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[Kevtones]

Suicide can be cowardly. That doesn't mean it is.

The act of killing oneself can be a flourish of courage. That doesn't mean it is.



Suicide is ego-driven. It's an absolute means to an end for the self. You're making/finding a choice, regardless of those around you. Depression is a valid reason but it's often used as an excuse. That's not to discount the depressed mind, which is unpredictable and usually incapable of finding logic.

Those wanting to keep you alive in pain are also selfish. They would rather you find your peace alive and in their lives as opposed to mourning you. To me, this is acceptably selfish.

Suicide can also be acceptably selfish.

Don't kill yourself.

 

[ant1532]

You diagnosed what is wrong with people and decided they'll get over it in time.

dude just stop having heart attacks

 

[triplestation]

I think the best treatment for suicidal thoughts is dogs

 

[ant1532]

I think the best treatment for suicidal thoughts is dogs

definitely not cats.

 

[Laughing Banana]

I think the best treatment for suicidal thoughts is dogs

Cats.

But it's true, pets can be a surprisingly effective way to help depression.

 

[Axiom]

For me, the idea that it'd be hurting others in a profound way is what has always kept me from following through.

It IS a selfish thing a lot of the time when taken at face value. You can't handle something, so you decide to inflict incredible pain on those in your life.
And not just those in your life, if you throw yourself in front of a train or jump off a building you are actively choosing to traumatise others or at the very least incredibly inconvenience them.

The time I was closest to actually following through, I had such a poor opinion of myself that the idea that I was being this asshole to other people just didn't register anymore - I couldn't take it. I didn't care if I was an asshole, I was okay with my legacy being that I hurt all these people, I just couldn't cope.

There still isn't a day I wake up that I'm actually happy I woke up at all, but as long as I can't let myself be this jerk, then I guess I have to muddle through.

 

[FStop7]

It's not selfish nor is it always irrational.

People suffering from terminal illness with no option for treatment are making a rational choice if they decide to end their lives. They are either experiencing great pain and suffering or seeking to avoid it after being diagnosed.

If I were diagnosed with Alzheimer's today I'd think very hard about ending my life rather than go through that.

 

[The Technomancer]

Its not necessarily selfish. But neither can I "respect the wishes" of those who feel suicidal, with the possible exception of people who are terminally ill or facing mental debilitation.

 

[BocoDragon]

Agree completely Dev.

 

[RM8]

Cats.

But it's true, pets can be a surprisingly effective way to help depression.

DOGS.

Lol, I just saw a documentary about how dogs make us release oxytocin in a similar way our newborn kids do. And it's mutual, dogs get the same oxytocin spike when we are affectionate with them. Dogs <3

 

[Laughing Banana]

For me, the idea that it'd be hurting others in a profound way is what has always kept me from following through.

It IS a selfish thing a lot of the time when taken at face value. You can't handle something, so you decide to inflict incredible pain on those in your life.
And not just those in your life, if you throw yourself in front of a train or jump off a building you are actively choosing to traumatise others or at the very least incredibly inconveniance them.

The time I was closest to actually following through, I had such a poor opinion of myself that the idea that I was being this asshole to other people just didn't register anymore - I couldn't take it. I didn't care if I was an asshole, I was okay with my legacy being that I hurt all these people, I just couldn't cope.

There still isn't a day I wake up that I'm actually happy I woke up at all, but as long as I can't let myself be this jerk, then I guess I have to muddle through.

Man, an opinion from someone from the other side of the world in the Internet to you is probably meaningless but...

Good luck man, and don't ever give up.

DOGS.

Lol, I just saw a documentary about how dogs make us release oxytocin in a similar way our newborn kids do. And it's mutual, dogs get the same oxytocin spike when we are affectionate with them. Dogs <3

CATS.

 

[Nothing1016]

The only reason more people don't commit suicide is because the end is unknown. If i knew what would happen after I died, dying would be less frightful.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

It's not selfish nor is it always irrational.

People suffering from terminal illness with no option for treatment are making a rational choice if they decide to end their lives. They are either experiencing great pain and suffering or seeking to avoid it after being diagnosed.

I think the discussion might be less muddled-up if we focus on real-case scenarious rather than trying to generalize suicide as generally good/bad.

