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[Amir0x]

@Amir0x

If by creative, you mean innovative, I agree, there is very little of that here. However, what's creative is the way levels are put together, where everything is balanced so that each bit feels like a unique part of the world yet it all flows seamlessly -- yes, we've seen almost everything before, but not all put together at once. It doesn't specifically rely on a new gimmick (3D is arguable, but it's not really the main focus of the gameplay itself).

I honestly don't know what you mean.

In context, it's no more 'balanced' or creative in the way it's put together than Mario Galaxy. And, from what we've seen, it looks significantly less daring and bold than those titles altogether (not to mention minus the unfortunate control limitations). It also doesn't appear to flow anymore seamlessly either... I'm not saying it doesn't flow, I'm just saying it seems very routine. Like Nintendo is checking boxes instead of breaking ground. Maybe you'd have to elaborate on what you mean by 'flow seamlessly.'

There IS a lot of variety, there's no doubt about that. Variety in the Galaxy sense in that there are plenty of worlds and they are all hopping along with different themes and environments. But it seems very much like a simplified version of the idea, the camera is too pulled in, obstacles are very rote, it doesn't seem like it ever 'takes off.' It always seem to be pulling its punches, in other words.

I very much hope it's just they're saving the best stuff for when people get their hands on it, but I hope it's not another NSMB/Wii experience where I spent 2/3rd of the game in boring infant worlds with nothing at all interesting or challenging before getting to the final 3rd which ends up being all "OH THIS IS WHERE MY MARIO WENT WOW"

 

[UncleSporky]

Typically whenever Nintendo thinks it prudent to start handholding the new gen to make them comfortable with a concept, the game that is the guinea pig in question ends up being a bottom tier title in the franchise.

Wait, really? Which games have had the "it plays itself/gives hints to get you through the hard parts" thing?

NSMB Wii, Galaxy 2, and Donkey Kong Country Returns is as much as I can remember off the top of my head. And this game will feature it next. Do you consider these bottom tier?

 

[Amir0x]

Wait, really? Which games have had the "it plays itself/gives hints to get you through the hard parts" thing?

NSMB Wii, Galaxy 2, and Donkey Kong Country Returns is as much as I can remember off the top of my head. And this game will feature it next. Do you consider these bottom tier?

I wasn't referring to Super Guide. I was referring to games where Nintendo introduces bold new concepts that don't get their fully realized form until another game or don't hit their strides at least until the very end of the title, forcing gamers who are experienced to languish in what is essentially a very long extended tutorial.

Games that are like that: NSMB 1, NSMB Wii (these games are 'old concepts' but bold in the sense of revitalizing a concept the old school is familiar with... they seem to be introducing a new generation who returned to gaming with DS or Wii to the gaming world again. In both these cases, the good stuff only came at the very end and the rest of the game was extremely boring, except in a few rare cases when the coins were hidden in an especially fun way). Another example of this is Phantom Hourglass, where it is clear Nintendo wanted to leverage the DS success with new gamers to introduce the new crowd to a Zelda which presented virtually no complications to the players advancement. In this case, we spend almost the entire game going through some of the easiest puzzles, dungeons and enemies in the series history with an embarrassingly win button-ish touch screen combat system, and the end result was the worst Zelda game since the CD-i titles.

Super Mario Galaxy would be closer to the example, not Galaxy 2 (which is clearly an example of Nintendo feeling its audience should be comfortable with the idea by now). Galaxy 1, which I love, could surely be argued that it pulled its punches until the last 3rd, creative level design aside. Certainly, it was extremely easy for most of the game, although I thought the bold direction of the game made up for it. After playing Galaxy 2, however, it has slid down my rankings considerably there's no doubt about that.

DKCR I'd consider a bottom tier game, but not for the same reason as the rest of the category - for the goddamn horrific shake to roll garbage which crippled the game and for some of the horrible worlds which were platforming antithesis (Mine cart crap world).

 

[hatchx]

Does it look like there's a lot of creativity? That's my biggest problem. it doesn't seem particularly creative at all.

Let me give you a fairly simple straightforward example. To date, what is everyone getting excited about in the latest announcements? Tanooki suit, P Wing, stuff like that. This is not 'creative.' It's old ground being unearthed to tickle the nostalgic funnybone. Most of the stuff is the same from what we've seen: simpler versions of things we've seen in Galaxy, World or 3. And with the added control and slower speed complications which really have no business being part of the mix.

