior.

A person can be an expert in neuroscience and psychology and have an incredibly sophisticated understanding of human behavior, and still describe genocidal maniacs as "bad". I don't think there's any contradiction there.

I see this as a trivial semantic difference.

Ultimately I think all things are selfish from a certain meaning of the word.

But from a conventional/societal perspective, some actions are meant to benefit one's self only, and others are intended to benefit others. Even if it's all "for the self's gratification", we can see the difference here.

That certain meaning doesn't seem to be very useful in the real world though.

 

[BocoDragon]

That certain meaning doesn't seem to be very useful in the real world though.

I agree. It's philosophy nerd talk.

 

[Femmeworth]

My view, TL;DR: The notion of objectivism is just a tool of propagating a particular brand of subjectivism. I don't mind it that much when it's the brand of subjectivism I ascribe to, but I see it for what it is even if that's potentially damaging it as a tool to propagate my beliefs.

I think a philosophy OT would be appropriate more than ever for a discussion like this.

What.

But not everyone did. He was a hero to many, which is just further proof that moral judgments are completely subjective.

No, all that proves is there are different perspectives.

 

[Buzzman]

Also if you have a family:

I can see how that can be a selfish move on behalf of everyone who has to clean up after your mess.

What if you don't have a family? What if you literally couldn't give less of a shit about fucking bills when every day feels like torture? What if you feel so bad that you can't actually raise children or do anything at all? You're just a burden for everyone else who has to take care of you. You feel like you're a parasite.

 

[Kitsunebaby]

A person can be an expert in neuroscience and psychology and have an incredibly sophisticated understanding of human behavior, and still describe genocidal maniacs as "bad". I don't think there's any contradiction there.

Certainly, but they must realize that it's not an objective descriptor.

That certain meaning doesn't seem to be very useful in the real world though.

Eh, what can I say, I love philosophy. Personally, I think that if everyone realized that all their actions were motivated by self-pleasure there would be a few less self-righteous twats in the world (which would make it more pleasurable to me

And since it's past 5am here, I'm off to bed.

 

[Jburton]

How did this thread turn into philosophical wankery?

 

[Devolution]

How did this thread turn into philosophical wankery?

Hah.

Seriously.

Objective morality circle jerk.

 

[Tomat]

How did this thread turn into philosophical wankery?

Welcome to every single GAF debate ever.

 

[daycru]

You get one life, it's yours to do whatever with. Nothing selfish about suicide.

 

[Jburton]

Hah.

Seriously.

Objective morality circle jerk.

Philosophy majors needing to reassure themselves it was not a waste of time

 

[Paertan]

You get one life, it's yours to do whatever with. Nothing selfish about suicide.

"it's yours to do whatever with" is kind of the definition of selfish. Dong something just for your own sake not caring about anyone else.

I consider suicide in most cases to be the single most selfish act a human can do.

 

[fertygo]

I won't call it selfish, but I won't sympathize to it either.

Can we talking like this "Poor dude, at least he RIP now"

Oh come on, that sound a lot worse..

 

[ugly]

Suicide is definitely selfish, it is a selfish act to it's core. Completely, absolutely self-serving. However, it is a negative connotations applied to the word 'selfish' which truly ought to be contested. If a person wants to commit a selfish act I don't think that's a bad thing.

Though in any case, ruling away something like suicide as just 'selfish' is a stupid thing to do and is ignorant of the extent of what something like killing yourself means. The word doesn't begin to encompass or even touch the magnitude of the beforehand. People don't just die. Things happen to them that make them die, the same as in any case. Death, what you had for breakfast, all is informed by prior events.

Suicide is selfish. But that's unimportant.

 

[Laughing Banana]

How did this thread turn into philosophical wankery?

Because people think there are many/different ways to see something, I guess.

 

[Sojgat]

It all depends on the situation. Personal suffering shouldn't be easily dismissed, life is very hard for some people. Perpetual anguish offers no other way out sometimes, and while that sucks, it's also a fact of life. People who think suicide is invariably selfish, should try living in pain every moment of their lives before they make such judgements.

However, I have nothing but contempt for those who turn their suicide into a public spectacle and endanger others. I have been in a situation like this. I, and the people standing near me, were put in danger by this person's attempt to share his pain. His suicide was selfish.

 

[ugly]

Ah, I didn't read the thread. Looks like people already said what I said. Though I still have not read the thread

or fed the bread to the dead instead

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Philosophy majors needing to reassure themselves it was not a waste of time

If they can't argue on the internet, what was all that time and money spent for?

 

[leadbelly]

And how is it selfish? Do I owe my existence to anyone other than myself?

I will mention it again. My Grandmother left my 8 year old mother and her younger brothers orphan.

 

[Karsticles]

Philosophy majors needing to reassure themselves it was not a waste of time

No respectable philosophy major would embrace objective morality. Leave that stuff for the plebs and Kant.