Just top off my head, you got the following situations:

Suicide when you're suffering from a terminal illness with no option for treatment?
Suicide when you're suffering from a chronic illness with no option for treatment?
Suicide when you're suffering from an illness with a long/costly (on your loved ones) option for a treatment?
Suicide when you're suffering from a mental condition for which there is no successful treatment?
Suicide when you're suffering from a long-held depression?
Suicide when you're a burden on your loved ones, and your death would bring financial benefits to your loved ones?
Suicide when you're both mentally/physically healthy and simply wishes to die?

Y/N?

 

[Quackula]

It's pretty obvious, people say those things because they don't want you to kill yourself.

As someone pointed out, nobody attempting suicide actually wants to die, they're just desperate and don't see any other way out. Honestly, I think suicide absolutely should carry a negative stigma with it. People should always be encouraged to seek out other solutions to their problems.

Calling them selfish may not be the best way of going about it, but most people are pretty knee jerk when it comes to situations like that. If a close friend or family member was going to commit suicide, you bet I'd be pretty upset, and I'd probably say and do things without thinking about it.

Is it fair to attack people reacting emotionally to suicide attempts?

Mental illness is something society doesn't really "get." It's just hard to empathize with. Everyone knows what physical pain feels like, but most people can't even imagine what it's like for your brain to not work properly.

I probably seem all over the place, but yeah.

 

[thebaroness]

http://youtu.be/zN7q8PInMYI

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

Why are you acting like I'm stipulating suicide is the only answer? I'm merely talking about the response to the act itself.

Because the response doesn't happen in a vacuum.

It makes people angry because the sheer amount of ignorance is staggering. How can an act of taking a life be selfish unless you're stipulating that one has a) an obligation to live and b) has to live for everyone but themselves and c) has to somehow ignore their depression or mental torture in order to please everyone else in their life.

If there is no ignorance, does it make you upset? If the suicide victim willfully kept others ignorant, are you okay with the response of 'coward' or 'selfish'?

No one has an obligation to live but what do you expect when people are loving? Depression is such a little bitch. It causes you to want to hide every emotion. I just wanted to wake up and feel better. I say I was depressed for 2 years but it was probably more (5 years?). I didn't realize it until my boss mentioned it on my evaluations. If I took my life, it would have been phenomenally selfish and cowardly.

I would be curious about any data on suicides and the types of conditions associated with it. In the US, it's hard because of the many deaths incorrectly labeled and the poor mental health system. How many suicides are due to long term illness or die to a short term illness.

 

[El Daniel]

 

[Salsa]

so deep

 

[UrbanRats]

I feel like asking someone to keep on living a nightmarish life, just so you don't feel sad is also a selfish stance.

 

[Femmeworth]

Another phrase that bugs me is, "Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem."

 

[RM8]

I feel like asking someone to keep on living a nightmarish life, just so you don't feel sad is also a selfish stance.

The "nightmarish life" most likely has a much nicer, happier solution for the victim than death, though.

 

[Devolution]

I know you (probably?) does not intend to make it sound like if, say, a person you know/care about comes to you and say, "Devolution, I am seriously depressed, and I want to kill myself", you will only reply with "Okay, it's your right to do it, I am not gonna try to stop you." but man, it does sound like it.

I've actually talked to people in real shit situations and I've never once said "yeah end your life, it's your choice." I dove deep with them into why they were so entrenched in suicidal thoughts and lent an ear. They didn't go through with it. Sometimes all people need is to talk it out with someone but I wouldn't dare label their actions after the fact as "selfish", as some judgmental dismissal of how much of a tortured soul they might have been. It's not my place. So to me, to label it as such, someone might as well pat themselves on the fucking back for being "alive" today.

 

[Lissar]

It's not selfish nor is it always irrational.

People suffering from terminal illness with no option for treatment are making a rational choice if they decide to end their lives. They are either experiencing great pain and suffering or seeking to avoid it after being diagnosed.

If I were diagnosed with Alzheimer's today I'd think very hard about ending my life rather than go through that.

I don't believe I've ever seen people say those who choose to end their lives over a terminal illness are selfish (though I suppose it must happen.) In this particular discussion I don't think that is what people are talking about. Suicide because of depression and doctor assisted suicide are two very different things, despite being under the same heading.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Another phrase that bugs me is, "Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem."