What seems creative to you? For the sake of sanity, let's skip over the 3D parlor tricks when you clip the 3D on and stick to the fundamentals that are actually impacting the gameplay design. As far as I can see, there are almost no new ideas here at all.

I've read quite a bit about the title but I'd love to hear about some things which are actually new and creative, 'cause I must have missed it in that case

I don't think their plan is to tread new ground, but it is a fresh take. It's a quasi-2D/3D Mario. It has never been done.

My biggest disappointment is the level-select screen. It's as mundane and boring as it gets. Why was Mario World the only one to create an awesome map overworld? Makes the whole game way more cohesive; more of an adventure.

With that said, I'm looking forward to this Mario a hell of a lot more than I was for NSMB DS.

 

[Amir0x]

I don't think their plan is to tread new ground, but it is a fresh take. It's a quasi-2D/3D Mario. It has never been done.

How has it never been done? In Galaxy 1 and 2, we have frequent switches between 3D Mario and 2D Mario gameplay segments. Maybe I've missed some feature of 3D Land? It's a genuine question, by the way... it's possible I missed some details about the games design so far. I've seen a lot of videos and it seems very, very simplistic so far.

My biggest disappointment is the level-select screen. It's as mundane and boring as it gets. Why was Mario World the only one to create an awesome map overworld? Makes the whole game way more cohesive; more of an adventure.

With that said, I'm looking forward to this Mario a hell of a lot more than I was for NSMB DS.

Totally agree about anticipating it more than NSMB DS. Waaaay more. I don't care about the level select screen, though. I mean, I'm all about once happens once I select the level, not what happens during the inbetween as I try to quickly slam the button to try to return to gameplay

 

[MegaByte]

In context, it's no more 'balanced' or creative in the way it's put together than Mario Galaxy. And, from what we've seen, it looks significantly less daring and bold than those titles altogether (not to mention minus the unfortunate control limitations). It also doesn't appear to flow anymore seamlessly either... I'm not saying it doesn't flow, I'm just saying it seems very routine. Like Nintendo is checking boxes instead of breaking ground. Maybe you'd have to elaborate on what you mean by 'flow seamlessly.'

It's Galaxy-type design with as many throw-backs put in as possible. No more, no less. At least for the first three worlds that I've played (which I believe is all that's been shown in trailers), that unfortunately means very low difficulty. I wouldn't call it simplified as much as distilled. Levels are shorter than the 3D games but the actual amount of stuff in each level isn't really reduced.

 

[hatchx]

DKCR I'd consider a bottom tier game, but not for the same reason as the rest of the category - for the goddamn horrific shake to roll garbage which crippled the game and for some of the horrible worlds which were platforming antithesis (Mine cart crap world).

I guess four million in sales and an 87 on Metacritic is bottom-tier. Leave DKC:R out of this.

 

[Amir0x]

It's Galaxy-type design with as many throw-backs put in as possible. No more, no less. At least for the first three worlds that I've played (which I believe is all that's been shown in trailers), that unfortunately means very low difficulty. I wouldn't call it simplified as much as distilled. Levels are shorter than the 3D games but the actual amount of stuff in each level isn't really reduced.

That's what I am getting out of it. I just think that while this might be neat, what's going to hold it back is how long Nintendo stays on easy mode and how cloying the relatively slower speed and push-button-to-run gets over the long term.

We'll see. Super Mario 3D Land is the first 3DS game I fully want without any coercion of any kind, so I have high high hopes...

I guess four million in sales and an 87 on Metacritic is bottom-tier. Leave DKC:R out of this.

Game "journalism" is a joke: news at eleven. Hope I didn't burst any bubbles there, hatchx. In any case, I'll leave nothing out of it as long as it is at least tangentially related to the discussion. He brought it up, I elaborated.

 

[FreeMufasa]

if you're tired of traditional Mario, couldn't you just play one of the dozens of non-traditional platformers out there until you could stop feeling ADHD'd on on the traditional Mario formula, and this way one of the last bastions for pure platforming could remain alive and well?