 

[Tesseract]

i think it's an act of cowardice in most circumstances, only for those tormented few who suicide to escape unspeakable physical pain.

this the opinion of someone who lives with maddening everyday pain. emotional woes by comparison are petty, almost babyish, the kind of thing you treat with soft hands, words and pills. of course i won't pretend to know anyone's suffering, there's no scale for measuring these things. physical pain and depression have deep biological interconnections.

that said i don't think it's selfish and keep myself well empathized to every situation, mind and perspective. we're all connected to each other, i don't want any of y'all to suffer.

 

[way more]

There was something posted on Reddit a few months ago about this.



From the outside perspective, suicide is a selfish act. I'm not going to deny that, because it's fundamentally true. At the same time though I don't think you can call someone who commits suicide as being selfish, not when you haven't been in the situation they have.

If it cheers the author up I'm sure the person who committed suicide thought about all the people that were going to have to clean up yet another one of her colossal fuck-ups and it made her even more depressed.

 

[EviLore]

emotional woes by comparison are petty, almost babyish, the kind of thing you treat with soft hands, words and pills.

of course i won't pretend to know anyone's suffering

Clearly

 

[way more]

I won't call it selfish, but I won't sympathize to it either.

Can we talking like this "Poor dude, at least he RIP now"

Oh come on, that sound a lot worse..

Yeah, so what if they were stricken with a terrible disease which stripped every last shred of their humanity from them and in the end killed them. Whoops, I was talking about cancer there.

 

[TrutaS]

It is a false problem in my opinion. If someone actually wants to die, it won't matter what people think about it, the need to die is just evident and not sociable.

If the suicide attempt is appellative by nature, that judgment might be felt, but then it is legitimate that people try to talk sense to their fellows with any argument they can find. The fact is suicide is very hurtful to those around the person who dies, and they too have to deal with it any way they can (and deserve to do so).

 

[Metal B]

No matter if suicide is really selfish or not. We as a society should never make it acceptable. Connecting suicide with horrible accusations, makes it look dreadful through many levels of a culture. What in return makes people thing more then twice to actual go though with it. Here is also the point, where religion should get some credits. It creates mental rules and supernatural punishments, which try to stop people to do destructive acts, where a governmental, guards or other people couldn't not reach them. Yes, some of those religious rules are now outdated and products of there time, but many like suicide are still a important part of many human societies.

In my opinion suicide is selfish. But there should be a highly oversaw possibility for people with physical pain to get a mercy death. We put animals to sleep, so that they don't have to slowly die painfully. But human have to go though pain or a mindless state to finally find salvation. It really makes getting old look so much more horrible, then actually dying itself ...

 

[jimi_dini]

Also if you have a family:

I quit life so I'm dropping all this on you unplanned and without your approval
you're in charge of paying off all my bills now
you're in charge of raising the kids and doing every responsibility we shared
sorry for the funeral you'll have to pay for that is on average of $10,000 bucks here you go
sorry for all the guilt you may feel not knowing if it was because of you and all the sadness that comes with this

I can see how that can be a selfish move on behalf of everyone who has to clean up after your mess.

What if you get MS and into a wheelchair and gets lots and lots of prednisolone and it doesn't work and additionally your wife blames you for being a burden on the whole family for years?

Spoiler

my father had to experience all of this, I can't really blame him

 

[Tesseract]

Clearly

the two thoughts are probably more contradictory than compatible. is suicide courageous? i'm not trying to be intentionally obtuse or antagonistic.

 

[PedroPanache]

A few years ago, a good family friend, someone who I got to know quite well towards the end, committed suicide and it was just awful, because there was just this sad inevitability about it. I could see her light, her spark slowly whittle away as she had to endure crippling back pain, a doctor that seemed apathetic about her whole situation, almost to the point that he would gladly struck her off if he could and a system that had failed her time and time again.

Suicide isn't selfish, it's the last desperate act of a broken mind that sees the world completely differently to a healthy person; a mindset that believes we'd be better off without them. She obviously didn't want to endure the pain anymore, and she felt like she was such a burden to everyone, it always me sad to think how apologetic she was when she was down; in those last six months she was always apologising, and it felt like we couldn't quite communicate that it was ok, it didn't matter. I sometimes think of those last few moments before she killed herself, and how alone she must have felt, it breaks my heart, but, at the same time, I'm glad that she doesn't have to endure all that pain anymore.

Of course, that's my experience. When people throw that remark around, I take it as a sign that they've had the good fortune not to go through such an experience.

 

[way more]

the two thoughts are probably more contradictory than compatible. is suicide courageous? i'm not trying to be intentionally obtuse or antagonistic.

Well, you don't know where you are going, unless you are religious and they tell you that you're going to hell. You are going to die. If that isn't some that scares you in some way then I guess suicide is real easy.

Of course, that's my experience. When people throw that remark around, I take it as a sign that they've had the good fortune not to go through such an experience.

It's like the remark, "why are they so poor, they should just work harder." It lets you know the speaker has no understanding of what he is saying and simply wishes to apply a judgement.