Yeah, the problem being the assumption that they're all temporary problems.

 

[Haly]

Don't trust the noose cat.

 

[zoukka]

so deep

People seem to have an urge to say that about any simple visual symbolism.

 

[KevinCow]

What if part of the reason is because you're afraid you might one day lose control and hurt someone. Is that selfish? Or is it selfless because you're willing to sacrifice yourself for the safety of others?

 

[Salsa]

People seem to have an urge to say that about any simple visual symbolism.

it's stupid, and a stupid way of looking at things. My whole thing about thinking people ending their lives are withing their right to do so has nothing to do with it "being better on the other side".

 

[Clydefrog]

i'm up all night to get lucky

 

[childplease]

Suicide takes incredible courage.

I can't even remotely see myself having enough courage to end my own life.

 

[Always-honest]

I think people say that because suicide affects the people that are left behind.

I can think of situations where people don't want to live anymore, and i can think of situations where people just needed to give it some time and effort.


What i do consider a crime in suicide, is not telling the ones left behiond WHY you did it.
That can be extra traumatic for them, especially for kids.

I also think that certain overly dramatic ways of committing suicide are criminal, like throwing yourself in front of a train, forever traumatising the driver and the people cleaning your shit up.


It's kinda selfish, but i can understand choosing for yourself at a certain point when life gets really unbearable. It's no fun living with these people either and it must be hard seeing them suffer, i think.

 

[OrlanisWorks]

I can either:

Die for me.
Die for you.
Live for me.
Live for you.

Honestly, they should be living for themselves. Isn't that what we are usually told to do? "Don't live your life for others, live your life for yourself."

A lot of it comes to circumstance. If someone commits suicide and they have a child to take care of, I believe that is selfish.

Meh. I don't really get this. I just want communication to be easier and better. People are pretty shallow most of the time. If you're lonely, that isn't exactly worth killing yourself over. That's just weakness, and it's terrible to say that. If you're dying and you don't want to waste medical expenses, or maybe if you're going to go through severe pain or loss of mental health, I understand that. If you're raising a kid and you can't handle it, that's as selfish as you can get. You bail on a child because you can't find it in yourself to be a dad? Selfish.

Change Total: probably <$0.02


Also: READ THIS: The Monkey Sphere

The Monkeysphere is the group of people who each of us, using our monkeyish brains, are able to conceptualize as people. If the monkey scientists are monkey right, it's physically impossible for this to be a number much larger than 150.

Most of us do not have room in our Monkeysphere for our friendly neighborhood sanitation worker. So, we don't think of him as a person. We think of him as The Thing That Makes The Trash Go Away.

And even if you happen to know and like your particular garbage man, at one point or another we all have limits to our sphere of monkey concern. It's the way our brains are built. We each have a certain circle of people who we think of as people, usually our own friends and family and neighbors, and then maybe some classmates or coworkers or church or suicide cult.

Those who exist outside that core group of a few dozen people are not people to us. They're sort of one-dimensional bit characters.

Read more: http://www.cracked.com/article_14990_what-monkeysphere.html#ixzz2T9dDkgJZ

Suicide might be selfish, but nearly all of us don't give a fuck anyone who commits suicide. We are born to be selfish, pretty much. Russell Brand seems to be a minor fluxuation (hanging and talking with homeless people), but 99% don't care. We got our lives, they have theirs. Oh, he committed suicide? "That's so sad," we might say, but how we really feel? "Sure, it's sad. Wait, I don't feel sad. I feel pretty normal. Huh." We are selfish, and that's a "blanket statement" as you will say. It's true though. We aren't infinitely selfish, but we are mostly nearly that.
edit: People can commit suicide selfishly and selflessly. Done.

 

[Balphon]

Of course it's selfish.

But people do selfish things all the time, and with much worse reasons.

 

[brianjones]

“A true suicide is a paced, disciplined certainty. People pontificate, "Suicide is selfishness." Career churchmen like Pater go a step further and call in a cowardly assault on the living. Oafs argue this specious line for varying reason: to evade fingers of blame, to impress one's audience with one's mental fiber, to vent anger, or just because one lacks the necessary suffering to sympathize. Cowardice is nothing to do with it - suicide takes considerable courage. Japanese have the right idea. No, what's selfish is to demand another to endure an intolerable existence, just to spare families, friends, and enemies a bit of soul-searching. The only selfishness lies in ruining strangers' days by forcing 'em to witness a grotesqueness.”