Besides, games like Super Mario Galaxy and Yoshi's Island prove that there is plenty of wiggle room in the Mario universe to try new ideas platforming-wise, so I'm not sure what the line is for 'traditional'. By all accounts, Super Mario 3D Land is really quite traditional... it just has a lot of control barriers that shouldn't be there. Too slow, press button to run, kind of simplistic level design from all the videos I've seen. It's another one of those maybe in between Mario titles that Nintendo thinks is important to bridge the non-gaming crowd into the new paradigm they believe 3DS is bringing with its abysmal autostereoscopic 3D. In this case, they feel the 3D will help bridge those who are familiar with the 2D style straight forward level design with the more outlandish and complicated 3D design. I think it's evident in how restrained the world design seem in terms of difficulty. It's very simple so far. I'm sure there will be difficult parts by the end (like NSMB Wii), but most of these games are spent languishing in the glazed-eye boring "for-infants" parts and that's always a bummer for me.

Typically whenever Nintendo thinks it prudent to start handholding the new gen to make them comfortable with a concept, the game that is the guinea pig in question ends up being a bottom tier title in the franchise. I hope this is not the case here, but I can't quite pin down this game. I am excited, but I just feel like I'm not as excited as I should be.


Really the bigger problem is how boring the Mario universe is at this point. They've been abused in every genre known to mankind, and frankly it's routine and lame at this point. I'd love for them to put their big budgets and ideas into brand new characters and universes in brand new platforming titles, rather than feel obligated to once again check that box.

P.S. Mufasa is dead, time to deal with it.

I'm not really tired of the gameplay, it's what you said, the universe and lore is getting stale. In that trailer there's a bowser battle where you're running to his place and he's shooting fire balls at you. I did this in SMG1, SMG2 and there's likely something similar to it in the New SMB series. There's a lot of other stuff like that and it's just getting boring for me.

The problem is this gen, Nintendo finally figured out what the Mario audience wants. The formula has been perfected. Even with the Galaxy series, looks flashy on the outside but is still a very traditional Mario game, like the Zelda series with OOT, MM and WW. At first glance people would think MM is the traditional game but it's really WW. Once you take away the fancy stuff, you have an OOT clone. Whereas MM uses the Zelda lore and creates something that feels really different. I'd probably say the same thing about Zelda if Nintendo kept making OOTs then TPs then more OOTs.

People hate this but I want them to create a new universe, like Sunshine. The gameplay/atmpshere can stay the same but lets just have new stuff to add into the Mario family, which we can later see in future Karts/Parties. They don't need to stop the traditional games, they're great. If you look at the platformers, it was always traditional, different, traditional, different with Sunshine being the last different and NSMB DS starting the current trend of traditional mario games.

And I dealt with Mufasa's death years ago. I'm just keeping the flag high since everyones on Simbas dick now days.

 

[hatchx]

How has it never been done? In Galaxy 1 and 2, we have frequent switches between 3D Mario and 2D Mario gameplay segments. Maybe I've missed some feature of 3D Land? It's a genuine question, by the way... it's possible I missed some details about the games design so far. I've seen a lot of videos and it seems very, very simplistic so far.

Well if it looked like Galaxy 3, I think people would be a lot more excited.

I suppose you are right though, there is nothing you can pinpoint as NEW in this game, and it's sad the tanooki suit can't fly (worst tease ever in Mario).

I guess to me it just looks a lot more streamlined. Not only is it incredibly linear, but the levels are timed. There is no star collecting, just a level end-goal (which to me, means I won't need to revisit levels unless I want super coins). It is a very streamlined 3D experience, like Crash Bandicoot.

Game "journalism" is a joke: news at eleven. Hope I didn't burst any bubbles there, hatchx. In any case, I'll leave nothing out of it as long as it is at least tangentially related to the discussion. He brought it up, I elaborated.

I just friggin' love DKC:R is all. Shake or no shake.

 

[Amir0x]

I'm not really tired of the gameplay, it's what you said, the universe and lore is getting stale. In that trailer there's a bowser battle where you're running to his place and he's shooting fire balls at you. I did this in SMG1, SMG2 and there's likely something similar to it in the New SMB series. There's a lot of other stuff like that and it's just getting boring for me.