 

[UrbanRats]

Another phrase that bugs me is, "Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem."

Well, suicide is the only decision you cannot regret, if we want to play with logic.

The "nightmarish life" most likely has a much nicer, happier solution for the victim than death, though.

That is beyond the point.
If you want to help a suicidal person that's great, but if your support is limited at guilt tripping with "don't kill yourself, because i don't want to be sad", you're being selfish.

 

[Necromanti]

Labeling suicide as an act of selfishness only served as a guilt trip, not a deterrent. I knew that it would hurt people, but in some twisted way--deep down--I felt that they would be better off without me, and would ultimately be "happier" in time.

What would have been more helpful at the time would be proactive support from those with authority. Your friends can only do so much. If my parents hadn't denied my illness and refused to let me pursue either therapy or medication, I probably wouldn't have made attempts. Depression that has gone to the point of becoming suicidal is like living in an oppressive haze.

You wake up--always exhausted, miserable, and in mental anguish--trudge on and plan your death, and then cry to yourself to sleep to the next day. It was like finding oneself in a deep, dark pit sealed with a grating. As the rain came, you struggled against it to stay afloat and try to escape, but eventually, you are pressed against the grating. The water surrounds you and you claw feebly at the grating, desperate for air, hoping someone will answer your prayers. But death was the only mercy that followed.

All melodrama aside, I can't even begin to think back to when I was in my lowest point of my life. It's indescribable. Living was torture. You just wanted out; you just wanted solace, and peace. And at the time, those I trusted made me feel that they did not want me to die, but made a poor case for wanting me to live, as well. I was sick of being made a burden. Thankfully, I am someone lucky enough to have overcome that madness. Mental illness needs to be destigmatized and taken more seriously in society.

 

[The Technomancer]

I can either:

Die for me.
Die for you.
Live for me.
Live for you.

Honestly, they should be living for themselves. Isn't that what we are usually told to do? "Don't live your life for others, live your life for yourself."

I've always hated this sentiment taken to its logical extrapolation. Who lives only for themselves and isn't either an asshole or a miserable person? Living for others is an important part of being human.

I mean, I've known several people who battled suicide and depression and I understand that in some of those cases a large part of it was feeling that they couldn't live up to other's expectations, but I don't necessarily think "stop caring about what other people think" is a good solution.

 

[shanshan310]

I've actually talked to people in real shit situations and I've never once said "yeah end your life, it's your choice." I dove deep with them into why they were so entrenched in suicidal thoughts and lent an ear. They didn't go through with it. Sometimes all people need is to talk it out with someone but I wouldn't dare label their actions after the fact as "selfish", as some judgmental dismissal of how much of a tortured soul they might have been. It's not my place. So to me, to label it as such, someone might as well pat themselves on the fucking back for being "alive" today.

Have you ever dealt with suicide personally? Everyone deals with it differently. In no way is 'selfish' meant as a dismissal of the problems that person may have faced. Its not meant to diminish whatever they were going through, its a way of dealing with the sudden loss. For someone who seems to be sick of 'people being judgmental', you sure seem to be doing a lot of it yourself.

 

[Quackula]

Then there's people who want to die, and have loved ones who agree with them or even help. I can't call that selfish. A husband being there while his wife passes away with dignity before a brain tumor further ruins her life shouldn't be referred to in such crass terms.

I think generally speaking, when most people talk about suicide, they're considering terminal illness related stuff like that a big exception.

 

[Devolution]

Have you ever dealt with suicide personally? Everyone deals with it differently. In no way is 'selfish' meant as a dismissal of the problems that person may have faced. Its not meant to diminish whatever they were going through, its a way of dealing with the sudden loss. For someone who seems to be sick of 'people being judgmental', you sure seem to be doing a lot of it yourself.

I dealt with depression in middle school because I was incessantly bullied and had no friends. What kept me alive was my parents. Also please with the "you're being judgmental of other people being judgmental" shenanigans.