The problem is this gen, Nintendo finally figured out what the Mario audience wants. The formula has been perfected. Even with the Galaxy series, looks flashy on the outside but is still a very traditional Mario game, like the Zelda series with OOT, MM and WW. At first glance people would think MM is the traditional game but it's really WW. Once you take away the fancy stuff, you have an OOT clone. Whereas MM uses the Zelda lore and creates something that feels really different. I'd probably say the same thing about Zelda if Nintendo kept making OOTs then TPs then more OOTs.

People hate this but I want them to create a new universe, like Sunshine. The gameplay/atmpshere can stay the same but lets just have new stuff to add into the Mario family, which we can later see in future Karts/Parties. They don't need to stop the traditional games, they're great. If you look at the platformers, it was always traditional, different, traditional, different with Sunshine being the last different and NSMB DS starting the current trend of traditional mario games.

I'd love for them to go all new like Galaxy 1 or Sunshine again. But I think that's difficult enough as long as they feel compelled to always have Mario in the game.

I'd like them to utilize similar budgets and similar talent to make a brand new platforming universe, so we can completely break free and see what these guys come up with when they're completely unrestricted in design. Oh, the shit I'm sure they'd come up with *swoon*

And I dealt with Mufasa's death years ago. I'm just keeping the flag high since everyones on Simbas dick now days.

What about Nala? Why everybody forget about Nala? Little bitch practically convinced Simba to break out and go to the Elephant Graveyard. Why does everybody have sympathy for her? Goddamn.

Well if it looked like Galaxy 3, I think people would be a lot more excited.

I suppose you are right though, there is nothing you can pinpoint as NEW in this game, and it's sad the tanooki suit can't fly (worst tease ever in Mario).

I guess to me it just looks a lot more streamlined. Not only is it incredibly linear, but the levels are timed. There is no star collecting, just a level end-goal (which to me, means I won't need to revisit levels unless I want super coins). It is a very streamlined 3D experience, like Crash Bandicoot.

I agree, streamline is a good word for it. I just think they should speed it up in that case. In fact, with the whole timer thing, I think speed running should be the emphasis. And so I just wish that damned Mario could move his chubby ass a bit more

 

[hatchx]

I agree, streamline is a good word for it. I just think they should speed it up in that case. In fact, with the whole timer thing, I think speed running should be the emphasis. And so I just wish that damned Mario could move his chubby ass a bit more

Miyamoto did say the first 8 worlds would be pretty easy, but after that it gets very hard. Then he laughed.

I can only hope that means there is an additional 8 worlds of awesome hardcore challenge, rather than just a world 9.

 

[MegaByte]

I sure hope so, since there seem to be only 5 levels in each world (my biggest concern right now).

 

[thezerofire]

Am I the only one who thinks the running looks pretty bad?

 

[Amir0x]

Miyamoto did say the first 8 worlds would be pretty easy, but after that it gets very hard. Then he laughed.

I can only hope that means there is an additional 8 worlds of awesome hardcore challenge, rather than just a world 9.

Can I read that interview?

I just think Mario 3D Land is going to be a situation where the FIRST Mario 3D Land is sort of rudimentary in approach, and the second one allows Nintendo to go really wild and that'd probably be the one that everyone thinks is a classic.

 

[UncleSporky]

Am I the only one who thinks the running looks pretty bad?

As in animation? Speed? What?

For people complaining about the speed, did any of you see the segment at 0:25 in the latest trailer? It's obvious that the videos aren't showcasing "pro play" but just some of the different features and worlds.

Did past Mario trailers always show badass extreme speed by comparison? I haven't checked, I'm prepared to be wrong.

 

[Myansie]

I played it at E3 and the controls were fine. The only thing I couldn't do was the turn jump, which I use all the time in other 3D Marios. Straight away the game felt completely different. To look at I can't argue that it's innovative, although the 3D is amazing, watching the clips on the 3DS itself adds so much. When you actually play the game it does feel very different. The main thing at the moment is people are interpreting those differences, the slower movement and eight way direction, as negatives rather than a genuine change to the game play. It felt appropriate to the platform.

I only played it for 10 min and really liked it what I saw. It was my star of the show, but then I am a massive Mario fan and of 3D.

 

[Tathanen]

I think it's sorta interesting, watching the videos, to see scenes that are just so obviously designed around 3D. Like, for example, jumping from platform to platform with the camera angled almost straight down, and it's very difficult to actually estimate where the platforms are in relation to Mario, and each other. I've seen that perspective used a few times, along with one where the camera is very flat to the ground, instead of more isometric, and you're expected to run "into" the screen. These are two camera angles traditional polygonal games would steer clear of, because they just flat-out make it difficult to orient yourself. The 3D, however, as I have noticed in the 3D trailers, makes them immediately accessible.

I think this is really the way to think about how 3D "enhances" the game, and makes it more playable. It's not that your traditional camera angles that no one had any problem with in the first place are becoming more playable, it's that the presence of the 3D makes angles that developers would typically steer CLEAR of now actually usable. And because of them, levels with more vertical design are now feasible, and those with significant horizontal depth can also be explored.

Amir0x, you've mentioned how it's laughable to think you'd have trouble playing with the 3D off, and if it was just a Mario game like Galaxy and its ilk, I'd absolutely agree with you. But it really looks like we're getting more planar levels built around traditionally awkward camera angles that the 3D will make more accessible. I wouldn't be surprised if you find those levels a bit irritating in 2D.

 

[thezerofire]

As in animation? Speed? What?

For people complaining about the speed, did any of you see the segment at 0:25 in the latest trailer? It's obvious that the videos aren't showcasing "pro play" but just some of the different features and worlds.

Did past Mario trailers always show badass extreme speed by comparison? I haven't checked, I'm prepared to be wrong.

The steps just seem really really short and fast for how far he's actually moving

 

[Anasui Kishibe]

So we've come to the point where this is either going to be a bad game or a GAF crow-eating fest.

I've eaten enough crow with DA2

Calling out for this one, but I know I will enjoy the hell out of it

 

[AniHawk]

Can I read that interview?

I just think Mario 3D Land is going to be a situation where the FIRST Mario 3D Land is sort of rudimentary in approach, and the second one allows Nintendo to go really wild and that'd probably be the one that everyone thinks is a classic.

it'll probably help that the sequel will have analog controls.

 

[disco]

They should've put Tatanga as the bad guy in this, would've made it a tiny tiny tiny bit more fresh.

 

[Gravijah]

They should've put Tatanga as the bad guy in this, would've made it a tiny tiny tiny bit more fresh.

she could be pretty mean in boy meets world so yeah i agree.

 

[Myansie]

I think this is really the way to think about how 3D "enhances" the game, and makes it more playable. It's not that your traditional camera angles that no one had any problem with in the first place are becoming more playable, it's that the presence of the 3D makes angles that developers would typically steer CLEAR of now actually usable. And because of them, levels with more vertical design are now feasible, and those with significant horizontal depth can also be explored.

Nice post, that's very true. The bit where he falls down on a column of coins and the camera is almost vertical comes to mind. You've lost your shadow and the camera's not quite vertical enough to know when you're straight above. 3D on I can get those coins easily, the 3D turned off it's an awkward mash.

 

[Bullza2o]

Wow great videos! Cannot wait!

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

she could be pretty mean in boy meets world so yeah i agree.

I honestly was never super into her. There's just something. I don't know what it is.

 

[SuperAngelo64]

Hate the music. This is the first Mario 'main theme' I don't like.

 

[Dr.Hadji]

Its creative because I see level layouts that I've never seen before because the developers don't have to shy away from certain perspectives thanks to the 3d. And the parts you call Galaxy, Bros3, World light I call interesting twists to an old conventions, accenting a different wrinkle thanks to the new design philosophy of 3d Land.

Oh and innovation is a very simple thing. Have I played a Mario like this before. No? Then its innovative. Nuff said.

 

[Josh7289]

Hate the music. This is the first Mario 'main theme' I don't like.

Disagree wholeheartedly. I was actually just thinking how nice it is.

 

[WillyFive]

Hate the music. This is the first Mario 'main theme' I don't like.

No way. That's probably nostalgia getting in your way of enjoying it, just as it happened for many with the NSMB music.

 

[SuperAngelo64]

No way. That's probably nostalgia getting in your way of enjoying it, just as it happened for many with the NSMB music.

On the contrary, the NSMB main theme is probably my favorite Mario series main theme.