 

[Laughing Banana]

I've actually talked to people in real shit situations and I've never once said "yeah end your life, it's your choice." I dove deep with them into why they were so entrenched in suicidal thoughts and lent an ear. They didn't go through with it. Sometimes all people need is to talk it out with someone but I wouldn't dare label their actions after the fact as "selfish", as some judgmental dismissal of how much of a tortured soul they might have been. It's not my place. So to me, to label it as such, someone might as well pat themselves on the fucking back for being "alive" today.

Well, this kind of thing is complex though; I can definitely understand (not necessarily agreeing with however) how people might want to label those committing suicides as cowardly/selfish--especially if the ones committing it are those very close/very dear to them.

Maybe it's just a coping mechanism that people erect after being emotionally devastated by the loss of a loved one.

I guess, what i want to say is, I always look this sort of thing in a case per case basis. There are times where saying suicide is selfish/cowardly is totally inappropriate (such as cases of being terminally ill/in pain, etc etc), but there are also some cases where at least I can understand why people saying that--especially if the ones saying it are close to the one who offed him/herself.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Having argued with suicidal people, I think I've gotten a relatively decent insight into what it's like.

I used arguments such as "It's a decision that cannot be undone" and "Things might get better in the future, unless you end it now" but they are all uncertainties that might include more of what's making them suicidal, versus the certainty of death - ending all problems permanently. Because that's the crux, they've already experienced a certain amount of things that have pushed them towards suicide, and it's pretty darn hard to argue that things in the future will be different, somehow.

I think that's why people try to use emotional arguments, because they are so much easier. It's easier to try to guilt someone into living, to call them selfish and/or cowardly, if simply because a philosophical debate on the meaning of life doesn't really have a winning answer.

 

[shanshan310]

I dealt with depression in middle school because I was incessantly bullied and had no friends. What kept me alive was my parents. Also please with the "you're being judgmental of other people being judgmental" shenanigans.

What I'm saying is that I don't see it as being an inherently judgmental thing.

 

[Lissar]

I've always hated this sentiment taken to its logical extrapolation. Who lives only for themselves and isn't either an asshole or a miserable person? Living for others is an important part of being human.

Definitely. Life is a balancing act of living for yourself and living for others. If you become unbalanced you're either a miserable asshole or a miserable doormat. Humans need other humans to survive, we just can't go it alone.

 

[Conor_Fool]

It generally comes from people completely ignorant about it. I've seen GAFers be completely ignorant about it but change their tune when properly educated.

The thing to understand is that when someone is suicidal they are not thinking rationally.

This is where I stopped reading...What an offensive and fallacious assumption. I don't even know what to type, but multiple good friends of mine growing up have lost their parents to suicide, and some can't help to think that it is selfish. The children's entire lives are affected by it, as well as relatives and friends. How is killing yourself (especially a single parent) when you have a small child to take care of not selfish?

The only argument I see to be had is when it is not selfish to kill yourself. Don't go calling people ignorant when many people, including the "properly educated," see you as the ignorant one.

 

[Devolution]

What I'm saying is that I don't see it as being an inherently judgmental thing.

How isn't it? You're assigning a label to their actions that's inherently negative.

 

[zoukka]

it's stupid, and a stupid way of looking at things. My whole thing about thinking people ending their lives are withing their right to do so has nothing to do with it "being better on the other side".

The point of that image is to flip things upside down from what people usually associate it with. To some the noose offers an escape and in the middle of a bad depression death can seem like a pleasant and calm thing.

I don't see it glorifying suicide, it's meant to make the viewer consider things from other pov.

 

[Femmeworth]

Well, suicide is the only decision you cannot regret, if we want to play with logic.

Technically you can commit suicide, be revived, and then regret it.

 

[shanshan310]

How isn't it? You're assigning a label to their actions that's inherently negative.

I don't think being selfish is inherently negative either, but like I said people can think some weird things to help deal with their own grief.

 

[JABEE]

Have you ever dealt with suicide personally? Everyone deals with it differently. In no way is 'selfish' meant as a dismissal of the problems that person may have faced. Its not meant to diminish whatever they were going through, its a way of dealing with the sudden loss. For someone who seems to be sick of 'people being judgmental', you sure seem to be doing a lot of it yourself.

I agree with you. This is how I feel. I feel the same way about people reacting to any other death. Some feel irrational guilt, some anger. There is no wrong way to mourn the loss of someone you love.