 

[StickSoldier]

Everytime I see more of this game, the harder it is to wait for the release date. This game is gonna be awesommmeeeee!

 

[MegaByte]

I haven't cared for the SMB3DL theme or the NSMB ones -- I think they're too slow and not as interesting melodically as the old ones. But damn if they still don't get stuck in your head.

 

[Salsa]

yet another new trailer (posted yet?)

http://youtu.be/8IqnPwvfL30

best one IMO

 

[WillyFive]

yet another new trailer (posted yet?)

http://youtu.be/8IqnPwvfL30

best one IMO

First confirmation of SM3DL having more than one music track.

 

[EloquentM]

yet another new trailer (posted yet?)

http://youtu.be/8IqnPwvfL30

best one IMO

yeah its been poosted

 

[Electivirus]

yet another new trailer (posted yet?)

http://youtu.be/8IqnPwvfL30

best one IMO

Two in one day? Also, looking better every time I see it.

First confirmation of SM3DL having more than one music track.

I do wish they'd find something else to remix besides World 1-1 for once...

 

[Azure Dream]

It's on the eShop too, it says.

I'm not a fan of the audio, not just the music, but that was definitely not a pleasant remix. Toads still use that same awful "Hey!" sample too, something like a decade later.

 

[Salsa]

I really love the original jazzy track though

 

[WillyFive]

The title screen from NSBWii is modern classic Mario music. Shame it was used so little.

 

[StreetsAhead]

It's on the eShop too, it says.

I'm not a fan of the audio, not just the music, but that was definitely not a pleasant remix. Toads still use that same awful "Hey!" sample too, something like a decade later.

They've only just updated the renders that been using for promotional material ... Give them time

 

[Link Man]

So how about that female Boom-Boom?

Boomer-Anne?

 

[Jaded Alyx]

yet another new trailer (posted yet?)

http://youtu.be/8IqnPwvfL30

best one IMO

You're on a roll with the oldness today!

 

[VICTORsaurio]

is it actually on the eShop?

 

[Mista Koo]

Wait, is Luigi in this game?

Not what I signed up for. Preorder cancelled.

Sonic's Mario's shitty awesome friends brothers?

The title screen from NSBWii is modern classic Mario music. Shame it was used so little.

Indeed, I really liked it. The credits version is awesome too.

 

[watershed]

is it actually on the eShop?

Super Mario 3D Land does have a software page in the eshop. It has 3 screenshots, 1 new trailer, and a description of the game.

 

[DragonGirl]

DKCR I'd consider a bottom tier game, but not for the same reason as the rest of the category - for the goddamn horrific shake to roll garbage which crippled the game and for some of the horrible worlds which were platforming antithesis (Mine cart crap world).

I just have to say, I don't see how people had trouble with shake to roll. I never once had a problem with it. I always rolled when I wanted to, never died from a failed roll or an unwanted roll and I collected everything in this game and did the extra worlds. I really don't understand the issue. Mine carts were hard as hell and induced much screaming, but they were awesome, same for rocket barrel. Not really a fan of Donkey Kong in general, either.

Mario3Ds looks good. Not as experimental as the Galaxy games but reminds me of what a direct sequel to Mario64 might look like.

 

[_Alkaline_]

Toads still use that same awful "Hey!" sample too, something like a decade later.

You shut your damn mouth.

 

[dwu8991]

I just have to say, I don't see how people had trouble with shake to roll. I never once had a problem with it. I always rolled when I wanted to, never died from a failed roll or an unwanted roll and I collected everything in this game and did the extra worlds. I really don't understand the issue. Mine carts were hard as hell and induced much screaming, but they were awesome, same for rocket barrel. Not really a fan of Donkey Kong in general, either.

Mario3Ds looks good. Not as experimental as the Galaxy games but reminds me of what a direct sequel to Mario64 might look like.

Well if you like playing platform games Burnout style, then yes the shake to roll can be a problem. For those that play the game at a sedate pace, then its fine.

 

[_Alkaline_]

Well if you like playing platform games Burnout style, then yes the shake to roll can be a problem. For those that play the game at a sedate pace, then its fine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoBrVWqYAro

Done with the remote+nunchuk combo. All of his are.

Not quite a 'sedate' pace, I would say.